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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 16, 2019 - 11:02am PT
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So here's the situation. Bear with me the long explanation.
The start of every year I'm embroiled in full time stained glass production. There's nasty chemicals ( flux and sal ammoniac) involved and after several decades- I have chronic health issues and I just can't breath this crap any longer. Current "safety" procedures involved are an oven hood installed vertically into the window to draw all the air out of the room which actually works OK when I'm not soldering full time, gloves and occasionally a respirator.
The downfall a) the fan takes a few minutes to draw the air- when I get to all-day mass-production my respiratory system still gets trashed . b) running the thing on high is super loud and c) most of the work is done in the winter - which means Im working in a parka freezing my ass off all day since I can't heat the room.
Respirators have always been problematic for several reasons: a) the acid gas filters last (1) 8- hour day and cost $20 a pop. b)the respirator pulls down on my and neck all day giving me headaches and back pain. c) the mask in contact with my skin gives me a rash. d) full face respirators have issues with visibility- the face plate gets messed up quickly and I can't see what I'm doing .
For a couple of years I've been looking into installing a self- contained ( doesn't need to vent to the exterior), low noise, industrial grade filtration system in my studio. Its an expensive investment but I finally pulled the trigger. My biggest question to several companies was- "how long do the filters last?" No one could actually answer that question without extensive testing on my work-space but the consensus seemed to be that a ($300) filter should last 150-200 hours. I was planning on replacing filters every 2 months. The filter is formulated for the two chemicals I'm dealing with. BTW
Well- the first set lasted... only 40 hours before they were done. One week. Meh . I'm looking at $1000-1200+ a month rather than the $150/ month I budgeted on. I complained to the company and threatened to send the whole thing back. - which would cost a fortune. They are sending a new more heavy-duty filter (costs more of course) for free - but I have a feeling this is still going to be cost prohibitive to maintain.
My question is: I'm handy- is there a way to make my own filters?
The two chemicals I need to neutralize are :
Ammonium Chloride NH4 Cl and
Zinc Chloride ZnCl2
The key with acid glass filters is evidently " activated carbon impregnated with [the correct] acid neutralizing elements.". Is there a way to obtain sheets of activated carbon? What substances are necessary to neutralize my bogies? Are these items even obtainable ... and how hard is it to create an " impregnated" sheet ? I've done a bunch of googling around online with surprisingly minimal results.. maybe just too complicated for the average Joe to try to fabricate?
If I can't work something out I'll have to convert back to the external venting which kinda sucks.
Your thoughts?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 16, 2019 - 11:43am PT
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No idea on making reliable filtration media although I'd have to bet it's not something you could do easily.
Can you work in a large fume hood that's externally vented? I mean a real lab table setup with an integrated hood, not your stove-hood-in-the-window. How big are the pieces you work on? Proper lab hood ventilation design is tricky but it's done every day if you can find a competent industrial engineer around you. I used to work with a guy who did only that for his whole career. I got to listen to him ramble for days about it... :)
Filters will always fail and subject you to some exposure whereas a proper hood, if possible, could be a much safer alternative. There are ways to reclaim some heat as well from the exhaust if the flow needs to be high enough.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Apr 16, 2019 - 01:06pm PT
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One idea, but this is still an exhaust-only approach (vs neutralizing the fumes with a recirc system). Have you considered a downdraft table (vs one that draws vapor upward and out)? I don't know enough about the vapor pressure of ammonium or zinc chloride to assert this will work, but it's at least worth considering. This is what I did for my wife's art studio and we also used an externally-mounted in-line fan (so noise inside is reduced). I don't know how far you live from your neighbors, though, and those fumes do end up somewhere...
You could also consider installing a DIY (or almost DIY) ductless heat pump system for the studio. I think there now is a viable 120 vac system on the market. That would take some time to pay for itself but would be a much more efficient way to heat (and cool) that space.
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Apr 16, 2019 - 01:34pm PT
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Wow, this is a real pickle. These vapors and fumes are assaulting both your skin and your respiratory system, so I am wondering about a biohazard isolation suit. I think this is something you could McGyver yourself by getting a one-piece motorcycle rain suit. A tyvek one-piece suit can be had for as little as 8 bucks, although I don't know how tyvek works with these particular vapors. That is certainly something you could find out about from an online search. An Ansell microchem suit would have everything you need for about 140 bucks, including the hood. You could kluge together your own supplied air system with an air compressor and a long vacuum cleaner hose. Use this with the hood you currently have and I think it would increase your protection plus keep you warmer in the winter, because with an effective hood you are not going to be able to keep your work space real warm.
Just my spitballing here, but I truly hope you can get this figured out.
Be well there, Maid, and do take care of yourself.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 16, 2019 - 01:40pm PT
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Yer in a pickle. The filters may be toxic waste after they are exhausted. Dumping them in the trash is probably against environmental restrictions.
Ammonia and chlorides are pretty simple, but the zinc is a heavy metal and disposal is likely heavily regulated. Suggest an search on the EPA website.
I'm not familiar with dealing with these compounds in fumes, but have experience with them as ions in solution (water).
As said upthread, to remove (you can't neutralize them) and dispose of the waste is a potential nightmare.
Do you have any idea of the concentration of these ions/compounds in the fumes? That would be the place to start before you can figure out the best path forward.
If you have been breathing zinc as part of your art, you really need to get medical help. If I understand correctly. the zinc in fumes would be a particulate, not gaseous. Similar to cigarette smoke.
http://numinor.com/files/New%20Logo-MSDS%20Zinc-dust2010(1).pdf
edit: I've sent out an email to someone that knows more than I. I just know enough to be dangerous. I'll post up any feedback.
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clarkolator
climber
Flatlands of Yolo
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Apr 16, 2019 - 03:27pm PT
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I'm a chemist. Macgyvering and doing chemistry do not belong in the same Venn diagram.
My first reaction is that you need an enclosed negative pressure fume hood that vents to the outside.
My second reaction is to find out what you are being exposed to. This OSHA document looks like a start:
https://www.osha.gov/dts/sltc/methods/inorganic/id206arl3560icp/id206arl3560icp.html
Some of these contaminants are pretty serious.
Of course, your fume hood will be venting into other people's air, so follow all federal, state, and local regs.
The good news is that I have a friend who did it in his art studio, so it is possible.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:42pm PT
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hey there, say... bump, for justthemaid...
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cragnshag
Social climber
Gilroy
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Apr 16, 2019 - 10:34pm PT
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If you are serious about eliminating your chemical exposure in the shop, I wouldn't mess around with filters. If you don't mind looking like a beekeeper/alien, get a forced air positive pressure mask/suit. You run a long hose to the outside air handling unit which sends clean outside air into your mask/ suit.
We use this system for our sandblasting operation to protect our guys from silica dust and in our spray foam operation because of some really nasty fumes.
You always get clean air because it's coming from outside the shop. You should still vent the shop, but make sure your air intake unit is far away from the vent exhaust location.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2019 - 07:28am PT
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A little more background before anyone goes full alarmist- I stopped doing this full time a decade ago because of the health risks. I currently do only one (1) show a year that takes 6 months of preparation (Jan-June) then I work a different job the rest of the year. the pieces are all small- usually under 10".
@ Fear an Others: I'm considering just modifying the new unit to be able to swap back and forth venting externally (when it's warm out) and through the filters only if it's it's cold. The new unit has a bendable hose that can be aimed at a specific are and is much more efficient than the big oven-fan or ceiling hood setup.
@ Bob- a downdraft tables wont' work in this application. I need to work on a solid tempered glass surface and the table still has to vent somewhere.
@ Nick and Crag- an isolation suit would be totally impractical
@ John and Clark- I have checked EPA and OSHA websites. There's no way to know the concentration of the chemicals without some really expensive testing (that isn't going to happen). Yup- zinc bad- that's why I'm trying to filter it.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 17, 2019 - 09:00am PT
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Couple thoughts
Don't try making your own filters. It's basically rocket science that needs to be performed in a controlled factory environment.
Look into a Heat Recovery Ventilator. It removes heat from exhaust and transfers it to the intake. Pay attention to efficiency and CFM.
A less expensive pre-filter will extend the life of a more expensive chemical filter. You can get pretty low particle size HVAC filters from Home Depot. You could then literally duct tape the thing in front of the chemical filter.
Jacking up your heat and buying the above items seems cheaper than your budget for chemical filters.
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clifff
Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
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Apr 17, 2019 - 09:01am PT
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Your soldering presents a point source of pollution. By concentrating the exhaust suction as close as possible to the work you can whisk away the offending gases with minimal air flow. A flexible 2 inch vacuum hose with a cone on the end that you can adjust close to your work could work well. Shape the cone to contain the gases as much as possible while leaving room to work.
A good wood burning stove right next to you can keep you warm even if the temps in your house are low. Gather plenty of wood for free in the national forest.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Apr 17, 2019 - 10:08am PT
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The downdraft table we built doesn't have a perforated work surface. The main work surface is about 3" above a 'gutter' that runs around its perimeter and so the exhaust happens at the edge.
It's easy to get a variable speed controller for a good quality in-line fan that fits in a 6-8" diameter duct.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:54pm PT
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This is a small workstation used by one person to solder common materials producing slightly hazardous fumes. She's not working with Ebola.
Don't overthink it... vent a real lab chemical hood to the outside and call it a day. Some have variable fans that you can adjust simply to suit changing conditions. Messing with filters seems like the wrong way to go.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Apr 17, 2019 - 05:53pm PT
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Complete pseudoscience, but I've heard that welders who have to work with galvanized metal (zinc) will drink milk to prevent side effects from the fumes. Maybe Google can provide some real data about the risks.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Apr 17, 2019 - 08:34pm PT
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I don’t know what you are soldering ( lead?, copper? Tin?)
You might look into other fluxes besides sal amoniac and zinc chloride.
Sodium Borate (borax) or boric acid based fluxes are one type. you can even buy borax in the store and “cook “ it to drive off the water.
Jewelers who spend their lives leaning over their work use it. So do blacksmiths.
Handy flux is one brand.
Antiborax#2 is another.
It’s corrosive and has its own breathing issues , but heavy metals isn’t one of them. Any products can be neutralized with baking soda.
boron even used in treatment for heavy metal poisoning
And you won’t have ant problems.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Apr 17, 2019 - 09:48pm PT
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Complete pseudoscience, but I've heard that welders who have to work with galvanized metal (zinc) will drink milk to prevent side effects from the fumes. Maybe Google can provide some real data about the risks.
None of the union welders I ever hired would weld zinc coatings. They tell you they’ll be back when you grind it off.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 18, 2019 - 06:35am PT
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Feedback:
Hi John
He didnt mention if he is using the old fashioned tin lead solder or one of the “new” so called safer solders. It might not matter as the newer solders contain antimony and other elements that are probably just as unhealthful.
Ammonia is very alkaline, where as the fumes from the solder are probably acidic
Not sure any scrubber will make the air totally safe and of course with multiple contaminants they will likely exhaust quickly.
Meanwhile the people making impregnated filters dont share their techniques. If they go with carbon they might consider a tank with granular carbon. Its slower so you need more but it is MUCH cheaper so overall it is probably more cost effective
Consider an external air supply and mask. This is likely cheaper than anything else
Sorry for the delay and short answer, we are in the Caribbean on a cruise and the shipboard internet is below horrible
Peter
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 06:39am PT
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Consider an external air supply and mask. This is likely cheaper than anything else
That's what I would suggest.
Welders who weld in confined spaces use this method.
If you don't take care breathing this stuff somewhere down the line in time you won't be recognizing Eric anymore :-)
Your stain glass work is beautiful, keep up the good work .....
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2019 - 07:33am PT
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Can't work in a full mask- I've tried it several times over the years. There's major visibility issues and they just are a total PIA in real life.
@ Winemaker- I'll look into that. Maybe just finding a cheaper source for filters is the solution. Not having a lot of luck Googling for it though.
Fear: This is a small workstation used by one person to solder common materials producing slightly hazardous fumes. She's not working with Ebola.
Lol^^^ ''tis true :)
Lorenzo: don't know what you are soldering ( lead?, copper? Tin?)
Yes- yes and yes. 60/40 lead/ tin solder on top of copper and brass. No actual brazing. Just a very hot set of soldering irons sculpting a lot of solder.
I've been at this about 30 years at this point- I've run the gamut of fluxes and solders. The technique I'm using doesn't work with substitutes. The flux can't be too watery or thick/pasty The one I use is a liquid gel that actually has WAY less smoke and splatter than anything else I've ever used and cleans up very easily.
Edit- note on sal ammoinac. I use this for re- tinning/cleaning iron tips. Detailed decorative soldering requires a flawlessly clean iron tip. There's a number of ways to do this but they are all smoky and toxic.
A note on lead-free solder for anyone freaked about lead- "safe" solder totally blows. Looks like sh#t. Solders like sh#t. And costs 4x as much to boot. ( I use 80 lbs a year so it's an issue) I get tested for lead levels yearly. ( no issues there) .
@ Jlp- I'll look into heat recovery stuff. The new system has a heavy-duty HEPA filter that is still fine- it's the acid gas filters that burn out quickly.
@cliff: that's pretty much what I have now- flexible hose attached to a strong suction- it works great- the issue is how to vent what's coming out of the fan.
Like I said- I'm thinking about just modifying this thing to vent externally when the temps are warmer.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:43am PT
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A note on lead-free solder for anyone freaked about lead- "safe" solder totally blows.
100% agree.
I do a lot soldering on electrical connections daily.
And I once tried lead-free and immediately ruled it out for my use.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:44am PT
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A note on lead-free solder for anyone freaked about lead- "safe" solder totally blows. Looks like sh#t. Solders like sh#t.
Thank you for that reality check... The fear of lead is highly overblown, esp for what you're doing which nobody will ever be chewing on or drinking from....
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:22pm PT
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The two chemicals I need to neutralize are :
Ammonium Chloride NH4 Cl and
Zinc Chloride ZnCl2
Neither of those chemicals needs "neutralizing" in the chemical sense. Although they might decompose to form acidic products, their danger isn't simple acidity. In solution they have a pH of about 5, which while acidic, is barely lower than pure water that has sat for a few hours and absorbed Carbon Dioxide. With boiling points of 520C and 732C respectively, fumes may not even have condensed back to suspended liquid mist or solid when entering a particle filer, and gas will pass through particle filters. Google "Lab snorkel" for a possible solution that keeps fumes away from you. This should be much less expensive than any filtration system.
TE
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:57am PT
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fear:
This is a small workstation used by one person to solder common materials producing slightly hazardous fumes. She's not working with Ebola.
Don't overthink it... vent a real lab chemical hood to the outside and call it a day. Some have variable fans that you can adjust simply to suit changing conditions. Messing with filters seems like the wrong way to go. +++
I agree with fear.
Instead of "Oven hood" get real "Chemical lab hood".
The key is to have powerful enough fan that can ensure fast enough flow of air into the hood.
Note: Your heating bills would go significantly up. There is no way around.
Most chemists use this setup and only tiny minority uses more complex stuff.
If simple hood doesn't work, supplement it with a local exhaust sucking fumes directly from your soldering area.
I do not recall seeing absorbing filters used in real lab environment.
Full isolation seems like an overkill to me.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2019 - 08:21am PT
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The new system is actually a "snorkel" -type as Trad Eddie recommends. The fan/suction works awesome - the issue (again) is what to do about the air coming out the other end. I'm guessing i'll probably going to have to give up on working in a heated space most of the time. Had a long conversation with one of the posters here about just making the space retain heat better via insulation and better heating systems.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 19, 2019 - 11:18am PT
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A 6K vent-free propane heater 5’ away should keep you toasty (at least on one side 😊)
for a few bucks per day.
ProCom Blue Flame is what you want.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:36pm PT
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Hey, Winemaker - she is off hanging a few hundred moth pheromone confusion traps in apple trees today, but to this:
Have you thought of something like a glove box?
The manual dexterity required to do her level of artistry would not work with this set-up.
That fume hood is sweet, but the industrial station is not gonna fly - she needs venting with free movement in an open space with TV and cats...
I really like the perimeter down-draft idea. Seems like that with a remote vaccuum would be aces.
Also curious about heat reclamation...
Great ideas everyone, thanks!
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:41pm PT
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The manual dexterity required to do her level of artistry would not work with this set-up.
I understood that; what I was thinking was simply having an elastic sleeve around the upper arm (or somewhere) making it easy to insert arms and then use bare hands, not gloves, for the work.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:21pm PT
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One other thought: Would a blower across the work towards the vent help, give the fumes a little push? I did production wood working as a kid, and my dad built a system to both blow AND suck. Heh. For a tech OT thread, this has been surprisingly funny.
BAd
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