NOTRE DAME DE PARIS IS BURNING

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Messages 1 - 45 of total 45 in this topic
nutstory

Trad climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 15, 2019 - 11:03am PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:05am PT
Dood, this is political, yer gonna get banned.
nutstory

Trad climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2019 - 11:11am PT
The spire of Notre-Dame de Paris does not exist anymore. It has just fallen down...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:26am PT
This is horrible. It doesn't matter if one is religious, or supports Catholic Church, this is a great loss.

Of course from my perspective the almost certain destruction of the Great Organ is deeply saddening. Built in about 1860, it is (or was) one of the finest examples of the large symphonic organs of it's time. To hear Olivier Latry play a recital on it was on my bucket list.

This is worth a listen. His tempo is slow, and melancholy, appropriate today. The sound quality leaves a lot to be desired, but screw that.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:31am PT
I didn’t even think of the organ. I have heard it and it was incredible.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:33am PT

Unreal....
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:33am PT
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6921425/ISIS-plans-copy-Paris-Bataclan-massacre-swathe-fresh-attacks-Europe.html

Shocking documents detailing a wave of ISIS attacks across Europe have been discovered on a hard drive dropped by members of the terror group as they fled their last stronghold in Syria earlier this year.

The chilling plans are believed to be inspired by the terrorist attack in Paris four years ago, when ISIS killers stormed the Bataclan concert hall and other areas of the city and killed 130 people.

Two years later, they committed another atrocity in Manhattan where jihadis crashed into cyclists and runners in the city, killing eight.

ISIS are now planning to repeat this horrific attacks in a new wave of atrocities across Europe, including an attack on a high-speed train network in Germany and on an oil pipeline in Switzerland.

Is the Notre Dame fire part of this plan?
nutstory

Trad climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2019 - 11:35am PT
850 years old!
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:39am PT
Yowza!


YES IT IS A (GASP), A MOMENT OF NEXUS; A MOMENT WHEN RELIGIOUS & CULTURAL LOSS ARE AT THE SAME TIME EQUAL IN THE TRAGEDY OF THE EVENT

Ksolem, said it so well

This is horrible. It doesn't matter if one is religious, or supports Catholic Church, this is a great loss.

Of course from my perspective,
the almost certain destruction of the Great Organ is deeply saddening.

Built in about 1860, it is (or was) one of the finest examples of the large symphonic organs of it's time.

To hear Olivier Latry play a recital on it was on my bucket list.

This is worth a listen.

His tempo is slow, and melancholy,
appropriate today.

& Ksolem,
Thank You,
I have that playing on the desktop.
with the live footage muted
Also, I have no idea Why I rubbed you the wrong way but please accept my apologies...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:43am PT
Lemme get this straight. You undertake a massive reno project on one of the world’s cultural icons but you’re too short-sighted to install a massive temporary fire suppression system with guards 24/7? Now you’ve really got yerselves a reno proj!

FYI, a halon suppression system might cost $10-20 million.
Re-building that roof will be an easy $500 million. Easy.
Nah, prolly a billion.
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:44am PT
Such a bummer...

Glad I got to see it.

I'm watching and hoping the two towers on the west facade don't burn down next.

This is a tragic loss...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:55am PT
The stone will likely stand. The rest...

Also, I have no idea Why I rubbed you the wrong way but please accept my apologies...

I'm not sure what you're talking about. If I said something untoward I'm sorry about that... I dunno, maybe we both misunderstood something. Cheers.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 15, 2019 - 12:09pm PT
What a full-blown tragedy! One the most beautiful of the Gothic cathedrals irreparably damaged including the contents. I visited it as a child full of wonder at such a storied place. Damn...
Edit- I hope that you are right Wolfo.
seano

Mountain climber
none
Apr 15, 2019 - 12:36pm PT
Ksolem,

I thought of the building, but not the organ. That "last play" of some amazing Bach is inspiring and tragic.
Wolfo

Mountain climber
Germany
Apr 15, 2019 - 12:43pm PT
Most of the big european cathedrals burned down several times in the past, that's why vaults became standart in the 11/12th century.
The roof comes down and the vaults protect the interior of the church.
We'll see, maybe it works for the Notre Dame, as many times before...
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
Apr 15, 2019 - 12:54pm PT
Muslim terrorists did it.

Nope....

It was that damn hunchback.
A Essex

climber
Apr 15, 2019 - 01:02pm PT
god's punishment for the Pedophiles????
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
Apr 15, 2019 - 02:24pm PT
It appears the towers are safe....
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 15, 2019 - 04:13pm PT
The nave and the Great Organ of Notre Dame de Paris:


Image is from Wikipedia Commons, and free use is granted to copy, distribute, and transmit the work with proper attribution as follows:

Pierre-Yves Beaudouin / Wikimedia Commons / CC BY-SA 3.0

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2019 - 04:34pm PT
Just heard that Macron declared
"The worst has been avoided."

Is he on crack or smack?
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Apr 15, 2019 - 04:46pm PT
Here's a link to the Cathedral's Twitter feed with an encouraging photo of the interior of the Cathedral after the fire. Unfortunately, they say that some more interior structures might still collapse, but let's hope they stay up.

https://twitter.com/CathedraleNotre/status/1117920118686851072
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Apr 15, 2019 - 07:18pm PT
Ditto on Kris and Steve. What a horrible tragedy. As a lover of old architecture and professional antique stained glass restorer- I've been sad all day about it. Never got to see it in person. Definitely one of the loveliest of the European Gothic cathedrals. A lot of those big cathedrals burned during the war and were rebuilt. I hope they can do the same here. There's just not a lot of qualified craftspeople left alive these days.

Thanks for linking the organ music. I attended a couple performances in a cathedral in Spain. Nothing like it. The pipes are lead so minimal heat turns them into a slag heap. Meh.

PS: the Twitter feed is dead^^^
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2019 - 07:31pm PT
France still has plenty of artisanes. They have excellent wooden shipwrights.
They will get it re-built, but it won’t be the same. In the meantime go hear the Strasbourg,
Westminster, or Winchester organs.
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 15, 2019 - 07:33pm PT
I’m kind of surprised the resident genius of everything (Reilly) didn’t comment on this. Although since he is just another Cheeto Jesus ball cupper, I guess I’m not surprised.


Trump tweets to use “flying water tankers” to put out the fire...

Resident experts say...

“If you hit that with tons of water from above, that’s going to collapse the entire structure and make the situation worse,” McPartland said. “If you miss, you might hit civilians in the street.”

At 8 lbs a gallon.... what a moron.
Keep cupping Reilly!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:01pm PT
Hey, braj, when you release water from an air tanker it doesn’t hit the ground en masse. In fact, a big problem is that it dissipates and evaporates. Go take a physics class or just watch some fire drops. And, BTW, water weighs 8.34 pounds/gallon.

Secondly, I can almost guarantee the French have no helos capable of carrying more than 200 gallons so that ain’t exactly gonna bring the house down, is it? And since they wouldn’t be hovering, unless they were hell bent on getting into a vortex ring state and becoming one with the inferno, a safe maneuvering speed would disperse those 200 gallons nicely, especially if they released it in a steady rate.

Lemme know what else ya wanna learn about. I’m here for you.
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:08pm PT
Apoligista extrodinare right there.

If “flying water tankers” were a genius idea, then why did the French not utilize that method? Mobilization time, or the evaporation of the “200 gallons” per load would equal net zero water delivered. Or they just weren’t smart enough to figure it out? Sh#t, why didn’t they just call Reilly for advice?
Obviously trump was talking about wildland firefighting loads from an airplane, not a helicopter. And obviously, distribution would it be nearly accurate enough to avoid collateral damage. Get real. Braj.
One of my best friends is head of the wildland fire fighters here in Alaska. We just had an hour long discussion why this wouldn’t work for the Notre Dame Fire. But please, you’re the expert. Tell us more.
throwpie

Trad climber
Berkeley
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:15pm PT
Flammable limestone?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thisisinsider.com/heres-what-led-to-the-collapse-of-the-notre-dame-cathedral-2019-4
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Apr 15, 2019 - 09:16pm PT
Not flammable, but breaks down at 925° C into calcium oxide and co2

Calcium oxide is Quicklime - basically plaster.


https://www.lhoist.com/sites/lhoist/files/lna_msds_limestone_2012-4.pdf
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
Apr 15, 2019 - 10:35pm PT
Netahanzayo inside job
nutstory

Trad climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2019 - 12:30am PT
Inside Notre-Dame de Paris at Christmas 2018. (At the time, if I could imagine such a tragedy I would have taken other photographs ...)
Ksolem, the Great Organ seems to be safe...
Edit: Something that may seem anecdotal, all roads in France are measured from the forecourt of Notre-Dame de Paris.
nutstory

Trad climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2019 - 01:09am PT
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Apr 16, 2019 - 05:35am PT
The burning of Notre Dam is god's revenge on pedophiles. God, perhaps more Catholic Churches should meet the same fate?

Just kidding.

The burning is God's revenge on the French for refusing to speak with anyone who doesn't speak perfect Francais.

Seriously.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 16, 2019 - 05:47am PT
BTW, water weighs 8.34 pounds/gallon.

But France is on the metric system.

1 liter = 1 kilo = 1000 cubic centimeters (10x10x10)

Our imperial system is so much better.

Obviously.
seano

Mountain climber
none
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:15am PT
The burning is God's revenge on the French for refusing to speak with anyone who doesn't speak perfect Francais.
They're very finely attuned to accents, like Brits. They may respond in heavily-accented English if you make some tiny mistake, but they're not usually jerks about it.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:31am PT
Sorry about the problem with the twitter link I posted above. Here's a link to an article from Heavy.com, with photos from inside Notre Dame after the fire, including some from today that show that at least one of the big rose windows, which apparently survived the fire. If I run across other good links, I may add them to this post.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/04/notre-dame-damage-inside-altar-fire-photos/

Apparently one issue is to assess the building for weaknesses, especially in the stone vaulted ceilings. Those protected the inside from the fire, but apparently great heat can make the limestone brittle, the wooden and concrete struts that held them up are gone, and they also have actual holes in them, one of them from where the spire fell through the ceiling. Also the rose windows look like they survived but need to be checked.

This link has info about those things as well as about the spread of the fire. They say that if it had burned for 15-30 minutes more, the two gothic bell towers that make up the front of the cathedral might have collapsed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/16/notre-dame-fire-investigators-seek-cause-of-cathedral-blaze-paris

WBraun

climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:31am PT
Finding two dead guys with bullets in them inside tells the real story of this operation to keep the sheep securely in the corral.
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Apr 16, 2019 - 09:40am PT
Read an article that says the trio of rose windows and the Great Organ were not damaged.

https://www.citylab.com/design/2019/04/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-paris-gothic-architecture-history/587191/
WBraun

climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 10:25am PT
This was arson for political reasons as two people were found shot dead inside .....
fitzgeraldo

climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 10:33am PT
wtf is going on in this world????
everybody is moarning, 600 millions euro were given within 24h and all the news are full of it.

most of western world should talk about whats going on with julian assange, freedom and independence of journalism.


Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 16, 2019 - 11:12am PT
I'm pleased to hear that the organ may have been spared. I'm sure to some my concern seems trivial, perhaps even misplaced, but this instrument is unique. There are a few around by the same builder who worked in the mid 19th century. Some are more authentic - original console and all - but Notre Dame's is one of a kind.

Most likely it will not be played for some time, if only for fear of bringing the building down, and it probably needs a thorough cleaning. This will be epic. Each of over 8,000 pipes ranging from the size of a cigarette to 32 ft. long 2ft. diameter monsters will be removed individually, cleaned and re-installed. This along with the mechanisms which supply the air and allow for the action of each pipe.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 16, 2019 - 11:30am PT

Music has been part of Notre Dame’s history since its foundation. Some of the earliest known European composers, working in Paris around 1160 to 1250, wrote music for the liturgy each week even as the great cathedral was being built around them. Collectively these composers are known as the Notre Dame School. Their names are mostly forgotten. Through a 13th-century English scholar, known as Anonymous IV, we know of the two most important: Léonin and Pérotin.

Their lasting significance was to write down and develop western musical techniques which had previously only been extemporised. Their polyphonic motets (written for more than once voice) replaced the single line of Gregorian chant, common up to that point. The Magnus Liber Organi (“great organum book”), a collection of Notre Dame works, is one of the greatest single achievements in medieval art, a cornerstone of European music for the next three centuries. Léonin, according to Anonymous IV, made the collection, Pérotin later revised it. The American minimalist Steve Reich paid tribute to Pérotin in his vocal and electronics work Proverb.

Another globally important strand of musical life for Notre Dame is the historic organ, central to the flowering of French organ music. The current instrument, spectacular in size and symphonic sound, was originally built by the leading French organ maker Aristide Cavaillé-Coll in 1868. It has survived two world wars and was substantially improved in 1963 and again in 1990. Played on five keyboards and pedals, it has nearly 8,000 pipes and an advanced computer system.

Several French composers have held the position of organist at Notre Dame including Louis Vierne who collapsed and died at the organ console after a recital to 3,000 people. The most idiosyncratic, quirky and brilliant in modern times was Pierre Cochereau, improviser, composer, pedagogue and one of the greatest organists of the 20th century.

Fiona Maddocks

OT: Julian Assange and Wikileaks have done the world a great service...

KSolem: It's now corrected.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 16, 2019 - 12:10pm PT
it has nearly 8,000 stops and an advanced computer system.

Not to nitpick, but it has 8,000 pipes, not 8,000 stops which would require about 415,000 pipes. The computer system, in the new console, is rudimentary even for 1990, and simply allows the player to preset the stops being played at any given time. The player has to hit a button between the keyboards or with the feet to recall any given preset.

The console was installed in 1990, causing great controversy in the organ world. The body of the instrument is authentic other than the addition of a few ranks of pipes along the way.

Trivia. They are called stops because in the early days of organ building the knobs on either side of the keyboards stopped a rank of pipes from playing when pushed in. So the idea was that the organ was in its natural state when all the pipes were playing, full organ, and the organist would "stop" the ranks they did not want to sound.

I could go on for days about organs, but I'll stop now...
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Apr 16, 2019 - 12:15pm PT
They're very finely attuned to accents, like Brits. They may respond in heavily-accented English if you make some tiny mistake, but they're not usually jerks about it.
Bull crap. I spent a few years in Europe, studied hard, and achieved basic fluency in French. They were always jerks about their language. Always.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 16, 2019 - 12:36pm PT

When I started climbing in France, 25 years ago, I met some arrogant taxi drivers among others. The last ten-fifteen years much has changed. I think language related arrogance is now not found any more than in other western countries.

25 years ago I remember getting into a upper class library/book shop on Champs-Élysées in my rather dirty climbing clothes. I tried to get attention/service, but I don't think they were able to see me. I only look at wall paper in the way they not looked at me.

Great climbing, good memories...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 16, 2019 - 01:27pm PT
I wasn't trying to badger you into correcting anything, it's her quote after all... ;-)
Messages 1 - 45 of total 45 in this topic
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