SuperTopo is not a Place for Political Discussions

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Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 15, 2019 - 11:02am PT
As many of you have noticed, we have been increasingly locking or deleting threads that engage in topics of a political nature.

This may be confusing to some of you, as I know that many people on SuperTopo find these discussions on political topics to be interesting and engaging. But, we do not want to host political threads here.

Our mission for the SuperTopo Forum has never included hosting political discussion or debates. And, these political discussions often get heated and tend to bring out the worst behavior on the Forum.

As we state on the sidebar every time you post, "Our goal with the climbing forum is to provide a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations."

Allow me to state this as clearly as possible:
 Discussions about politics, despite their popularity, are not desired on SuperTopo, and never have been.

So, I'd like to ask for your help.

Please do not start threads on political topics.

Please do not post on political topics here.

Please use our feedback form to let us know of any threads on political topics so we can delete or lock them.

We kindly ask you to take your interest in political discussions elsewhere.

Those who do start threads on political topics from this day forward may have their account de-activated.

There are so many places on the internet that would love to host passionate discussions on political topics. Please understand and respect that SuperTopo is not one of them.

Help us keep the SuperTopo Forum focused on its intended purpose, to be a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations.

Thanks,

Chris McNamara
Founder
SuperTopo
ron gomez

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:05am PT
I for one wonít miss that aspect of ST.
Peace
dh

climber
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:08am PT
This would be much appreciated.

I don't give ST very much attention since the signal to noise ratio is low. Would love to see it stay on topic.

D.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:16am PT
Hmm. The What is Mind thread is not climbing oriented. Nor is the Climate thread. Will they be locked or deleted?
A Essex

climber
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:37am PT
Is 'Authoritarian' a political word?!
McGinnis

climber
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:39am PT
MSTGA
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2019 - 11:39am PT
ďAll politics is localĒ - Tip OíNeill
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Apr 15, 2019 - 12:29pm PT
Right now SuperTopo is deleting many trip reports, thousands of photos with climbing content, and deactivating accounts due to an interpretation of copyright law that does not even take the Fair Use Doctrine into account.

Is this a good time to also discourage political threads? What will be left???
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2019 - 12:31pm PT
What is the sound of one hand clapping?
norm larson

climber
wilson, wyoming
Apr 15, 2019 - 12:32pm PT
I certainly wonít miss them. Make SuperTopo great again!
shylock

Social climber
mb
Apr 15, 2019 - 12:40pm PT
This thread is 10 years too late at least.

no chite.

chris, how about taking the time to interact with us like more than disposable employees? perhaps explain the benefit of deleting original and amazing climbing content over the years? seemingly without any care at all...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 15, 2019 - 12:50pm PT
Hey Reilly -

Tried to contact you through ST, but I don't think the Taco messaging system works. Always thought your take on the stock market was a cut above. I've like to discuss a few things with you. If interested, you can reach me at etmtrader@yahoo.com.

Ed

Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Apr 15, 2019 - 02:16pm PT
Its about time, good riddance.
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
Apr 15, 2019 - 02:18pm PT
What the hell is going on around here????
PellucidWombat

Mountain climber
Draperderr, by Bangerter, Utah
Apr 15, 2019 - 02:31pm PT
Great! I might actually bother looking at the forums more...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 15, 2019 - 02:49pm PT
Politics is detrimental but BULGEMELON is OK?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Apr 15, 2019 - 02:54pm PT
Thanks, Chris.

About bloody time. Maybe I will start posting here again? You know, share some knowledge about big wall climbing, in case anyone actually cares about learning stuff.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Apr 15, 2019 - 03:40pm PT
^^^^ No thanks. Maybe just post a trip report or something that doesnít suck?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Apr 15, 2019 - 03:56pm PT
The Campfire, The Taco, ST....has been an amazing ride for me since I was introduced 11 years ago. Like everything in life it has evolved, transformed and is and will be what Chris is asking for in the last few days.

Super Topo has been life lessons, an introduction to a new family, and an entire new language for me. I will flow with the changes, but I hope to never leave. Change is just that, and but another opportunity for life.

Cheers with love, lynnie, and thanks for the years here.
Murf

climber
Apr 15, 2019 - 04:20pm PT

Prepping for the sale to bigger site of course!
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Apr 15, 2019 - 04:20pm PT
Although I rarely, if ever post in political discussions I have a hard time with this. If we discuss land policies that affect climbing access are those political topics or climbing topics? If we discuss global warming, which has implications on climbing conditions and sustainability is that a political topic or a climbing topic? If we discuss social conditions that give the privileged leisure time to recreate (climb) while those who aren't in that class can't afford or don't have the time is that a political topic or a climbing topic.

We are climbers and we're also humans. We should care about social conditions that affect all of us. The lack of civic engagement is a serious problem in this country that has resulted in us having, well, Trump. We should be encouraging more civic engagement, not less.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 15, 2019 - 04:44pm PT
Well said Mr. Friedrichs. I totally agree.
Politics are life.

There are folks that are hurting,since our last recession.

I work three jobs and have returned to school at 59. I can only afford to climb a half dozen times a year.

Upward mobility has ceased. Not just for me , but many.

If we can talk about stock markets,electric car companies,heck even living off grid, these things are very political.

Hey ,but,hands off of speaking of the direction of our country.

Ok, I understand and thanks.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 15, 2019 - 04:55pm PT
Generalizations really help.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Apr 15, 2019 - 05:04pm PT
OK, that was my chill side I guess. I also need to say I agree with several here that ask solid questions like how do you define the fine line of politics, policies and a political thread. Mike Friedricks and jogill I agree.

Edward T, for me the "messaging system" hasn't worked here for a long time. I wonder if it was disabled due to misuse of it, ie stalking, verbal abuse and who knows what else?
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Apr 15, 2019 - 05:47pm PT
noob question: if I can embed youtube videos by clicking on the "video" link above, then why can't the "photo" button send me to photobucket or wherever? I clicked on it and almost uploaded a photo.

I guess anyone with a website that they let other people publish to, even anonymous people, and considering all the bad things people can do, it's a lot to take on. Also a pretty weird group of people to try to use to impress sponsors, lol.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dgbryan

Mountain climber
Hong Kong
Apr 15, 2019 - 06:11pm PT
In reply to OP:
It's your site & so you are of course at liberty to manage it as you see fit. & so should it be.
But you might kill it.
One of the things I have enjoyed as a frequent lurker & occasional poster is the diversity of perspectives apparent in some of the more vitriolic debates. More than once something said has sent me off down a previously unknown trail of research to learn something new. The vitriol may be distasteful, but mostly its just comical & so you filter it out.
Climbing is life, but you can only spend so much time talking about it ...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 15, 2019 - 06:17pm PT
I personally didn't think that the subject matter was the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem, imo, is that any idiot can sign up for an anonymous account here, then post tripe that he (almost certainly) would never dare to say to somebody face-to-face, and then the moderators were playing perpetual whack-a-mole to shut down abusive accounts.

People would get banned and then almost immediately get reincarnated with a new handle and just continue their previous ways.

Add to that the fact that many people decried others who "tattled to the mods," as if that was "weak," and you end up with an environment in which the most verbally abusive and bullying personalities dominate.

SuperTopo has been an amazing learning experience for me. What an insight into how quickly people form tribes, adopt a sweeping us/them mentality, and defend "us" against "them" in the most vile and even violent ways. We're not too far removed from lower primates after all.

So, yeah, the mods are buried in whack-a-mole, and we don't self-police when the abusive behaviors are coming from people who agree with us. In fact, we applaud such behaviors against others that are "them."

Sad, but, yes, good riddance.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 15, 2019 - 06:41pm PT
Prepare to embrace the "super-lame."
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Apr 15, 2019 - 06:54pm PT
Oldfattradguy2

Trad climber
Here and there
Apr 15, 2019 - 06:55pm PT
Everything is political, ď a lulllaby is political if you are a babyĒ , Townes Van Zandt
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 15, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
I blame Moose...He trolled Cosmic into another galaxy...
ExfifteenExfifteen

climber
Apr 15, 2019 - 07:11pm PT
Seems as though most of you are struggling with reading comprehension. The almighty word seems black and white to me...


As we state on the sidebar every time you post, "Our goal with the climbing forum is to provide a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations."

Duh...
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Apr 15, 2019 - 07:20pm PT
Chris, I find the political content if this thread disturbing. Can you delete it, please.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 15, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Apr 15, 2019 - 07:59pm PT
Roger.......roger. :)
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:16pm PT
Our mission for the SuperTopo Forum has never included hosting political discussion or debates. And, these political discussions often get heated and tend to bring out the worst behavior on the Forum.

If I want specific standard beta on a certain climb, I will go to mountain project after using the supertopo topo if it exists. If I want expert climber opinion and stories about a certain climb, I would come to supertopo. But, with the new rules, the real gold of supertopo (the people who can share the stories) are at risk of being driven away by rules that bore the heck out of experienced climbers who donít want to talk about climbing all the time.

Iíve got no problem blocking copyrighted content. But what exactly is it that keeps eyeballs returning to this site? Itís not people coming to check for the latest beta on Royal Arches. Itís people returning to rub shoulders with climbing legends and heroes, to connect with old friends, to make new friends and to realize that a few years of wasting time in silly non-climbing conversations has led to making new online friends that become real life friends and climbing partners.

There needs to be an exchange of value and satisfaction to keep this site alive. I donít think it can compete for raw climbing beta compared to mountain project. The heroes and legends and average joe experienced folks who answer questions that make supertopo special, well they (we?) need a reason to come here day after day. Waiting for a n00b to ask an interesting question is not enough. No fair exchange of value, not sustainable.

Of course, this is only my opinion, probably shared by many, but certainly not all. Should be interesting to see how it works out but I wouldnít bet my business on the outcome.
i-b-goB

Big Wall climber
Nutty
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:16pm PT
It must be Tax time!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:19pm PT
Nutagain! Thank you for your thoughtfull post. I agree.

If I want specific standard beta on a certain climb, I will go to mountain project after using the supertopo topo if it exists. If I want expert climber opinion and stories about a certain climb, I would come to supertopo. But, with the new rules, the real gold of supertopo (the people who can share the stories) are at risk of being driven away by rules that bore the heck out of experienced climbers who donít want to talk about climbing all the time.

Iíve got no problem blocking copyrighted content. But what exactly is it that keeps eyeballs returning to this site? Itís not people coming to check for the latest beta on Royal Arches. Itís people returning to rub shoulders with climbing legends and heroes, to connect with old friends, to make new friends and to realize that a few years of wasting time in silly non-climbing conversations has led to making new online friends that become real life friends and climbing partners.

There needs to be an exchange of value and satisfaction to keep this site alive. I donít think it can compete for raw climbing beta compared to mountain project. The heroes and legends and experienced folks who answer questions that make supertopo special, well they (we?) need a reason to come here day after day. Waiting for a n00b to ask an interesting question is not enough. No fair exchange of value, not sustainable.

Of course, this is only my opinion, probably shared by many, but certainly not all. Should be interesting to see how it works out but I wouldnít bet my business on the outcome.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:41pm PT
From Mike F: "Although I rarely, if ever post in political discussions I have a hard time with this. If we discuss land policies that affect climbing access are those political topics or climbing topics? If we discuss global warming, which has implications on climbing conditions and sustainability is that a political topic or a climbing topic? If we discuss social conditions that give the privileged leisure time to recreate (climb) while those who aren't in that class can't afford or don't have the time is that a political topic or a climbing topic.

We are climbers and we're also humans. We should care about social conditions that affect all of us. The lack of civic engagement is a serious problem in this country that has resulted in us having, well, Trump. We should be encouraging more civic engagement, not less."

And Nut again's last post explain perfectly why I come to this site.

As suggested, real names would go a long way to improving the level of discourse.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:46pm PT
You always seem to have a balanced, nuanced way of looking at things Nut.
I appreciate that.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Apr 15, 2019 - 08:50pm PT
I have to say that I understand why folks might be afraid to host vitriolic discussion but such discussion is important to democracy and even to proper anarchosyndical climbing community progress and discourse. I don't come here for beta and I din't come here to hear from crusty old dads about beta. I come here to talk about and listen to others (some older, some wiser, some with whom I agree and others with whom I disagree) pontificate on life, which is inherently political, and for me inherently about climbing and wild lands. Jim Beyer did not name that thing DoAD or Intifada just on a whim....does my new route/summit name "STFU, Donnie" and its beta/TR now not get the same latitude on ST as Beyer's way bigger badder stuff? If so, I guess I'd better just go play with myself elsewhere. I bid you good day sirs and madams.

Jim Clipper

climber
Apr 15, 2019 - 09:03pm PT
So history shows that fattrad was years ahead of his time. The arc of justice is long.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 15, 2019 - 09:24pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 15, 2019 - 09:55pm PT
Gawd Madbolter would you make up your mind and either post what I agree with or post what I canít even stomach?

So sorry. I'll try to do better.

;-)
capseeboy

Social climber
portland, oregon
Apr 15, 2019 - 10:23pm PT
Land access issues...banned.

What a bucket of worms spawned by NetGen.

Good night folks and good luck.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 15, 2019 - 10:42pm PT
Fox News censored the political content of Nelson Mandela's Birthday Celebration. He was in jail under apartheid South Africa. They censored this song [Click to View YouTube Video]


And censored this song
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Port

Trad climber
Stockholm, Sweden 🇸🇪
Apr 16, 2019 - 02:11am PT
Finally. You should all be thanking Chris for saving you hours and days of your life arguing like children.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 16, 2019 - 04:39am PT
It's Chris's site, and I understand and will support his position.

That said, and admitting that I haven't read or posted much on the political threads for a couple of years now, I need to say this in support of those threads:

I was never the boulderer John Gill was, or the climber John Stannard was, but I was thrilled to interact with them, and a great many other outstanding climbers, as equals on the "off topic" threads on this site. I met a great many wonderful people -- climbers all -- on the political threads here.

Thank you, Chris, for hosting them as long as you have. This site remains an excellent resource for me, political or otherwise.

John
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:52am PT
ST is a community of aging climbers, many of whom (as I read it here) no longer climb much at all, if indeed at all anymore. Although the site is Chris's, without this cantankerous and rough crowd of climbers and ex-climbers (who have much to say about many things), there could be no ST at all. Changing demographics and experiences have led people to other topic areas other than climbing where they can continue to be cantankerous and rough.

I for one like this crowd, and I appreciate the opportunities to listen and maybe even talk to them.

A ban on political threads might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I suggest that the offense is not politics, per se, but people who go over the line and are particularly uncivil to others with their comments. That problem would call for some policing and messaging to those who cross the line offensively.

Who's to say what crosses the line? Administrative management.

Administratively, it's a bit lazy (but less costly) to make a black-and-white policy and expect that the policy will solve a problem organizationally. Good organizations require close management.

It could be possible to enlist community help to police the site of outrageous behaviors.

I could appreciate how the site might not be making the kind of money for the hassle of management, though.

Be well.
A Essex

climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:54am PT
is 'collusion' a political word?????
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:58am PT
Putting a muzzle on people for discussing topics that some might find unsavory even under the jurisdiction of a private business is is a business plan fraught with peril. Iíve been bouncing around this site in a sort of self imposed limbo for several years now anyway, so maybe itís time I go the way of the Dodo. One last question; whatís a climbing gym?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 09:13am PT
I wonder of threads like the old boobs one or similar would be welcome at the MSTGA site.

I do agree, though, that the political threads brought out extremely bad textual behavior in some people.
A Essex

climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 09:27am PT
(boobs)

use ur imagination you lazy screen junkies!!!!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 16, 2019 - 09:50am PT
Hey, John!

Nice to see you here. I've missed your voice in these discussions.
Spanky

Social climber
boulder co
Apr 16, 2019 - 10:25am PT
Kudos to you Chris, I used to spend quite a bit of time on ST but have drifted away over the last couple of years to MP because I come to theses sites for climbing content not political and religious arguments. thanks
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 16, 2019 - 10:55am PT
So if the ST sale rumors are legit, it appears that CMac doesn't really give a sh!t about the community he's created here but cares only about the value of his commodity.

I think he has that right. I'm not paying to use this site (though I've paid to buy many of ST's excellent guides), and I don't see where I have a right to devalue what Chris owns.

Apogee, it was great being able to participate with you in the discussions (yes, there were many) here.

John
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 01:14pm PT
We used to go into NP or NF wilderness without permits.
We could cram 5 vehicles and ten people into a free campsite in Josh.
We could make campfires from local wood and bury crap in a hole.
Drive without seatbelts, bike and ski without helmets.

The lowest common denominator always determines the rules or laws. Oh well, things always change.

I'll still peak in and hope to find a little personality left, to go with great trip reports and photography.
David Knopp

Trad climber
CA
Apr 16, 2019 - 02:47pm PT
happy what's mstga?
RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member
Apr 16, 2019 - 06:08pm PT
T Hocking said:
So if the ST sale rumors are legit, it appears that CMac doesn't really give a sh!t about the community he's created here but cares only about the value of his commodity.


Mr. Hocking, you are grossly misinformed, and also rather rude in your speculation about Chris's motivations.

I don't know what you are smoking to inspire your delusion of "ST sale rumors", but let me put the facts straight right now: the ST site is neither for sale, seeking sale, nor has the site been presented an unsolicited offer (and none is expected, ever). There is no basis for the "ST sale rumor" you falsely allege, which appears to only be a rumor because of your ignorant and speculative post which is completely and utterly without basis.

Further, the speculation that ST is making a lot of money on the forum, such as suggested in posts by Reilly, is definitively false and a further delusion. The ad revenue for the site does not cover the cost of keeping the site hosted and in operation. It never has. The Forum is provided as a service to the climbing community, at an economic cost for Chris and SuperTopo LLC. If Chris was focused on profits, the Forum would have been shut down long ago.

The SuperTopo site has never encouraged copyright infringement.

What Chris posted in that regard was neither a new policy for the site nor an unreasonable one for Chris to remind members about. It is perfectly reasonable to ask people to only upload images they own the rights to. The liability created by copyright violations is substantial.

The SuperTopo Forum has never encouraged political debate, despite the obvious interest of members to engage in those kinds of topics. While it is clear that many people like to discuss politics with a community of fellow climbers, it is also clear that political discussions have brought out the beast -- the worst in climber-to-climber behavior -- and result in substantial degradation of the Forum overall, and a significant burden of moderation costs. It is not what the site was ever about, and it is perfectly reasonable for Chris to ask folks to take those discussions elsewhere.

While you, T Hocking, may not care about the ethics or the liability created by violations of Federal Copyright law, or whether political discussions result in degradation of the core community mission of the Forum (due to substantial inappropriate comments, posts, and feuding between tribes of climbers), I'd ask you to consider whether it is reasonable for Chris to set the guidelines for this Forum, that exists solely because he has been willing to fund its hosting despite the lack of its commercial prudence.

rj
SuperTopo Webmaster
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 16, 2019 - 06:12pm PT
^^^ That seems definitive.

I, for one, appreciate the post.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 16, 2019 - 06:15pm PT
It helps to hear from someone who actually knows something.
ron gomez

Trad climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 06:17pm PT
Thank you! Hope this clears some questions and is straight forth.
Peace
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Apr 16, 2019 - 06:20pm PT
Thank you RJ
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 06:36pm PT
rj, thanks a lot for the clarification.

Question: Does it matter to you or Chris if someone, like myself, continues to post - in moderation of course - to the science v religion thread or the mind thread? I ask because, though they are not exactly political, these subjects do occasionally intersect.

What matters to you and Chris is, of course, what ultimately counts.

The conundrum at base, as I see it, is that politics like religion and science and other fundamentals relate strongly to culture and people and environment - and most if not all climbers certainly care a lot about culture and people and environment.

Something I've considered: I predict in one, two or five decades from now, if ST persists, it's likely to be the favorite go-to site for all retired climbers (lol) of Old Climber Homes (lol) across America and beyond. That might really be worth something someday, who knows.

Thanks for putting up and maintaining this resource. It certainly is one-of-a-kind. Though I do visit Mt Project I visit here 10 times more. Kudos.

P.S. I for one get the fact you guys are likely very busy with other projects and it might be some time before you get back here. But when you do, I'd love an answer, even if it's a month down the line.

Happy climbing.



P.P.S. I've just learned that brother-man, Dingus Milktoast, has been nuked. This is very sad. Sad. I don't know the story, of course, in fact not at all; but if there's any way to restore his content and get him, his old bones, his climber savvy and, last but not least, his general life savvy back online here, that would be far and away the best. The place simply wouldn't be the same without him.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:11pm PT
This was one of the first climbers forums on the Internet. I always suspected it was partly provided as a service for people to converse and share but also to drive traffic. Chrisís regular email update about the best of the forum shows it is still promoted. I doubt the traffic the forum generates much revenue. Ads donít pay much and the demographic isnít the type of people who buy lots of SuperTopos.

This is the first Iíve heard no politics are welcome. It has been asked to limit it but I donít remember it being banned.

About 10% of the forum was political threads and about 10% of my posts are on political threads. I donít post on political threads anywhere else. I post on political threads here because I have been here for close to two decades and I feel I know many of the posters here either in real life or just online and I like to hear their takes on the latest political news. Itís usially the newer totally anonymous posters (well maybe they were here but banned) or the banned posters who made really negative posts.

But Iíve never figured out why people donít ignore them. Or easier just ignore the political threads.

I understand not wanting to use any time or resources to moderate this forum. But this seems like a poor way to do it. Iíve suggested an ignore member button where you click it and never see that members posts again. Then thereís no excuse to complain to the moderators.

Copy righted images are another story. Itís a legal issue and I see why theyíd want to enforce it, especially if there was a complaint.

If Dingus is gone thatís a big hit to the forum.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:18pm PT
It is a great compliment to CMac and SuperTopo to have wandered into the significant target zone of the controllers and censors. Politics is among the least of the challenges to the approved narrative, although among the major mental distractions and poorly understood by most on this forum. The much bigger and more heavily surpressed issues have major implications for climbing abilities, that is to say the cosmological implications of quantum physics and the holographic universe models of reality. Once climbers tune into this, expect dramatic advancements in climbing abilities and never mind the politicians
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
While it is clear that many people like to discuss politics with a community of fellow climbers, it is also clear that political discussions have brought out the beast -- the worst in climber-to-climber behavior -- and result in substantial degradation of the Forum overall, and a significant burden of moderation costs. It is not what the site was ever about, and it is perfectly reasonable for Chris to ask folks to take those discussions elsewhere.

RJ
RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
HFCS:
I can't speak for Chris, but I can tell you that I am unaware of any complaints or moderation issues related to the What is Mind or the Science vs. Religion threads (and I probably would have heard about it if there were complaints regarding those threads). I'm confident that when Chris refers to political threads, he's talking about topics related to political issues of the day, mostly relating to Trump, current political policy issues, or prominent political figures. It is those kinds of discussions that tend to devolve into tribal mudslinging, personal insults, abusive comments, and require moderation. The combination of the cost in time to moderate those kinds of topics, and the lack of any connection to the core mission intended for the SuperTopo Forum, is what makes those kinds of thread topics highly undesirable. Topics like What is Mind or Science vs. Religion are really quite a different kettle of fish.

Similarly, some folks have asked about climbing related topics that have a political element, such as access issues, climate change, and policy related to national parks, etc. I believe those kinds of topics fit well with the mission of the Climber's Forum. Except for Climate Change, those kinds of topics do not have a history of requiring moderation due to inappropriate posts or personal attacks.

Lastly, regarding DMT, you should know that he was not nuked. Dingus Milktoast has been a long time and deeply respected contributor to the site. He asked to have his posts removed in a brief but very kind email to Chris. In his request to remove his posts he said:
Its been a wonderful run and I've no regrets nor criticisms. Thank you for the opportunity to post to and read your wonderful forum. Its time for me to move on. Cheers and see you at the crags.

Dingus Milktoast's contributions were appreciated by Chris and millions of people who have visited the SuperTopo Climber's forum. But, his request to remove his posts was respected. On behalf of all of us, I'd like to thank Dingus, ask you all to join Chris in respecting DMT's personal choice. It will be a pleasure to see him at the crags.

rj

ron gomez

Trad climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
Tom.....how ya doing buddy? Hope yer good.
Peace
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:33pm PT
Whoa. That was a great post. Thank you, Mr. Webmaster.

For people of this era, transparency matters a great deal. Just to hear that you've heard matters immensely. More, please.

If I were to understand that it matters, I would show up here no more. In some senses, it would be a pleasure. (But that, you see, is part of the attraction to this place.)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:45pm PT
rj, thank you.

"On behalf of all of us, I'd like to thank Dingus..." -rj

For sure. Philosophizing here at ST won't be the same without him.

...


Dingus, we won't ever cross paths at a crag*** without me introducing myself. Take care and happy climbing.

*** These odds increase in the Lake Tahoe, Alpine County or High Sierra venues. Kiss LS for me. See ya brother-man. Watch out for mountain lions and loose talus, too.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:47pm PT
Tad...The cavity search offer still holds...rj
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Apr 16, 2019 - 07:53pm PT
DMT will be back soon enough. I donít see him surviving cold turkey.

Rock Jox and Locker appear well on their way to getting thrown off MP.com.

Wide Fetish looks pretty juvenile.

Somewhere thereís always been a forum.

The picture thing is a loss - but a few forum rats - the 10% that create 90% of the posts - I donít see that shock and awe lasting for more than a week - then back to same-old.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:00pm PT
Nice to hear from an authority, moderation here has always struck me as mysterious and unresponsive, it's remarkable to have clear communication from RJ including answering questions. Well done.

RJ, could you shed any light on the disabling of embedded images? Having to click on links seriously degrades the climbing content here. It would also be nice to have a detailed set of guidelines regarding uploaded images. There is a lot of gray area around Fair Use, and people's image collections which may include pictures of them, not necessarily taken by them.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:02pm PT
Whoa. That was a great post. Thank you, Mr. Webmaster.


JLP

Social climber
The internet
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:22pm PT
disastrously muddy guideline
Since the post was deleted, quoting the link.

No kidding.

So now we know the BS you were fed that lead to all this?

IMO - grow a spine, guys.

ST seems big enough to not get bullied, too small and no money to actually get sued - for real sued like a court date scheduled, not just some stupid threat letter - most guys I work with frame those - the good ones.

I definitely disagree with you that there is a real threat to this site or ST LLC by storing the images Iíve seen here. Thereís just no way that would ever go anywhere. This place isnít Napster.

You get a take-down notice like how often? Surgically hit it, done. Let them do all the work of identifying specifically the image and proving they own it. Otherwise they can go pound sand.
WBraun

climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:43pm PT
Gawd damn JLP's got a fuking spine.

Thanks man!

Instead of all these spineless yes men here ....
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:53pm PT
Forrestís decision rested on two blockbuster tech industry lawsuits. One was the 2007 case Perfect 10 vs. Amazon, where a court ruled that Google search could show full-sized copyrighted images, as long as it was simply hotlinking them from other sites. This established something called the ďserver test,Ē which protects sites that display copyrighted content stored on someone elseís server. The EFF calls the server test ďa foundation of the modern internet.Ē It provides clear guidelines for liability and means sites canít be punished for content thatís beyond their control ó if, for example, a host changes an embedded link to display a different image.

I made it through about half of 2400 images. Deleted a bunch.
Came back and Shazam
All gone

No big deal
Not much that I will miss

Certainly miss my dog more!


aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 16, 2019 - 08:58pm PT
All in all, I'd like to thank Chris for having the courage to make some decisions which are not popular with everyone. Some of the photo threads have been outstanding, and I am glad people are not quibbling about them.

At first, it pained me to see a thread censored which was started by John Gill, as he is always gracious, courteous, respectful, kind and supportive (besides being one of the greatest climbing legends who post here). Still, I can see the wisdom of not having political threads, you can always comment on FOX and get a much larger audience.
RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member
Apr 16, 2019 - 09:04pm PT
aspendougy:
it pained me to see a thread censored which was started by John Gill, as he is always gracious, courteous, respectful, kind and supportive

No thread started by John Gill was censored that I am aware of.

However, John had two sign-ons, and he requested that the older one be deleted. Perhaps the thread you are referring to was part of that older sign-on that John requested we remove.

When people request that we remove content, we respect those requests.

However, if he started a political thread, that could have been either locked or deleted without regard to who started it.

JLP:
I respect your differing opinion but keep in mind that a roomful of thoughtful people may view the same situation, and the same facts, and reasonably disagree. It is your right to have the opinion that ST lacks sufficient machismo. But, I hope you can find space in your heart to understand that other reasonable people might think otherwise. In any event, I don't think Chris is going to lose a lot of sleep over your opinion about his testicular fortitude. But, getting to the heart of the matter, 1) the Verge article linked to refers only to hotlinked/embedded content, which was what Off White asked about, and is not relevant to images stored on the ST server, which you seem to focus on in your post (I'm sure you understand that those are not the same when viewed through the lens of copyright law), and 2) it is easy to talk tough from the peanut gallery, but if someone slipped on your sidewalk and sued you personally, whether justified or not, that tough talk isn't going to count for much in court and it may not be wise to indulge your bold instincts to simply respond with a loud and proud STFU.

rj

Trump

climber
Apr 16, 2019 - 09:04pm PT
I was kind of hoping the place would be a repository for my photos and inciteful political commentary and historical record of climbing stories in the form of online internet forum posts, but turns out maybe I should have believed The Rolling Stones all those years ago.

Ah hell, you can try some times anyway. Thanks for trying guys!
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Apr 16, 2019 - 10:01pm PT
if someone slipped on your sidewalk and sued you personally
This actually happened at one of our rentals. We evicted their ass, it got elevated to the point a sheriff came over to physically remove them, they basically sued in retaliation for something that probably never happened - and didnít get a dime - the defense didnít cost us a dime either but everything was on the line. Thatís one of a few lawsuits Iíve had my own skin in the game on.

Can we deactivate your account while someone restores this site back to last week?

For fukís sake - stop the deleting!

At least take a break for a week or two!!

Is this really all that urgent?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 16, 2019 - 11:30pm PT
Circular firing squad
mikeywally

climber
Apr 17, 2019 - 03:30am PT
is there any way for the average user to download the entire forum? in case it all goes away?
Rankin

Social climber
Winston-Salem, North Carolina
Apr 17, 2019 - 04:55am PT
Thanks Chris!
couchmaster

climber
Apr 17, 2019 - 06:06am PT
Thanks for making your positions clear RJ and Chris. You further explanations makes my heart very sympathetic. Of course I will adhere to the rules and hope others do as well.

I see people who have posted on this thread that I have tied in with whom I have had person to person political talks with. It seems like the drive to the crags we always talk about what we will be climbing, memories of previous outings and events, and lastly our lives and current events. Which includes politics, often heated: but never as rude and angry as it gets online. Seems that knowing your partner may be locking off a belay that will keep you off the deck or a ledge in a short time is conducive to a more harmonious discourse than found online with strangers:-)

I wish you well going forward. Difficulties will arise and in line with Mike Frederik's thoughtful post up thread, I have 2 words where current politics intersects dead on with climbing: Bears Ears. It will be a shame to not discuss it further, or to post to a old Bacher thread that missed deletion (anyone remember his "4th of you lie" thread talking about our countries 4th of July in a historical manner?). jb's existing (as of now) photobucket account shows that he ran @ 50-50 climbing and politics. Oh, but what climbing shots he had. https://s50.photobucket.com/user/johnbachar/library?page=1 But I digress.

For some great ex-Supertopian folks T Hocking, Moosedrool, former Ron Olevesky (Toker Villian), Lovegasoline, Fritz's photos, Dingus and a bunch of earlier axed folks - Jody, Ron Anderson, Locker,Fattrad, Pyro, Adam Burch (and any and all others I've missed): best of luck gentleman and sorry to see you off this way. Say hi to Cosmic and everyone else once you get to the other side. Getting back on here shouldn't be an issue once things cool off if it's an issue, but I suspect knott. Dingus, sorry to see you pull all of your content, I hope all of your excellent climbing stuff with Brutus from years back gets preserved. There is a robust and interesting discussion on MP about this thread: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116738075/supertopo-effectively-shuts-down-title-edited-for-the-wagon-circling-sensitive-t


Best to all



Gregory Crouch

Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
Apr 17, 2019 - 07:51am PT
Has anyone ever thought about actually thanking ChrisMac for hosting this forum?

We all seem to enjoy the heck out of it, and I'd guess it's nothing but an Eiger-sized pain in the ass for him.

Most of our howls from the wilderness strike me as little more than the squeals of spoiled children.

We in aggregate must be pretty close to the most unoppressed people on earth.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Apr 17, 2019 - 09:14am PT
That's a great point GC, one everyone agrees with - but the sum of contributions here by others is many orders of magnitude larger and appears to not be getting much respect at the moment.
ExfifteenExfifteen

climber
Apr 17, 2019 - 09:17am PT
Has anyone ever thought about actually thanking ChrisMac for hosting this forum?

Really? folks here just want to talk climbing and talk politics. Then want free healthcare cuz they deserve it!!!

I think ChrisMac owes us a thanks for letting us have free entertainment!!!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2019 - 09:19am PT
"Of course you're right!" I said, in my most convincing voice.

"I don't know what I was thinking, when I said let's climb that other one tomorrow."


At age 21 I learned the pissed off person uphill of you with a large rock is always right.
ExfifteenExfifteen

climber
Apr 17, 2019 - 09:21am PT
^ROFLMFAO... goddamnit Fritzy, that was awesome...
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
Apr 17, 2019 - 10:39am PT
How was your Humble Pie, Hocking?
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 17, 2019 - 10:45am PT
Rec.climbing, RC.com, ST Forum--they come, they go. Life goes on.

Curt
Roadie

Trad climber
moab UT
Apr 17, 2019 - 12:06pm PT
I think NutAgain! said it well. As a regular lurker and occasional poster I can say that without the political aspect I would visit this site MUCH less often. And I would probably stop posting all together as most of my stories have a political/social aspect in addition to the climbing. I have posted a few things here that I could have sold to the mags (and got some much needed cash!) but instead decided to share with the community here. In a world quickly becoming much more polarized and authoritarian I find these New Rules disturbing. Some of the threads on this site I treat like porn in that, if I don't want to look at it I just don't click on it. This site is marketed as a climbers campfire. If I were to amble up to some fire in Camp 4, pass around a few beers and bring up the topic of, I don't know, charter schools and was told, "you can't talk about that at this fire." I'd go find a better fire. I hope that doesn't happen here.
Steve Seats
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2019 - 12:26pm PT
Since around 2010 I had used ST as host for all the photos I posted here. When the schist started coming down, I was somewhat concerned that the climbing history thread photos of old climbing magazine ads & catalog pages would be destroyed.

As of this morning, everything was intact. I now discover every last photo I had saved to ST is gone. There are no hot-links in the threads.

So, history fans. This history is not illustrated any longer.

Why would management want to destroy something like these historical threads?

CHOUINARD, GREAT PACIFIC IRONWORKS & Other Gear Threads
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2906806/CHOUINARD-GREAT-PACIFIC-IRONWORKS-Other-Gear-Threads

Chouinard carabiner timeline 12/11/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1327553

Royal Robbins/Mountain Paraphernalia timeline & history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1022257&msg=1022257

Gauloises, Don Whillians, the Frogs & Climbing history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1410426/Gauloises-Don-Whillans-the-Frogs-and-Climbing-History

Here's what happened to every one of my photos stored on st.
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Apr 17, 2019 - 12:37pm PT
Fritz, I think someone mentioned the "wayback machine." Did you know that someone has been backing up the entire internet (what's indexed anyway) on a daily basis for years and making it available for free? I haven't checked it for this but they have probably archived all your posts.

Of course this is a galactic sized copyright infringement lol.

I had a website once, many years of work and thousands of pages (non climbing). One day my provider Icdc went out of business. No website, no emails, no advance notice at all. Luckily I could download gigabytes of my materials from the wayback.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2019 - 12:44pm PT
My photos for these trip reports & threads of interest are all gone too.

The Post up a Rock on Tuesday Thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2577492/The-Post-Up-a-Rock-on-Tuesday-thread

The five stages of backing off climbs.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1039807/The-five-stages-of-backing-off-climbs

Donini at The City of Rocks: Climbing as a Lifetime Sport! 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.html

Brenta Dolomites hiking & climbing 2014
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2482150/Brenta-Dolomites-hiking-stories-history-adventure-thread

2011 Sawtooth Mtns. Choss Adventure----The Grand Aiguille
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1599813&msg=1599813#msg1599813

2012 August A Short Visit to an Island! In NV. with a mtn. & history!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1902511/A-Short-Visit-to-an-Island-In-NV-with-a-mtn-history

4 mtns, 10 Cuts, & 100 miles of ridgetop dirt road in Idaho! Sept 2012

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1931187&msg=1931187#msg1931187



Training for, then climbing a 28,999í Tropical Volcano
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/TRAINING-FOR-THEN-CLIMBING-an-AWESOME-8839-meter-28-999-Ft-TROPICAL-VOLCANO/t11824n.html

A Ridge So Far &/or Am I getting too-old for this? Idaho 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Ridge-So-Far-or-Am-I-getting-too-old-for-this/t13337n.html

FRITZ & HIS FLIES! BITING-FLESH ADVENTURES IN DEEPEST IDAHO! 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/FRITZ-HIS-FLIES-BITING-FLESH-ADVENTURES-IN-DEEPEST-IDAHO/t13327n.html

The Delights of Delano on the 1st day of Summer. 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3099204&msg=3099702#msg3099702


International Travel Adventures
Bariloche Argentina Treking becomes an adventure. 4/1/2010 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Patagonia-Treking-becomes-a-Fritz-Adventure-Bariloche-Argentina/t10612n.html

Mustang story on Nepal appreciation thread. Dec 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1680800&msg=1684994#msg1684994


Spring fun in Spain, with some climbing too!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Spring-fun-in-Spain-with-some-climbing-too/t11400n.html

A visit to Doniniís Bivy cabin in Patagonia & ensuing adventures
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2101371/Chilling-in-Chilean-Patagonia-at-Basecamp-Donini-Bivy March 2013

A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html

HOTEL TO HOTEL HIKING WITH HEIDI & JERRY & ANGIE IN THE DOLOMITES 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/HOTEL-TO-HOTEL-HIKING-WITH-HEIDI-JERRY-ANGIE-IN-THE-DOLOMITES/t13352n.html

A visit to Dubrovnik, some sailing in Croatia, & an Octoberfest Party on the way home 2017
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-visit-to-Dubrovnik-some-sailing-in-Croatia-an-Octoberfest-Party-on-the-way-home/t13220n.html[/quote]


Skyladder & North Face Athabasca Columbia Icefields 1974
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3051216/Skyladder-Mt-Andromeda-Columbia-Icefields-1974-Recently

A SLICK ROCK Adventure in Idaho with a single Blue Camalot Belay aug.2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-SLICK-ROCK-Adventure-in-Idaho-with-a-single-Blue-Camalot-Belay/t12821n.html

Pursuit of BlueBonnet tower and the Lost Crystal Cave. Dec 2009 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Pursuit-of-Bluebonnet-Tower-and-the-Lost-Crystal-Cave-Sawtooths-Idaho/t10506n.html

Elephantís Perch New route 1/15/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Elephant_s_Perch_Sawtooth_Range_Idaho_NR_Epic_Pacydermial_Pleasantries_1977/t10566n.html




I saw a possible end of ST coming back about a year & started saving threads from here to my computer.

Also, Tom Lopez, the author of Idaho A Climbing Guide, has hosted these three stories on his website. Pursuit of BlueBonnet tower and the Lost Crystal Cave, Elephantís Perch New route
A SLICK ROCK Adventure in Idaho with a single Blue Camalot Belay aug.2015

Here's the link. https://www.idahoaclimbingguide.com/contributors/ray-brooks/

Thanks fellow STians. It's been gud to know you!

Google up my stories at Ray Brooks Idaho
nah000

climber
now/here
Apr 17, 2019 - 01:04pm PT
iíd have more respect for the management (tm) if they just killed the whole deal... as long as they gave a week or two for people to do some wayback machining to back somethings up before the whole kit and caboodle disappeared.

given the lack of a real explanation, all I can figure is that it seems like they wish they could have the civility and climbing focus of a mountain project but without having to invest into either moderation or better code...

i get there is no money to be had and thatís fine... then either kill it if this has truly turned into the liability that they are acting as though it is, or if they truly have to make all of these changes then a simple heads up and a timed notice would have been a lot more fruitful than the ďoh, by the way, we just changed the code so you can no longer see any photos that arenít hosted by usĒ and ďoh, by the way weíre now deleting either all of the photos or full accounts of major contributors because we might have seen an illegal photoĒ... after itís already in the process of being done...

biggest issue i have is there seems to be a complete lack of understanding regarding what huge swaths of the internet are based on: can you imagine facebook, reddit, et al existing where there was no such thing as a collective commons or fair use and so the only way a person could post an image was if they took it themselves?

what a joke that would be.

and so what a joke this has become.

unfortunate... but it appears minds are already made up, so itís going to be what itís going to be...

all iíll finish with is that anyone who thinks supertopo without politics, off site image hosting being displayed in all of the historical threads or the ability to post photos that are commonly owned or utilized under fair use... is going to be a better place? yeah, no. these actions just hasten this joints demise...


still, i appreciate what has been done over the years and given the archaic structural foundations to this board itís impressive it has gone on as long as it has... for that i still owe a sincere thanks to chris, rj and the rest of the team... and someday if our paths cross probably at least a round or seven on me...
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
Apr 17, 2019 - 01:22pm PT
Fritz, that loss is heart breaking.

Susan
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Apr 17, 2019 - 02:03pm PT

http://www.supertopo.com/rock-climbing/Yosemite-Valley-El-Capitan-Scorched-Earth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

L

climber
Just livin' the dream
Apr 17, 2019 - 02:17pm PT
Fritz, that loss is heart breaking.


Ditto that, Susan.
ron gomez

Trad climber
Apr 17, 2019 - 02:23pm PT
I could be wrong, but all this was/is spelled out in ďterms and conditions, if so then we had notice, we just didnít pay attention/care about the eventuality. I agree, wish there was a ďgraceĒ period with a drop dead date before deletion took place, but it is a done deal. Maybe all of that material is backed up somewhere...maybe knot. So far, Iíve not been effected, but I feel for all those that are.
Peace
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Apr 17, 2019 - 02:31pm PT
Ron - the issue here is managing the gray area between.

IMO, the root cause of the present problem is a low end, entry level response to being told "jump as high as you can now or else!" because some retard screamed that you had to.

A modicum of experience teaches you when it's more appropriate to tell someone to fuk off and continue with your business.

ST.com = massive copyright violation and personal liability to the owner? No way. Give me a break.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Apr 17, 2019 - 02:33pm PT
really? where was it spelled out in the TOS that the mgmt would ASSUME that your personal photos were not yours?
Trump

climber
Apr 17, 2019 - 04:09pm PT
CMac has been hosting a virtual campfire for a while, and if some folks feel like they need to piss on the fire as the evening ends, ok. Thereíll be other fires.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Apr 17, 2019 - 04:21pm PT
So the implication above that SuperTopo, because it isn't "profitable" is a purely selfless community service on the part of CM.... could be questioned.

I would like to read your thoughts and conclusions questioning why Chris McNamara did not start and continue to run Supertopo as a purely selfless service

what information do you have that the rest of us do not have about Chris and his motives ?

thank you sir
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 17, 2019 - 04:30pm PT
I have to say ,I have really learned a bit,right here.

Real Estate Agent, says a lot.

I will take the chop and right on Jebus.

Bandwidth =Money.
A Essex

climber
Apr 17, 2019 - 07:56pm PT
nihilist egomaniac
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 17, 2019 - 08:52pm PT
break on thru to the other side


ST lost tens of thousands of readers when they started banning people who were long in the REAL climbing community. They went from having a rating on the websites that count clicks (like Alexa) to something not even counted any longer. Meaning they lost all their market value many years ago.

The few people left (fewer every year) felt wonderfully self-righteous as each and every climbing member that posted came under inspection and almost every one was found lacking in something, and was ruthlessly heckled until they either left, asking for their lifelong postings be destroyed, or they were ruthlessly banned and their posting deleted.

This went on without shame for the last 10 years. Christ Mac is getting exactly what he has earned. He aint done nothing with the website in many years except try and sell ads thru his equipment "rating" website... the one that never finds a truely bad product. His website is dying as much as a vanity site can ever die. Look at rec climbing; completely dead for many years, yet you can still post there... sorta... I left a prediction (there) that ST would fail the climbing community as a repository of climbing history, in just the way it has. That post got a lot of response out of a truely dead site, I was castigated for leaving a complaint about one site on another... which is funny as Recclimb may outlive ST in the end.

ST is a sellout to the people that created this sport, maintain the sport and will be the future of the sport.

Good riddance to the only claim to cultural relevance that Supertopo ever had, the historical database of intentional first person stories about the beginnings of Yosemite Climbing.

They dont/didnt HAVE to do ANY of this, They Choose Too. They make MONEY off of climbing, they dont want actual climbers now, any more than they have ever have. They want our money and to assume our presumed mantle of institutional power. To pretend to represent Climbers means to assume the power we presumably represent in the outdoor community. Even when what they want is nothing good for climbers, just themselves ...

They are also banning "political" postings. And another Great Purge of posters is going on, mostly without notice or recourse... Hahahahaha... BTDT!

Goodbye to the Remnants of the Facade; the newly irrelevant.

...I Told you So....

Rokjox Bitrakn Teleski
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 17, 2019 - 09:00pm PT
Well, Rokjox was crazy back then, and it looks like he's still crazy now.

He still holds the record -- even after all these years -- for being the most easily trolled person ever to post on ST. Whenever things got a bit boring here, all one had to do was drop a casual reference to wolves into a post, and it would set Rokjox off for a week's worth of rants.

Does he still provide that kind of hilarity on MP?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 18, 2019 - 10:04am PT
We all have our trigger points. Dmitri Mendeleev was wont to go into a nice rage somewhat randomly. Rokjox clearly knows how to get along in a given sandbox as evidenced by his considerable successes in life other than more important ones like satisfying the ST echo chamber monitors. Donít think for a moment he didnít love letting yíall think he was being trolled.
Keith Reed

climber
Johnson county TX
Apr 18, 2019 - 10:38am PT
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/18/interior-department-david-bernhardt-public-lands-corporations

90% or more of the land we climb on is owned by our government. If we as climbers donít protect it, the land will be privatized. Our sport will go away.

Burying the collective group of climbers head in the sand by forbidding rational conversation is a bad move.

Theres no place to post concerns about access or the environment within ST other than the forum.

Therefore we have no voice amongst ourselves about the issues that affect our sport.

Good luck to you all!
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Apr 18, 2019 - 11:54am PT
^Yup, Keith is right.

Seems apropos at the moment:

My name is ST-"ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.Ē
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
Apr 18, 2019 - 12:30pm PT
Feels like ďall gone, bye byeĒ around here.


:-(


Susan
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Apr 18, 2019 - 01:13pm PT
I hear that some important things happened today, but I guess we can't discuss them here. :-)
Jim Clipper

climber
Apr 18, 2019 - 01:26pm PT
I think that Cmac added cat herder to his resume. Rumor has it, he made some little Cmacs, and they boulder harder than you. The torpor is dead, long live the torpor.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 18, 2019 - 02:01pm PT
My time on this site kinda died about 3 or 4 years ago, I'll pop in occasionally but the noise absolutely drowns out the content.



Supertopo has started to look like my facebook feed, a bunch of baby boomers high on pills who haven't worked for a decade arguing over nonsense that only exists on the platform they like to argue on, thus fueling a self perpetuating machine of addled delusion.

We could have self policed ourselves, we almost did. Then the loudest kept drowning out the interesting yet quiet, and louder and louder they got until there was no voice but their own.

If you are arguing against Chris and RJ here, it's probably because you are one of those loud mouths. Some of us still rock climb.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Apr 18, 2019 - 02:49pm PT
I am confused as to why you would think that new-route rock climbing and political engagement are mutually exclusive GDavis....or how seeing the link between rock climbing on public lands and politics somehow negates my ability to go climbing....But then, I must not rock climb enough, right?

Off to go climbing. And then finish cleaning out my stuff here. You guys need any of these leftover rainforest-sourced tissues?
Gorgeous George

Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
Apr 18, 2019 - 05:22pm PT
Not saying anything about nothing is a political statement.
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Apr 19, 2019 - 03:57am PT
Well crap. Now, what are we going to argue about? Bolting? Sheesh!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 19, 2019 - 07:05am PT
Down vs Synthetic....

Camalots or ?

How many nuts should I bring?

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 19, 2019 - 08:51am PT
How many nuts should I bring?

SEXIST!

I dream of a day when all cliffs can be populated by people of all genders, those having nuts and those not having nuts, where the question of "how many nuts" is never asked, because a climber is judged not by the quantity of their nuts but by the quality of their character....

Oops.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Apr 19, 2019 - 09:11am PT
Did rokjox ever climb? I thought he said he had never placed pro or climbed outdoors.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 19, 2019 - 09:16am PT
I should add that I have not yet attended my mandatory training in micro-aggressions.

At least I did not mention my Big Bros tube c*#ks for slots... chocks I mean... yes chocks.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 19, 2019 - 09:37am PT
^^^ :-)
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Apr 19, 2019 - 09:54am PT
So RJ-one of your members on the ST Staff posted on this site recenlty additional dialogue on Political Discussions and ever onward, or should I say downward about why this is not a place for them.

So low and behold, I searched his postings and dam if the vast majority of his contribution to ST were not politically related.

I see that his posting and my response on this have been deleted?

Am I missing something here?

Can you explain please?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 19, 2019 - 03:31pm PT
It isn't really politics that have ruined this place. It is the people who spend a large portion of their lives here. This place is dominated by 50-odd old ex climbers who you can't argue with. They post so often that you would have to spend hours each day just to follow some of the threads and give thoughtful responses.

I prefer the sunshine outside.

Screw this place 90% of the time. The What is Mind thread started in 2011, and has remained on the front page ever since. It has nothing to do with climbing. Largo stands court. Kneel in his presence.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Apr 19, 2019 - 03:36pm PT
^^^^^ Aint that the truth.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 19, 2019 - 04:10pm PT
^^^
Excellent point.
jgfox

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Apr 19, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
Bring back Burch.

Bring back the Local's Thread! http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2565951&tn=140
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Apr 19, 2019 - 07:09pm PT
About politics....rarely posted about the topic. I must say tho that reading the more reasonable, solid comments from the likes of Ed Hartouni and others I thought much about what they said and I have become more moderate.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 19, 2019 - 07:12pm PT
Lynne, as a longtime ST polititard, I canít remember the last time I saw Ed post anything in a political thread. However, I share your broader point: quality posts from people like John Eleazarian have made me think outside my own box.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 19, 2019 - 07:15pm PT
Likewise.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 19, 2019 - 07:31pm PT
JE and I attended the same schools, shared differing viewpoints, and always argued politely.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Apr 19, 2019 - 08:08pm PT
Apogee and Wilbeer, it may have only been a sentence or two and not even on a political thread. Ed only needed a sentence or two to make me think.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 19, 2019 - 08:12pm PT
I enjoy participating in the climbing content and the loss of political discourse here is no big deal. So rest easy folks, climbing is a trivial and superfluous byproduct of a politically successful society.
I say, let's enjoy the useful distraction of this Climber's Forum while we can- politics will always reign and when it hits the fan, inconsequential things like climbing will be the first to go and you'll have more politics than you can deal with.

To the people I've had discouse with in both agreement and opposition; thanks It's been fun.

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. Pericles

Of all the varieties of virtues, liberalism is the most beloved. Aristotle



wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 19, 2019 - 08:13pm PT
About all that is needed from what I know of Dr. Hartouni.

And ,please do not apologize for being concerned about you,your families,all of our concerns about the future,you know politics.


Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2019 - 08:50pm PT
Some of you have raised concerns that my original post on this thread means that there is zero tolerance for any thread that has anything connected to politics.

That is not the case.

Any climbing topic related to the core mission of SuperTopo, even those that inherently have a political element, is welcome.

As a reminder, that core mission shows up on the right every time you post "Our goal with the climbing forum is to provide a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations."

Climbing topics that are also political in nature, such as access issues, climate change, or discussion of policies related to or impacting climbing destinations are welcome here.

What we don't want is to have the forum taken over by national and international political issues that are either not related to climbing, or very thinly related to climbing. If you're not sure if the issue is just thinly related to climbing, then it probably isn't what we want here. If you want to make a post about how every political issue is somehow related to climbing, please do it on another web site. There are so many other web sites that embrace political discussions. SuperTopo is not one of them.

Political threads with nothing or very little related to climbing have led to the least civil discourse on the forum in this site's 18-year history, and have often required significant moderation to address personal abuse, attacks, and bullying.

Also, as a practical matter, political threads just bury the climbing topics and make the useful climbing stuff on the SuperTopo forum harder to find.

Thank you for respecting this and for helping us make the SuperTopo Forum a great resource for climbers.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 19, 2019 - 09:58pm PT
Chris, I realize that advocating for these kinds of threads is pretty pointless, as it is your website & forum, and I respect your desire to see it contain whatever content you think most closely fulfills your own vision.

That said, I just can't wrap my head around the rationale that the topic of politics...national, international, or whatever...is any different from any of the vast array of topics that appear on this forum constantly. 'What is Mind'...Tractors...Progressive Rock...and on and on and on...these topics are as thinly connected to climbing as politics are- and these threads bump climbing content about as much as anything political. I just can't buy into that part of the rationale for scrubbing it.

What I can buy into is that political threads have absolutely been some of the most prolific sources of negativity, bullying, and ad hominems anywhere on this forum. That rationale, all by itself, is enough for me to understand why you do not want to see it as part of this place.

That's truly a shame, too, as I enjoy discussing politics with other climbers as much as I do talking about anything related to climbing (or Progressive Rock, or Tractors, etc.). I'm sure many users here would be happy to see anything political completely disappear, but I'm one of the few who feels a loss.

Having said all this, I do thank you for the work and patience you've had in managing something that certainly generates more headaches than benefits, much of the time.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 19, 2019 - 10:30pm PT
I understand what Chris is saying; I just wonder why this discussion could not have taken place years ago. We've seen threads deleted, boom. Yes, they were off topic and heated with personal aspersions and ad hominem attacks as well as Russian troll comments but maybe, if the rules of the site had been enforced or enunciated more clearly, we wouldn't be at this point. We are all political and the political component we have defines our world view; that view affects our lives. Yes, it would be 'nice' if only climbing content were posted, but that is not who we are. We are a gestalt of our environment, and that environment includes the realities of our lives and that reality includes politics because that affects everything.
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
Apr 20, 2019 - 06:11am PT
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I for one would be thrilled to never see a political thread in the Supertopo forum again.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 20, 2019 - 01:43pm PT
This new policy departs from what has been stated in the past.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/501284/my-annual-post-about-non-climbing-threads

Sure you donít want the forum taken over by political posts, but the free wheeling nature of this forum has been a huge part of its appeal. Talking politics with fellow climbers at least gives you something in common with people of other persuasions and may open up your mind to other views. Yes these threads bring out the worst in SOME people. But there have also been some good deep philosophical discussions and I have learned a lot about how different people think. So because some people cause problems we have to throw it all out? As I posted before it was about 10% of threads (maybe up to 25% at times) and about 10% of my posts have been on political threads because I like to hear what people I know from the forum think about the latest news.

It seems abusive posts by some members are the problem not the political threads which are the minority of topics. I would have much rather Prefered a way for users to not see posters or topics they they donít like (because it seems some people canít simply ignore them on their own). This new policy will either cause more moderation time and/or drive long time members from the forum.

This policy of no longer allowing the freedom to post what you want and no longer allowing linked images in threads (which should be no issue) are bigger drawbacks to me than simply ignoring threads or members I donít want to see. And Iíll be visiting the site much less often.

I wanted to give my feedback because Iíve appreciated the forum over almost 2 decades.
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
Apr 20, 2019 - 03:09pm PT
Fet, the problem that I have with them is the following, and this is just my impression of the sequence of events, I can't prove cause and effect:

Before there were a lot of political threads, people were in general decent to each other. Yes there was some back and forth but not so much constant nastiness and name-calling.

Sometime in the Obama presidency, the number of political threads started to increase more dramatically, and people started to get really nasty to other people they disagreed with. I almost never clicked on the political threads but I became aware of the nastiness because it started LEACHING INTO EVERY OTHER THREAD. I'd be reading a total non-political thread and people would make nasty comments to another forum poster, based on their developed hatred of them from a political thread.

As this nasty tone escalated throughout the Forum, a lot of low volume but semi-regular posters (I'm in that category) gradually left the Forum, because what was once a pretty fun and entertaining place, had just stopped being entertaining.

I still visit here because there are some threads that I enjoy and some people still posting who are real gems, but I personally think the political threads did huge damage.
Take care, Phyl
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 20, 2019 - 03:18pm PT
Recently I started a positive polithread on Mayor Pete, trying to keep it polite and upbeat. And most posters complied, but a couple of negative bashes (not against Pete) appeared. Then it was locked.

Avatars have made the internet landscape unpleasant.

edit: I realize the thread ran afoul of the new policy, so was locked. My feelings weren't hurt.
Ay Aye

climber
...some assembly may be required
Apr 20, 2019 - 03:41pm PT
Saving the planet, stopping totalitarianism, helping a lost robot...was nothing sacred?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2019 - 03:55pm PT
jogill, I suspect your thread was locked more as a matter of renewed policy enforcement efforts, and less to do with the actual tone of what was discussed there. Everyone could have remained perfect sweetness and light, and because the thread was overtly political, it got the lock.

Chris isn't going to budge on this, so it is what it is.

I'll reiterate, though, just because I want to: setting aside the negativity those threads tended to be associated with, given the wide range of topics that show up here constantly that have nothing directly to do with climbing, it seems quite odd to single out politics as the sole issue to carve out. If the rationale is based on the pattern of negativity associated with those threads, I get that. It seems to me that giving a firm axe to those who were the regular sources of it (myself included, at times) would achieve the intended effect much more effectively.
A Essex

climber
Apr 20, 2019 - 04:48pm PT
do ya'll even 4/20?

sheesh
WBraun

climber
Apr 20, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
Trump is a moron. Hillary sucks. But the dems won't see the light, and the conservatives will let the planet go to sh#t calling every bad decision they ever make "god's divine will".

Hundreds and thousands of politard posts here distilled into one simple sentence .....
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 20, 2019 - 07:39pm PT
Avatars have made the internet landscape unpleasant.

I think that's a big part of the problem, John, but not the entire problem. I largely started to ignore the political threads (on which I made an excessive number of posts) after the 2016 election, because the nature of acceptable political rhetoric changed dramatically, both on the internet and in general.

Until then, I was able to engage in worthwhile discussions, minus the noise so accurately distilled in the two posts above. I actually learned some things that changed my mind from the political discussions on ST. Once the signal-to-noise ratio increased beyond my tolerance, I didn't need a change in ST policy to stay away from pointless rants.

And I should add that the ST policies and actions toward overtly political threads have changed, despite representations to the contrary. To me, at least, disapproval differs from prohibition and removal.

Phyl, I would second what the Fet said, above, about the attraction of the freewheeling nature of this forum. I think you've seen the reaction of some of the ST regulars on my Facebook post, about how much they missed that "campfire." It wasn't just the aggressive ones. People who, to my knowledge, never posted (and never wanted to post) an offensive comment were some of the most outspoken against the current situation.

Ironically, the change has caused me to post more in the last few days than I have in the past two years, because I greatly value the people I got to know here, even before I met them in person. I hope we'll stay true to the climbing atmosphere with which I grew up -- one that valued individuality and freedom so greatly.

John
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 20, 2019 - 09:58pm PT
Thanks Phyl. I agree with a lot of what you wrote.

But for example I have also appreciated the discussions Iíve had with John E. An extremely respectful member that Iíve learned a lot from who has made me see the other side of some issues. I missed his input after 2016. But I totally understand why he would refrain. Things have gotten worse in some aspects. There are a number of new totally ananymous accounts that only (or mostly) post to political threads. Are they are some of the most nasty.

I just feel there must be some solution that doesnít require moderator input or restrictions on the forum that allows members to tailor the forum to their liking. But perhaps since the forum is provided as a community service itís not worth the time or expense to figure that out.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 20, 2019 - 10:19pm PT
Yeah well Werner, distilling you down to the nut reveals 'You're all stupid'.

Edited to add: I sure hope that wasn't 'political' comment. Otherwise it would be deleted.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2019 - 11:20pm PT
John, that's one of the things I appreciate most about you: unbridled idealism. You've long espoused the idea that 'the cure for bad free speech is more free speech', as it relates to politics, and presumably, the dynamics in ST political threads.

I understand the principle, but I'm at a loss as to how it could have worked here in these ST political threads. No matter how respectful the dialogue might have been amongst some, there was always a few (or a lot) that just poured on the shitsauce with no restraint, whatsoever. I really can't blame Chris for seeing only one way to deal with that negativity: axe it all, every bit of it.

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 21, 2019 - 06:12am PT
The Administration's have done a good job of purging the worst actors. The discourse has been pretty tame considered the subject matter and certainly doesn't come close to the threats an errant bolt can generate.

If I were a guessing person, I'd believe that there are just a few members who can't stand the political leanings here and continually work behind the scenes to blow the whole political thing up.

The proof lies in the multiple threads that are not climbing related that do have heated back and forth, although in a more gentrified manner.

Let the political threads go- the more we covet a forest the more a pyromaniac wants to set it ablaze.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 21, 2019 - 07:26am PT
One good thing, the Russian trolls are gone.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 21, 2019 - 09:58am PT

I'm not able to resist, but I promise: this is the last one. This thread is a political discussion dressed as political instruction...
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Apr 21, 2019 - 10:03am PT

"Where There's No You"

Reina del Cid
Published on Apr 21, 2019

https://youtu.be/1YHR7FWI7Go





Lyrics:

Iím going to get some air
and I donít need a train to take me there
Iím going where the waterís blue
Iím going where thereís no you

Iím walking through a canyon range
these legs can take me miles and miles
away from your sweet face
Appalachia and the Rockies too
Iím going where thereís no you
Where thereís no you

Hello to the Great Divide
Hello to Caroline
Wonít stop till the borderline
California, here I come

Iím heading to the Garden State
wanna take the whole Atlantic in my arms and float away
I am swimming where the birds sing a different tune
Iím going where thereís no you
Where thereís no you

Hello to Mammoth Cave
Hello to the Everglades
Bring on the better days
Arkansas, how do you do?
And are you lonely too?

My darling, howíd I get this far?
See Iím halfway around the world
and Iím still wondering where you are
Well I canít see what there is to do
so I keep going where thereís no you
where thereís no you
where thereís no you

Iím getting nowhere
and thatís the truth
Ďcause I keep going
where thereís no you
Prezwoodz

climber
Anchorage
Apr 21, 2019 - 11:01am PT
I would be glad to see them go as well. One reason I stopped visiting often is because there really weren't that many climbing posts or they were just hard to find.
capseeboy

Social climber
wandering star
Apr 21, 2019 - 11:02am PT
Even with algorithms, FB has huge problems with hate threads couched in code speak/memes/connotations that algorithms do not detect.

I suspect some threads on ST to be trolls. I've read the best thing to do is ignore them, as any response, pro or con, gives their jollies a stroke.

Personally, I find it difficult not to express an opinion, even though I acknowledge that it is actions, not words, that change things.

Sincerely sorry for the grief to the ST business model; however, in today's world environment of the net, your being naive if you think your not going to be abused by the public at large.

Good luck.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 21, 2019 - 09:26pm PT
I understand the principle, but I'm at a loss as to how it could have worked here in these ST political threads. No matter how respectful the dialogue might have been amongst some, there was always a few (or a lot) that just poured on the shitsauce with no restraint, whatsoever. I really can't blame Chris for seeing only one way to deal with that negativity: axe it all, every bit of it.

Eliminate the avatars. I have seen this work on site after site, where the offensiveness had gotten out of hand. People usually dramatically change what they say, when their actual name is associated with the words. There are crazies, but they are few, and easily spotted.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 21, 2019 - 10:09pm PT
Eliminate the avatars. I have seen this work on site after site, where the offensiveness had gotten out of hand. People usually dramatically change what they say, when their actual name is associated with the words. There are crazies, but they are few, and easily spotted.

While I agree, Ken, that this would help (as I responded to John Gill, above), my experience on Facebook makes me skeptical of solving the problem. I've seen some offensively hateful political posts on Facebook by people giving their real names. The current political situation seems to make people feel justified in engaging in intellectual holy wars, trying to show their purity to those on their own side, rather than engaging in reasoned debate with their opponents.


Apogee, I greatly appreciate your comments and, of course, the discussions we've had over the years. While I believe the thrust of the First Amendment is that the cure for bad speech is more speech, I don't see ST content as a First Amendment issue. This is a private site, and has the right to take those actions that its owners think will optimize its value. It just saddens me to see their apparent judgment that the users of this site need someone to get rid of bad threads. I would rather be among adults who can make that decision for themselves, but the comments I've read over the years make me think that CMac, et al., accurately reflect the overwhelming feeling of ST users.


John
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Apr 22, 2019 - 02:37pm PT
Not since the Civil War has this country had a bigger divide. To ask climbers on a "Climbers Forum" to avoid any political interaction is a sterilization of thought. Climbing, for good or bad is political. Who sits around a campfire without poking the coals and fanning the flames?
Psilocyborg

climber
Apr 22, 2019 - 02:48pm PT
https://www.phantasytour.com/bands/phish/threads

Go there for an unmoderated free for all. If you play rough you might get doxxed
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 22, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
^^^ Problem is, I don't give a crap about what a bunch of undifferentiated people think on a given subject. The world is full of goofballs that bring nothing to a discussion other than the desire to be heard. And that is neither noble nor valuable in itself.

What has set this site apart is that it consists largely of people that I connect with on a fundamental level that transcends this or that (even heated) disagreement.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 22, 2019 - 04:43pm PT
This may be a first,but, I agree.

I even liked the chief.
Wallbanger

Gym climber
Newport beach
Apr 22, 2019 - 06:29pm PT
no politics on this climbing forum nobody cares to hear your political opinions
Wallbanger

Gym climber
Newport beach
Apr 22, 2019 - 06:36pm PT
keep your political opinions to yourself this is a climbing forum we dont care about your biased views on what you think is happening
johntp

Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
Apr 22, 2019 - 06:54pm PT
The thing about political discussions is that no one is going to change anyone's perspective. An exercise in futility.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 22, 2019 - 07:00pm PT
Wallbanger, given yer grammatical liberties it could be a challenge devining yer predilections.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 22, 2019 - 07:17pm PT
SuperTopo is not a Place for Political Discussions


JE (a paragon of rationality IMO) admitted changing his perspective due to "polite" political discussion on ST. Others too.


He did eventually stop participating due to the low signal to noise ratio though.


I certainly have changed my opinion of drug smugglers due to Licky's thread.




ruppell

climber
Apr 22, 2019 - 07:29pm PT
The thing about political discussions is that no one is going to change anyone's perspective. An exercise in futility.

For futile minds.

Does that resemble you?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 22, 2019 - 10:44pm PT

Some political questions:
 Access
 Bolting
 Guiding to Himalayan summits
 The use or non use of Sherpas
 The use of technology to get to the top
 The removal of moss/lichens
 Chipping and chopping
 The use of permanent ropes or ladders along a route
 Chalk and tick-marks on stone
 etc
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 22, 2019 - 11:04pm PT
"The thing about political discussions is that no one is going to change anyone's perspective. An exercise in futility."


Who ever said that was the goal?

I just want to understand the world. Other people have things to teach me.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 22, 2019 - 11:06pm PT
I even liked the chief.

I liked bantering with him, until he stalked me at work. That's one problem with using your real name.

I could disagree with JohnE and we could still be on amiable terms, not that way with The Chief.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 23, 2019 - 04:29am PT
Gary, I did not know that, I will change my opinion.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2019 - 10:00am PT
Likewise: I was 'stalked' by someone with a similar notorious reputation here at ST- he posted personal information here from other web sources, and had threatened violence in earlier posts.

Sh#t like that is going to happen if somebody gets a bug up their arse to go after you- using your name here only makes it easier for them.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 23, 2019 - 10:16am PT
Bring it.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 23, 2019 - 10:30am PT
...Likewise: I was 'stalked' by someone with a similar notorious reputation here at ST- he posted personal information here from other web sources...

I can't imagine the life empty enough to have the time or desire to do something like that.... Freaks...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 23, 2019 - 10:52am PT
Likewise: I was 'stalked' by someone with a similar notorious reputation here at ST- he posted personal information here from other web sources, and had threatened violence in earlier posts.

Sh#t like that is going to happen if somebody gets a bug up their arse to go after you- using your name here only makes it easier for them.

I had a somewhat similar experience, although no threat of violence.
But it is a little unsettling when someone starts posting (irrelevant) details about your life that wouldn't be known just from ST -- it's pretty clear they want you to know they're following you, and presumably not just because they think you're a fascinating person. Definitely made me rethink the wisdom of putting my real name out there.

That and dealing with ridiculous defamation and nonsense (from some idiot "Fat Dad" who said I was pretending to be a lawyer) sort of soured me from posting on ST, although obviously I still do from time to time!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2019 - 10:55am PT
"I'm guessing you were stalked by someone who was an anonymous avatar."

Not in my case. This person's name and location was pretty well known here at ST.

Edit: Of course it's not unique to ST. But it points out the fact that simply using one's real name doesn't reduce the slime factor at all.
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