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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 22, 2019 - 08:55am PT
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Breaking the Rulze. One of the rules that many well known ice climbers tout is Never move up on a placement that is not completely Bomber. I would have to add the disclaimer Except when... Ideally and in a perfect world every placement we make when we are leading or soling is bomber. In real life the world is neither perfect nor always ideal. Sometimes the ice is just crap and the more you swing the worse it is going to get. One of the best examples of this is the Canadian guide swinging 5 times into the top of a massive ice pillar that collapses on the 5th swing. Sometimes we just have to recognize what is sufficient for upward progress and settle for less than bomber. I do this fairly often, especially on thin ice where you can not afford to chop it all away. I rely of footwork and body positioning to attain upward progress that will safely get you past the crap ice to a bomber stick. This requires a delicate touch, confidence and complete understanding of all the factors involved. Often just moving your feet up a few inches gets you to better ice. Ideally you will never do more than one consecutive move on a less than bomber placement but the world is not ideal
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 22, 2019 - 09:06am PT
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There is a reason that the difference between leading and following is considerably greater in ice climbing than in any other form of climbing.
Thanks for keeping it real for folks here most of whom never see the leaves fall off of the trees in their yards.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Mar 22, 2019 - 09:11am PT
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TFPU
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 09:34am PT
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Here is a perfect though extreme example of how and why it is not always prudent to try to get that perfect bomber stick. [Click to View YouTube Video] I recently read a Will Gad article about why you should never move up on a less than bomber stick. Then I watched a video of Will Gad soloing Repentance @ Cathedral Ledge NH. Anyone who has ever led that 3rd pitch will attest that there is no such thing as a bomber stick on the exit moves past the chockstone ;)
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briham89
Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
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Mar 22, 2019 - 09:36am PT
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Hell ya.....climbing post. I'm confused though....were you free soloing or lead solo? There is a rope in one shot and I can't see the rope in the other, but you have screws. I'm curious what device you were using to lead solo ice if you were.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 09:39am PT
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My bad it was Steve House that soloed Repentance.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 09:51am PT
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I Never rope solo on ice. Too much hassle. In the first shot I am leading but being miserly with the screw placements. Saving hardware and gas for the hard part. 2nd shot I am soloing. Myself and most of my friends in the NE that solo ice seem to follow the same system. Ice climbing is 100% gear dependent. If something critical breaks and you have no back up plan you are up the creek without a paddle. I have broken 2 picks soloing and several crampon bails. 1 mono point. Crampons occasionally fall off. The modern crampons completely fall apart when the spacer bar breaks. Soloing anything committing that I could not get off of with one tool and one crampon I wear a harness, carry 4 screws and have a skinny half rope in my pack. If something breaks or the conditions or my head are not right I build an anchor and V thread off. 4 screws. Two to build an anchor, one to make the V thread and one to drop....
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briham89
Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
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Mar 22, 2019 - 10:37am PT
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That makes sense. Thanks for the info!
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2019 - 11:10am PT
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Nice to see climbing content!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Mar 22, 2019 - 11:24am PT
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There is something seriously - SERIOUSLY- wrong with ice climbers.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Mar 22, 2019 - 11:27am PT
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Great and insightful post, Tradman.
As Donini said, the difference between leading vs. top roping on ice is far more pronounced than on rock. This is actually an aspect of climbing ice that has drawn me more to it as I turn into an old fart. With each passing ice season, I find my experience and my ability to make judgement calls on things such as ice conditions increases. It is relatively rare that I find myself in situations I don't feel are familiar, because of all of the years of swinging tools into a medium that is by it's very nature unstable.
With that said, it is an unstable medium, and judgement is never perfect. I have always considered myself to be more of a rock climber than an ice climber, and have always felt climbing ice is a pretty silly thing to do.
But I do love being out in winter conditions, and find it to be a very rewarding, silly thing to do.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 22, 2019 - 11:35am PT
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Soloing anything committing that I could not get off of with one tool and one crampon I wear a harness, carry 4 screws and have a skinny half rope in my pack.
I do too... Most of the guys soloing around here don't however and look at me like I'm nuts... lol. Good to see I'm not alone in my paranoia.
FWIW I've never had a CM/Petzl pick break, ever. Bend sure but not snap. BD picks seem to be much more brittle as many friends have snapped multiple picks.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 11:35am PT
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Cudos for being Silly :) I can only Imagine the horror of My friend Ed Esmonds the sport climber if he was forced to rapell from the fixed threads at this station. I thoughtthe fixed threads were so bomber I only added one screw to the belay as an afterthought. Ed declared that ice is much better suited for cocktails than climbing:)
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 22, 2019 - 11:58am PT
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Ha... I remember climbing with a good friend who was new to ice but had been on a lot of long trad/rock. He stared up as I started up something easy in Smuggs to the left of Dougs Route (the pillar was not in enough for me...). There was a 80' horizontal row of dangling daggers a few hundred feet above and he asked "Can't those fall down?". I replied, "Oh they will, all of them too eventually, but hopefully not today."
Then I needed to find another ice partner for the next trip....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 02:31pm PT
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I used to make Ed go ice climbing once a year. Ed would politely show me all the great spots that should be equipped with 1/2in epoxy bolts for belays, rappels and protection etc. all the while reminding me that fish swim in this water 9 months of the year and exactly why are we climbing it instead of crushing it up and putting it in martinis? After one particularly fun climb where perhaps I made him rappel several hundred feet from a V thread Ed must have decided that Ice climbing was dangerous. The next winter he let some drunken jamoke on a sport fishing boat fall on his leg and break it just so he would have a good excuse to not go ice climbing with me. I never had the heart to talk him into it again..
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Mar 22, 2019 - 03:11pm PT
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SLR, I'm with you, ice climbing is for the mentally impaired.
Not that ice climber aren't the nicest folks in the world...one of my close associates claims to be one.
Tami Knight had them pegged long ago, along with spelunkers.
One was partially brain-damaged while the other was more so.
This is a good thread, however, with FINE pix of ice-picks and good ideas.
And silliness is appreciated.
I'm thinking of the Wicked Witch of the West on an ice pillar, suddenly yelling out, "It's MELTING!"
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Mar 22, 2019 - 03:18pm PT
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One of the best climbing trips I had was an ice climbing trip to Ouray in 2011.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Mar 22, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
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Ice is nice, except when it isn’t. I never thought of rules when ice climbing. One placement at a time. Kind of like aid climbing. Don’t let yourself get too far ahead of where you are right now. Nice post. Nice to see ice that isn’t all picked out making for a less than real experience in my mind. Stay safe at least as safe as the situation allows, have fun that’s the rule.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 07:31pm PT
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Yikes! Hope that is a bolt :) Vt the ice is usually pretty fresh. NH and NY its like sport climbing. follow the holds....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 08:34pm PT
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and yet another crusty ass hat that feels the need to prove how cool he is by cutting someone else down for shareing some stoke...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 08:45pm PT
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I had been thinking about an article that will gad wrote about the do's and don'ts of ice climbing. he made a big stink about never moving up on a less than bomber placement. I thought about that off and on for a few months and finally got around to putting my thoughts into words. I grabbed two shots that were easy to find and that I felt fit the subject. Yes they are both recycled. Its actually unpaid work to put together posts with decent climbing content. something you would have zero clue about since you have only posted 3 photos ever and they are not even yours. sorry if I did not spend more effort for you to come up with something more original for you. thanks for all your positive contributions to the site.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2019 - 08:51pm PT
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I have taken the time to edit and post 2,210 photos on this site with zero compensation. 99% of them are by myself or my partner and are climbing related. thanks for your positive feedback.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Mar 23, 2019 - 12:34am PT
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i do not recall ever feeling like anything on ice was bomber.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2019 - 04:43am PT
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lee vining?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2019 - 04:45am PT
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Often the ice feels perfect. completely bomber with every swing and kick. other times it feels like walking on eggshells stacked up into a house of cards...
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Mar 23, 2019 - 06:57am PT
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Insecure?
Hardly, just sharing
Some Cali ice stoke
Getting some good conditions at red cliffs this year
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2019 - 07:04am PT
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Blade runner seems really interesting! certainly steeper than it looks in the butt shot.. where is that?
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Mar 23, 2019 - 08:05am PT
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Hey tradmanclimbs, I appreciate the post.
Seems very intelligent to carry the kit to bail--I never thought of it. Good thing I never solo climbed much ice.
Carry on and have fun.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Mar 23, 2019 - 08:10am PT
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Adjacent to
Kirkwood ski area@8000’
Usually a short window for climbing
These routes
about 4-5 weeks this time of year
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Mar 23, 2019 - 08:17am PT
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I have only shared a rope once with tradmanclimbs, don't kid yourselves, he's the very definition of a real ice climber. Westerners seem to struggle with the idea routes at Lake Willoughby could be tough, but they are, very tough. Stand under one and you will know. There are but a few pitches at Frankenstein or Cathedral harder than the throw away stuff at Willoughby called the Tablets, which yield two full pitches of 4-4+ any way you go. They don't even name them.
One neat thing about trad is historically he does more with less, not always the latest greatest and plenty of duct tape. We don't see eye to eye politically and on a few other things, but I can assure you he's the real deal.
Regarding the subject at hand, I eventually went with the idea that as long as I felt the screw was solid, I could start moving on hooks, and increase the weld factor the further I got above the gear, and that worked for me. I've been at it 41 years.
Carry on....
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Scott Thelen
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Mar 23, 2019 - 01:29pm PT
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Stewart Johnson is the man!!
Hi Paul...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2019 - 01:53pm PT
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Tomcat. I am completely with you on the closer you are to good gear the lighter your touch can be.....
I love seeing Stewart's and Norms and others crazy western an Alaskan ice shots.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Mar 23, 2019 - 02:29pm PT
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Headed out tomorrow Scotty!
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Mar 23, 2019 - 08:22pm PT
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Tradman, I LOVE your posts and picks. I relate to everything you have posted about ice. I love the stuff.
On the subject of a light touch, the first couple of seasons I climbed ice with my wife Pam, she developed the lightest touch on ice I have ever seen. Admittedly she was seconding my leads, but she still impressed me every time with her deft touch. Gotta love a woman who will go out and climb ice with ya.,
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