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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 21, 2019 - 04:35am PT
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Out of money, out of food, and my heating oil just ran out last night. I f*#king hate asking for help, it makes me feel very uncomfortable, but I don’t know what else to do. Starting a new job next week, but I’m in a really tight spot. I’m good for the money, and it really sucks asking for help. Life isn’t easy sometimes.
And, any naysayers should keep their traps shut. Now is not the time for negativity. Thanks.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 21, 2019 - 07:03am PT
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Hey folks, I just want to chime in: I spoke with the dude last night.
This does not seem to me to be fabricated or "sponge" manipulative behavior in that: 1) I had never spoken with Brandon, and he sounded super excited to have found that new job close to home. It sounds like a job I might like; 2) I felt that Brandon was forthright with me about recent developments in his journey, as I was with him about those in my own journey; and 3) He did not ask me personally for financial assistance, probably because he picked up on the fact that I am not in a spot where I can do so at the moment. I have never given to a GoFundMe (ever), but Brandon's openness and readiness to rely on the greater group here versus some kinda 1:1 request for assistance impresses upon me that this is probably "legitimate" and a worthwhile stopgap assistance measure for folks that are currently in position to help out.
What is the best way for folks to help get you some ducats for to keep yourself and your home and your pups primed for you to be work-ready Brandon?
I'll probably give you a call at some point soon dude, and we can enjoy a fun German game - first, one of us can tell a story of recent self-loathing und angst, then the other one enjoys a good bellyful of schadenfreude and we can both laugh at the fact that we are both (relatively) rich enough suffer the weltschmerz.
When I find that 100 karat N Fk Poudre diamond, I'll share in the good fortune with you. For now, I'm rooting for you brother-man.
We are motivated by the joy of taking care of one another and the trust that when we are in need, our community will take care of us in return. We do not give to gain leverage over others or to add philanthropy to our resumes. For many people with aboriginal roots, the act of giving brings us closer together and is a loving commitment to our community. But in European American culture, which is built on property ownership and saving for oneself, giving is seen as a sacrifice sometimes resulting in feelings of loss or of giving up something. This type of system feels isolating, distrusting, unbalanced, and lonely in the context of some first nation or indigenous cultures.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2019 - 07:52am PT
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Upon further consideration, I’d like to rescind my request. I’m no more worthy of help than anyone else. Yes, my life is a bag of sh#t right now, but who am I to think that my travails are more prescient than anyone elses? I’m just being selfish, and that’s not ok. I owe all of you a huge, huge apology. If I learned anything in AA, it’s how to be humble. I need to learn how to be humble and ego free as best I can once again. I’m so sorry.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 21, 2019 - 07:58am PT
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My statement still stands. If a brother's got a ducat to share, I say share it. I think this is legit. I'm rooting for you to be ready to get and keep that gig, but you're the captain of your own ship amigo.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 21, 2019 - 07:58am PT
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Go donate some plasma and get on welfare, begging is for the weak.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Feb 21, 2019 - 08:10am PT
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Hey Brandon, good on you. Pride has been the downfall of many a person. If your able bodied, there are usually always jobs that no one else wants to do, and waiting to be done. There is no shame in even the lowest work, and even lower stress.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2019 - 08:20am PT
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begging is for the weak.
Weird. So when you replied did you just choose to not read a single word that I wrote? Seriously, did you read anything? I’d love to point fingers and call names, but that would just make me as d#@&%ey as you. Lol, you know what I just did there.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 21, 2019 - 08:37am PT
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being an as#@&%e is for the weak.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 21, 2019 - 09:08am PT
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Unfortunately, I need to focus on getting my sister paid back for her loan to have my brake work done, and soon it is travel east time, so I pretty much have to stay focused on that. What I can offer is some suggestions, and as you said - humility. There is no shame in being vulnerable and in need; it's on the person who reacts, how their reaction goes, and not on the vulnerable one. As they say in AA, and elsewhere, "To Thine Own Self Be True."
 Don't drink, no matter what.
Someone once told me that all humility is, is being "right-sized." Interesting way to view it.
The plasma thing. I know people have done it, and find it a good way to get a fair sum of cash, while helping some others anonymously. I came close to that point(going to sell plasma) but my pride told me "not needed, yet."
Call your creditors before things get turned off, and explain the situation.
AA meetings have coffee and cookies. Coffee has no calories, but I do recall going through a short period in my life where those 2 or 3 cookies were a part of my caloric coverage for the day.
People in AA meetings have taken a hungry new member to the diner, when they shared their situation in a meeting. No guarantee, of course, but by being vulnerable by sharing the honest truth, it provides insight, and in the long run that is priceless.
If you are willing to do small tasks for immediate cash, say so. People often have small tasks they're willing to pay you for. When you get such a task offered, do it to the best of your ability. If you don't want to do small tasks, you're not as hungry as you think. No offense, but I have discovered this myself. I am not a very humble person. Even so, I have done small tasks that annoyed the hell out of me to have to do.
Food Bank: Go. Today. Spices and flavorings can go a long way in making pasta and a milk and flour roux(gravy) go a long way. Or a can of beans. Unless your wife cleaned out the pantry, I bet you have Salt, Pepper, Oregano and the like. If you like something sweet(I do), rice pudding is the best. Cooked rice, mixed in a little sugar, vanilla if you have it, and milk. Heat it up and let it cool down to thicken. Those things make very bland food palatable, and I heaven knows I have been actually really happy with some of the things I concocted out of my "I have no food" items in the bin.
Did you go, yet to social services?
Animals: Call your local ASPCA and ask them if there is any assistance available for feeding your pets in the short term. They may have a program, or some ideas. It might be an option to ask pet-loving friends if they can foster your pet short term, until you get back to work and earning a paycheck. Just don't forget that it is short term only. Maybe you can do dog walks for the person who has doggy as a guest for their own dog, and is at work all day.
AA meetings up the wazoo. You aren't working yet, so there's absolutely no reason to not be going to at least a meeting a day. Or two, or three. The meetings will help you stay focused on the present, and will present opportunities otherwise unavailable to you. Go early and help set up. Stay to help put the chairs away. If asked to go to the diner after, go. You CAN say "I haven't money, but I'd like to come along and have company."
I know - you are thinking "I'm going to lose my home. I need to deal with something of THAT magnitude."
Untrue. You need to deal with this moment in time, and only this moment in time, impossible/uncomfortable as that may seem. Ask yourself - Do I have what I need right now? Not at the end of the month, or beginning of next week, or tomorrow morning or even in two hours. Do I have what I need, right now. If the answer is not yes, think harder. Stay in the present.
Once you get back to work, earning a paycheck, you may be able to focus on some things further down the road. But that time is not now, and there are many things that can change and happen between now and then.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Feb 21, 2019 - 10:56am PT
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Anything to sell?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 21, 2019 - 11:27am PT
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The codependency has run high in these threads and I have to acknowledge that among my own reasons for posting to a few of them.
My point is you chose in your second post to not to make this [another] thread about begging, so don't.
Stirring up drama and leaning on others to make due and provide emotional support (or more likely more of chaos you're used to and still seem to need) is typical of alcoholics.
Call your utilities, go find a food bank and apply for welfare. I concur with happi and flip - strive for independent adult behavior even when things are at their worst. I pay taxes, so do you, this a part of what they are for.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 21, 2019 - 11:34am PT
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Wise suggestions from Happi.... I might just have to give her a Fluke multimeter.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 21, 2019 - 11:44am PT
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Best wishes, but if "I need to learn how to be humble and ego free as best I can once again. I’m so sorry." were true, I would think you'd just take down the thread (and its earlier buddy).
So, I guess, there's the challenge. Take down the thread and depend upon the good will of those who actually know you or are in a position to get to know you (I'm not). Or keep the thread up and pretend to be "humble" while REALLY insisting that you need the help of piles of people who don't even know you more than the others that we help in our everyday lives.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 21, 2019 - 12:20pm PT
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Humility is, as I posted earlier, about being right sized. Its not about being independent, not asking for help when we need it, or hiding our vulnerability.
Help, or don't help, for whatever your reasons, but unless we are in a position to really know the circumstances of another, it's probably better to not assume we do.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 21, 2019 - 12:29pm PT
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^^^ Absolutely! And NO thread of this sort is going to in-principle provide any of us with the relevant information.
We're not even in a position to ask some REALLY relevant questions like, "When's the last drink you had? Really? Even when you were alone?" And so on. And alcoholics/addicts LIE. Even to themselves. And without very specialized training, a lot of experience, and ongoing engagement, you CANNOT know when they are lying.
It's not "judgmental" to ask (and expect answers to) discerning questions. And it's codependent to pretend that such questions are not front and center!
So, a thread like this really is uselessly narcissistic. People that are in a position to KNOW and help are going to do so without any such thread. And people that are not will not be substantively benefited by any such thread.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 21, 2019 - 12:58pm PT
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For certain, please, if anyone can spare a few or some dollars, 2 tens, or a hundred whatever you can, hello it is for Brandon.
Many are deserving & in need - this is a hardscrabble time of year.
Here, there are 5 mouths to feed; I count the dog and the rescued egg-laying Nandee Conure & a chickadee, as one.
The hot water heater is turned off. We turn it on once a week, then crawl under the stairs and mop up the leak.(we have stairs) I never go into how it is that I do so swell living in one of the wealthy zip codes as I do. . . .
I had left a poor me rant,
I deleted it.
The Wife made me,
& there is that I have that
not a small thing to have
& have it to do too!
I look at my blessings
celebrate that the glass is glass!
No longer a waxed paper cup
from the shelter or worse.
I have what I have
make do the best that I can
I do pretty good really
All things considered
I'm white in a house on a street
Had been somethin'else, middle of a dead orchard
there is beauty in my neighbor's yards
as well as chocking smoke
it is what it is
It is all good
I add this for now to be sure to explain WHY I HAVE ADDED THE ART ,
I HAVE A LEAKY ROOF over a leaky slab & An indoor private SHjTTER, NOT SO MUCH FOR THE ARTIST WHO IS TO PROUD & NOT A QUITTER.
The Wise Woman's art, support her, buy her work it's art
Jewelry at http://www.TalismanToo.Etsy.com
Chalkbags at http://www.ClimbAddictDesigns.Etsy.com
She Has Silver - Pay the extra for the Silver!
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 21, 2019 - 03:51pm PT
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Haha...I thought he meant a Fluke Multimeter because he thought it was a fluke I'd make a good suggestion.
I don't want to have this thread hijacked to me..... Brandon is seriously not in a good place, no matter if someone thinks its of his own doing. It is! And I'm sure he knows that. But he's still in a bad place and has asked for help
I'm going to look up his email add and PayPal $10. I know its not much but relative to my own situation, it's what I can do without impinging on other obligations and taking care of myself(which must come first, if one is to be available for others). Another spiritual axiom is "In giving, we receive." I've found that very true.
And if one attaches strings and conditions to a gift, that's not really a gift then. Nothing WRONG with having prerequisites on receiving something-that's what commerce is based upon-but the expected return ought to be stated up front and certainly no go unsaid but still expected.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Feb 21, 2019 - 04:47pm PT
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Brandon if you can raise enough money, go to India on a spiritual journey. You can set off from the Wigwam.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2019 - 05:24pm PT
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fear. I have a multi meter and jesus h godblasted christ it has way too many setting and readings and dials and stuff. I do better with a simple test light... about the only thing I ever actually figured out with the multi meter is I can see how many volts my alternator is putting out. On the astro I don't even need that function as the astro actually has a volt meter instead of an idiot light....
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2019 - 05:31pm PT
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Obviously, you've never had to do real vehicular troubleshooting nor have a clue how to do such a thing.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Feb 21, 2019 - 05:53pm PT
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Sorry for the drift. Happie, take the Fluke; good brand. Nice to be able to read amps and ohms (and I guess mohs) too ....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 21, 2019 - 06:41pm PT
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Brandon, whats yer contact info?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2019 - 07:25pm PT
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btmayo79@gmail
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 21, 2019 - 07:34pm PT
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I gotta say, Happi's wire work has gotten super impressive. TFPU Gnome (people prob don't say that all the time, but I mean it).
Sitting Bull was asked by a reporter why his people loved and respected him. the leader replied by asking if it was not true that among white people a man is respected because he has many horses, many houses? When the reporter replied that was indeed true, Sitting Bull then said that his people respected him because he kept nothing for himself.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Feb 21, 2019 - 08:07pm PT
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brave cowboi...great quote....thanks...
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Feb 21, 2019 - 08:28pm PT
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So, a thread like this really is uselessly narcissistic.
"Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone."
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D Murph
climber
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Feb 21, 2019 - 11:55pm PT
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Not sure what the demand is where you live, but maybe drive for Uber / Lyft?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Feb 22, 2019 - 12:28am PT
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hey there say, Brandon_... i had a bit of extra, but, it is tiny and already commited... and-- my patty had an emergency...
so, for someone like me, i just 'roll' with the 'when and if able' at the 'end of the months' ...
i need much MUCH careful plan and prudent, to be a good steward of the bit that i have...
however:
i do not mean this 'trite' but:
i will give you three days of fasting... i give it to my children and to those that are sick, or hurt and for emergencies...
it is 'going the extra mile' in prayers, and i have seen
very good solid, and extrememly helpful OPEN DOORs for others,
when i do this...
and, i know you are having troubles... so i will give this...
remember, too, to take time to pray, and humbly ask god, too...
it may not seem like it now, but, looking back, later, you
will see he is there and has been helping, when
the times are right...
:)
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2019 - 07:30am PT
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You guys are great. Denied a loan, but I’ll persevere. Found my space heater, and it’s only in the 30’s right now. I’ll be ok, sorry for being so dramatic. I’ve got one room in the house up to 55*, life is good!
And as far as Uber, my car is in the shop until I get a paycheck in three weeks. Hitching time. Anyhow, there is no Uber around here, it’s a town of 3k people. No market for that sort of thing. I’ll just be that sketchy guy hitching, because nobody hitches here.
It’s like Bob said, ‘don’t worry, about a thing,every little thing, gonna be alright’. So true.
The glass is always half full.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Feb 22, 2019 - 10:49am PT
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Damn, if you were in LA I could put you to work at good pay for a few weeks. I'm managing a construction project and a bit short handed.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Feb 22, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
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hey there say, Brandon_ ... say, good you got the space heater...
you JUST triggered some memories of mine-- oh my...
i remember for about three winters (about 14 years ago)-- until my dad found out, that:
i was living with it so cold in my house, before i TURNED the heat on,
that i could see my breath--
and the olive oil turned cloudy..
i was just waiting to get through, until feb-- so i would have
enough to pay for that one momth...
:)
AND-- i was determined to 'cause my family to have to help, and
i did have a job-- it just did not pay much for the heat...
it was always feb, before i turned it on, here in mich...
it needed a 'wrench' to turn it on, for the pilot, etc...
and my ex son in law would come over and turn it on...
did not have a bird then, and the cats were okay...
so-- you WILL be fine...
(had a 'mega below 0' sleeping bag, too, so that helped helped, and
during the day, i was at work...
but is MUCH MORE nicer, that you got that heater!!!
best wishes, too, for the job...
still praying...
here's to more things working out good...
and then-- into a better future!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2019 - 04:57pm PT
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Dogs make great heaters when a space heater is your only electronic source. It’s going to be a long cold weekend. Work starts next week!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2019 - 05:10pm PT
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Seriously, 150# of dog heats the bed pretty well!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2019 - 05:12pm PT
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And yeah, the olive oil is cloudy.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2019 - 05:15pm PT
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It’s tough to just hate your life entirely, while stating publicly that you love it. The dichotomy sucks.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 22, 2019 - 05:48pm PT
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The proud new wheels '98 Caprice Classic copasetic color scheme, junkyard door and straightened frame Why haven't I done this before? talk about how we can't circle the dwain?
Why didn't I think to open a thread describing how I stretch
a paultry (&meager for 5) remittance, that falls to, after the 27 ,(comes in, and then, is gone. . .) into a luxury filled life of plenty?
why don't I do it?
ok ok
I hear yeah,
I know place & time
and all that
Good to the last drop?
we ran out of coffee & garlic today
So id swear but what follows will anger enough...
For certain, please, if anyone can spare a few or some dollars, 2 tens, or a hundred whatever you can, hello it is for Brandon.
Many are deserving & in need - this is a hardscrabble time of year.
Here, there are 5 mouths to feed; I count the dog and the rescued egg-laying Nandee Conure & a chickadee, as one.
The hot water heater is turned off. We turn it on once a week, then crawl under the stairs and mop up the leak.(we have stairs)
I never go into how it is that I do so swell living in one of the wealthy zip codes as I do. I don't look for charity, can't. I won't. I scan the roads for cast offs; dishwashers washer & dryer sets. people who got huge profits from tax reform stripped out whole houses, kitchens & baths, leaving those fixtures on the curb.
Cloths all come from those drop boxes in parking lots. The bundled utilities electric bill, Mort&home,car,payment/insurancez, food, ARE THE PRIORITIES, All else waits. In two days the services; phone & internet will be suspended so this may stay long enough, or I'll think better & delete it. These are lean times, with thick impenetrable costs there are things going on - debts building. We mostly, keep the heat turned off too. At the base of the stairs, the hole in the center of the 2 bed room slab built split-level, is where we burn fallen sticks & branches in a broken, broke-windowed electric fired pellet stove that I lite by hand. . . . . .
I had left a poor me rant,
I deleted it.
The Wife made me,
and there is that I have that too!
I look at my blessings
celebrate that the glass is glass!
No longer a waxed paper cup from the shelter.
I have what I have
make do the best that I can
I do pretty good really
All things considered
I'm white in a house on a street
Had been somethin'else, middle of a dead orchard
there is beauty in my neighbor's yards
as well as chocking smoke
it is what it is
It is all good
I add this for now to be sure to explain:
WHY I HAVE ADDED THE ART ,
I HAVE A LEAKY ROOF over a leaky slab & An indoor private SHjTTER, NOT SO MUCH FOR THE ARTIST WHO IS TO PROUD & NOT A QUITTER.
The Wise Woman's art, support her, buy her work it's art
Jewelry at http://www.TalismanToo.Etsy.com
Chalkbags at http://www.ClimbAddictDesigns.Etsy.com
She Has Silver - Pay the extra for the Silver!
Brandon, yes yes I do care!
And good on you for putting it out here,
Honesty forthrightness - straight to the point, in the attempt alone the directness, is what sets you out as a climber.
With a work at it attitude that helps you to see that it is always more than less , of course, more is needed! more is better more would be so nice! I hope some help.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2019 - 06:00pm PT
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F*#king A, Gnome, youre a strange gude, but you seem to care. Thank you.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2019 - 06:01pm PT
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Meant to say, dude. Not Gude.
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McGinnis
climber
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Feb 22, 2019 - 06:17pm PT
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Read Happiegrrrl2’s first post in this thread multiple times a day, every day. Memorize it and apply it to your situation, your life. Her words of wisdom and her practical advice are astoundingly profound.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2019 - 06:43pm PT
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Goddamnit, Terrie, you’re so right. The reason I declined your offer for assistance is because I felt undeserving of it. Everything you wrire makes so much sense. I have been given assistance for heating oil, my electric bill is being paid, and my car bill is being paid by some super kind benefactors, hopefully. There is a conglomerate of churches that provide assistance. They are trying to get my car out of the shop, $400, and it’s the first time I’ve ever asked for help in this way. I’ve never put myself in this situation before, and it’s super humbling to do so. Life is strange sometimes, the iindness of strangers is both rewarding and humbling. It’s a strange experience.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 23, 2019 - 04:26am PT
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Words of wisdom are fine and are the most a forum can provide but heed that old axiom...actions speak louder than words.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 23, 2019 - 06:29am PT
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Brandon-I'm not sure what offer you declined. The suggestion to go to social services or the heat assistance? Hardly an offer! I know it sucks and that society has done a swell job at shaming people about it but, but once a person has food in their belly, other things become possible. I know. When you're hungry-really hungry-it makes it hard to do much else but obsess about food. Not good for amy one, and certainly not for a recovering alcoholic.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 23, 2019 - 07:14am PT
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Every day is a new day. If you really want to get your sh#t together just do it. Construction is so busy right now I find it hard to believe that you can't walk on to a jobsite with your tools and get a job. Ditch the drama and start fresh every day.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Feb 23, 2019 - 10:21am PT
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Brandon, I thought you had lots of job offers, including lodging, on another post you put up.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Feb 23, 2019 - 10:40am PT
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It’s tough to just hate your life entirely, while stating publicly that you love it. The dichotomy sucks.
1. If it's tough to just hate your life entirely then you still enjoy some aspect of it.
2. Stating publicly that you love life is a euphemism.
3. That we love/hate life is a paradox.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 10:55am PT
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Life is pardoxical sometimes. My soon to be ex wife is coming by with her parents tomorrow morning to clean out her stuff. She already took all my money, she may as well come and clean out her mess. I turned a 500/sf room into her own personal closet, and it’s completely filled with stuff. Add to that her overflow in the dining room, kitchen, extra bedroom, and mud room, and I’ll be super glad to be rid of her stuff. Borderline hoarder, I need a renter and can’t get one in untill her stuff is gone. As much as I love her, it’s kind of good riddance, so to speak.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 23, 2019 - 11:17am PT
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Tell them you're recording and keep your mouth shut. Dude - I wouldn't even be home. One step further, if I felt the need, I'd create a pile in the garage or under a tarp outside the house and change the locks - and then I wouldn't be home. Relying on others to act or finding yourself victim to the actions of others is yet another characteristic of alcoholics.
You're living poor in a town of 3k? No wonder you drink! It's a well documented fact - no social + no economic opportunity = alcoholism. GTFO!
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Feb 23, 2019 - 11:37am PT
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Brandon, I thought you had lots of job offers, including lodging, on another post you put up.
I have been in Brandon's situation multiple times in my life but with the booze problem
My first priority was always to find a job as fast as possible.
What has stopped you from accepting the job offers you have gotten?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 11:52am PT
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I’m in contact with my mother in law. She just sent me a meme of her hugging me, she’s pretty great. That said, she’s going to give me a heads up as to when they are coming by tomorrow morning. A super long run is in order. I will not be here when they are here. Actually, my ex has a ton of stuff, maybe a long hike is more appropriate.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 11:56am PT
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People keep paypaling me money, but my wife took my bank account, so paypal doesn’t work. The money is there, so I’ll have to figure something out. Otherwise, money order or western union would be easiest. I live in Warner NH. I’d open a new account, but I don’t have any money to do so. Therein lies the dilemna.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 12:16pm PT
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She was given over 1k while I was away and it was money that was due to me. I asked for some of it two days ago and was denied. Honestly, I actually only asked for twenty bucks for groceries, and she still said no. It’s her account, so I’m pretty much SOL. I had my paychecks direct deposited into her account because I trusted her completely. That was a huge mistake. I’m such a fool.
In regards to the job offers, now that I’m single, the home is my responsibility, so I can’t head west where the work was offered. Got to take care of the place. New job on Monday though, so that’s a good thing. Less pay than I’m used to, but it should still pay the bills. Hopefully, at least. Sometimes god tests you by throwing a ton of problems your way. I’m sharing my problems publicly, but doing my best to tend to them personally. Some of you have helped financially, but I haven’t figured out how to recieve the loot. Your kindness hasn’t gone unnoticed, trust me.
Edit; BJ, she’s my mother in law, for crying out loud. We love each other. She’s decidedly not coming on to me.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 12:25pm PT
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You sometimes crack me up, bit you’re a jerk for sure.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 12:31pm PT
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Treezy, tell me more.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 12:46pm PT
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Robert, money order to Brandon Mayo, 1 Melvin Rd, Warner NH 03278. That’s the best I can come up with right now.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 23, 2019 - 01:37pm PT
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In most states that house is marital property even if her name is not on the deed. Consider that in the context of how important that $1k is to you, she obviously thinks otherwise. I'm fairly certain a small town lawyer needing to feed his own family would love to bill some time against the sale of that place at $300 / hr. If it were me in your shoes I'd get divorce papers signed asap - and be willing and ready to move.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 23, 2019 - 02:09pm PT
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I had my paychecks direct deposited into her account because I trusted her completely. That was a huge mistake. I’m such a fool.
No you’re not. That’s how marriage his supposed to work IMO. You should trust each other and share everything.
I can’t speak from direct experience. I’ve been lucky to not be an addict and my marriage has worked but I’ve seen what friends and relatives have gone through.
Your biggest concern should be the alcoholism. It killed my grand father, another relative can’t get free, but at least he’s a functioning alcoholic who waits until after work. But one relative has beat it. They do a lot of running and biking now so I imagine they have replaced one addiction with a much healthier one. I’ve seen how hard it is.
The divorce is just time. As soon as you meet someone new you’ll be over it. Same with finances you’ll come out the other side at some point.
I would take a wild guess and say your ex felt betrayed by your drinking, it broke her heart and she moved on. At that point you weren’t her partner anymore you were just someone to watch out for.
As mentioned most states are community property. The house, the checking account etc. The less argument about things now the more they will be resolved easier in the future. If lawyers get involved they may get more money than either of you. Eg if you ask for money and she says no don’t argue or get upset just explain your situation and why you have a right to it. But again if she says no let it go.
She may not want anything to do with the house. And may be willing to walk away if you don’t press her about money in the accounts in her name. I’d just suggest being fair and compromising it keeping track of everything as best you can so if she decides she does want equity out of the house you can deduct anything you are owed.
If you can’t pay a mortgage: Lenders would almost always prefer to keep you in the house and have you start paying again so it may make sense to tell them your situation, but don’t pay them anything until you have a plan worked out for payment moving forward. If you pay anything now you give up Leverage and they may just use it for penalties. Talk to a lawyer, or look up advice online
I hope things work out. Just like climbing a big wall take it one move at a time just focus on doing the right thing right now.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 02:54pm PT
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Fet, you’re spot on, painfully.
And BJ, I’m the only one on the mortgage.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Feb 23, 2019 - 02:56pm PT
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are you also the only one on the title?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 23, 2019 - 03:04pm PT
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If lawyers get involved they may get more money than either of you. Eg if you ask for money and she says no don’t argue or get upset just explain your situation and why you have a right to it. But again if she says no let it go. Yes. Definitely.
The name on the deed and mortgage come second to marital property laws in the state.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 03:32pm PT
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We were renting from my family, neither of us own.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 23, 2019 - 03:43pm PT
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the Fet: pretty reasonable assessment.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Feb 23, 2019 - 04:16pm PT
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And BJ, I’m the only one on the mortgage. We were renting from my family, neither of us own.
If you are renting you don't have a mortgage, there is no real property and no home equity to divide.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 04:22pm PT
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I’m the one paying rent, and working to establish a mortgage. My family wants to sell the place to me.
But, you’re correct.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Feb 23, 2019 - 04:30pm PT
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Brandon, paying the rent on time as specified in your lease is an excellent way to establish credit. Most renters pay by check and when they want to buy a house the mortgage company can ask for copies of the front and back of 12 months of the deposited rent check, but I think you said you do not have a bank account so that won't work to establish credit.
If someday you apply for mortgage money to buy a house, that house you are renting for example, then the lender would send a letter to the person you rent from asking if you pay on time. Obviously no lates on car payments or credit cards are also important to qualify for a mortgage someday, along with a letter to your employer to verify your job and income.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Feb 23, 2019 - 04:32pm PT
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"New Hampshire and most of the states east of the Mississippi are what are called “Equitable Division” states, meaning that the division of assets can be disproportionate."
So not a community property state.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 04:36pm PT
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Yeah Norton, I’m trying to establish credit. I don’t have bad credit, I have no credit. Apparently I need to secure credit to establish it.which means that I need to get back to work to make enough money to secure credit. It’s a shitty road to walk, but I chose to live a debit free lifestyle until now, to my detriment.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 23, 2019 - 04:44pm PT
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People could also choose to buy you heating oil or pay for your car repairs if they're a little suspect of sending cash.
Maybe provide info for that.
I'm not saying you'd blow cash on booze but anyone who doesn't know you might be leary of that.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 23, 2019 - 04:47pm PT
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I'm totally confused. I wish only the best for Brandon.
Did you detox Brandon? A hard question, but one that needs to be asked.
Thing is Brandon, some of us posting are recovering alcoholics. Others have lived with alcoholics. We recognize when games are being played.
I don't mean to be harsh, just calling it as I see it.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 04:53pm PT
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Ironically, my local Community Action Program bought me 150 gallons of #2 heating oil yesterday. The local church consortium is going to pay for my car repair and also my electric bill on Monday. No further assistance is needed. My town hooked it up, please stop contributing funds to me, they are not needed. It would be easy to keep accepting funds, but that would be facetious of me, and that’s not how I roll. You all have been so generous, thank you so, so much. I’ve been a train wreck, and you all have been so supportive. I don’t know how to thank you other than to just say thank you.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 04:54pm PT
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John, I have detoxed.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 04:57pm PT
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BJ, I just did. Stop being so critical and just accept the fact that both my ex wife and I chose to live a credit free lifestyle. Sure, you may not believe me, but I don’t care. I’m not a liar.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 23, 2019 - 05:40pm PT
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Try to stay out of court if possible. Sounds like there is nothing to go to court over nor the funds to get there if there were. Easiest divorce ever. There is likely a government website you can download the papers from, instructions on how to file them - and you'll be done with this and move on. If her parents had any sense, those papers would be on their way over tomorrow, frankly.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Feb 23, 2019 - 05:41pm PT
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Brandon,
With any money sent to you to help you out, go open a checking account if you do not have one now. Then pay your rent on time with a check, that will be used to establish credit in the even you want to buy a house or get a car loan some future day.
Keep the checking very clean, no overdrafts, request physical copies of the front and back of your cancelled rent check to prove good credit. You can also have your present landlord report you good rent payments to the the credit reporting bureaus like Equifax.
Remember, you DO have credit going now with the rent payments, keep it clean and document it with bank checks, I owned a mortgage company trust me on this.
When you get on your feet get a credit card, use it and make the payment on time, this is also establishing your credit.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Feb 23, 2019 - 05:51pm PT
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Glad things are getting sorted out. Also, very cool to hear that a community helps their neighbors. If you aren't accepting help, maybe post the contact info. of the groups that have helped you. Sounds like good folks. Hang in there.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Feb 23, 2019 - 06:26pm PT
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After my daughter finished grad school she and I wanted to get her a decent credit score. Turned out to be pretty hard to get a credit card for her, the old Catch 22; it was suggested she get a card where she deposited cash against the balance. The solution was to get a card from my bank in both her and my name. I put Netflix on it with the $12 balance paid automatically every month. In two years she had a 790 credit score. Starting at the age of 40..... don't know, but start you must if you actually want to get a mortgage. First thing to do is open a checking account and make sure you don't bounce checks.
You said you didn't take jobs in the west because you had a house you were buying, but now you say you rent from your family. I can't see how that prevented you from taking up some of those pretty sweet work offers from your previous thread.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 23, 2019 - 06:50pm PT
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Recall, when Brandon posted about working on the west side of country, he was actively drinking and wrote he was doing so to give his wife space.
Then, the whole doctor/detox/plane ticket to the friend and so on, and so on.
Then back home without much more than a pot to piss in... When he wrote last week about hitting the road, I had to laugh... Even I know ya don't get far in a rig when ta have no money for gas.
And he didn't even HAVE a vehicle& it was in the shop with no funds to get it out of hock.
This is classic early sobriety insanity(or slipped, god forbid but if so, get back in the sober pony saddle and ride).
But seriously, in early sobriety, IMO, it would be a not great idea. Better to stay put, get some regular AA meetings established and participate. Get some sober sealegs, and a sponsor you can develop a resentment on, let that resentment fester like a boil in the middle of your back that you just can't reach...and don't drink.
To go somewhere you are unfamiliar with, without funds to deal with the simplest of things like shelter and food. Not a good sober choice.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Feb 23, 2019 - 07:40pm PT
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Recall, when Brandon...
Well, I haven't been following this that closely, just some brief glimpses so no, I don't recall; the story just seems to keep changing...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 23, 2019 - 08:31pm PT
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2 quick questions - did you grow up in that house - and where is your mother right now?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 23, 2019 - 11:09pm PT
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I chose to live a debit free lifestyle until now, to my detriment.
The glass half full way to look at it is you don’t have a bunch of debt to worry about. Plenty of divorces involve one spouse having spent a lot of money frivolously and the debt getting split 50/50. No credit is much better than tens or hundreds of thousands of debt.
Mortgages are often good debt. In the long run you are often better of buying a house with a loan vs renting. You’d have to pay rent anyway and lose all that money, your house often appreciates, you deduct the interest from your income on your taxes.
Credit cards are great IF you pay them off every month. I get a lot of money back in rebates and it’s way more convenient than cash, but if you don’t have the discipline or ability to pay them off every month don’t risk getting one.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 11:10pm PT
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Yes, early sobriety, but it’s successful so far.
Yes, I grew up in the house. My mom and grandma live two doors down. I’m fixing to buy it.
I’ll show you photos of the place and the property, it’s pretty sweet. Right on the river, beach in the backyard. Class three standing wave when the water is running, fun little surf wafe. Bouldering 1/8 mile away. A little slice of paradise, that’s why I’m trying to hang onto it.
No, you can’t see photos of my family, weirdos.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2019 - 11:25pm PT
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If anyone is on the east coast, I’m going to run Franconia Ridge this morning. Feel free to hang out. My running isn’t super fast, so don’t be intimidated. Tradmanclimbs? You out there?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 23, 2019 - 11:31pm PT
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You are about 1.5 hours from where I grew up in North Mass. sounds like a great area and property. You’re close enough to cities for work etc but in the country, nice.
If your family owns the property outright maybe they could sell to you with a promissory note (a mortgage). Write it up all legal. There is a minimum government mandated interest rate, it’s very low.
But I wouldn’t worry about that right now. Focus on your sobriety, job, divorce, in that order IMO.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 24, 2019 - 07:08am PT
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IMO, you need to get out of that house. Alcoholics drink instead of maturing and for reasons I can only speculate on the details, my read on what's been presented is that you're still 18 and fear growing up and leaving that house. AA won't fix this. A few years of therapy might help.
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urban burnout
Mountain climber
industrial park
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Feb 24, 2019 - 08:04am PT
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ah f*#k beejay; wisdom and life skill wane and wax, eh? lunar-like.
for example, i just now took a piss and forgot to shake it out and
now the inside of my pant leg is all wet and i'm out framing in the snow; f*#king life skills; c-
right now, brandon, you are not well. things are not well.
so lower your shoulder and find the 'navigating not well mood."
many of us have and are within the not-well landscape.
don't avoid it, though. drag your bruised self thru.
like walking ridges. is good. running. drawing leaves.
volunteer somewhere.
our f*#king soft culture insists that we avoid discomfort.
f*#k trump america. help yourself out. help others.
you'll emerge someday, well again. and hopefully
there will be a beautiful and understanding lady by your side.
and occupying your space will be a better man, because of your
journey thru alcoholism.
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urban burnout
Mountain climber
industrial park
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Feb 24, 2019 - 08:06am PT
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the fact that you're praying about
an internet thread is more f*#king ridiculous.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Feb 24, 2019 - 08:29am PT
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Q. Is it rude to be just a little suspicious of strangers soliciting for money on the internet?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Feb 24, 2019 - 09:11am PT
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IMO, you need to get out of that house. Alcoholics drink instead of maturing and for reasons I can only speculate on the details, my read on what's been presented is that you're still 18 and fear growing up and leaving that house. AA won't fix this. A few years of therapy might help. Probably the most ignorant thing I've ever read on ST considering the circumstances.
Brandon- love that house with everything you have. It's your only asset and you have the skills to improve it at penny's on the dollar. You already know this.
Get a sponsor who knows your game. A person who's only reimbursement is the satisfaction of helping another soul going through something they know well. I watched my sister fight alcoholism off and on well into her 50's. She ate therapists and expensive rehab clinics for lunch- usually exacerbating her problems with prescription drugs she effortlessly conned them out of. The only solid sobriety she enjoyed (for about 10 years), was due to a tough and supportive AA group who brought to bear all the experience of how to expose and confront the con that addicts play.
And most of all- show up to work tomorrow and every day without a pitty dick in your mouth- nobody cares. Here's what your boss cares about- Early is on time, on time is late and late is unacceptable. Write everything down including; your bosses daily instructions, job info, hours and tasks completed. This will instill and enhance your carpentry and business acumen. Take the plans home to study, read construction books, watch videos and work on your own time to become a true tradesman.
Fill the dark places in your mind with a sense of pride. Re-devote yourself to being the most valuable employee possible while helping others around you as a simple and honest exercise.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2019 - 09:50am PT
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Contractor seems like a good dude, I’m not irrational, just going through a rough time
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 24, 2019 - 09:52am PT
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There are Peter Pan issues at play.
Oh for crying out loud - there are Peter Pan issues at play in at least 60% of the people who post on this forum. And yet, some of these people are fully capable of getting through life.
Early sobriety is a roller coaster of emotions, drama, fear, frustration, wonder, amazement and overwhelm. I remember at about 30 days when I walked past a window box of plants that I'd see JUST the day before and was wowed by how brilliantly green the colors were. They hadn't gotten greener; my alcoholism had so tamped down my senses that COLORS WERE DULLED.
At 90 days I had intense feelings of the air I was breathing being somehow acidic in a strange way, and imagined that my hips wouldn't *quite* know how to make my legs navigate if I stood up. I felt, emotionally, as if I were walking a tightrope(I didn't know what a slackline was back then, and it sure wouldn't have been a slackline with any give anyway); if I made the SLIGHTEST bauble, I would plummet to....I don't even know, since it was just the way I felt and at least I knew it wasn't physically real.
While sitting in an AA meeting, listening to the speaker and contemplating these strange sensations within my mind's body, I actually had an experience I can only assume was what a person TRULY reborn would experience. I HONESTLY felt I was navigating(not of my own accord) through one plane of existence through to another. WOAH....is all I can say, even recalling it all these years later.
There was a point where the Ringling Circus came into town and people had pictures of the traveling vehicles and the elephants. I can't even recall if it was a train, but that's what I'm thinking now(which may be incorrect). Seeing the picture of the elephant brought such a sense of JOY to my senses that I began crying in happiness.
They call this sort of the a "Pink Cloud," and I floated on one for months, before gently being settled to a more evened-out emotional ride. It was AWESOME.
And I'm certain I seemed off my rocker to many.
If someone don't have direct experience with alcoholism and recovery, their opinion is second class at best. They simply can't imagine what the mechanics involved are. And they can thank their lucky stars for that, rather than know from having gone through it.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 24, 2019 - 10:07am PT
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No - my point is AA might be an effective program to stop drinking, by all means do it, but it's not going to guide you into adulthood. Your parents appear to have failed you, so you're going to have to find alternate counsel and a path of your own. Happi - you're exhibit A on this point, frankly.
I couldn't disagree more - GTFO of that house.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 24, 2019 - 10:17am PT
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Brandon just a reminder to take everything here with a grain of salt. I try to qualify my statements with things like “often” “IMO” etc. what worked for me may not work for you. Give the most stock to people with similar experiences like Happi. From what I’ve seen with someone beating it a sponsor IS super helpful. Don’t put much if any stock in the haters and trolls.
Alcoholism is a disease. I’ve seen people feel ashamed because they think it’s something they chose or they were too weak to stop. But if they got cancer they wouldn’t blame themselves. It’s similar with mental illness. No one chooses it and it’s hard to beat. Don’t worry about the past just make good choices in The present.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Feb 24, 2019 - 10:19am PT
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Wiki: Peter Pan has become a cultural icon symbolizing youthful innocence and escapism.
My dad was a alcoholic and my mom had mental illness. Although I had a childhood, I was so traumatized by my environment I never had an emotionally innocent childhood---I just felt responsible for everything painful.
Thus, I spent many many years over compensating and escaping; and making tons of poor decisions. Fortunately, I made a few good ones too.
Peace.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 24, 2019 - 10:21am PT
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No - my point is AA might be an effective program to stop drinking, but it's not going to guide you into adulthood
Actually, yes, it can, and does, if one follows the Steps, Traditions and Concepts. The reprieve from drinking is just the base.
As for me - well, fine. I will agree that I missed a lot of the entrance ramps on the highway of life. Sometimes that's extraordinarily painful. Sometimes I'm just grateful that I got sober after decades of using pot and alcohol to stay sane enough that I wasn't cowering in a corner as a nonverbal being, or a runaway at 13 caught in trafficker net.
When someone is traumatized, a part of their being does stop a regular path toward a "normal" adulthood. That's well known.
My first trauma, that I remember, occurred at 2 years old, and at 4 years old, my father tried to kill me. So even in this 56 year old body, there is a portion of me that is 2, and 4, and 9 and 12, and 16.
I'm doing okay, all things considered. And I won't be shushed by people who try to shut me up by belittling me.
IMO, where a person lives is not the top priority in sobriety. The top priority is - to not drink. Full stop. I sponsored a young woman living with her physically violent pimp for a short time. It was horrible, trying to help her find a way out of that, especially when she would agree to some steps and then turn right around and run back to him.
But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Feb 24, 2019 - 11:23am PT
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JLP:
I couldn't disagree more - GTFO of that house. A particular house doesn't matter.
You can't run and hide from yourself.
You need to commit a tricky act: to confront your old self while embracing and loving it.
Moving to another place would not help with this task.
Happiegrrrl2:
Oh for crying out loud - there are Peter Pan issues at play in at least 60% of the people who post on this forum. And yet, some of these people are fully capable of getting through life. Thank you Happiegrrrl2 for such eloquent phrase.
Is this your own observation or borrowed from somebody else?
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Chugach
Trad climber
Vermont
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Feb 24, 2019 - 11:36am PT
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FWIW, 12 years ago I was dead broke, unemployed, just lost everything in bankruptcies and staring at my wife and 3 kids trying to figure out how TF I was going to get out of this mess. I went through the stages of grief and eventually just ended up so pissed off and with such a chip on my shoulder that I was either reversing all my misfortunes or going out as the most (what's the right word here, poverty-combative?) human that every lived. Happy to say it worked. I'm far above all my previous high-water marks in life; finances but also marital bliss, happiness, parenting, etc. I've still got a chip on my shoulder from all my prior failures but everyone else seems happy with the results.
My suggestion to to fill yourself with so much self-loathing that you change yourself forever and never, ever, ever come back to this shitty moment.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 24, 2019 - 11:50am PT
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A particular house doesn't matter. Your environment matters a lot and you're less likely to discover its effect on you from within it - IMO he definitely needs to leave.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 24, 2019 - 12:32pm PT
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Can ya just let the guy at least get 90 days sober before this an' thatting him?
First things first.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 24, 2019 - 01:16pm PT
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Who the f__k are you, blow J?
His dad?
Get your own life in order he don't need you to tell him what to do ....
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Feb 24, 2019 - 01:27pm PT
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Actually Werner, he is asking us what to do.
Makes me wonder, is it duck blind or blind duck?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 24, 2019 - 01:29pm PT
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He doesn't need that dickhead Blow J .....
divad you should get a life too!
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Feb 24, 2019 - 01:35pm PT
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I've got a life Werner, as you do too.
It's your supertopo persona that I wonder about.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 24, 2019 - 02:27pm PT
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Nobody needs the dickmoves - especially somebody who's in the throes of major life changes.
It's easy to kick a man when he is down.
Don't know Brandon, but talked to him on the phone and he seems like a decent, intellegent guy. Has he made some poor choices? Probably, but who among us hasn't? As posted somewhere above, rocks and glass houses.
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Treezypoof
Trad climber
Cyberia
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Feb 24, 2019 - 03:11pm PT
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Same folks celebrate Beckey and Bridwells dirtbaggery.
We're supposed to believe they've done so well in life, yet they spend their time anonymously attacking people on the net. Lol.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 24, 2019 - 03:39pm PT
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We’re not begging on the internet
Brandon is not begging. He's reaching out to the tribe for help. If you have a problem with that STFU! Why do you seem to gain pleasure by disparaging him?
To put it into climbing terminology, he is asking for someone to throw him a rope and put him on belay.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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Feb 24, 2019 - 04:59pm PT
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Where he lives has allowed him to get to 40 under the radar of life with zero credit. That complete stupidity needs to end right now. He has all sorts of rationalizations for that "my wife and I chose to be debt free...bla,bla,bla". I wonder what kind of jobs he has had, W2, 1099 pretend contractor or under the table. With zero credit, there are a lot of jobs he isn't going to get.
Actually, for a person with drinking addiction it's better not to have credit, rather than have one. Beats running large debts while having drinking sprees.
And regarding jobs: nobody really cares about "credit" when hiring... they're just checking for things like certain judgements, really bad scenarios, for jobs mostly in banking/accounting where one got access to finances and books.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Feb 24, 2019 - 05:17pm PT
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I dunno, BJ's derision and tough love is likely to do Brandon as much good as all the internet attaboy ballcupping going on here in yet another Poor Brandon thread. I'd guess a lot of the folks with a harsh response have a little history dealing with alcoholics; I know I've had more than my share and it definitely punches my buttons.
Here's a little story from a few years back. BVB drove up from San Diego to come for a visit. He'd been obviously wasted for days but denying it, trying to hide his intake. He got on Supertopo to post a pity party invitation to all you good citizens about how his best friend's wife was such a bitch for yelling at him and making him clean up the 16oz coffee he spilled all over the floor when he stumbled coming into the house. Bob protested that he was sick, running a fever, and this harridan was just so horrible to him. He got lots of support from all you folks about what a crappy friend I am and how if that was your wife you'da knocked her in the head and throwed her in the ditch. Ya'll were so sympathetic and supportive of poor BVB.
Thing was he'd just come back from a doctor shopping trip in Olympia where he scored 40 vicodin, and he was in the midst of his 3 day run consuming 60 Xanax, and drinking a quart of Crown Royal per day. Yeah he was sick, but not in the way you thought. We were pretty sick too, of him slumped in the living room chair, mumbling and ranting, and peeing all over the bathroom floor. I was working just down the driveway in my office when I read his lil' tirade on ST, so I went up to the house for the confrontation. Got him to an AA meeting that night, several more over the next couple days though I doubt he ever got sober, and checked him into a low income rehab facility as my wife and I had to go to the midwest for her mother's 95th birthday.
Bob stayed about 6 days at the clinic before checking himself out, because, you know, it was so low class and they served baloney sandwiches, and he was going to be fine, he had this. That was the third time I'd personally checked him into rehab, and he still had three more stints ahead of him before he died. The Supertopo backslapping made him feel good for a couple hours, made some of you feel good too, but it was all just bullsh#t.
I read Brandon's protests about why he had to leave his first rehab stint early, his tales of how deeply he's driven his life into the ditch, the combination of self-loathing and dodging of blame, the insistence that he's sober, and I think: "I've been bullshitted by better drunks than you before."
Now, I don't know Brandon, and I don't really have a dog in this fight, just my own reaction to the latest trainwreck drama spread across this forum. Yeah, it's just my emotions and perspective, my own litany of dead family, friends and exes, and there's no reason why my opinion ought to carry any weight, I'm just another stranger on the internet. Maybe he'll turn this around, I know folks who've done that, and good on him if he does. Or maybe he'll die; alone like Steve in his Chicago apartment where it was a week before anyone noticed, or after ten weeks in a hospital bed like my mother, or in his sleep in his childood bedroom like BVB. I just think a bunch of internet avatars patting his back or talking sternly to him will have no effect on the outcome.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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Feb 24, 2019 - 05:32pm PT
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They all "run credit"...do you really think they care about "no credit" situation?
They don't!
Moreover, they don't care for bad credit either, unless there's some ugly judgement on the history.
None of them care, except for certain bank/accounting positions.
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John M
climber
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Feb 24, 2019 - 05:38pm PT
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I just think a bunch of internet avatars patting his back or talking sternly to him will have no effect on the outcome.
I see it a bit differently. I went through some really bad years and this place was part of my refuge. For years the outdoors was my refuge from physical and mental illness. It helped keep me sane, though I had many problems. Then I stopped being able to get out and the taco stand, as messed up as it is, helped me through. Oh for sure I got some pretty serious hate for airing it out here, including some nasty emails and texts, but I also got a lot of support. I won't forget that support.
My experience is that some people you can't save. No matter how hard that you try. But others do make it and I prefer keep that hope. Its not blind hope. I know the risks because I too lost a friend to his addictions, but people do make it out of their addictions. Thats my hope for Brandon.
I'm sorry for your loss Off White. BVB sure seemed larger then life. I wish that he could have kicked his problems and was still around. I'm sure that you did the best that you could for him.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Feb 24, 2019 - 06:03pm PT
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Thanks for reporting your experience John, I appreciate it and I'll consider revising my opinion. I'm glad things are better for you.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 24, 2019 - 06:15pm PT
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Thing is, some people do well with hardass toughness. B's friend Aaron said that worked for him. Me, all that does is tell me I'd better not let on with anything I'm dealing with and figure it out on my own. For an alcoholic, because our thinking can be so skewed, that's usually not going to go very well.
I take no issue with toughness, but telling someone to get out of the house, make incestuous innuendos(mother in law carp), suggest coming and landing on someone's house for work offered before the offerer were aware there even was an alcohol problem, while someone is in the vulnerable place of early sobriety-those things don't seem helpful, imo.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2019 - 07:05pm PT
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I’m not getting out of the house, I’m going to work tomorrow. New job. Repairing boilers, good stuff.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 24, 2019 - 07:54pm PT
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You can’t “save” anyone.
The person has to decide to quit. We can only offer information, encouragement, etc. sometimes you need to provide tough love.
But the quiting can only, ultimately, come from the person who quits.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 24, 2019 - 07:55pm PT
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Good deal. Every day is a new day!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2019 - 08:59pm PT
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Every day is a new opportunity, and I’m treating it that way. Feeling suicidal is a shitty thimg, but it’s something that I’m moving beyond. Life sucks and then you move beyond it and fix it.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 25, 2019 - 07:06am PT
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You have to change something if you want things to change and it seems like nothing here has really changed. The cycle therefore will likely repeat.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Feb 25, 2019 - 07:59am PT
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Every day is a new opportunity...
So did you make it to work on time?
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Feb 25, 2019 - 08:01am PT
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I'd guess a lot of the folks with a harsh response have a little history dealing with alcoholics; I know I've had more than my share and it definitely punches my buttons.
As my sister pointed out to me, and has been already mentioned, alcoholism is a disease. You don't cut people off because of their disease, you show them compassion. Compassion is not enabling someone's dysfunctional compulsive behavior. It is seeing the person's suffering and relating to the fact that we all have suffering in common.
It is very difficult to remain aloof/detached from someone's suffering as we are sentient beings---we relate our own sufferings. Often times we become emotional too.
It is easy to get your emotional button pushed when you really care for someone. You feel like you have been shat on after sacrificing so much to help the person.
This is the hook. Never give with any expectation that you will be rewarded---this is codependency. Give freely, openly, and w/o wanting any payback. Otherwise, you will feel like your button has been pushed, you'll feel like a sucker and lash back; and it is your own fault, not the alcoholics.
So is all the tough talk, ball cupping and helpful advice just blah blah? It may be but that's what makes us human, all our collective blah blah is a form of social interaction, albeit digital. But is it better than nothing? Not sure--- as actions speak louder than words. However, literature, for better or worse, is a reality.
The mage offered the wise man one wish. He wished for understanding.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 25, 2019 - 08:47am PT
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alcoholism is a disease
I've always had a problem digesting this concept. Calling it a disease makes it really easy to blame something other than yourself when you raise that glass to your lips. Sorry, but it sounds like a cop out. Are you suggesting that some "disease" takes over the body and the victim is unable to prevent the raising of glass to lips? I quit smoking cold turkey many times and suffered horribly from withdrawals. Each time I resumed I was fully aware that I was making a conscious choice - it wasn't some disease like cancer that I had zero control over. I was weak (ie, not fully committed) and I owned it!
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:00am PT
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HK: I quit smoking cold turkey many times . . . .
Then I guess you didn’t really quit.
I understand what you’re saying about alcoholism being a disease (or Knott). I have loved ones who are ex-alcoholics (and one still drinking now and then), and they portray both alcoholism as a disease and something they are involved in daily. (A couple of my loved ones have been recovered for 30-35 years.) I don’t see that they are blaming a disease for their problem, but I also see that their involvement with AA as almost a religion.
Just recently one asked me what spiritualism is. As you know, AA is strong on a belief in a power greater than oneself.
Yeah, I miss smoking more than I can ever say.
Be well.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:13am PT
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Alcoholism is a disease period. Look up the definition of disease.
It's not an infectious disease, or hereditary disease. But it fits the general definition of disease. Specifically it may be called a lifestyle disease.
I'm sure some alcoholics use this an excuse to pretend they don't have control over it, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's a disease.
As I've alluded to earlier different things may work for different people. Maybe some people need tough love. Some may get help from being involuntarily put in rehab for enough time. Some may just need to be left alone and figure it out themselves. some benefit greatly from AA, etc.
But for someone who is struggling with addiction, self worth and depression the last thing they probably need is derision and jokes at their expense.
You can support someone without enabling them or being suckered by them. And no one knows what it going to work best for a particular person. But again just supporting and encouraging them to get better is likely never going to hurt.
Add some things I've seen:
Leaving rehab early is likely a huge red flag. Even if you think you are good why not finish it out? If you don't have the will power to make it through rehab (and any things/people you think are stupid about it) it's going to be tough to have the will power for the addiction
Stay away from your source of addiction. Obviously there should be none in the house. You shouldn't be around friends doing it for at least a year or two.
Come up with a distraction, e.g. running. Fill your time with work, exercise, home repair, etc. until it's time to go to sleep. Don't have idle time.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:20am PT
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Wiki: Disease (pathology) An abnormal condition of a human, animal or plant that causes discomfort or dysfunction; distinct from injury insofar as the latter is usually instantaneously acquired.
Most alcoholics are functioning alcoholics, just as are most addicts of all stripes eg power, sex, climbing, $$$, status, coffee, fill in blank.
Either you have empathy or you don't. No skin off my nose. LOL.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:26am PT
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I only miss smoking when I watch “Casablanca”.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:37am PT
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Then I guess you didn’t really quit. Ha! That's a play on the famous Mark Twain quote:
"Quitting smoking is easy - I've done it hundreds of times!"
I started smoking at age 9; was up to a pack a day by age 12, and 2 packs a day by age 19. Indeed, I quit many times! ;-)
I eventually saw smoking as an unhealthy relationship. I decided to get a divorce so to speak, and abruptly ended that nearly 3-decade long relationship on Memorial Day 1998, and never looked back.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:39am PT
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Recently decided to give up smoking AND drinking.
It's going pretty well, two months with no alcohol. Not really a problem.
Over a week with no smoking.
I don't like to think of these as diseases, just bad ways of coping with life.
The Tom Waitses and the Bukowskis tend to romanticize this behavior.
I'm hoping the norwegian boy's okay...This thread's a lot like some about old Chuck.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 10:30am PT
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Congrats Hardman and keep it up Mouse.
I have a lot of respect for those that have quit. I’ve seen how hard it can be.
It’s good to know it can be done.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 25, 2019 - 02:11pm PT
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The whole diagnose it, give it a name and a bunch of expensive medications and then poor me is for the most part a total cop out with many ailments. I bet cancer patients wish they had a choice of being sick or not.. Jeeze, all I have to do to cure my cancer is stop being an idiot and sucking on a bottle. I am certain that If I had taken the attitude of poor me I have a disease that I would still be struggling with alcohol. I treated it like a very hard climb that I really, really wanted to get up and I projected it until I got the redpoint. You have to really, really, really want it....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 25, 2019 - 03:19pm PT
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Disease, weakness, whatever.
Brandon check your mail this week.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:04pm PT
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Thinking everyone can beat alcoholism if they just try harder is also a cop out. I would guess that will power IS the number one factor in determining if someone can beat it, but there's other factors at play (including their propensity to addictions), and different things are going to work for different people. People have different physiological reactions to it. Some people can quit cold turkey, but withdrawals could lead to seizures in others.
Warren Harding was one of the toughest, most dogged people in the world. He couldn't quit even when the doctors told him it was killing him.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:25pm PT
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Alcoholism/addiction is a choice. That's why I prefer SMART Recovery over AA. There are genetics involved, but the simple fact of the matter is every time one puts the bottle to their lips, they are making a choice.
A key tenent of AA is one is powerless over their addiction. SMART posits one has power; the power of the decision to use or not.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:32pm PT
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Alcoholism/addition is a choice
What about multiplication?
I beat a serious addiction (in the process gained 36 pounds I have since lost).
Took some serious willpower.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:33pm PT
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What about multiplication?
Fixed the typo.....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:35pm PT
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Toker, you gave up choss? Just say no!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:36pm PT
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No, I'm still a sandstone climber.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:49pm PT
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Alcoholism/addiction is a choice. That's why I prefer SMART Recovery over AA. There are genetics involved, but the simple fact of the matter is every time one puts the bottle to their lips, they are making a choice.
A key tenent of AA is one is powerless over their addiction. SMART posits one has power; the power of the decision to use or not.
Maybe it's a choice but it can be a tough one. As mentioned up thread people have been given the choice between continuing their addiction and dying, or stopping and living. No one wants to continue down a path that leads to death, and it shows how hard it can be to make another choice.
I'm sure I'd be in the same camp of believing I have control and that would be the way I'd beat it. But I know other people are different and if AA/greater power works for other people I say whatever works for you is right.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 05:02pm PT
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How much control do you have after drugs/alcohol take over your life? I don't know. And again I'm sure it varies per the person.
Consider heroin. To me the dumbest thing is to even try it the first time. There's so many stories of rock stars, etc dying from it. It's known that it's extremely mentally and physically addictive. Why anyone would think "I can handle it, I'll be fine" is beyond me. But then they are addicted and it's extremely tough to stop. You need more and more. You need it just to feel normal / not depressed and despondent. It makes you feel content and that things will be okay. Sheesh, what an awful drug tailor made for abuse and addiction. I have more sympathy for the person who has become addicted because it has messed with their mind so much, I don't know how much control they have left. But that initial decision to try it just seems stupid.
Alcohol isn't really like that. So many people drink and can handle it. You just start like everyone else does. How much control does someone have after their chemistry and brain structure has changed from years of abuse. Again I don't know. But I'm not about to think it would be as easy for them to pass up a drink as for me.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 25, 2019 - 05:07pm PT
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I'm sure I'd be in the same camp of believing I have control and that would be the way I'd beat it. But I know other people are different and if AA/greater power works for other people I say whatever work for you is right.
Absolutely! Whatever works for one is good. I'm not putting down AA, it just didn't work for me.
The reason it didn't work for me is listening to other's sob stories ad naseum was pointless for me. I've lived it. That and it seemed like a lot of folks came to AA meetings after having a few. AA meetings made me want to get a drink. I'm not alone in that.
So many people drink and can handle it.
That's where the genetics come in and why it is called a disease.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 25, 2019 - 05:23pm PT
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I love the hair splitting semantics about this problem. Pretty sure that dying alone in an alley in N Lansing in winter is a fact whether or not we call it disease or weakness or XXX's own damn fault of his own.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 25, 2019 - 05:40pm PT
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Warren couldn't quit because deep down he didn't want to quit. Absolutely no one can make you quit. the doctor, the judge, your lover. None of them can do it. Only you can quit and then only when you actually want to... I know so many drunks and I have been there. 23years working in restaurants/bars. So many of my friends that feel that I betrayed them by quitting.. some of them the doctor told them decades ago to quit and they are still in it. many have expressed a desire to cut back but they also admit that they still really like the juice and don't want to quit. Others are so wrapped up in their identity as partiers that they can't even fathom quitting. You have to want to quit more than you want that next drink... Until you get there you will still be one moment away from that next drink regardless of what medication or court order you are under...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 25, 2019 - 05:45pm PT
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I had a friend who went out at 32 yrs old. went in the hospital with kidney failure. Went on a wild turkey cocaine bender as soon as they let him out of the hospital... He defiantly did not want to quit...
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 25, 2019 - 06:01pm PT
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Some people are not even allowed to quit in this lifetime due to their karma .....
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
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Feb 25, 2019 - 06:13pm PT
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Why anyone would think "I can handle it, I'll be fine"
Because we live in a world of “the rules don’t apply to me”. Actually pushing the envelope of gravity is a hardcore characteristic of climbers. Pushing the envelope and confident you’ll come out ok on the other side is standard practice of any high intensity pursuits.... climbing, BASE jumping, extreme skiing ... the list goes on and on... It’s too bad that for some the preferred high risk activity is drugs and/or alcohol. Giving over control has been something I struggle to understand. But that doesn’t mean I dismiss or care less about those I know well or feel close to that have given over self control to drugs, alcohol or any other high risk endeavor without fully preparing for the consequences of failure.
I care deeply for Brandon and wish for him a path that will bring him health and opportunity.
Susan
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 25, 2019 - 06:39pm PT
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I think we’re a sum of the little things we do or neglect to do every day - our minds and bodies slowly and firmly adapt. Years later the gap between ourselves and someone who was just like us except for a few small things years ago - the distance between can become seemingly uncrossable. The guy who can run a 3 hr marathon because they ran just a little every single day vs the guy who would have to expend incredible will power and life change just to be able to walk the thing and finish. That’s pretty much my view in a nutshell on drinking and most other related matters of mental and physical health.
Again, nothing’s going to change until something changes. IMO, again, if he stays in that house, nothing else will change.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Feb 25, 2019 - 06:48pm PT
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If you ask John Combs what his biggest worry is, he'll say: "How will I feed Red?"
Red is actually white. He's a labradoodle rescue, just tall enough for Combs to pet if he reaches over the armrest of his wheelchair. Combs, 42, has cerebral palsy. He has difficulty speaking. But he has no difficulty saying the line most Americans have heard at least once: "Welcome to Walmart!"
Combs has one of Walmart's trademark front-door jobs: He's a "people greeter" at a store in Vancouver, Wash. But, he was told, come April 25 his job is going away. And he is not alone. According to Walmart, greeters are being removed at about 1,000 stores around the country.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 25, 2019 - 07:31pm PT
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No one wants to continue down a path that leads to death,
I disagree... there are plenty of addicts that really don't want to live. From my limited exposure I'd posit most addictions have little or nothing to do with the substance and everything to do with a failed attempt to self medicate (or even clear self-destruction) due to a much more important underlying untreated mental condition. Common things like anxiety, depression, and even psychosis are at the core of many so afflicted.
I wholey agree to classify addiction as a disease is probably misguided. It's a symptom, one of a broad spectrum.
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gruzzy
Social climber
socal
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Feb 25, 2019 - 07:56pm PT
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Ill give money to people begging on the streets all day long
Wouldnt even consider giving money to someone living in a house, thinking about buying said house, probably sitting on a comfortable couch as opposed to standing at a noisy dirty intersection getting yelled at and spit on
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Feb 25, 2019 - 08:14pm PT
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It really seems that AA is the one who pushes for alcoholism as a disease mindset, for whatever reason. The recent literature bring up the very same points as above, you can’t cure a real disease by trying hard.
I think there is a way to bridge the different perspectives here, between "you're just not trying hard enough" vs. "trying hard is not enough."
Don't get hung up on whether it is a disease or not- that's just a label. Calling it a disease does not excuse a person from accountability for fixing it, and those who misuse the "disease" label to play the victim card are just manipulating that label to serve their own avoidance. More important than the label, is to identify the gap between trying hard in ineffective ways that one knows (which is essentially all addictive/avoidance behaviors!) versus trying hard in a way that works.
I am not an alcoholic or drug addict, but I grew up as the oldest child of a single parent who was (trying ineffectively to treat her own childhood traumas and manic-depression), and I've had my share of emotional issues to overcome. The biggest way it manifested in my life so far was problems during my first marriage. Over time I recognized familiar situations and patterns that I could predict and brace myself to "try harder" to avoid, but it seemed like no matter what I did, how hard I tried, I couldn't avoid it. I was intellectually aware of it all, but somehow powerless in the moment when it really mattered.
After years of trying and repeatedly failing, I surrendered and recognized that my intellectual/analytical approach was just plain not working. No amount of trying harder was possible for me. My map of reality was inadequate. I recognized that I needed to try a different approach, and that led me down the emotional engagement path of "healing my inner child" and facing the various demons that I had pretended were behind me after surviving childhood.
While avoiding-the-demons approach had seemed to mostly work for me as an adult (and this I think is the tie-in and common thread for all types of addictive or avoidance behaviors), it had undesirable side-effects in some situations. In my case, the undesirable side-effect was that my brain was strewn with off-limits areas to maintain the denial, and landmines of emotional energy were vulnerable to be triggered during conflicts with my ex-wife. That is a bad scenario to be in with another unstable person who has their own issues and seeks to trigger the landmines. It made me very easy to manipulate in an unhealthy relationship, and even if I were suddenly in a healthy relationship, I would be unable to hold up my end. These landmines represented all the ways I was incapable of being an independent adult, which is a prerequisite for a healthy relationship. If the other person has a meltdown, one needs to be able to maintain an emotional center until the other can recover. Failure to do this is what leads to relationship drama.
So I had given up on the strictly intellectual/analytical approach because it really was not working to just try harder. It took me years of trying harder before I accepted that. But when I applied my energy in a different way, by focusing on confronting my demons, acknowledging the original hurts and learning to sooth myself, over time I defused many of the emotional landmines. It was still a lot of work, and a form of "trying harder"- but also trying harder within a different and more effective framework (emotional and spiritual and physical working with the intellectual) that could lead to a better outcome.
Even a few years into that process, I had some major setbacks with my ex-wife and that is what led me toward divorce. I had reached a point of accepting that some situations I was unable to manage myself even with my new tools, and I was no longer willing to play the same game with ex.
Ironically, part of recognizing a better path was understanding the way that "try harder" contributed to my ongoing failures. It was an endless cycle of try-harder, fail, feel guilty and try harder, fail, feel guilty and try harder.... That sounds awfully familiar and universal to folks trying and failing to overcome negative patterns.
The "feel guilty and try harder" phase is where I sowed the seeds for future failures. In my case, I tolerated stuff I should not have, failed to defend my boundaries that I needed at that stage of my being, and that set up a pattern of righteous indignation/anger that grew over a period of months. I didn't fully understand the nature of that at the time I finally walked away from my ex. But in hindsight I had it intuitively, recognizing that my only healthy option was to walk away, because I couldn't make her change, and I was no longer willing to play my part in that cycle, and I couldn't tolerate how she acted with me.
Lots of share here, with only loose surface parallels to those fighting alcoholism, but the really key commonality is understanding the issue of "trying harder" at a much deeper level, and recognizing how "trying harder" might actually be part of the problem. I think the emotional underpinnings are very much the same with just different negative behaviors as the ineffective coping mechanism.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 06:19am PT
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Since I'm purportedly a minister to the AA Way, I'll add that often in meetins someone might say "dis ease," that's what I feel - ill at ease."
So all you no medical docs go right ahead and know better than those who make a dedication to the sport of excessive drinking. Just remember that when someone with little to no experience in your field tries to explain that you're doing it wrong in whatever project you're working on.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 26, 2019 - 06:40am PT
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The reason it didn't work for me is listening to other's sob stories ad naseum was pointless for me. I've lived it. That and it seemed like a lot of folks came to AA meetings after having a few. AA meetings made me want to get a drink. I'm not alone in that.
Haha that is so true! Years ago I checked out some meetings before I decided I was KNOTT an "alcoholic" (whatever that means). Day in and day out, the room pretty much reeked of booze! A friend who was in AA called the meetings "depression sessions". On the bright side, no matter how miserable your life was, you couldn't help but feel better about yourself because everyone else was so morose and mopey. ;-)
I checked out AA because I felt I was drinking a bit much (3-5 low-ABV beers a day), but at the end of the day there was simply no way I was ever going to get past the 1st step, because I could never be made to believe that I was powerless over any addiction or behavior - much less that only God (or higher power, lower power, whatever) could prevent me from doing self-destructive things.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 26, 2019 - 07:50am PT
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As mentioned calling it a disease or not may just be semantics but I don’t think calling it a disease (a disease in the general sense is just something that impairs the functioning of an organism) equates to shirking responsibility or stating you don’t have control over it. I guess some people use it that way but I don’t.
I think It is a choice but can be an extremely difficult one. If someone will die if they don’t quit of course many of them want to quit. But they also want to keep drinking. If someone chooses to keep drinking and die (who otherwise wants to live) that shows you how hard it can be to quit (for them).
I’d posit that it’s often when the pros of quitting outweighs the cons, and someone figures out a strategy that works for them that they quit. Like the phrase hitting rock bottom. They haven’t gotten to the point where the pros outweigh the cons until the hit that point.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 09:20am PT
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So - the person who gets diabetes due to eating options comes to a point where the doc says "You've got to change the eating choices you have made."
The person lives in a neighborhood where the "grocery store" fresh produce consists of a few soft potatoes and a bin of fruit fly buzzing onions, but other than that - canned goods and processed foods are what is available.
Nonetheless, they sign up for Blue Apron at the absurd markup, so they can get some fresh produce and healthy protein options into their diet. Now they just have to find a way to make sure the delivery isn't stolen before they get home after work at their second job.
"Doc," says the patient. "I'm willing! Now, about this odor and discoloration in my foot. It's kind of scary. What can be done?"
"Well," says doc. "You ate crappily for many a year, and it affected your circulation, so now you have a gangrenous foot. That's not good. Left unchecked, that'll kill ya. But let's leave that to serve as a reminder as to what you did to yourself. That might serve as incentive to eat healthfully for the rest of your life."
Or - any of you guys ever got a sexually transmitted disease? Did that disease manifest itself out of the clear blue sky like a virgin birth? Or did you make a choice that inadvertently brought that illness to you? How is your herpes, Hep C, HIV, Syphilis, Gonohreah or even just crabs somehow justified to be in a disease category when you can't allow that a person who is now having pancreatic issues, liver damage due to drinking may have a disease?
Let me ask this, of some of those who are vexed at "their alcoholics:" Has it ever occurred to you that you might have some skin in the game? Do you justify cheating on your spouse because they are an alcoholic and all that entails? I know one person who used that as an excuse to go so far as bringing sexual partners into their house when the spouse was supposed to be away(and then got served with divorce when the person unexpectedly returned during). But thing is - that person cheated on their spouse early in the marriage and consistently, and lied and the spouse knew darned well it was lies. The spouse began drinking as a way to cope, and years later - the cheating spouse is blaming the alcoholism for their infidelity.
Maybe their alcoholism allows us to point the finger at them instead of dealing with our own unwillingness to change. How many a person has stayed with an alcoholic because at least they paid the mortgage, or did the laundry and had a meal on the table each night, or were a wild ride in the sack?
Anyway - I have work to do today, so better get to it. Good day, from an alcoholic who hasn't had a drink in 8,219days, and doesn't see any need to "blame my disease" to get pity or relapse.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 26, 2019 - 09:57am PT
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BJ - those South Park clips are hilarious! Thanks for sharing. ;-)
I have nothing against AA; clearly it has helped countless people, and continues to do so. I just take exception to the mentality that the 12 Step program is the only way, or that people who drink to their detriment are inarguably helpless victims of a disease.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Feb 26, 2019 - 10:02am PT
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Thanks NutAgain, as usual yours was an excellent post.
Gambling can also be considered a disease. There is actually a drug that people take to curb their impulse to gamble. Gambling and alcoholism can likey both be associated with some physiological condition or gene sequence we are unaware of. Some people are predisposed to suffer from either "disease"
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John M
climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 10:11am PT
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or that people who drink to their detriment are inarguably helpless victims of a disease.
maybe you should reframe your understanding of what a disease is. People get cancer, that doesn't mean that they are helpless. There are choices that they can make and changes that they can make to deal with it. But often they need help to complete those changes. Lots of diseases are that way.
You might also consider how you portray AA meetings and or the levels of drink that constitute alcoholism. there is a vast difference between 3 to 5 beers a day and drinking to passing out, ending up in place you don't know or with people you don't know.
makes me think about how people define epics. There is the person with little experience who gets benighted on a climb and has to overnight someplace with no gear versus say Malcolm Daly's epic, or Jim Donini's time in that snow cave. Pretty wide range there.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 26, 2019 - 10:38am PT
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I see AA or counseling or whatever have you as a parent child relationship.
I've had a few life changing experiences in support groups and counseling where I was shown the way, where my parenting fell short, and a few wastes of time and money as well.
It sort of depends on who you end up with and how well it fits the root cause of your issues - which IMO is a completely random occurrence outside of your insight and control - unfortunately - and are you really ready for it?
Eventually you have to grow up and leave the relationship - or are you avoiding it? Hard to tell sometimes.
Also - I've found the people with the most awareness and insight into your issues can also be the ones most likely to filter you out of their lives - and the ones with the least generally need similar help themselves and misery loves company - another conundrum in the process of self awareness and improvement - good mentors and those willing to guide you through your weaknesses can be hard to come by.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2019 - 11:13am PT
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Hey gang, haven’t been on the internet for a few days so I haven’t checked the thread. I’m assuming that it’s the usual mix of positive, negative, and mocking. Fine with me. I’ll have to catch up on the drama I created soon.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 26, 2019 - 06:00pm PT
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2019 - 07:05pm PT
I’m going to work tomorrow. New job. Repairing boilers, good stuff.
So how did your first 2 days at the new job go?
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 26, 2019 - 06:42pm PT
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DMT: Consider deleting your beating a dead horse post. This is serious discussion and no place for frivolity.
Just my thinking, take it for what it is worth.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Feb 26, 2019 - 07:09pm PT
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yes, I want to hear how Brandon is doing on his new job also
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Feb 26, 2019 - 08:12pm PT
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^^^^^ Yep, me too.
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D Murph
climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 08:16pm PT
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Brandon,
What happened to the money people like Werner and I (me?) shipped your GoFundMe?
Thanks,
Dmurph
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John M
climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 08:44pm PT
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It was spent on the rehab facility. That was prepaid and no refunds. Brandon spent I believe 21 days of the 30 days in rehab.
Sorry folks.. no refunds.
There was 700+ dollars over. Brandon's friend who was managing the go fund me while Brandon was in the facility sent that money to Brandon's wife to help her after Brandon left rehab.
...............
I was off a few days. he went in on morning of the 11th of Jan and came out the evening of the 29th.
I'm sure sue with the phd can do the math.
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Treezypoof
Trad climber
Cyberia
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Feb 26, 2019 - 09:18pm PT
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I contributed no strings attached as a show of support. I'm pretty sure it registered.
DMT might just be referring to the disease argument. If you google it, it is a pretty beat horse. Some science and lots of opinions out there. Plenty of opinions from folks who haven't been there.
Boilermaker seems like a good path. Join the union, get trained. Work helped me get through.
Brandon, here's a tune that is always in the Eb section of my set. I've been here long enough to know better than to post video of myself though, lol. It's an old Jawbreaker song. This is Lucero covering it. I do it electric. I couldn't have said it better myself.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Treezypoof
Trad climber
Cyberia
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Feb 26, 2019 - 09:22pm PT
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If this bothers you so much, you should probably check in somewhere yourself.
You'll end up like BJ, with an uncontrollable man crush.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Feb 26, 2019 - 09:31pm PT
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Rehab was hella fun
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Feb 26, 2019 - 09:42pm PT
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DMT: Consider deleting your beating a dead horse post. This is serious discussion and no place for frivolity. Just my thinking, take it for what it is worth
Dingus that is hilarious! Just see how serious everyone gets here, thinking they have the right perspective on problems with humanity that go back so many 10's of thousands of years. This is no place for frivolity now son:) Take that down this instant.
Arne
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Treezypoof
Trad climber
Cyberia
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Feb 26, 2019 - 10:41pm PT
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Durp!
Who stopped developing early in life again? lol
The age old question.... born this way or worked at it your whole life?
How long does the buzz last when you tear someone down? Are you addicted?
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 27, 2019 - 04:21am PT
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It was the best of Supertopo. It was the worst of Supertopo.
I have to say that I'm admiring the way Brandon is handling this thread. I could do well to incorporate it into the way I manage internet barrage.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 27, 2019 - 08:18am PT
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Interesting that Brandon presumably took a break from work yesterday to post this:
-but did knott mention how work was going, as it would be his 2nd day on the job...
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2019 - 08:27am PT
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Ok, people are discussing my time in rehab. I wrote something as I was travelling home from the facillity. I’ll post it now, because why not. I’ve already made a fool of myself apparently.
Here goes, I mever really wanted to make this fully public, but so many people are writing on this thread. Hopefully nobody maliciously disseminates my words. I probably shouldn’t do this.
Ok, there are a lot of people out there who contributed, and I know there are a lot who just want to see the best for me regardless of money. So, to everyone first off, thank you. You all mean the world to me.
I don’t want to put this out all over the internet, so if you’re getting this in your inbox, please don’t share it without checking in with me first. Thanks.
So, there has been a lot of drama at home and my wife and I are seperating. In addition, Aaron called the house phone at the facillity and started yelling at a random guest about me. Both of these things distressed me and Llama and Aaron had made themselves unavailable, which forced me inside my head. I can’t speak for anyone else, but when there is stress, without communication, I go a little crazy.
Let me back up a little and say that when I hopped on a plane to Minneapolis, I was at rock bottom and Aaron reached out. I will be eternally grateful. In my alcoholic bender stupor, I just gathered a couple of things and got a ride to the airport as soon as possible. I was very, very desperate. I was told to just get my ass out there and Aaron would take care of the rest. Well, he did. He very generously kitted me out with clothes, got me a haircut, bought me some fresh drawers, etc. All extremely kind acts.
Now, back to the part about crazy. I was spiraling down, and couldn’t focous on the task at hand, me. I was unable to focus on myself and how to put the steps of the AA model together. Too many extraneous (sp) thoughts. Then, when Aaron found out that I wasn’t staying for six months in the twin cities in a sober house, I recieved a phone call from him. I was told that I needed to return everything that he had loaned to me, leaving me with very little to wear. That was his choice and I honored it.
Boom, that was the straw that broke the camels back. I had a major nervous breakdown and I got the shakes really bad as well as whole body spasms. Not fun. I went to my room to sleep and ended up not sleeping all night. Around 4am, the strangest thing happened. My alarm clock began rapidly moving around one side of the room, from point to point. Then, I entertained ghosts in my room for a solid hour. I was wide awake. I was hallucinating and experiencing what I can only describe as a psychotic episode. This was scary, made doubly so because my mom was diagnosed with paranoid schitzophrenia (sp) at about the same age I am now.
So, stressed, freaking out, and concerned that my alcoholism has been masking an underlying mental health issue, I decided to head home. I’m uninsured and my private doctor has ways of making things like psychologists visits affordable for a poor person like myself. It’s not what I wanted to do on a number of levels. Llama needs her space right now, and as I write this I’m sitting on a bus, headed home to encroach on her space. Not what I wanted to do. I needed to focus on recovery and I was cutting it short. Not what I wanted to do. The Retreat is an amazing facility with a staff that is 100% recovering alcoholics or addicts, they know what they’re talking about. It’s based on the AA model, which I am now fully invested in, as it’s more than a way to quit drinking, it lays down the framework to allow one to live a spiritual life with less selfishness and ego. Count me in. Leaving was not what I wanted to do. Then, there are the dozens of friends I made there, they didn’t want me to leave and I didn’t want to leave them.
I understand that 30 days is a big number phisiologically (sp), for recovery and in 45 minutes I’ll be on day 21. Nine to go and I know I can do that. I’m treating it like a challenge. When I was there I did a lot of running on the treadmill. Treadmills are boring, so I started to challenge myself to longer distances and faster speeds. I like pain and the challenge of pushing through it. My recovery is going to be like that, but with my mind rather than my body. If I’m questioning my mental stabillity, it seems to me that I should make sure that my brain is functioning properly before I present it with the biggest challenge I’ve ever given it.
Some of you may disagree with my actions and that’s fine, but in the end it’s the decision I chose to make.
I’m hitting the ground running here in NH, my recovery is my number one focus right now so please, don’t worry about that. This may be the single most important thing in my life that I HAVE TO DO.
To everyone who contributed, thank you so much. Just because I left early doesn’t mean your money went to waste. Not by a long shot. I had nearly three weeks of intensive AA crash course. I’m almost done with the fourth step and am a little nervous about the fifth, but it’s a super important one, in my opinion. I wouldn’t have the knowledge needed to do this without your kindness and generosity. Eight hours a day of AA meetings, lectures, and workshops packs a lot into ones brain in a short period of time.
Again, thanks everyone,
Brandon-
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2019 - 08:29am PT
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That was a while ago, and there’s a lot of follow up info, but I haven’t written about it yet. Yes, I’ve posted, but I haven’t written in depth yet.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2019 - 08:31am PT
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Hardman Knott, that day of work was something else. Changing sprockets on a dtywall dryer in a huge Georgia Pacific drywall plant. It was a one day gig, and pretty strange.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 27, 2019 - 08:37am PT
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Cool, man, thanks for the update. Keeping busy is a very good thing.
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D Murph
climber
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Feb 27, 2019 - 09:24am PT
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Sounding good Brandon, keep up the good work!
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
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Feb 27, 2019 - 09:27am PT
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Susan
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Feb 27, 2019 - 09:36am PT
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Hang in there Brandon. Get through all this, and future setbacks will likely seem trivial.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 27, 2019 - 11:15am PT
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That's an awesome story - guy interrupts your treatment to demand the underwear he bought you back? I'd say that's a number you put on block.
I've known perfectly sober and healthy men who have also hallucinated during the loss of their relationships. I don't think it qualifies you as psychotic.
Good luck,
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2019 - 11:24am PT
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It feels good to get that out there.
I am still down and out, but telling the backstory helps. Thanks.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 27, 2019 - 01:40pm PT
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Hey dude, hope you're loving on the pups and treating yourself kindly. Don't forget the excellent boost that we can self dose and titrate as needed with endorphins. Best part: doggies never say no to a hike.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2019 - 10:15am PT
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Ron, I check my mail daily. Nothing so far. Regardless, you kick ass.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Auditory and visual hallucinations are quite common when detoxing off of alcohol. However if you see or hear things now that aren't really there that would be cause for concern. But even if that was true it can be a very treatable condition with the right meds. I work with a treated schizophrenic guy now who functions at a very high level in IT, has a family, etc.... He tells some strange stories from time to time but I'd never have known if he hadn't provided his history to me.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2019 - 10:28am PT
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TBC, it seemed normal for me to ask random guy and his dogs to show me around Eldorado. He did, and knew the place backward and forward. Fun walk with a guy who knows sh#t.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Should be there by now.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I appreciate your updates Brandon. Reading a thread like this gets you invested and you hope for the best and want to see what happens.
As I’ve said don’t take a anything personal from the trolls/haters. If they have advice that seems to work that’s fine. But ignore anything that attempts to put you down.
Again as I’ve said I’m posting to show my support and share my experiences that may or may not be applicable to you. And also to feed my addiction of “wasting time” on SuperTopo. ;-)
Mental illness is something you have even less control of than alcoholism. People say just stop being depressed etc but I think it’s often a problem with brain chemistry you need to treat. Medication. Good diet. Sleeping correctly (eg 11pm to 7pm). Exercise. Maybe light therapy if it’s worse in the winter. If you do try medication make sure you are under the care of a good psychiatrist (a dr of mental drugs) not a GP or psychologist. I’ve seen more than one person out on temporary/ addictive drugs for long term. And some drugs make things worse (even suicidal) and you need to be getting frequent check ins to make sure you are on a drug that works for you and at the correct dose.
I don’t know if it’s wise to treat mental illness and alcoholism at the same time. Seek good professional advice. I do know someone where they tried to treat alcoholism, depression, and kick cigarettes with medication at the same time. Really bad idea. One of the side effects of the cigarette drug was psychosis. Sheesh. These were supposedly professionals trying to help but should have known this was a bad idea. They also didn’t follow up with him to make sure the meds were working correctly. Luckily someone else I know found out and threw away the stupid cigarette pills, got him of the addictive temporary drugs and probably saved his life.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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AFAIK, hallucinations and getting the shakes are part of the DTs. So though I can understand how you're worried about your family history of schizophrenia, it sounds like all of the symptoms may have been part of alcohol withdrawal.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Like Susan says, stay strong. You on so many of our hearts with love. lynnie
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Brandon, sharing honestly is part of healing.
Then, when Aaron found out that I wasn’t staying for six months in the twin cities in a sober house,
Never stayed in a sober house. When I was in rehab it became apparent that sober houses are anything but. Sure, it's hard to bring booze in, but drugs can easily be brought in. That and from what I learned from rehab residents that had spent time in sober living is that it is common for the house leaders to deal and provide booze to line their pockets.
It sounds good in concept, but is really a bad situation to be in from what I gathered. My brother in law insisted I go to one. Not a chance in hell!
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Coupla Dolts in your corner, too, Brandon. <3 Life isn't a straight line.
Most important thing is to stand up again if you fall.
Falling is human. Expecting yourself never to fall is inhuman.
I'm learning to be kinder to myself, too. (Unsurprisingly, like anything worthwhile, it takes a lot of practice.)
Finding self-acceptance and self-love is one of the most difficult journeys out there. But remember that you're worth the effort. You. Are. Worth. It. YOU.
Imperfect, beautiful, you. Perfectly imperfect, just like the rest of us.
HUGE, New England bear hug.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, Brandon_ ...
still praying, in your corner, here...
very nice words, there from lilabiene:
Most important thing is to stand up again if you fall.
keep going... once you learn to work-on-the-trail, it gets
easier and can even become 'like a natural habit' -- which
is the reward:
it CAN work...
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2019 - 08:40am PT
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John, the first weekend in rehab I was told that we all had a night off. My ‘friends’ said ‘follow us, fun night ahead’ So, we wandered around this warehouse district, where everyone offered us drugs, it turned out to be a test, and I passed. There were peobably a hundred people offering coke and booze. It seemed so f*#ked up, Ikept saying, ‘This doesn’t make sense’.
That’s all for now, crazy situation.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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and you are a strong man for walking away, congrats
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sempervirens
climber
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Hey Brandon,
I've just been lurking on this thread 'cause I have no direct experience with most of what you're going through. But I find it interesting to see it all unfold; the human condition in a set of circumstances. So, thanks.
I've seen plenty of fecked up shite in my 59 years. I expect you'll overcome. Rootin' for ya.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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What kind of rehab sends people out "for a test run?"
Seriously - if that is their model, that place needs to be outed and shut down.
Could someone who knows the name of that place please send me a note so I can contact them? You can reach me through my TalismanToo.Etsy.com shop via the Contact button.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Predatory rehab centers are a norm in this sick country of ours.
I had a friend whose last attempt at rehab went like this:
sick off dope, he found a place in Battle Creek, MI; he secured funding, a BIG check, from his family (at their wits and finances' end after several medical and non-medical rehab attempts) for a spot in the facility. He gave over that check to the facility after repeatedly clarifying and receiving assurances that no religious component of the recovery was requisite to complete the program. Entering facility, portraits of L. Ron Hubbard adorned the walls (my friend was naive to this figure). To complete the program you had to read all (like at least 10 or something) of these scientology books. He walked away. He died in an alley.
Props to your walking away Brandon. Please keep being here (in life, not ST necessarily) with us.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Damn, BraveCowboy, that is horrible. The Church of Scientology is so effin' corrupt. Read "Going Clear" by Lawrence Wright--awesome! Good documentary, too.
Hang in there, Brandon.
BAd
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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*
Brandon, Best of luck on clean & sober living, rooting for you big time.
Keep up with your running,... James Taylor would agree with that approach to help heal yourself..
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Saludos
Nita..
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2019 - 02:20pm PT
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Ron O saved my life. Maybe that’s dramatic, but his money order allowed me to open a bank account, so that I can recieve all of your generous paypal donations. I have a balance of six dollars right now, and that kicks ass. Wish my wife hadn’t taken my money, but what the f*#k, can’t change it. Thank you so, so much, Ron. I feel like I’ve got a new beginning thanks to you. Your kindness is f*#king incredible.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Ron O saved my life.
Toker Villain is a great person. Only met him a few times at Todd's in JT. He threw you a belay. You need to make the moves to get up the climb.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Yeah, and that climb o life can get like some of those mud pitches that Ron O put up back in the day too! Clear head and courage are the best tools for that type of climbing!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I never put up anything in the Fisher Towers.
Plenty of nice varnished splitters on (relatively) soft rock, but I leave the mud to Byers and Bartlett.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Enough with the digs at your wife already. You don't think you owe her for every single friggin day of misery that your drunk ass put her through? Took YOUR money...you don't HAVE enough money to EVER make it right.
I assume a big part of sobriety is still being honest with yourself and others. Try it sometime.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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I've known perfectly sober and healthy men who have also hallucinated during the loss of their relationships. I don't think it qualifies you as psychotic.
Really? How's this possible? Probably just got some pre-existing issues relapse..
In terms of controlling mental issues, my belief is that the main thing is not having any kind of relationships with anyone. Once this stuff gets cut out for good: it all gets 100% better, quality of life and all, a lot of time and energy is freed for fixing things for yourself...becomes kind of funny to learn that someone can suffer or even feel slightest distress because of broken relationship, or even need one. Really, all of that is just a self-inflicted illusion. And greedy ex-partners stealing money...don't want to get started on that, I'd have the cops on their arses in no time, they'd end up with a record. And how is it possible for 2 different adults...to have one shared bank account? I mean people aren't that trustworthy...that's the truth. For christ's sake anyone who got rid of relationship or marriage should celebrate the end of slavery. (to get legally married... one has to be insane, considering the legal climate)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I really enjoyed your post Jebus...spot on and well written!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2019 - 03:00am PT
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Canyoncat, thank you.
That was a good reality check. The whole reason that my wife left me was that I was a raging alcoholic. Money shouldn’t matter when you’re subjecting your better half to the pain of seeing their better half drink themselves to death. Or close to it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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. Really? How's this possible? Probably just got some pre-existing issues relapse..
In terms of controlling mental issues, my belief is that the main thing is not having any kind of relationships with anyone. Once this stuff gets cut out for good: it all gets 100% better, quality of life and all, a lot of time and energy is freed for fixing things for yourself...becomes kind of funny to learn that someone can suffer or even feel slightest distress because of broken relationship, or even need one. Really, all of that is just a self-inflicted illusion. And greedy ex-partners stealing money...don't want to get started on that, I'd have the cops on their arses in no time, they'd end up with a record. And how is it possible for 2 different adults...to have one shared bank account? I mean people aren't that trustworthy...that's the truth. For christ's sake anyone who got rid of relationship or marriage should celebrate the end of slavery. (to get legally married... one has to be insane, considering the legal climate)
Sheesh foamingclimber who worked you up into a lather?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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A few weeks ago I had a conversation with my son (turning 17 soon), that I think is very apropos to this thread.
I asked my son, "What is the thing you are struggling with the most in your transition from being a kid to being an adult?"
He replied, "Realizing that the world doesn't care about me."
I was very surprised, proud, and relieved to hear him say this. It's at the heart of a strong difference I had with my ex in how to raise children. We each learn life lessons at different points based on our circumstances and aptitude to learn from them. I hope I was able to give him some advice that will serve him well in life. What I said was:
"Yeah, you're basically right. One of the main things of being an adult is learning to do that for yourself, and to create a network of people around you who really do care."
We talked a bit more along those lines... and later I realized how central that conversation is to a variety of issues that must be learned on the path to being an effective and independent adult.
If you learn to be the one who cares for yourself in all respects (whether it is maintaining your own ability to earn income or maintain a checkbook or cook yourself a meal, or console your emotional self when you are feeling down or lonely or like a failure or whatever)... if accept your personal responsibility for all of that, rather than looking outward for it all the time, you can be more selective in your choice of friends, in your intimate relationships, and hold out for people with integrity who support the values and behaviors that you aspire to. It is a positive feedback loop. The more you have a vision of how you want to be and work toward it, the more you can attract people in your life who share that vision.
Good luck on your journey Brandon. We all are struggling or lost in different ways, some more visibly than others, some at the beginning and some at the end of those journeys for different aspects of our lives. For me personally, guilt and shame have been elements in the things that have held me back, and sharing is a way of overcoming those limitations, to create space for learning, healing, acceptance, joy and happiness.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Enough with the digs at your wife already. You don't think you owe her for every single friggin day of misery that your drunk ass put her through? Took YOUR money...you don't HAVE enough money to EVER make it right.
I assume a big part of sobriety is still being honest with yourself and others. Try it sometime.
Do you know Brandon or his wife personally? Money doesn't make emotional harm right. I don't know Brandon or his ex-wife.
Yeah, he f*#ked up and is suffering the consequences. Why kick him when he is down?
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fiftyplus
Social climber
Echo, OR
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240+ posts, all with some good advice and considerable insight. So many sides to a story, things can get convoluted. Question is... how many suggestions have been addressed/employed? As a recovering alcoholic myself, it was easy to lean toward the suggestions that were more appealing to me. Words like humility, community and mortgage all seem a little confusing in this arena. As a professional (in the field of addiction) it's hard to believe any program would encourage immediate work. I realize it's hard to comprehend, but if a true problem exists, nothing else should matter other than life. House, job and/or dog are all nothing without life. All of those can be replaced. If you're renting from your family and they are demanding payment, clearly you have compromised that agreement in the past.
Take care of self, don't get too well too quick.
It has been mentioned multiple times in this thread... why continue to keep it up when you don't need the financial support? Seeking external validation is a primary characteristic of those (us) who suffer from substance related issues.
Page 25 from the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book, Chapter "There is a Solution", "Almost none of us like the self searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of our shortcomings..."
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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NutAgain!:
I asked my son, "What is the thing you are struggling with the most in your transition from being a kid to being an adult?"
He replied, "Realizing that the world doesn't care about me."
I was very surprised, proud, and relieved to hear him say this. It's at the heart of a strong difference I had with my ex in how to raise children. NutAgain!, and what was a point of view of your ex?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Major thread drift, but for Yuri so I don't start another thread!
My ex tended to live more in-the-moment choosing courses of action that made the kids the happiest right then, building up their sense of self
I sought to find a balance between giving kids positive feelings in a given moment, versus building up their tolerance to adversity.
Specific example: when my son was a toddler, his mom would let him win a game every time. I would alternate between letting him win and winning myself. I thought he should learn how to win and lose. His mom and I would have arguments about this. Another example: if he stubbed his toe, my focus would be consoling him, saying "it's ok," and he would mimic saying that to himself. My ex would help him hit the step with his hand and say "bad step" or something like that and he'd copy that. I thought that was wrong because it was failing to accept a personal role in the cause-and-effect and not forming an accurate map of reality.
She saw the world as bosses and servants, and wanted to raise our kids to be the bosses.
In the silicon valley upper-middle class Indian culture we were immersed in, it was very common for kids to run around wild at restaurants or social gatherings, interrupting adult conversations and the adults would mostly find it charming and indulge the kids.
It was a bit horrifying for me, having grown up closer to the school of "children are to be seen and not heard" and "don't make a scene." It was more difficult because the adults at my table were oblivious to this culture clash as they talked and laughed loudly, disturbing other people around us (whether real or imagined by me), and as a hyper-sensitive emotional scene reader (a childhood survival requirement for me), I would be in fight or flight mode trying to arbitrate between pleasing the tables around us versus pleasing my own table. My ex would get pissed at me when I cared what people around us thought. I hadn't thought about this stuff for years, and I can feel how much fight-or-flight mode energy I still have locked away in those frequently recurring moments from 15-20 years ago. This sets the scene a little more deeply for how different were our ideals and expectations of how to raise kids.
This conversation ties back to my appreciation of my son recognizing that "the world doesn't care about him." I see this as breaking out of the illusion created in the extended social scene of his childhood, where the adults are happy to interrupt whatever they are doing or whatever conversations they are having to indulge in whatever impulse he has to say something or show something. The world is not always smiling and encouraging and willing to stop and wait for you. This is not a normal baseline, from which one should be disappointed or think people are mean if they don't rise to that expectation. It's just another way of saying "the world doesn't revolve around you."
In complex topics like this, there are many facets to explore, and my inclination is to include more detail for fuller coverage (and to better prepare the intellectual defenses for my viewpoint). I'm fighting that tendency in an effort to keep this shorter. I already deleted several paragraphs pursuing different details ;)
This whole post is back-story for the point I was making earlier, and why I was appreciative of my son seeing reality more closely to the way I perceive it, creating space to have a more effective coping mechanism to deal with that reality:
Don't get upset if the world doesn't care about you
Learn to soothe yourself, and to care for yourself
That creates space to choose a supportive network of people who share your vision of how to be
That's as close as I can get to steering this back to the thread topic :)
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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NutAgain!, are you saying that alcoholism is one of possible coping mechanism and to get rid of alcoholism a person must find a way to switch to another coping pattern?
Do you have any idea how to switch between two different coping strategies?
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Zay
climber
Monterey, Ca
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Hey there, Say, Braindon-
Too many replies to read... everything work out???
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2019 - 07:12am PT
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Zay, how do you define working out? I’m still in my home, have heat, power, food, and internet. Now have a bank account with a six dollar balance as well. I’m not dying, just did a run Sunday on all snow, four and a half miles up, four and a half down. Only 2k elevation gain, but we did it in two and a half hours. Pulled a hamstring like a motherf*#ker. No job, no car, wife is for sure gone, but in my opinion, I’m doing pretty ok. My pendulum is swinging, so I have some highs and lows. Regardless, anything I endure with a generally good attitude seems to me so be good for me. A learning experience, making me f*#king stronger. I cuss a lot, sorry. Life is so not what you expect sometimes, but there’s always something positive to be taken from negative times.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Do you have any idea how to switch between two different coping strategies?
First the afflicted must realize they're broken and need to change. They have to want to change themselves.
Then the path forward is at least possible. For some it's years and years of therapy with a compatible shrink who understands them. Others find solace in group therapy or programs like AA which try to offer that long-term support structure for the tough uphill road ahead.
Some will also need drugs in conjunction with therapy. Psychosis does not go away nor does severe depression/bi-polar/uni-polar type conditions.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2019 - 07:21am PT
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Currently I’m on drugs for depression and am running quite a bit. The running is for sure trading one addiction for another. Everyone in rehab was against that, my doctor says go for it, run your heart out. Right hamstring hurts so bad. Walking sucks today, but that run on Sunday was frigging sweet bub!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Yuri: yes- in my world view, alcoholism is one example of the general class of negative patterns we acquire in an ineffective attempt to deal with underlying issues. These issues can take many forms, but if you peel back the layers of the onion enough, they boil down to universal themes like: “I’m not worthy.” “I’m not loveable” “I don’t belong” “I’m not enough”. Like many other negative patterns, alcohol or any other addiction can be very effective at avoiding looking at a problem, effective to avoid being present and seeing reality with as few filters as possible, avoiding listening to our internal dialog. But it doesn’t make the problem go away and it has negative side effects.
Some people turn to religion, or exercise, or work, or various other things they can strenuously pursue that at least has positive side effects while they avoid whatever they are trying to avoid.
The thing that has been most helpful for me to deal with the underlying issues is this:
https://www.hoffmaninstitute.org
I tend toward the analytical side, and this process gave me the most accurate model I’ve seen for understanding myself and other people, including our irrational behaviors. Further, it was like having a few years of psychotherapy packed into a week, in terms of impact to defuse my emotional land mines. It is by no means a magic cure-all, but for me and many other people it is a clear direction to apply energy toward solving personal problems that is really effective.
I did observe a few people who got less out of it, because they seemed to be there for other people or for whatever reason they did not put in the work to get a positive result. They had an ax to grind, to prove that it didn't work. That itself is a negative pattern, along the lines of "I'm not fixable" and people sabotage themselves to prove they are right and to avoid the risk of really trying hard and making themselves vulnerable. These people probably put in a few hours of time on the pre-work before showing up. I spent ~ 60 hours on it, because I was holed up in a motel room in self-flagellation mode away from my family, and I was highly motivated to get to the bottom of my sh!t. I had fully accepted that I needed to try something different besides “just try harder”, and I sought out some environment like this to create a safe space for unpacking my issues. I realized I needed that after reading a few self-help books and having overwhelming emotional responses to certain topics, having moments of panic like “keep that finger in the crack and don’t let that dam burst”. I found the place through Internet searches, but almost everyone else there had been inspired because they saw major changes in the life of friends or family members who had gone. People there are a wide spectrum, but mostly high functioning people including some super-successful executive types, and psychologists doing continuation of their self development as part of their career (and personal well-being). Not everybody was frazzled and flaming out in life, but some were. But underneath our various facades and very different types of problems, the common small set of childhood themes are so remarkably similar, and the overall process creates a strong sense of compassion for people struggling with whatever problems.
I was coming from a relatively low place so the immediate relief in my life was spectacular. Not everybody has that intense of a reaction, but everybody was glad they invested the time and effort to be there. A key point for me too, was recognizing that emotional health is an ongoing process, more like exercise than like reading a book and gaining knowledge. We must make some effort and ongoing good decisions to keep our bodies in shape, and the same thing goes for keeping our emotions in shape. The Hoffman Process gives a great set of tools for that ongoing work, and a supportive network to tap into if you want it.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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The running is for sure trading one addiction for another.
That's true. And you have already injured yourself because you don't know how to pace yourself. Everything you have ever done, are doing, or are going to do is too extreme. Your still in your guilt/punishment/low esteem/gonna be a hero/saint/winner conditioned cycle.
I know because I have been there. Doing is all you know. You actually need to put a full stop on all doing, and learn how to live w/o fixing one thing. Stop trying to fix things, including yourself---accept everything and everyone as they are.
1.Your parents were messed up.
2.Your messed up.
3.See it as it is--- all conditioned behavior to compensate for what it is you feel is wrong, missing, lacking, shameful, F'up in your life.
4.Society will not look better sober, it will look even more dysfunctional w/o booze because it is, and your not an idiot. It is not your fault nor anyone else's. We are stOOpid emotional Neanderthals.
5.Stop construction work immediately---it is a conditioned dysfunctional reward/ punishment loop tied in with the booze. You physically overcompensate and then you drink. No?
6.Start very very small or you will hit the booze again because you are a self fulfilling prophesying failure.
7.Study Buddhism until you puke.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I suggest you retire from this forum for a bit and get real with the issues you face. Brandon, I feel for you and hope that you get back on track with your life, but you need to be working with professionals not cherry picking posts to this thread. You seem out of control of your emotions and roll from one idea to another.
Small steps not huge leaps are needed. Frank assessment of your issues and the path to real change are called for and this needs to come from competent professionals and not internet forum monday morning quarterbacks.
The road ahead will be difficult and clarity will take time but you seem like you have some resilience and a degree of toughness...what you really need is to find the correct path and take the tiny, consistent steps to fruition.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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I suggest you retire from this forum for a bit and get real with the issues you face.
In some ways I agree with that. On the other hand the worst thing for a recovering person is isolation. If the forum gives some form of connectivity, it's a good thing.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Brandon- Anti-depressants are the first thing prescribed for alcoholics.
Anti-depressants can often bring on vivid dreams.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The running is for sure trading one addiction for another. Everyone in rehab was against that I disagree with this a lot. If you're an addictive type, it will never go away, IMO, it will always be something. Nailing that addiction to something reasonably healthy and productive is definitely the one and only way out.
I tend to agree with Donini as well, but that premise assumes the mental health industry is filled with people who know what they are doing - however the reality I've found is it isn't - a psych major is one of the easiest degrees you can get and classes are full of damaged kids there more to figure themselves out than to make a difference - later their primary interest turns more to getting a rather meager paycheck out of your insurance company to put food on their table, above all else. IMO - in general. What to do instead? Read a lot, self help books are a thriving industry and there are some classics out there - and connect with others like you - which happens to some degree here - and yeah, it's good to go see a shrink, but don't let that be your only solace.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ The running joke at the last university where I taught concerned the social work department's motto: "We take broken people and turn them into care-givers." The fact was: "We take broken people and turn them into broken people making more broken people."
There are SOME mental-health professionals that are very good. The substance-abuse professional that leases our bottom floor is very good. But, sadly, they are few and far between. Far too many are just bringing their own pathology into their "counseling," and the oversight at the State level is a joke.
This thread is a train-wreck of "caring" diagnoses, co-dependency, narcissism, and inappropriate "sharing." And anybody who calls it what it IS gets dog-piled by the codependent people here. Brandon doesn't need THIS! He needs to be in a rehab center until he is released by a professional (if he had the balls and self-awareness to go get checked in!). "Isolation" is a ridiculous concern. He's already shared that he's in regular contact with people outside of this thread. And this thread is about the WORST way imaginable to "solve" any "isolation" problems!
This thread is just contributing to his narcissism, which is a fundamental aspect of the addictive psychology. HE won't shut it down. But all you "caring" people should have the sense to care in an appropriate way, which virtually by definition means NOT on a public forum!
So, let the dog-piling on me begin; you'll be wasting your time, because you won't be affecting me, but, you know, if it makes you FEEL good (which is all that matters)....
Meanwhile, SOMEBODY who actually does care, should insist that he get into VERY structured and ongoing treatment. He's made enough orbital-module statements on this very thread that his friends should be MUCH more concerned about his mental state than the codependency here seems to recognize.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Lol. The final word from the grand knower of all things.
LOL... posted from an account with 26 posts on a politard thread and this one.
Pffffttttt
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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There is no right way to get sober. Brandon will find his way, so long as he doesn't drink. His path may not be our path; it may be wildly different than ours.
However, I have been a little concerned about the lack of mention of alcohol in B's posts. I may get abuse from this question, but Brandon -how many days since your last drink?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Madbolter1...we are in agreement.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Thanks, Jim. I'm glad to hear it.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I have seen the “ professionals “ Screwup the treatment of two recovering alcoholics and almost lead to their deaths ( The wrong depression medications and not monitored enough ) So forgive me if I don’t give them complete confidence over other people who may have experienced or seen similar situations.
Brandon, as I said here before take everything you read here with a grain of salt. Probably the best thing you can get out of this is just general support and caring. Is it narcissism or codependence, who cares, if it helps it helps.
Ultimately you are the best judge of what is best for you. Give credence to the professionals first, but realize they can make mistakes, or may not know what’s the best for you in particular. But Don’t use that as an excuse to not do hard things.
Then give credence to the people who have been through what you’re going through and been successful, while again realizing what worked for them may not work for you.
Finally pick up tidbits from everyone else.
Just a reminder from what I posted earlier, make sure you have a good doctor prescribing depression drugs. There are multiple types like Zoloft, Paxil etc. If they put you on the wrong one it can do more harm than good. Even with the right one the dosage needs to be correct, which could take some fine-tuning. They should be checking in with you periodically to see how things are going like at least once a week. And adjusting accordingly.
And be wary of the short term fixes like Ativan or Valium. They may get you through a anxiety attack but they are very addictive and can cause long-term issues. They may have not given you anything like that, but again I’ve seen screwup‘s and want to give you a heads up so you are aware
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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I may get abuse from this question, but Brandon -how many days since your last drink?
To be honest, that is in my mind. I wish all the best for him, but having hallucinations and DTs while in rehab makes me wonder if he really did detox. Not passing judgement, but as a recovering alcoholic, it raises questions.
The reason I say this is my detox took six days and cost $5k. Before rehab.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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yes this thread is an odd show, yes it is full of oversharing and boundary issues, plenty of questionable advice and odd digital-world diagnoses, but we all gotta find our way somehow.
I hope you're staying strong Brandon, and at least minimizing the sauce. Give me a call sometime soon, and I'll do the same. Sorry to miss your call-back the other day.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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I suggest you retire from this forum for a bit and get real with the issues you face.
In some ways I agree with that. On the other hand the worst thing for a recovering person is isolation. If the forum gives some form of connectivity, it's a good thing.
Yes, what would John do then? Post all day on another thread?
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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I think Brandon has been pretty smart with all the varied suggestions. He doesn't battle people, which is something I could try harder to do.
There are also online AA groups, I'm on one that a bunch of people I got sober with also are on. If I lived in a smaller town, I'd absolutely add that as part of my routine. Have to admit, as I've been in AA meetings as I travel, some of them are pretty...well, lacking in sobriety. Was at one where a guy and his non-sober partner cuddled during the meeting, and another guy who was apparently a regular was allowed to share because apparently in that meeting if you had not drank THAT day you could share. Without that in place, the meeting wouldn't have much speaking. And smoking in the meeting room was allowed... Maybe that works for some, but I walked away from that place needing another meeting!
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
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how many days since your last drink?
Perfect! Cut to the chase. The crux of the immediate issue.
Enough of the verbal diarrhea.
Susan
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Brandon -how many days since your last drink?
+1000
You know, Brandon can (and probably will) come on here and say he's stone cold sober, but we can't see whether his eyes are clear or bloodshot, or if he smells of booze. I've been around plenty of heavy drinkers (many of them in denial about it when it was obvious), and saw a friend literally drink himself to death before the age of 50. I've grown weary of BS.
Is there anyone who is in physical contact with Brandon verify that he is indeed sober and that his breath doesn't reek? Or are we all getting our chains jerked and time wasted here?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2019 - 09:04am PT
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I’ve been sober for a little over a month. Feeling ostracized, so I’m checking out. Not from life, just ST.
No, HK, there is nobody on ST who is close to me. maybe High Desert DJ, he was up at Dartmouth, but he’s fallen off the map. Wilbeer is a few hours away, but that’s a long way in a Vanagon. Perswig lives in Maine, but I’m guessing that it’s 4-5 hours to his zone. All alone, boo hoo. I’ll persevere man, it’s just a super rough time right now.
Home meeting in Warner tonight, I always look forward to it. Lots of good friends there.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Brandon - I am sorry if my post and the related comments has upset you.
My hope is that you are clean and sober, and would be happy to celebrate even so much as one day. The reason I asked is that I have sponsored in AA a small number of people who, even as they went to meetings and shared about life, eventually came to a point where they shared they had actually slipped up, or had continued to drink in a controlled way, or had turned to prescription drugs or whatever; that they'd been keeping it secret, and it had come to a point where to do so was causing them more pain than to be honest.
People getting sober often want desperately to please those in their corner, and suffer at the thought of letting them down.
I was concerned that since there had been so little(none, pretty much) reference to dealing with new sobriety, that perhaps.... I'll come right out and say it - that you may have slipped and just didn't want to let "us" down by telling us. I know that can seem like the most horrible thing. Very tough.
And, though I knew my post had the potential to upset you, I was hoping it would give you the opportunity to deal with it. Believe me - I wish you only a sober path forward.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Question for those in the AA or similar recovery worlds:
Does being "sober" mean that you've 100% abstained from alcohol, or rather that you've not become intoxicated (which of course is somewhat subjective)?
In other words, in normal conversation, I think it would be accurate to say you're sober if you've had one (or maybe more) drinks, as long as you're not drunk. But I'm not sure that would pass muster in the AA world.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2019 - 10:25am PT
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Heah, maybe I am butthurt. Maybe I’m just a puss and don’t deserve to even shoot the sh#t with you guys. What the f*#k about that? Because that’s how I’m f*#king feeling. It’s the worst feeling ever.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Whambulance in order here? Narcissism is the bane of the addictive personality. Get ACTUAL help, not the cheap group-hug of a thread like this. OWN the vast damage you have caused to others, and you won't be seeking public group-hugs like this!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2019 - 10:31am PT
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Don’t need a whaambluance, just figuring out how to navigate a good life.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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yes this thread is an odd show, yes it is full of oversharing and boundary issues, plenty of questionable advice and odd digital-world diagnoses, but we all gotta find our way somehow.
Amen to that brother. We all have stories of struggle, defeat, tragedy and sorrow to share in a common thread. The taboos and stigmas of posting being defective human beings are falling away.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Madbolter - when a person is newly sober, it's smart to focus on STAYING SOBER first and foremost. In AA, which Brandon is doing, there is a system to deal with *the wreckage of our past,* as they call it.
To see that with any sort of relative clarity takes time. Some things, very little time. But others, much more time.
If I had a person less than a year sober wanting to make an amends with me, I'd tell them "No amends needed at this time. If, after you've got a tear under your belt and you still feel the need, come back and we'll talk about it.
Reason being, a newly sober person often sees damage that didn't really affect the other person.I had a girl trying to reach me while I was traveling several years ago. She didn't say it was an amends call, just trying to touch base. Well, I was like "What a PITA." And keptputting off responding. Finally she emails me with an ammeends for "not respecting my suggestions and sober experience." She said she TRIED to.make direct amends(hence the touching base phone messages) but hadn't been able to and so this was the best she could do.
I felt bad for my procrastination, but danged if I ever noticed her being anything but great.
I look at what I thought was "amends-worthy in way sobriety and I laugh. Plus, some things that WERE legitimate amends, I didn't fully understand the level of my involvement in the situation, and often believed it was all *my fault* when that was hardly the case. Or, I played a portion of an amends without understanding a more significant hurt.
And beyond that - amends are actually for our own benefit, which might be difficult for a newly sober, or non-AAer to comprehend.
In early sobriety, IMO, a person short-changes everyone involved in doing amends so quickly.
And in AA, sober means you didn't drink alcohol today. AA doesn't count othersubstances/behaviors. Many people in recovery often face other addictions, but that is a personal choice as to where their sobriety lays with that. AA just is about alcohol. Of course, if one works the Steps, the other issues are likely to present themselves. I for one still haven't taken the first step toward working on my sugar addiction,and may due without ever doing so.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Thanks Jebus and Happie for answering my Q; I've been following this thread and just trying to figure out what some things mean that aren't totally obvious re: sobriety.
By the way, a lot of people posting here (myself included) have had issues with excess drinking and I think we relate to Brandon and want to help because of our own issues, but it's hard for me to see how much beyond recommending getting qualified professional help is really going to do much.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Brandon congratulations on a month of sobriety. If you can do that I’d guess you have a good chance of beating it.
I don’t know you. But I’ve read your posts for 8 years now and appreciate your positivity in your body of posts and consider you an important member of the SuperTopo tribe.
I’d recommend looking at the posters name before reading their comment. Someone who has mostly just put you down multiple times should just be ignored.
It’s no skin off my back, whatever you do or say. If someone has any issues then i don’t understand why they would want to participate in this thread. I only wish you the best and hope you are on an upwards trajectory.
Everyone has made mistakes, just do the right thing now.
You’re a good person.
You can do this.
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John M
climber
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Its nearly impossible on a forum to hold someone accountable. In person, with people who have been down that road and aren't easily fooled is likely the best way to be held accountable. Thats one thing that AA can provide. I say "can provide" and not do provide because as Terri points out, not all meetings are equal or up to the task.
But that isn't the only kind of support people need. Sometimes they just need people to listen. The reason I don't recommend talking on a forum is that some people don't get this.
I will just say this about mads post. He hasn't met Brandon. I have no idea what he bases his "narcissistic" diagnosis on. Does Brandon need attention? sure.. who doesn't after going through something traumatic. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are narcissistic.
I would be more likely to say mad is narcissistic then I would call Brandon that. But thats me. I respect mads ability to aid climb. He has "mad" skills and courage in that department. In other areas of life. well..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Yeah, the huge difference in evaluating a person who has lived a demonstrably productive life compared to one who has not is that it's possible for professionals to recognize the narcissism in the latter. In this case, the substance-abuse professional I mentioned who leases from us has read this thread, and he told me flat-out that this is a train wreck, including the obvious narcissism.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I don't see an issue with this thread nor B's general direction.
I do think it's unproductive and unfortunate to get butt hurt over a few posts, but that kind of over-sensitivity to feedback, good or bad, is also an attribute of an alcoholic...
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Brandon there is a ton of good paying work right now around North Conway shoveling roofs. Not sure how far that is from Milton Mills.
Many, many tons of good paying work.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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AA is, in an abstract way changing one addiction for another.
I attended up to 5 meetings a day for a solid 9 months.
Got burned out on the same old war stories.
Got involved in Refuge Recovery which is a Buddhist based
form of recovery and I highly recommend it.
Alas I thought I'd kicked my addictions
and I did for a good spell but the booze
caught me in its web again.
Gave up all other substances, and I've tried them all.
Brandon is a good guy struggling through a rough time
and he cared enough to reach out to me.
That I appreciate so very much.
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perswig
climber
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(Holy hell, Tomcat.
Nice to see you; hope you're well!
Dale)
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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I'm well Dale, thanks, hope you are too. Well except my younger son came home last weekend and left Monday with my leashless Cobras, Lynx and half of my screws!
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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BJ-you should watch the Seinfeld episode where a friend of the group gets sober and makes their amends, a George Costanza gets in a tiff because he doesn't receive one.
BJ=George
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Brandon there is a ton of good paying work right now around North Conway shoveling roofs. Not sure how far that is from Milton Mills.
Many, many tons of good paying work.
I wonder if he will get in touch with you re: this work?
If I was dead broke I'd jump at the chance. Better than griping about it online, and asking for $ from strangers.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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madbolter1:
... the substance-abuse professional I mentioned who leases from us has read this thread, and he told me flat-out that this is a train wreck, including the obvious narcissism. madbolter1, I apologize for my confusion.
Could you please share your definition of narcissism, that is applicable to the context of this discussion.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Try looking up the psychological definition.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Seems a little overly invested... in something...to show a thread on ST to a person offsite.
Did the person include you as one of the passengers of the train wreck?
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Treezypoof
Trad climber
Cyberia
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I guess if you’re demonstrably productive, you don’t have anything better to do.
Or he’s bullshitting us. Regardless, seems like a nice guy, sure can type.
Brilliant riellyesque sidespray regarding the landlordership, btw. I’m looking up narcissist right now!
Chugga chugga choo choo!
Quote it while you can. Lol.
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Degaine
climber
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BJ wrote:
That would be real and spectacular
Indeed.
I hear there's also good work in becoming a Jewish dentist.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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madbolter1:
Try looking up the psychological definition [of narcissism].
madbolter1, are you talking about psychological or psychoanalytical definition of narcissism?
According to Google:
Psychology:
selfishness, involving a sense of entitlement, a lack of empathy, and a need for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
Psychoanalysis:
self-centeredness arising from failure to distinguish the self from external objects, either in very young babies or as a feature of mental disorder.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Seems a little overly invested... in something... That’s pretty much all his posts - or at least what I can gather from the one or two sentences I read before skipping on to the next.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Well, I don't know Brandon, but I do actually care that he succeeds. Since I happen to have a relevant professional leasing from my company, I wanted to get a professional opinion.
It seems that I'm the only one here who bothered to do that. Others seem content to just "care" in this distant, codependent way. You might ask yourself if you're actually helping on this thread or actually hurting.
As just one example, the passive-voice crap here is just that. Brandon isn't "going through a hard time." NO! He's experiencing the actual consequences of HIS values, priorities, and choices. He's not just passively "going through" something. He's DONE this to HIMSELF, and how that gets represented has a huge psychological effect on the all-important SELF assessment process he is hopefully engaging in.
It makes a huge difference to say, "He's going through a hard patch," compared to, "He's dug himself a deep hole that we hope he'll get out of, IF he completely reassesses his values, priorities, and choices."
The former is passive and enables an irresponsible "cast" to "the situation." The latter is active and points Brandon right at the actual root of the problems HIS choices have causes for him.
Genuine recovery starts by taking responsibility, and most of the "caring" posts here literally deflect that process.
So, are you helping or hurting, caring or enabling? I actually care, even though I don't know him personally. But genuine caring is NOT the codependent fluff that defines most of this thread.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
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I wanted to get a professional opinion.
Oh my. You’re much smarter than that!
Getting a meaningful “professional opinion” from reading a ST string????
That your tenants would even offer up a “professional opinion” after reading ST posts gives me the shivers. Please don’t be hoodwinked just because they make enough to pay the rent on time and have a few papers on the wall.
I hope your professional tenants read all the posts of all the threads on the first page of the forum to get the gist that 99% of the ST forum is a delightful train wreck of one sort or another.
Susan
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2019 - 12:57pm PT
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North Conway is two and a half hours. I’m for sure interested, I’m a good shoveler. Need three hundred bucks to get my car out of the shop, but I might be able to borrow one to go work for a few days. I could send you my email if you have any leads on who to talk to up there about work.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Getting a meaningful “professional opinion” from reading a ST string????
C'mon, Susan, YOU are smarter than that. The opinion is not a diagnosis. It's looking at a PUBLIC thread and an opinion about how "helpful" this train-wreck actually could be in principle.
The "caring" here is minimally, if at all, helpful, and is quite possibly harmful. IF you know Brandon and actually care, then you deal with him personally, NOT on a public thread in pretty obviously codependent fashion.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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^^^^ Hear, Hear!
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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"Substance Abuse Professional:" Usually a person who got clean or sober and then realized they were using during the career-development phase of life and now have limited options.
Or do you mean a drug dealer, which could legitimately use the term on their tax return.
Sorry Madbolter, but you're incorrect about recovery. The paramount thing is to not imbibe. Full stop. The rest follows in whatever timeframe it follows. You can be one of those "hardass" soberticians, but most other soberticians(made up word) tend to tell the n00bs to let their railings slide off the back like water on a duck.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Or the CEO of Philip Morris?
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John M
climber
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It seems that I'm the only one here who bothered to do that. Others seem content to just "care" in this distant, codependent way. You might ask yourself if you're actually helping on this thread or actually hurting.
maybe you should ask yourself that. Brandon's situation is more complicated than this thread indicates and goes a lot deeper. Is this thread the best place to air it out? Probably not. But guess what, sometimes we don't always have the "best" solution available to us. Brandon already did 19 days of a 30 day treatment. He left early for personal reasons. He has posted the reeaons on this thread so I don't mind sharing them. He was hallucinating. He realizes now that he made a poor choice to leave. But thats the way these things go. They are often messy. Many of us tried to get him to go back, but by the time we found out he was gone it was too late. Treatment centers often don't let people return. The money was spent. It was gone and raising the funds again likely wasn't going to happen. Many here also supported Brandon in getting treatment, plus we gave him tough love. And now we are just trying to support him where he is.
All the things you complain that we aren't doing some of us here have done. But we don't control Brandon. Nor do we control the internet.
So lets examine what your post did. Brandon is broke. His wife left him. He is trying hard to overcome alcoholism, but it is complicated and messy. He asked for help in a place where he felt like he had friends. Some people chose to attack him for asking for help. Some people gave him the kind of support that enables an alcoholic to keep going as an alcoholic. Some people gave him compassionate but tough love. Some people were just plain mean.
And then you come along and think that you have it all figured out. Brandon should go into professional treatment, and people here should stop posting to him because its just feeding his "narcissism". Narcissism that you believe he has because some "professional" read this thread and told you that was what was going on. Good grief. That is so ridiculous that any professional would diagnose that just by reading this thread and then make recommendations based on that, that its hard to comprehend. My guess is that he or she never thought that you would post something like what you did. But the great understander that you are decided it was true and that you knew just what Brandon needed. So you posted up.
And now what happens? Donini agrees with you and that kicks one of the supports that Brandon has out from under him.
You don't know the entire story. I have talked to him and I don't know the entire story. I would never pull the rug out from under someone who is scrambling to find a way. But that is what you did.
Is this the best place for brandon to get help? problaby not. But sometimes we don't always have access to the "best". So we do the best that we can with what we have. That is often messy because people are messy.
Keep your head up Brandon. You can do it. Keep going to AA.. Keep exercising. ( though moderate it) keep looking for work. Don't drink. If you have had a drink, then stop. Beyond that.. keep going.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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And then you come along and think that you have it all figured out.
Utterly ridiculous.
This thread has become literally absurd. As I say, train-wreck.
And "Brandon left early for personal reasons." Whaaaat? Yeah, okay, apparently you're good with that. Keep giving money; money always helps! Righto!
I've said all I care to say here. I have no need to be here, and I've said my piece. Opinions are like azzholes: Everyone has one, and they are invariably stinky. I've shown mine. Stinky. Sure enough. Many others here are even stinkier.
As I've been saying, no actual good can come of it. So, I'm out.
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John M
climber
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And "Brandon left early for personal reasons." Whaaaat? Yeah, okay, apparently you're good with that. Keep giving money; money always helps! Righto!
nope.. never said that. just realized that these things don't always go straight forward. In fact they almost never do. It likely is never..
Edit: Utterly ridiculous.
yes.. I shouldn't have said "think that you know". I should have said "act as though you know".
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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madbolter1 makes every thread he participates in all about himself. He's captain narc of the narcs - and apparently just smart enough to see he can't stand himself - but no more.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Brandon probably the best way to get cash in your hand would be to place an ad in the Conway Daily Sun. There is a lot of shoveling going on, one guy I work with and his clan just did a 196,000 sq ft industrial building last weekend. We have a lot of property management companies too, but that means waiting until next week for a check I would think.
If you are not in a position to transport ladders then a crew would be better.
Dwight & Sons Roofing- Hurd Roofers - Rotten Rock Landscaping - Gordon T. Burke and Sons.
If I get a hard lead I will contact you here or at your e-mail addy up thread.
Good luck!
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Treezypoof
Trad climber
Cyberia
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Jeezuz
It’s interesting that I always sympathized with MB1 during the whole WOS debacle despite the gratuitous WOTs but it seems SS ended up in a better place in the end.
Time does seem to wound some heels while failure and redemption builds character and brings peace.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
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The opinion
However, you characterized it initially as a “professional opinion”. That usually suggests some higher level of credibility and insight. Now it’s just garden variety “opinion”?
Yup. Just like an arse hole....everyone got one. Or as I like to say (sometimes). “It’s my opinion and everyone is entitled to it”. ;-)
Susan.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2019 - 03:20pm PT
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John M, check your email.
Anita, yeah. Not what I’d planned on. How’s it going?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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However, you characterized it initially as a “professional opinion”. That usually suggests some higher level of credibility and insight. Now it’s just garden variety “opinion”?
Susan, I think that you're conflating "professional opinion" with "diagnosis of Brandon." The "professional opinion" concerns the "helpfulness" of this thread. Oh, and Brandon's obvious narcissism that people have all (sadly, myself included) contributed to by carrying on this long. Nobody is "diagnosing Brandon's" total condition via a thread! But it's pretty easy to "diagnose this thread" itself and have a credible professional opinion about the helpfulness or lack thereof of this thread.
And the only "about me" here is that I have an opinion that is quite obviously not shared by the majority (not new), so I have to argue harder for it, since I'm arguing opposed to many more people. Oh, and a standard gotcha is to just say: "You make it all about you." There, that accusation, I guess, makes it so. Pretty lame diversionary tactic.
In the end, this thread is by Brandon and (by his own desire) about Brandon. I've been concerned that this thread is not helpful and may even be harmful. One professional is also thusly concerned, for whatever that's worth... apparently not much to the majority here that are so confident that they know how best to deal with Brandon. Apparently every opinion is as good as a "professional one" when it comes to the "treatment" of Brandon.
Interestingly, the most recent posts all attack the mental health profession in general (I generally share that skepticism, btw). So it does beg the question: Exactly what "treatment" with/by "professionals" DO you all espouse?
The professional to whom I refer treats people on the basis of court-orders, so he is obviously considered credible by State-level courts. Apparently that's not credible enough for you, and you don't think that "professional" are in-general credible.
If that's the case, what do you propose in the way of "professional" treatment?
And if that's not the case, then why is that the professional to which I refer apparently is just not credible to you, when the COURTS think he's credible?
Anyway, I guess, carry on. As I said, Brandon has managed to get a pile of people jaw-jacking all about him for hundreds of posts. I won't contribute further to that train-wreck.
I only jumped back in here just now to respond to you, Susan, because I do highly value you, and I'm sorry when we disagree. In this case, however, I think that we're disagreeing about semantics, so I wanted to try to clear that up.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2019 - 09:55pm PT
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Oh, and Brandon's obvious narcissism that people have all (sadly, myself included) contributed to by carrying on this long.
So, stop posting. Everyone. Let this one die.
I’d nuke it but a lot of people put time into writing.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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I have a friend who dated a therapist who solely worked with DWI people required to take her guidance. She joked that it was the easiest money out there because the people rarely wanted to deal with the reason they were there, and they'd end up just talking about light topics for the sessions. She also partied like a maniac. She also limited her practice to cash payments only. No insurance.
I don't have to show this thread to my sister, who just got her masters last year from Marquette U in Wisconsin, and works with emotionally disadvantaged people to carve a life forward, or her husband who is a supervisor for children's services, also with the educational credentials and 30 years in the field, to know they would NEVER declare this thread in a negative capacity, much less refer to it as a train wreck or put a label on an individual.
Getting sober us fighting for one's life. Some, like me, get off relatively easily, when it comes to taking a drink. Others fight tooth and nail. To have even one drink, for a person on a path to recovery, is a win for the monster that is addiction, and that requires human sacrifice to survive.
Nobody who wants to post on this thread is going to stop, Bolted, because of your callous opinions. If I'm imagining the disease as an entity, you're standing in the darkness of its shadow and egging it on with some of your comments.
There IS a way to offer hard insight without brutalizing a person.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Brandon-:
Oh, and Brandon's obvious narcissism that people have all (sadly, myself included) contributed to by carrying on this long.
So, stop posting. Everyone. Let this one die.
I’d nuke it but a lot of people put time into writing. Brandon-, you are as much narcissist as madbolter1 and other 95% of Supertopo members.
This thread has a lot of useful information for addicts and people with other psychological issue.
Please do not nuke it.
1. Just ignore what people without "A" issues (like me, madbolter1 etc.) posted.
2. Pay attention only to posts of people with similar experience.
Just figure out what 80% of their advice should be ignored.
Anyway, according to my experience 80% of all "professionals" would not provide any real help to you.
I wish you a good luck with both 80/20 challenges!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Brandon I'll stop posting if that's what *you* truly want. I appreciate that you didn't nuke it and let these words and thoughts stand in case they provide value to others.
Claims of narcissism or trying to take advantage of people are utter B.S. In your 2nd post to this thread (3rd overall) you rescind the request of money and you state you were being selfish and need to be humble. A narcissist would not say things like that. When people put themselves out there and then other people use this to put them down is low, and one of my pet peeves. Your posting history doesn't show you to be self obsessed, your are more inquisitive and humble than many posters here. *My* take on this thread is it quickly evolved from a monetary request to a show of support (with unfortunately some piling on of negativity, and perhaps some legitimate concerns of enabling). I think it's a great thing to ask for and accept support. It's hard for men to do this, and it takes some strength to overcome your ego. It is not a sign of narcissism, it's a sign of being engaged with your fellow man and being humble.
What some people fail to understand is there is more than one thing at play, or way to look at things, or way to deal with things (like most things in life). I would surmise that yes most people struggle with addictions as the result of poor choices they made earlier, and ultimately it is their responsibility to change their thinking and behavior to deal with it, however long term substance abuse changes the chemistry of the body and how you think and people with empathy can see that and understand that it can be harder for some people to control than others (not to mention people are just born with different levels of addictive personalities).
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Hey Brandon, disregard peeps saying it is only about you---it is about all of us trying to figure this shite out, this shite called life.
Macho, mental health, and alcohol/drugs have entangled strings for many a climber of all stripes. Shammers are just one.
To get to the Summit, Cory Richards had to loose it all.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2234616/life-after-near-death-cory-richards
“The central message of PTSD research is that memories are not created equal, unlike men,” Morris wrote in an e-mail.
Good Luck Brother.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, brandon_ and all... do your best-- keep up the good work...
it is never, 'for nothing' ...
say,
how very odd, or, interesting, how things work, in and on, our life trails...
due to the share on the THREAD: turkish bath/berryessa gloryhole, spillway, and a share about the
'devils' throat iguszu waterfall, well:
i happened to come across this:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
if you go and see the clip, of the movie (which i have not seen, but, just might find it and, get it) well:
the person that shared there, (that put the clip up??) had a
very interesting part of their life, that they shared:
it was about how their '20's was very bad...
however, later on, in the years that came-- they could
see the change...
things changed for good-- that person GREW and learned and saw more than they could see, during the the 'troubles years'
THERE is a quote, (I THINK it came from the movie)
“If I disappeared from the world..
the dreams and wishes I couldn’t think about, things that I couldn’t do when I was alive, and things I want to redo.. there must be many regrets left behind.
But the world where I existed and the world where I vanished.. I want to believe they are different.
It may be an insignificant change, but it’s proof that I was alive. Struggling and worrying, these are proof that we’re alive.”
now, THIS was quote, at the end of the movie:
The world where I existed and the world where I vanished. I want to believe they are different.
and you know-- IT CAN be different-- we do not have to think of
having to see the 'two worlds' (one that vanish from, or, one that we never existed in)...
it does not have to be, as if we were never here...
that is why we share 'remembrances threads, etc, here' ... so we can remember those that went before us, and have helped us, or made us smile...
we ARE all here, to do the best we can, and the world,
as we pass-on-into-eternity, WILL be better for us having been here:
we may not still have a marriage... or, the job that we may have lost...
or, a promotion, etc, but:
IF--we care to do our best, now...
AND, if we 'catch the vision' that we are here for interacting
with others, for good human growth and support, and friendships...
well-- our seeds will live on..
and grow good things for others...
*the young man's character, in that movie, was diagnosed with a brain tumor, and...
was thus, wondering if anyone would even know he had been in the
world, after he was gone... or, he would just 'vanish' ...
we all can help each other out, somehow and we all do, just by
'being us' ...
thus-- don't give up, Brandon_ you still have 'trails to forge' ...
you CAN do your best...
it just takes time...
(like the example of the gal? that shared her story, just
under that movie clip) ...
hard years, can change to good-- sadly, we only hear the bad stories, in the news... the good stories are there, but 'pushed out of the lime light' ....
edited... i think the first quote, too, from from the movie...
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D Murph
climber
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Brandon, how're you making out man?
Hope it's going well. Wish I could say the same for my brother. If you slip though no biggie, just keep trying!
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Brandon,
Was just thinking about you coming to play in the Honduran jungle. I just returned and if I recall correctly you about came down a few years ago for one of my crazy walkabouts. Take care, even though I've never met you I wish you the best. Let's go to a blank spot on the map!
Hugh
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2019 - 04:18pm PT
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Wish I could say that it’s going well these days, but I can’t. I have a policy of not lying or bullshitting.
Life f*#king sucks sometimes, but I’ll land on my feet. I always have at least.
Hope you all are thriving!
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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May 29, 2019 - 08:15pm PT
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Brandon, I hope things are going better for you. What's going on with you lately?
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