after hitler

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ecdh

climber

the east

Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 15, 2019 - 12:59pm PT

anyone else seen this? some confronting stuff, no less some of the footage, especially as its colorized. among all the other crazy stuff, the way the atomic bomb is woven into the narrative is something else.

i cant link it but just takes a google.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Polebridge, Montana

Jan 15, 2019 - 01:08pm PT

Will take a look when I have time as it looks to be a long video.

Contrary to the scare, the germans were never even close to developing the bomb. Hitler didn't understand the process and didn't back it or have the means to back something, that in the end took the might of the Manhattan Project to develop and the US was the only possible candidate.

Thanks for the heads up.

Arne

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 15, 2019 - 01:15pm PT

Luckily Hitler didn’t understand much. He ordered the Wehrmacht to try and turn the ME-262
into a bomber. LOL
He ordered the Navy to build battleships at the expense of subs. LOL
Best of all he attacked Russia. He thought he was better than Napoleon.

ecdh

climber

the east

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2019 - 01:18pm PT

yeah its 45mins and a few episodes tho ive just watched the first one.
the bomb stuff is to do with truman and stalin dividing up europe, at least as its described in this show.

aside from the nasty stuff, theres some incredible footage.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Polebridge, Montana

Jan 15, 2019 - 02:13pm PT

I see that now. I got sucked in a little even though I have much to do. Incredible footage already in the first few minutes.

paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Jan 15, 2019 - 04:20pm PT

ecdh

climber

the east

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2019 - 04:44pm PT

ionlyski, be interested to hear your opinions. im not a ww2 type but do get into weird interim phases of conflicts and the politics of population movements, so any reference that gives perspective appreciated.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 15, 2019 - 04:54pm PT

I don’t watch vids. Does yours address the theory that Heisenberg subtly sabotaged their
nuke program? It’s not a tin foil hat theory - some compelling arguments. Thing is that
even without his sabotage Germany had nowhere near enough money and resources invested
in it. If Heisenberg had been on board and they had gone all in earlier then things coulda
been way different.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 15, 2019 - 04:57pm PT

Saw it.

Yeah, Stalin knew we had the bomb right after the New Mexico test.

We used it on the Japanese in part to back him off. (The Russians had a forty year old score to settle.)

Funny how great allies like Stalin and Mao quickly became the new enemy.

ecdh

climber

the east

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2019 - 05:11pm PT

Toker eruditely nailed it. obviously theres way more to the bomb story, and its not the main theme of the doco at all, but yeah; truman flipped off stalin with it.
bombing japan too would have worked for stalin.

tense times. the period the doco concerns itself with is only a few months, the immediate period after germanys defeat and before japans surrender when europe was caught up in both massive celebration and immense human movement. not everyone was dancing in the streets, bad sh#t was still going on, the big players were like vultures to a carcass.
some of the images are really full on.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 15, 2019 - 05:38pm PT

Yeah, crazy times.

Huge problems with repatriation, and in some places revenge was institutionalized.

Some of my mom's friends told me stories.

sween345

climber

back east

Jan 15, 2019 - 06:55pm PT

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Jan 15, 2019 - 06:57pm PT

I have heard personally so many stories....from a military couple living in the hills of Hawaii when the bombing started on December 7th to women that lived thru the horror and tumult of the Eastern European fighting during the breakup of Yugoslavia.

Through it all the common thread is people. Most absolutely don't want the hate, the fight, the killing. Regular people want to live, take care of their families, work and carry on.

I'm at a loss for words at those few that have destroyed the lives of so many.

Hubbard

climber

San Diego

Jan 15, 2019 - 09:06pm PT

In defense of American culture: Imagine if the United States was a true evil empire as some today would have you believe. We had the bomb in 1945. Russia did not achieve this milestone until 1950. That is five years of total American power. If we were evil at heart we would have gone on a five year nuclear reign of terror and destroyed the industrial structure of all dissenting nations by blowing up one entire city at a time. We would be ruling the world to this day with our massive industrial structure still intact. Instead, we rebuilt our mortal enemies of Japan and Germany and then allowed the Russians to build their own bomb, followed by the Chinese, and here we are today in a tense standoff. Take note that the Korean war was launched by North Korea, a Russian protectorate, in 1950...as soon as the Russians achieved Nuclear status.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Polebridge, Montana

Jan 15, 2019 - 10:05pm PT

Hubbard,

Read up on Colonel Curtis LeMay. Real nice guy. Wanted to do exactly as you hypothesis; continue warfare until Russia was obliterated after he firebombed so many cities in Japan we had a real hard time finding any cities left, to test the new bombs out on.

Arne

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Jan 16, 2019 - 03:03am PT

had we not won the war lemay would have been hung for war crimes. We obviously meant well in WW11 and in the aftermath. We could simply have used the threat of nuclear power to further advance our global position. instead we promoted NATO and tried to instigate world stability. then of course we completely dropped the ball with nam and Cuba.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Polebridge, Montana

Jan 16, 2019 - 06:04am PT

EDCH-Compared to many here I am merely a hack at best when it comes to WWII history. Years ago, read everything I could get my hands on, mostly concerning the Third Reich and many of their movers and shakers, including the books written by various military figures, usually opposed to Hitler and his policies. Then I got into Stalin but such a weird civilization for so many years hard to relate to all those dry but cold Politburo tragic agenda, complete with all the vodka.

Nowadays I find local history to be the most compelling and relevant.

Watched the whole video and it was good; I'm impressed, not going in much at all normally for the Discovery and History channels, in fact never had a television in my life. Thanks for posting.

Arne

John M

climber

Jan 16, 2019 - 08:01am PT

Man.. I had such a visceral response to that video and gained a different perspective on the danger of Stalin right after the war. I can see another reason that Truman felt the need to drop the bomb.

As for the video. I have only watched the first part, but boy does it ever drive home the destructiveness and tragedy of war. I knew that this war was terrible, but I had not really considered the aftermath. To think that thousands of people who were held in concentration camps died after the war because of things like the food being too rich is such a tragedy. And then thinking about the children who lost parents and lived in the streets. Its heart wrenching.

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't heard about it. I believe every school age child should see this video to help drive home the massive destruction and terrible pain that war can bring. We need to remember the past in order to help us not repeat it. Impactful videos like this can be part of helping people remember.

Mercy..

MikeL

Social climber

Southern Arizona

Jan 16, 2019 - 08:36am PT

There are rich commentaries by viewers posted below the YouTube player.

HermitMaster

Social climber

my abode

Jan 16, 2019 - 08:37am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 16, 2019 - 08:40am PT

I hadn't heard about it.

So what is this ‘it’? As I said, I don’t do vids unless they’re of cats or dogs. And I quit watching
the History Channel a long time ago - really watered down stuff. If this vid is 45 minutes then
somebody should be able to summarize his thesis in three sentences, max. War is hell?
There’s a novel one! And as far as The Man Of Steel knowing about the Manhatten Proj,
he knew long before the White Sands test blast.

John M

climber

Jan 16, 2019 - 09:43am PT

The first part is mostly a visual Reilly. A reminder. Its colorized film of the aftermath along some explanation of the things people went through and the times. I haven't watched the second part.

You see people celebrating the end of the war. People just out of concentration camps. There is film of the war trials. the signing of the armistice. Video of Truman and Stalin. things like that. All things you have probably seen short black and white clips of but put together is more impactful for those who need to be reminded of what war can bring.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jan 16, 2019 - 09:49am PT

Anybody listen the to the 'Hardcore History' podcasts by Dan Carlin?

I just started about a month ago....very dense listening and thinking. He's really into war, though- really gets into the strategies involved.

My most recent listen is 'Blueprint for Armageddon', about WWI & WWII.

Thoughts?

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 16, 2019 - 10:11am PT

Thank you, John, glad I didn’t waste my time.

Anybody really interested in WWII should read Thunder On The Dnepr by Bryan Fugate
and Lev Dvoretsky. Its thesis is that Stalin played Hitler and the Abwehr for the fools they
were by sacrificing his forward shell armies and sucking the Panzers into the killing fields,
as it were. This book is so important it merited an internal review at the CIA! The review was
written in 1984 but only released for public consumption in 2008.

Here is that review. Yer welcome.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP86M00886R001100080007-8.pdf

Goodreads review:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1672843.Thunder_on_Dnepr

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jan 16, 2019 - 10:23am PT

From Reilly's link:

A strategy still very much in use over their political opponents...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 16, 2019 - 10:33am PT

He didn't know it worked until after the White Sands test.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Polebridge, Montana

Jan 16, 2019 - 11:00am PT

This will draw anger from some but I truly believe every country has their own side to tell especially about war times. Yes including Germany Japan and Russia. Even this movie has an agenda too. We all do.

Arne

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 16, 2019 - 11:06am PT

Well, TV, WE didn’t know it worked either! Uncle Joe certainly knew we were doing it.

Bruce Morris

Trad climber

Soulsbyville, California

Jan 16, 2019 - 12:40pm PT

Uncle Joe knew we were doing it because German submarines were positioned next to the Transatlantic cable listening in on messages from the Russian embassy in Washington DC to the Russian embassy in London. Those messages contained information on the state of the Los Alamos Project provided to his Soviet handlers by Klaus Fuchs, the Russian spy inside Los Alamos. Then, not only did the Russians know about how far we were along with the bomb but the Germans did as well. Of course, based on their last intercepts in March 1945, the Germans told the Japanese that we didn't have enough fissile material yet to construct a bomb. Thus, they were lulled into a false sense of security before Hiroshima. But where did the additional fissile material come from? Probably Germany since they had plenty of Uranium but not the methodology necessary to turn it into weapons grade uranium. Nobody knows exactly where we got the extra uranium. This brings up the whole question of whether the Germans had a second bomb project that was under SS control somewhere in the occupied territories in the East? Still many unanswered question in that area.

ecdh

climber

the east

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2019 - 01:45pm PT

ionlyski, yes agree - all news is propaganda and twains uninformed/misinformed thing is the base line.
after a career in and around warzones i find the 'shoulder' of war interesting, the bits left out, no less as many of todays conflicts are uninterrupted continuations of the immediate defeat of germany and to a lesser degree, japans surrender.

what After Hitler doesnt include is interesting too, it cant cover everything, and only hints at the middle east, balkans and asia minor.

what really interests me is that so much was actually recorded at all the. the sequences showing freed jewish prisoners identifying nazis trying to escape in disguise - and what happened next - is amazing.
as pointed out above, the footage of the orphans and lost children is heart breaking.

wars dont actually end, they just get back burnered.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 16, 2019 - 03:16pm PT

For all their horror, wars have prompted the greatest advances in technology,....

WBraun

climber

Jan 16, 2019 - 04:01pm PT

wars have prompted the greatest advances in technology

Yeah, you st00pid people love to eat nuts and bolts .....

Hubbard

climber

San Diego

Jan 16, 2019 - 04:36pm PT

Yes Arne, I understand about Curtis LeMey. Vastly more people were killed by his fire-bombing campaign than by the two nuclear bombs.
Macarthur was promoting a nuclear strike on China in 1951 and this led to his being fired by Truman. Truman was an artillery officer way back in World War One and had his own viewpoint on how to proceed.
It is notable that World War One was by and large fought only by soldiers on the front lines in the trenches. Attacks on civilian targets were not the norm. Civilians suffered indirectly by the influenza outbreak of 1917.
By contrast World War Two devolved into a war of destruction of the opponents industrial base along with the standard battles between armies in the field and these field armies were highly mobile using trucks and tanks and ships and planes. Civilians in this war were in the line of direct fire in their home cities.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 16, 2019 - 04:48pm PT

Far more people died of the flu during WWI than from the actual warfare of WWI AND WWII COMBINED!

The next pandemic could be the end of mankind because in 1918 there were not 13 million people
flying around the world EVERY DAY!

Hubbard

climber

San Diego

Jan 16, 2019 - 05:36pm PT

i agree Rielly. The chance of a gnarly world wide flu strain that is un- treatable and leads to death seems a real possibility. I am always amazed that it hasn't happened. We must be doing something right.

WBraun

climber

Jan 16, 2019 - 05:42pm PT

We must be doing something right.

You people have never started yet .....

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 16, 2019 - 05:46pm PT

Ha! Hubbard, epidemiologists would disagree with you to the extent that what they’re doing is
best practice which only works if the flu cooperates by not mutating a Terminator strain. Then
there are the roughly 35 other viruses they’ve identified as most likely to mutate a Terminator.

It ain’t a matter of if. I just hope the asteroid gets us first.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jan 16, 2019 - 07:08pm PT

That was big amazing documentary - great recommendation.

Fritz

Social climber

Choss Creek, ID

Jan 16, 2019 - 07:49pm PT

Hubbard! I enjoy your posts, but I wish to add a little detail to this statement of yours:

World War One was by and large fought only by soldiers on the front lines in the trenches. Attacks on civilian targets were not the norm.

Battleground France suffered a higher % of war deaths than her allies. France 4.3% & Great Britian had about 2% war dead.

Serbia suffered horribly with between 16.7% & 27.8% war dead.
Romania had 8%
And the Ottoman Empire, which died during the war, to be reborn as Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc, suffered 14% war dead.

Hubbard

climber

San Diego

Jan 16, 2019 - 07:55pm PT

It is going to be a vicious bird flu and it is going to start in ducks and infect all humans. When you get this flu, as you are breathing your last breath you will realize then and only then that you were a fool to ever believe in anything and instead should have been a nihilist and just told everyone else how dumb they were. It all would have been so much easier than reading those books and actually trying to think. Yes, this is how it will end, but in the meantime...

Hubbard

climber

San Diego

Jan 17, 2019 - 10:26am PT

Thank you Fritz. I was thinking about the Germans, French, British, Russians, Austrians and Italians. The war down in Turkey was almost a different war. The Turks used the cover of the main war between the Western powers to unleash their simmering hatred of the Armenians, knowing that the rest of the world was too busy to notice or do anything to stop them. Turkey targeted civilians in a big way in an ethnic cleansing campaign that qualifies by all measures as a genocide. Hitler noticed and said years later to justify his own genocide, "After all, who remembers the Armenians."

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Jan 18, 2019 - 03:40am PT

there is no (other side of the story) when it comes to the 3rd reich that I am willing to consider. the systematic murdering of 6 million jews based completely on their last name is completely unforgiveable. for the doubters out there The germans were meticulous record keepers. Its all documented. My father along with thousands of other GI's helped liberate those camps. they saw the horror first hand. they took pictures. it really did happen. The german people allowed it to happen and went along on the ride for personal gain. Oh the Goldschmitchs had to move away but the govt says we can have their house now.... The Swiss got rich over the whole thing. My dad told me that the german civilians pretended to not know anything about it even though you could smell the deathcomming from the camp just outside of town.. For those who don't like to read the docu drama Winds Of War is actually very good and quite accurate account.

ecdh

climber

the east

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2019 - 11:11am PT

one of the apparent testimonies at nuremburg detailed in After Hitler is how one day people living near a camp noticed an unusual amount of noise. apparently the gas supply had run out so they just pushed people live into the furnaces, and that had been a childrens extermination day.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Jan 27, 2019 - 08:10am PT

seeing that the reintroduction of the capital letter "h" I take it that it is only a typo in the thread title.

My estrangement from my family has me at a loss (for now) as to the re-writing of the history of the removal of jews from the hillside and lake towns of Austria & all along the Baltic-Adriatic Corridor...
In short, when after the war survivors tried to return they were strongly rebuffed. Period!
The pervasive intent was to hold the properties, this is how the likes of the Shawrtzenagers came to be residents . . & sending anyone with claims to land & homes, generational family holdings, to jail for trespassing.
I read here the talk of the fact that many starved to death after the war "because their stomachs could not digest the rich food" you don't call that what it was...While there was a scarcity of fresh food, after the war, it was a regular thing to withhold it from the most in need. (god-forbid a surviving/returning jewish girl became pregnant during this era)
Then too, the forcing of baked goods & sweets; high sugar content canned foods, often offered as a way the guilty populace tried to moderate/assuage that guilt, "Here, eat this, We baked this for you" Maybe or not? knowing it would lead to diabetes and all the accompanying ills....

I'LL put this here, too.

Great Escape: The Untold Story (WW2 POW Documentary) | Timeline

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Edit to add;
I think you are on to something , capseeboy

. . . .
There's a strange analogy ((I think DANGEROUS/SAD))
I may be imagining
(* no, your are being objectively observant; it is really happening)
between the German citizens and Americans today. Are we just sitting back watching IT happen..... or am I just*paranoid?

I can't handle the truth. Insults greatly appreciated. Carry on.

I thought his post was full weight & worthy? at least, Then the next 2 posts , what they add to the observations went right over my head...

capseeboy

Social climber

portland, oregon

Jan 27, 2019 - 09:36am PT

I get to consider new stuff to me when I take a look at a thread I haven't looked at before.

I never considered the Bomb being used to back Stalin off.

I had read the flue statistic thing before, blows my mind on review.

The vicious duck flue fly over had me rolling. No malice intended of course.

There's a strange analogy I may be imagining between the German citizens of WWII and Americans today. Are we just sitting back watching IT happen or am I just paranoid?

I can't handle the truth. Insults greatly appreciated. Carry on.

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Jan 27, 2019 - 09:46am PT

This crop of American nationalists don't have the centuries-old Jewish scapegoat, capseeboy, that the Germans had.

They don't have nearly the "burdens" that the brown-shirt reactionaries thought that they had.

If I wanted to insult anyone, I'd do it on the Friday Night Drinking While Posting thread.😃

I heard yesterday about a woman who had a Hitler mustache on her puss. I laffed and laffed.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 27, 2019 - 09:48am PT

capsee, you do know you live in ground zero of North America’s most widespread and dangerous measles epidemic? And it is due to all yer toque clad Voodoo noshing holier-than-thou anti-vaccine vegan cretins. ERs in Portland now have signs up telling the cretins to leave immediately before they infect more innocents. It is one of the most infectious diseases and it can be deadly for adults or otherwise compromised people.

capseeboy

Social climber

portland, oregon

Jan 27, 2019 - 11:19am PT

This crop of American nationalists don't have the centuries-old Jewish scapegoat, capseeboy, that the Germans had.

Would it be inaccurate to say that there are American nationalists on both sides of the fence?

It seems like divisive cannibalism has replaced the need for a singular scapegoat.

Anymore it seems like voting is for the lessor of two evils, but Clinton really ruined a lot of peoples lives with the commodities futures modernization act.

I just don't see the lesser of two evils anymore. The choices seem fake and voting seems to be a sham.

Sorry if I'm ruining the thread. I won't post on it if you don't want.

Thanks.

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Jan 27, 2019 - 11:23am PT

Sorry if I'm ruining the thread. I won't post on it if you don't want.

*belly laugh*

capseeboy

Social climber

portland, oregon

Jan 27, 2019 - 12:41pm PT

capsee, you do know you live in ground zero of North America’s most widespread and dangerous measles epidemic?

I did not know that. I lived there for most of the last thirty years and in 1961. Sorry for the now fake address but I am now a no where man with no clue.

The developers and investment folks took over in the last few years after the last bubble burst. Many reasons for moving on but the skyrocketing prices and fixed income pushed me out for the better. Like a lot of places, it was good while it lasted.

During the black plague people cloistered themselves. I'm kind of a loner so I am less exposed to potential bugs. Health is a good reason to stay away from people. LOL.