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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 13, 2019 - 12:01pm PT
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Vitamin D is integral for much of our health, but per the below Outside Online article, the pills are ineffective & we need sunlight to generate Vit D.
However, the author of this interesting & timely Outside Online article, goes overboard in mainly spewing that all sunscreen use is bad.
Per this quote, late in the article, the Australians have advocated more resonable sun exposure during low-UV conditions.
Australia’s official advice? When the UV index is below 3 (which is true for most of the continental U.S. in the winter), “Sun protection is not recommended unless near snow or other reflective surfaces. To support vitamin D production, spend some time outdoors in the middle of the day with some skin uncovered.” Even in high summer, Australia recommends a few minutes of sun a day.
Fritz take: A very interesting batch of information. I agree with the conclusion that we need more sunlight for Vitamin D production, but I wish the author had quoted Australia's response to that data earlier in the article. It calls for less or no sunscreen use on low UV days, rather than the author implying that sunscreen is the enemy of long life. What an ass he is, especially for adding the margarine story.
Here's some of the article & links to the rest of it.
Is Sunscreen the The New Margarine?
Outside on-line Jan. 10 2019.
Rowan Jacobson.
Current guidelines for sun exposure are unhealthy and unscientific, controversial new research suggests—and quite possibly even racist. How did we get it so wrong?
If there was one supplement that seemed sure to survive the rigorous tests, it was vitamin D. People with low levels of vitamin D in their blood have significantly higher rates of virtually every disease and disorder you can think of: cancer, diabetes, obesity, osteoporosis, heart attack, stroke, depression, cognitive impairment, autoimmune conditions, and more. The vitamin is required for calcium absorption and is thus essential for bone health, but as evidence mounted that lower levels of vitamin D were associated with so many diseases, health experts began suspecting that it was involved in many other biological processes as well.
And they believed that most of us weren’t getting enough of it. This made sense. Vitamin D is a hormone manufactured by the skin with the help of sunlight. It’s difficult to obtain in sufficient quantities through diet. When our ancestors lived outdoors in tropical regions and ran around half naked, this wasn’t a problem. We produced all the vitamin D we needed from the sun.
Yet vitamin D supplementation has failed spectacularly in clinical trials. Five years ago, researchers were already warning that it showed zero benefit, and the evidence has only grown stronger. In November, one of the largest and most rigorous trials of the vitamin ever conducted—in which 25,871 participants received high doses for five years—found no impact on cancer, heart disease, or stroke.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=WYM-Saturday-01122019&utm_content=WYM-Saturday-01122019+CID_de9e711f1712304f319d2f5b2be84cc0&utm_source=campaignmonitor+outsidemagazine
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 13, 2019 - 12:07pm PT
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Don't you have butter things to do, Fritz?😎
Mouse!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 13, 2019 - 12:16pm PT
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Drink yer milk, big boy. And you won’t catch La Femme outside w/o her sunscreen on.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2019 - 12:19pm PT
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Mouse! Per your question:
Don't you have butter things to do, Fritz?😎
Mouse!
Well, no. It's very interesting to me. I am a "poster-geeze" for Basal cell skin cancers, with about 30 removed during the last 25 years. I had one Squamous cell skin cancer too, a few years back.
I'm trying to spread constructive knowledge for a change.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 13, 2019 - 12:21pm PT
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Where are the screenshots of your D3 labs reports?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2019 - 12:21pm PT
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Reilly! Per your comeback:
Drink yer milk, big boy
Read the article big boy, then argue.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 13, 2019 - 12:29pm PT
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My yardstick is Norwegians - they eat tons of milk products and they’re a lot healthier than
Australians. What Aussie has been World Ski Champeen? Dunno about their skin cancer rate.
After a month there last summer La Femme suspects it is high based on how brown they were
and how few norsk wimmen wear hats.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2019 - 12:48pm PT
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Monolith! Thanks for posting that link. Interesting reading (for me).
Per this mention in the 2017 article, I believe the Outside author is quoting the results of that study, which showed little benefit from Vit. D supplements.
To clear up some of the uncertainty, the NIH has funded one of the largest randomized trials on vitamin D, with the results expected to be ready next year. Maybe then we'll have a better sense of what, if any, benefit this vitamin holds.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jan 13, 2019 - 12:55pm PT
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The Fins and Norwegians have had historically high rates of heart disease, Reilly.
Your anecdotal observations are meaningless, as is often the case.
They are only now coming down to France, Spain like levels.
Google 'cardiovascular disease in Norway'
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 13, 2019 - 01:02pm PT
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Mono, I stand corrected! I guess the Norskies just look healthier than Aussies. 🤡
National lifespans: Aussies - #4 / Norskies #15!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 13, 2019 - 01:11pm PT
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. What Aussie has been World Ski Champeen?
What Norski has ever been World Champeen Dwarf Tosser?
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 13, 2019 - 02:40pm PT
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My wife tried to buy a sunhat in Copenhagen last summer and no store had one to sell to her. The sales assistants (female all) kept saying, it is summertime, why would you want a hat?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Jan 13, 2019 - 02:48pm PT
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Well, no. It's very interesting to me. I am a "poster-geeze" for Basal cell skin cancers, with about 30 removed during the last 25 years. I had one Squamous cell skin cancer too, a few years back.
Sorry to hear this. Probably due to following the bad advice of the last 50 years. Living at a mean latitude of 44° couldn't have helped. That's a lot of indoor living. Right now in Jan. there isn't enough solar yield at 44 to keep a very small monkey happy and healthy. Remember sun exposure is about a whole lot more than just Vit. D . Sunlight entering the eye is also partly responsible for both dopamine and melatonin production, in addition to proper circadian function.
Slathering gunk on your skin probably leads to melanopsin dysfunction. In 2017 melanopsin was discovered in human skin. In a way it could be said that your skin sees light. Do you have skin in the game?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28525301
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanopsin
I'll have to recheck my figures but if the sun doesn't get to an altitude of at least 50° in the heavens then UVB frequencies can't get through the atmosphere and no Vit. D can be produced from striking your skin. This means that the Vit. D window doesn't open up for you until April/May or thereabouts? Sheesh. I live at 34° and the window opens in early March and closes in early October. Of course other factors like altitude influences these outcomes. If your altitude is higher then the amount of UVB is correspondingly higher at whatever time of year.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2019 - 03:25pm PT
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Ward: Thanks for your sympathy. My dermos & my research agree my many Basal Cell cancers come from having a redhead gene, blue eyes, & fair skin, growing up at 6,000' at latitude 44, & a really bad sunburn on my head incured while spring skiing with no sunscreen at age 19. My face swelled wonderfully, fluid poured out of skin cracks, & a week later I had a new layer of skin.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Jan 13, 2019 - 04:04pm PT
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I would tend to agree with you and outside Fritz.
Vitamin d has many benefits.
Sunscreen is crucial in summer with lengthy exposure though.
Aren’t you do for your yearly Hawaii trip soon??
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jan 13, 2019 - 04:35pm PT
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Based on personal experience with Vitamin D pills, I would say they do work. I had more energy and a better mood only 3 days after taking large doses. Whenever I've stopped, I've had problems again. Some people are just better at absorbing D than others and one's ability to do so seems to change with age. Luckily, my GP recognized this could be the problem and tested my levels which were shockingly low.
Since I too have had skin cancers removed, I'm careful though not obsessed with avoiding the sun.
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DanaB
climber
CO
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Jan 13, 2019 - 04:47pm PT
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Dozens of articles on vitamin D in PubMed by Dr. Michael Holick - endocrinologist at Boston University. He has also written several books on the topic.
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D'Wolf
climber
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Jan 13, 2019 - 08:23pm PT
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Absolute Crap! That study. 2000 iu per day is useless. Typical government study.
Personal story: I work outdoors and always have. Can't stand sunscreen when working; sweat, dust, dirt, gets in my eyes - hate it. I play outdoors climbing, mountaineering, desert racing atv's, volleyball at the beach with friends. Will wear sunscreen at high altitudes when climbing. That's it. I should be getting all the Vit D3 I need according to the "experts".
Have gotten regular blood work done every 6 months for the last 20 years (I'm 57 now) as preventive care (I pay for it myself out-of-pocket). Several years ago after reading that most adults over 50 had low Vit D3 levels I had mine checked. Yep, 18 was the number! 18 is low by any standard out there. To shorten the story, my numbers are now 55-60 and I take 7000 IU per DAY, plus I still work and play outdoors.
I've had several friends and co-workers check their levels and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM came in low 15-30.
Use yourself as a test subject. Get your blood work done, take a supplement, then have it checked again. That's the only way you'll ever know if ANY supplement actually gets into your system.
Cheers!
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jan 13, 2019 - 08:48pm PT
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The study is not about whether D supplements can raise your blood levels. They do.
It's about whether they have an impact on mortality and other factors. The study says they don't.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 13, 2019 - 08:58pm PT
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Moose...Got any selfy thong pics you can share...?
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John M
climber
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Jan 13, 2019 - 09:07pm PT
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some scientists are starting to believe that glyphosate ( round up ) is the cause of the rise in many diseases such as celiac disease. They are also starting to link it to deficiencies in things like Vitamin D.
This study doesn't explain the vitamin D deficiency expect to say that the body uses vitamin D to get rid of glyphosate. ( my understanding ) which would be a reason for the deficiency. I have read other studies which seem to say that glyphosate blocks the production of vitamin D.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/
an interview of a Doctor who works at MIT who is studying this issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmAsTrsUjBc
I understand that these are side notes to what Fritz is pointing out in the article, which is that for some yet unknown reason sunlight is more effective at reducing certain diseases than supplementation.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 14, 2019 - 01:59pm PT
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OK
My D3 runs about 50. I haven't had it checked lately. My skin cancer doctor believes that 60 is a better level.
Also, get your bio-available testosterone and SHBG checked while you are getting you D3 done.
Here's another one for all the men out there (whether you're one of the king's or just a commoner).
Mood Swings in Men
“Mood swings in men are primarily a symptom of andropause, a hormone imbalance in men that usually occurs between the ages of 40 and 60,” explains Richard Giannotto, MD, a metabolic wellness physician in McLean, Va. This “irritable male syndrome,” as it’s often referred to, is the result of low levels of testosterone (low T) and high levels of the stress hormone cortisol, Giannotto says. “Resulting behaviors include anger, sarcasm, frustration, sadness, depression, being withdrawn, hostile, and/or anxious, and dissatisfaction,” adds Giannotto. Low energy can also be a problem with low T, as well as low desire.
Low testosterone in men can also mimic symptoms of low T and menopause in women. “I have some patients with low T who describe hot flashes, night sweats, and changing sleep patterns, which then result in sleep deprivation and more irritability,” says Damon Raskin, MD, a physician practicing internal medicine in Pacific Palisades, Calif.
No matter what the specific symptoms, Dr. Raskin says low testosterone in men is under-diagnosed. In fact, an estimated 13 million American men suffer from low testosterone, and 90 percent go untreated. “I see it all the time -- men come in and tell me they’re depressed, and they haven’t considered that their depression may be a symptom of low testosterone,” he says. “And in some cases, doctors themselves don’t consider low testosterone, and they treat the depression itself. But some studies show that up to one third of men who walk into primary care offices may have low testosterone, especially men over 40.”
... if you think you have symptoms of low T, see your doctor. “A lot of men, just by being men, don’t go to the doctor for anything,” Raskin says. “But in order to know for sure he has low testosterone, a man must be screened at the doctor’s office.” Raskin adds that the best time of the day for testosterone screening is in the morning. “You don’t have to have a fasting blood test, but a morning blood test will be a better test. In addition, be screened for possible secondary causes of low T or depression, including a pituitary tumor or other hormonal imbalances.”
It even affects firemen. But you have to join to read the article.
Firefighter Fitness: Low T and Cortisol: The Silent Killer
06/25/2013
By John Hofman Firefighters are often under a lot of stress, both physically and mentally. Stressful environments can increase inflammation in the body naturally, but it can also affect a firefighter's hormonal response. The hormone testosterone is associated with body fat and muscle mass in men and has beneficial effects with regards to the cardiovascular system. Any type of deficiency will lead to increased body fat, less muscle, and increased chance of disease. One study performed in the United Kingdom showed that men with heart disease die sooner if their testosterone levels are low. Another study found that low testosterone in men could increase the risk of developing Type ...
Also,
A study by an international group of researchers from organizations including the American Cancer Society finds that higher levels of vitamin D in the blood is associated with a lower risk for getting colorectal cancer. Previous studies have suggested a link but were inconclusive. The new study was published online June 14, 2018 in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.
https://academic.oup.com/jnci/advance-article/doi/10.1093/jnci/djy087/5035027
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Jan 14, 2019 - 02:26pm PT
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Loved the article, especially these two lines which sum up the entire sentiment:
"We are always being told to replace something natural with some artificial pill or product that is going to improve our health, and it almost always turns out to be a mistake because we didn’t know enough. Multivitamins can’t replace fruits and vegetables, and vitamin D supplements are clearly no substitute for natural sunlight."
Thanks for posting it!
PS: I work in healthcare.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jan 14, 2019 - 05:49pm PT
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Go get 'em Fritz. Even though he is right, he clearly is going about it in the wrong way.
Journalists don't get paid for the truth. They get paid for words that attract lots of attention.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Jan 14, 2019 - 06:52pm PT
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Has anyone studied their D levels in the summer?
BargainHunter---I showed my daughter an article regarding no need for vitamins and she still gives them to the girls.
There's too much money in the health industry.
The health care system isn't healthy, caring or a system--Walter Cronkite.
During the heyday of CBS News in the 1960s and 1970s, he was often cited as "the most trusted man in America" after being so named in an opinion poll. Wikipedia
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Jan 15, 2019 - 04:59am PT
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SPF clothing.
I hate lathering up with oily sh#t on my skin. I'll put it on my face and neck and that's it. The rest of me gets SPF clothing. The first time I tried it was with arm coolers. What a diff they make for cycling. I've had a bit cancerous crap removed from my face and am careful.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 15, 2019 - 12:00pm PT
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“irritable male syndrome,” as it’s often referred to, is the result of low levels of testosterone (low T)
Specifically low bio available testosterone and you don't want high SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin).
Can happen to the best of us and another 13 million more (estimate).
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Jan 15, 2019 - 05:37pm PT
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No offense intended. I thought I might have low testy because I'm not angry.
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DanaB
climber
CO
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Jan 15, 2019 - 06:38pm PT
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There's too much money in the health industry.
The health care system isn't healthy, caring or a system
What would be the optimal amount?
Well, it is dealing with people who willingly, knowingly, and deliberately drink, eat, and smoke themselves into chronic illnesses and early death.
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D'Wolf
climber
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Jan 16, 2019 - 04:40am PT
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Monolith (up thread):
The study says that vit D3 supplementation doesn't work improve health. You point out that the study wasn't about whether you blood levels can be raised by supplementation or not but whether it helped improve health.
The issue I take with the study is that they didn't use enough vit D3 to obtain a result (ie a therapeutic dose).
This is a typical government study. They did the same thing a few years back with vit D3 using 400 IU's then claimed (again) that it had no affect on health.
Take 5 mg of Tylenol for your headache and tell me how that works out for you...
2000 IU's is not enough. My GF takes 5000 IU's each day; I take 7000 IU's each day. This keeps our levels up where they should be.
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