A Technical Study On The Use of Parachutes

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Messages 1 - 28 of total 28 in this topic

Winemaker

Sport climber

Yakima, WA

Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 16, 2018 - 09:17am PT

Here is a very interesting technical study on the use of parachutes that will be of use to anyone who uses them for enjoyment or 'safety' while flying.

The study 'Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma when jumping from aircraft: randomized controlled trial' compares the outcome of jumping from a plane or helicopter with either a parachute or an empty backpack and can be found here:

https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094

One conclusion of the study was

Parachute use compared with a backpack control did not reduce death or major traumatic injury when used by participants jumping from aircraft in this first randomized evaluation of the intervention.

Edited to add a comment from the study's discussion section:

Discussion

We have performed the first randomized clinical trial evaluating the efficacy of parachutes for preventing death or major traumatic injury among individuals jumping from aircraft. Our groundbreaking study found no statistically significant difference in the primary outcome between the treatment and control arms. Our findings should give momentary pause to experts who advocate for routine use of parachutes for jumps from aircraft in recreational or military settings.

perswig

climber

Dec 16, 2018 - 09:26am PT

Bwaha!
The def of a 'Hollywood' jump.

Dale

snakefoot

climber

Nor Cal

Dec 16, 2018 - 09:26am PT

this is hilarious. Please, can I be in the control arm with just a back pack?

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Dec 16, 2018 - 09:39am PT

Wow! Thanks for posting this -- you have saved me a boatload of money! I was about to get into skydiving, and now, knowing that I don't have to waste money on expensive parachutes, I can afford lots of really expensive outdoor clothing that will impress people at the airfield.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Dec 16, 2018 - 09:50am PT

And as an added bonus reading a manly thread like this gets you a manly banner ad!

Sula

Trad climber

Pennsylvania

Dec 16, 2018 - 10:27am PT

Right. Another sentence from the Conclusions paragraph:

However, the trial was only able to enroll participants on small stationary aircraft on the ground, suggesting cautious extrapolation to high altitude jumps.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Dec 16, 2018 - 10:43am PT

^^^ Bwahahahahaha

Okay, now I'm so happy, just giggling, frothing, oh so gay HAPPY that I didn't waste my time on that article.

Sigh... but I did on this thread. There's just no winning.

Winemaker

Sport climber

Yakima, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2018 - 10:52am PT

Hey mb, the article is actually quite a hoot; I was laughing my ass off it's so well done. Kudos for the British Medical Journal for their sense of humour!

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Dec 16, 2018 - 10:58am PT

Okay, okay. The thread is a hoot, so I guess I'll have to jump right in.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Dec 16, 2018 - 11:17am PT

Agreed, very well done. Rigorous study, the results of which cannot be refuted. As the study says, additional testing in contexts of higher altitude and velocity are needed. But for the context in which the tests were performed, the results seem repeatable and conclusive.

Thank you, Winemaker. This was an eye-opener, and I should not have been so quickly dismissive before reading the actual study. I stand corrected, and I'm big enough to admit it.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Dec 16, 2018 - 11:24am PT

Wait, wasn’t that study released on 1 April?

Winemaker

Sport climber

Yakima, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2018 - 12:21pm PT

mb, you are obviously a gentleman of the highest caliber!!!

Pete_N

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, CA

Dec 16, 2018 - 12:32pm PT

Awesome! So glad to see that science is not dead yet in the US though it must be admitted that the '[World Health Organization’s Registry Network of the International Clinical Trials Registry] declined to register the trial because they thought that “the research question lacks scientific validity” and “the trial data cannot be meaningful.”' And clearly the authors are stand-up scientists: "We appreciated their thorough review (and actually agree with their decision)."

skywalker1

Trad climber

Dec 16, 2018 - 01:14pm PT

Rossouw JE, Anderson GL, Prentice RL, et al., Writing Group for the Women’s Health Initiative Investigators. Risks and benefits of estrogen plus progestin in healthy postmenopausal women: principal results From the Women’s Health Initiative randomized controlled trial. JAMA2002;288:321-33. doi:10.1001/jama.288.3.321 pmid:12117397

I like this reference.

S....

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Dec 16, 2018 - 01:21pm PT

^^^^ Did they jump outta da plane, too?

Winemaker

Sport climber

Yakima, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2018 - 01:46pm PT

My interest was piqued, so I researched a paper footnoted by the authors of the PARACHUTE study:

'Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials' (BMJ 2003;327:1459)

and found this interesting discussion

The medicalisation of free fall

It is often said that doctors are interfering monsters obsessed with disease and power, who will not be satisfied until they control every aspect of our lives (Journal of Social Science, pick a volume). It might be argued that the pressure exerted on individuals to use parachutes is yet another example of a natural, life enhancing experience being turned into a situation of fear and dependency. The widespread use of the parachute may just be another example of doctors' obsession with disease prevention and their misplaced belief in unproved technology to provide effective protection against occasional adverse events.

https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459?ijkey=ac7ca67c7939062bfcb341cd6a77e331231562f9&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Are doctors doing the same thing with climbing?

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Dec 16, 2018 - 03:49pm PT

you are obviously a gentleman of the highest caliber!!!

Thank you kindly, sir. You have helped greatly in recovering my self-image from the depths of embarrassment and despair. I'm definitely not anti-science, and studies like this should enjoy the full respect to which they are entitled!

So many passages could be cited for special attention, but I quickly realized that the whole thing would need to be cited for special attention, which is, in effect, what you accomplish in the OP.

Thank you!

Tom

Big Wall climber

San Luis Obispo CA

Dec 16, 2018 - 06:27pm PT

Your studies do not address the psychic trauma suffered by people scourging themselves on the face of El Capitan, who hear the sound of tremendous rockfall, only to learn later that the traumatic sound is not rockfall, but that of a "harmlessly playful and fun-loving" parachutist.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Dec 16, 2018 - 06:51pm PT

So true, Tom. I lost one or two years off my life on RoF from that very thing. And then the guy popped his chute right next to us, about 80 feet away. Sounded like a cannon going off.

But then he lost control and started spiraling down, crashing into the forest. Eventually he staggered out onto the trail, took a few steps, then collapsed. When he didn't move for like five minutes, we finally called it in.

An hour later, Mr. "fun loving" was being stretchered out.

Tom

Big Wall climber

San Luis Obispo CA

Dec 16, 2018 - 06:59pm PT

It is an abomination before God when people scourging themselves on El Capitan are traumatized by BASE jumpers.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Dec 16, 2018 - 07:14pm PT

So, edifying and enjoyable though it has been to see the results of serious research into the effectiveness of parachutes in preventing serious injury or death in skydiving, it seems time to get serious for real. This is a climbing website, not a skydiving website, and all but a very few of us here have never, and will never, jump out of an airplane.

Our concern is with becoming detached from rock, rather than from airplanes, and none of us (well, okay, Dean Potter tried it) carries a parachute.

Instead, we have always entrusted our lives to nylon ropes and a variety of metal safety hardware. But, like parachutes for skydivers, this "safety" equipment is both heavy and expensive. And, as has been recently demonstrated, the "safety" aspect may be entirely false -- a commercial sales effort aimed at enriching the companies who make this equipment, but a sales effort with no basis in fact or reality.

With the recent demonstration that even a Californian can safely climb what has long been falsely billed as a difficult and dangerous rockface with no ropes or safety equipment, it seems clear that the team that conducted the parachute-vs-empty-pack study to clearly show that parachute manufacturers are right up there with tobacco companies when it comes to the safety of American citizens should now conduct a similar study on the effectiveness of ropes and metal safety equipment in rock climbing.

Expensive ropes and metal gadgets? F*#k that. If the study shows what i think it will show, I'm just climbing with an empty pack from now on.

Winemaker

Sport climber

Yakima, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2018 - 09:03pm PT

That's the spirit ghost (so to speak)! It's all becoming clear or, perhaps I should say, 'clearer'. Personally, I've taken the position that Klimmer and his 'Ark' on the moon may be right. They're all bastards or something; it's just not clear. Anyway, all that aside, there is a real question about gravity and it's ultimate affect on our personalities and, to be honest, velocity. Current science seems to suggest v=1/2at² but can we trust that anymore? Inquiring minds want to know!

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Dec 16, 2018 - 09:30pm PT

Current science seems to suggest v=1/2at² but can we trust that anymore? Inquiring minds want to know!

Obviously we need a rigorous and well controlled scientific study into this, but I have done a preliminary investigation, and the result is strikingly similar to the parachute/no-parachute study you linked in your original post.

Surrounded as I now am by 5,000 foot walls in my new home in Powell River BC, I felt this would be the perfect place to begin the research, so I loaded up rope, metal safety equipment, and an empty pack and headed to the local climbing gym -- which, perhaps in a sign of cosmic blessing for this endeavor -- opened just yesterday.

Following the procedure pioneered by the parachute scientists, I plummeted several feet from the plastic holds onto the padded floor, both with and without the expensive safety equipment.

Just as the parachute scientists discovered about skydiving, I found that all evidence points to a massive conspiracy by big business to sell us -- based on a now-exposed but totally false fear campaign -- vast quantities of expensive "safety equipment."

Yes, further research is likely required, but this initial investigation appeared to clearly show that falling onto a climbing-gym floor mat from heights of more than one meter while tied to a rope and carrying vast quantities of expensive (and heavy) metal safety equipment saved no more lives than similar falls with no equipment beyond an empty pack.

I do not have the financial resources to carry on the study (or pay for the lawyers to defend me from the climbing equipment companies), so I hope that others will take the ball from me and rush it toward the goal of exposing the massive exploitation of helpless dirtbags.

Perhaps, with your vast political/financial experience in the campaign to prevent Ms Clinton from running for president, you could lead the charge?

Winemaker

Sport climber

Yakima, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2018 - 09:34pm PT

Thanks Ghost for your thoughtful and erudite comment. I have only one question: Did you pull the ripcord? Supply data man! I assume that you, as all of us normally do, wear a parachute whilst gym climbing. Perhaps we can expand the scope of the PARACHUTE study!!! I also had another thought re the 'heavy' equipment your were carrying: have you thought about hydrogen? I'll say no more.

Robert Yoho

Social climber

Los Angeles,ca

Dec 17, 2018 - 05:22am PT

This is a serious issue and that parody had a purpose. Randomized controlled trials have been pushed into obscene ends. Now, with data adulteration, they are used to pervert medical care, witness SSRI and atypical antipsychotic usage (neither have studies demonstrating net benefit).

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Dec 17, 2018 - 09:08am PT

^^^ Don't forget sociology, economics, and all politically-laden "stats." Mental health care. Hmm... the litany goes on.

Twain: "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Doesn't matter how credible the study-conducting entity is; if they have a bias, the study produces biased stats. I have sat on the Ethics in Research committees of two universities, and I've reviewed hundreds of proposed studies across the range of disciplines. Inattentional blindness is a pervasive problem in all studies (and the "stats" that define the "results"). So-called "repeatability" does not eliminate that problem.