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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 11, 2018 - 05:31pm PT
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Read it. A bit harsh and overwrought. Identity seems more and more superfluous in a state with 30 million and a country with 300 million. Everyone is more than their cultural identity. Humans have always oppressed one another and certainly not just white men. Time to let it all go and move forward. It's just too late to give it all back. At this point fair is not necessarily fair.
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rincon
climber
Coarsegold
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Dec 11, 2018 - 05:36pm PT
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I made it to Peter Pan Syndrome.
Have not seen Free Solo myself, but I think she's probably being too critical.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Dec 11, 2018 - 05:44pm PT
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Her writing focuses on detaching from the commitment to the construct of Whiteness.
And with that I'll be shuffling off now to better uses of my time.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 11, 2018 - 05:44pm PT
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It's a pretty lengthy screed; could not get very far.
Well, I read it from beginning to end. All 6,300 words.
It's underlying message is that, throughout history, everyone other than white males, has been run over by the battle-tank of the often-violent white male patriarchy. And, therefor, modern climbers are all misogynistic racist as#@&%es whose climbing is nothing more that a perpetuation of the horrific culture in which they were raised.
In which there is some truth. Well except maybe for the climbing part.
But it also reminded me of the US Democratic Party's response to Donald Trump's white male supremacist demands to build a wall to keep out the Mexican rapists.
"Donald Trump is an inhuman racist who gets a boner seeing brown babies ripped from their mother's arms."
"Well, yes, that's probably true. So how would you deal with the problem of illegal immigration?"
"You have to vote for us, so that we can get rid of that racist Trump."
"Okay, yes, Trump is a blot on the political landscape, and I agree, we'd be better off without him. But what do you think we should do to deal with the problem of illegal immigration?"
"That's easy, vote out Trump and his racist cronies."
"But, but... Once you're in charge, how would _you_ deal with the problem of illegal immigration?"
"Trump is a racist as#@&%e!"
In other words, while the problem Erin Monahan points to may be at least partly real, she offers nothing at all toward its solution. Perhaps, if she wrote a follow-up piece that wasn't 6,000 words of "all white men are as#@&%es", there would be something to talk about.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Dec 11, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
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Wow, talk about having issues.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 11, 2018 - 05:56pm PT
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So I read it…
Alex has done more good with his foundation than she ever will. And she disses him for "funneling" money into the Tides Foundation. No mention that he contributes 1/3 of his income…
Tides Foundation is an umbrella organization which takes in smaller organizations which can then operate under Tide’s 501.c3 non-profit status. Typically, such organizations take 10% of the sponsored groups donations, in exchange providing accounting and legal services and other needs.
I served as a board member for a small organization which operated under the non-profit umbrella of a similar foundation, the Earth Island Institute (founded by David Brower.) The 10% take was well worth it to us, as they handled all of our accounting and legal needs (for less $ and much less hassle than were we to handle them ourselves.) Foundations like these have to hire experienced professionals, the groups operating under their umbrella depend on these foundations for their survival. It is imperative that they are competent. These people do not come for free. Her claim about inequality in this regard is simply B.S. A quick look at Honnold Foundation’s website shows that the board members are top notch individuals. I’d bet my shorts that they looked hard at various non-profit sponsors and chose well.
Also, she needs to get a sense of humor and some basic perspective. For example, taking the "human slave" remark seriously, and holding it up as an example of abuse in a relationship is, IMO, a real stretch. The context of Alex being injured matters. My marriage is as non-abusive as such a relationship can be, but my God, I can only imagine what her take-away would be if she hung out and listened to our conversations for an evening (having met Barbara the OP probably gets what I mean😊.)
Her thoughts on Honnold needing armor, and comparing that to the needs of Olympic athletes is just plain stupid. As Tommy says in the film, what Honnold planned to do was the equivalent of winning the Gold Medal, under penalty of death for failure. Last time I looked, Olympians weren’t thrown off a cliff for failure.
And I'm sorry, but the bit about it being nice to have a girlfriend in the van IS funny. But then again I'm just another privileged toxic white male, so what value can my opinion possibly have?
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 06:17pm PT
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If you study history more closely, you find that bad behavior is spread around all the races and groups. The surrounding tribes of Indians referred to the ones living in Yosemite as "killers." Will Durant called the Islamic invasion of India "the bloodiest genocide in modern history". It lasted about 400 years, with an estimated 80 million victims. The recent genocide in Rwanda was black-on-black; The Hutus slaughtering nearly a million Tutsis with guns, knives and machetes. If you take this stuff and compare it to the excesses of the British Empire, the Brits seem downright tame by comparison. As an utterly horrible blond haired, exploiting white man with privilege, all I can say is that we could be worse.
The real offending group is not white males, but males of our species in general,between the ages of 18-40. After 40, most of us begin to get paunchy and have bad knees.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Dec 11, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
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Sounds like she may have trouble getting a date and is angry about it. (Did I say that?)
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Dec 11, 2018 - 06:34pm PT
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Barely-veiled feminism ( My Mom is one, so I recognize the pattern), followed by cultural appropriation narrowed to one guy - who is doing great things with the Honnold Foundation, BTW.
It is one of the narrowest perspectives I have read in a while - hard to get through.
But, you go Girl. I am just a testosterone-ridden white male indiginous-culture-crusher - what do I know?
LOL - kinda...
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Dec 11, 2018 - 06:42pm PT
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Sigh...
There are so many things wrong with this read. No, I didn't read the whole thing - there is so much I disagree with that I could only skim it (every time I tried to read more than a few paragraphs it was like wtf and I then jumped forward hoping to find some sort of goodness in this).
I'll leave you with this quote from her writings
"When I started rock climbing, I didn’t know, or rather didn’t want to admit, that I was participating in a recreational activity made accessible to me solely due to the fact that my ancestors violently built the world we see now"
So her ancestors violently built the mountains and cliffs in the world? She is the daughter of gods then right?
I know I'm going to get a bunch of crap for this but here's what I took away from her gibberish
1) She secretly wants to hop in the sack with Alex
2) She desperately needs to hop in the sack with someone, anyone, anything
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Dec 11, 2018 - 06:44pm PT
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"The real offending group is not white males, but males of our species in general,between the ages of 18-40. After 40, most of us begin to get paunchy and have bad knees."
Almost.
Males between 15 and 40 are the source of most all violence problems (though males over 40 become the generals and leaders who send the youngsters into battle).
But Testosterone is the culprit. Its level in males declines after 40 years of age.
I've often speculated that all violent criminals (rapists, armed robbers, murders of strangers) need to be incarcerated until their testosterone levels drop, i.e. until age 40. After that, the riskiness of said individuals goes way down.
Thus, this title's thread should be rewritten to read "epidemic of toxic testosteronality. *
* Did I just invent a useful new word?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Dec 11, 2018 - 06:59pm PT
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Double sigh...
I poked around the site the OP used and came to the following conclusion - Erin M hates white peeps.
There are probably a lot of replacewiththeword(s)ofyourchoice quotes to choose from her writings but here's the first one I found (pretty easily BTW). At least her writings have a theme!
"To call “American culture” anything but White supremacist and patriarchal is false. "
I think I'll just leave you with that.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
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When I have free time I make a point of reading things that I will probably disagree with so I just read the whole virtue signal. I mean article.
Though the violence Rodgers committed isn’t the same as the emotional abuse that Honnold employs, there are interwoven threads. The messages that both of these individuals received is that they are permitted, even entitled, to act in these harmful ways. Comparing Honnold to a mass murderer pretty much sums it up.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Dec 11, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
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Don't get me wrong, I think women and natives would do a hell of a lot better job in the governmental aspects of our culture than old white men.
We are probably all getting sick of it (Old White Male dominance) at this point - but radical feminism with native-american heavy-guilt (from a white woman?) - aimed at a pretty good guy with great skills (and a great foundation that serves many) - is not the best approach...this whole thing smacks of a classic reaction-inducing emotional response that serves no reasonable approach.
The sh#t sells, though - sad it has spilled over into a often-joyous physical endeavor.
Portland Oregon. What do you expect? The Pacific Northwesterners have a particular ability in this regard.
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Jeffrey VanMiddlebrook
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 07:20pm PT
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Just more cerebral flatulence disguised as something worthy to waste one's precious life reading. Steinbeck said it best: "The written word can make a sane man seem insane and an insane man seem sane." Basically it comes down to sophistic nonsense, speciousness masquerading as truth.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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Haven't you made it as a cultural icon when you become the prism that refracts everyone's view.
I don't want to be dismissive, but the world is obviously more complicated than any one perspective. I didn't read all of her writing, but it seemed to be a feminist take on world history. Another examination of a touchstone accomplishment in climbing.
My 2 cents. Honnold is kind of in his own world. Lucky are those who share a part of it. He seems pretty genuine, not much of a taker.
Undoubtedly, climbers can be jerks, but in my experience, less so than many other user groups. Maybe better, I can take the minimum, and simply say, "I hear you. May be?"
edit: don't make them crusty old guys play their Todd Gordon card
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yosguns
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:37pm PT
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Keeping my mouth shut.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:40pm PT
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come on. there are some here that appreciate uppity women. even if we can't keep up, ahem.... anymore. youth is wasted on the young.
edit: I've been asked if I was a pillow biter, out of the blue. Seen a climbing clique or two. Undoubtedly, some ugliness, but maybe like werner professes, that ain't it. Hope you find some goodness, even if it means going solo in the hills.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
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Yeah, and some yoga teachers preach that defined abdominal muscles are the antichrist – a show of aggression, like the bearing of clenched teeth …
(and harmful to those who possess them)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 11, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
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Oh, and yosguns said:
Keeping my mouth shut.
Come on! What you really want to say is: #bringbackwarbler
Because, like, he would totally tackle this topic! And in short order ... Am I right? (heh)
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 09:03pm PT
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some folks culture the unkempt look.... just saying.
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plasticmullet
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
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She writes a mean article both literally and figuratively. Although I could give sh#t about her narrowly focused views at my current stage in life, if I were my younger self, I would enjoy the opportunity to discuss/debate/argue/talk with her around a campfire. Such are the experiences of youth and self-importance/inflation.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 11, 2018 - 09:42pm PT
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I have much more respect for Alex's achievements now. It was a super-human effort to free solo Freerider carrying all that guilt on his shoulders. What? he did it guilt free? isn't that cheating.
What you really want to say is: #bringbackwarbler
His head would explode reading that rant. For a minute I though warbler hijacked Lynnies account.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 09:59pm PT
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nah000 nailed it, back on one of the threads Ed pointed out above:
oh well... looks like at least a few of us find her ideas worth talking about, so i’m sure she’ll keep writing as long as there is an audience...
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Hubbard
climber
San Diego
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:08pm PT
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Anybody can go climb a rock. Nobody is ever being stopped from climbing because of race or gender. People stop themselves because of fear or a close call or because they don't even know what rock climbing is. Indians can climb if they want to and so can women. The divide on this planet comes down to which cultures decided to industrialize. Those that did are those that have had the most success. White men only? You are ignoring the brilliant Japanese who industrialized and dominated the much bigger China who did not industrialize. The Spaniards used their industrial power to dominate South and Central America. People from Spain are not blue eyed blondes from Norway. Egypt had its day in the sun. Race has nothing to do with any of it. It all comes down to organized culture based on science and invention. Is it right or wrong? Only you can decide for yourself. The OP writer gives so much credit to white men that she is pissing on all the brilliant work women have done. She is ignoring all the great inventions that occurred in Persia. She must think the Chinese who invented gun powder are just what? I think Jimmy Chin is of Chinese descent. How did he get so good at climbing and using technical equipment of the most advanced variety? He did it by education and will of effort like every other person who achieves anything of note. Attacking Honnold is the weakest thing. He's not perfect in every way but who is? He put himself on the line for his own reasons and deserves every bit of glory he is getting. The OP writer is just biting his ankles. I feel sorry for her and others like her who are torn to shreds inside by white guilt. I feel bad for animals that get hunted for sport and people who are enslaved and all the usual obvious things that most people also feel bad about. Is the writer expecting me to give my ropes and gear to the Indians or people of color or a woman like her? I worked hard doing dangerous things with chain saws to afford my gear. I will not give it away just because. I encourage everyone to climb and tap into the inner soul of the DNA monkey past we all share. The OP writer needs to bite off a bigger route than she has ever done because so far she is missing the point. She should buy a new industrial rope with her own money and go clear her head. Some of what she says is in fact accurate but only some of it. I would wager her understanding of the historical facts of the rest of the world outside of the "white" areas is lacking. Go visit a place like Yemen and see how you are treated as a woman. Industrial culture is tough to be sure but it is the gun that has leveled the field for women. Mans physical strength is checked by firearms. Women should learn to use guns and be proud and free instead of cry that men are bad. Only some men are bad and it is almost always good men who are stuffing them. Hitler got stuffed and so did those mean slave whipping Southern plantation owners. The past is gone. You are free here and now. Don't waste the time fretting. Round up your downtrodden friends and teach them the beautiful art of climbing and show them they can be as free as any gross nasty "white man." That is the best medicine you can give yourself. Leave Honnold out of it. He is an example of the best of us. His struggles with women are not uncommon. Things like that take time. If you ask me it seems like he was emotionally abused by his mother calling him a bozo. He got over it and soloed El Cap. The OP writer should try to figure out how he did that instead of bash on him. Check out Lynn Hill.
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Hubbard
climber
San Diego
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:12pm PT
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I left the above rant tight single space so people who need more education can get used to reading small tight print such as one finds in the encyclopedia. Read the dictionary first as a warm up and then dig in.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:29pm PT
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The article smacks of toxic femininity
privileged white women....amirite?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:12am PT
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A useless screed. Erin lost me in fewer than ten paragraphs.
I don't believe she knows, really, her audience.
She's an attack dog who is using high-sounding phrases learnt in sociology class throwing a tantrum.
Could have said what she needed to say in half that number of words, probably.
Roy's absolutely right. Cuz he's never wrong. And he's incapable of telling lies. Amiright?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Dec 12, 2018 - 05:52am PT
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*sigh*
She lost me somewhere around the 32nd umlaut.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:26am PT
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That's a great post Hubbard
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 12, 2018 - 07:27am PT
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Interesting viewpoint, although totally off base IMHO. Alex is not the devil incarnate. There are more deserved targets in the public domain for her to dissect with her acerbic keyboard.
" But if we relinquish the power we hold due to our privileged positions and identities, whether from class, race, or gender, we open ourselves up to knowing community and joy in the truest sense. "
What exactly does she want us to do, give Yosemite back to the Miwok? Stop donating to the Access Fund? Boycott Free Solo? Would that set things right?
BTW, isn't she misusing the word power according to her leading quote, attributed to Winona LaDuke ?
"Power is not brute force and money; power is in your spirit. Power is in your soul. "
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 12, 2018 - 08:50am PT
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I also like what Hubbard wrote! Sort of a mic drop kind of moment.
Maybe I won't have to channel the Warbler after all. Thank goodness, WAY too much work.
But Mouse:
Roy's absolutely right. Cuz he's never wrong. And he's incapable of telling lies. Amiright? 10 four, Breaux. Except that mostly I just talk sh#t, and that's neither right nor wrong, and all about fun.
Yours,
The Fibber
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 08:56am PT
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I read the ‘Ghost notes’, that’s all I needed. I’ll go have me cuppa now and revel in my awfulness.
edit:
Missed Page 2 and Tar talkin’ through his hat. 🤡
Meanwhile 12 people gunned down at the Christmas market in Strasbourg.
Now I feel more guilty.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:08am PT
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What exactly does she want us to do, give Yosemite back to the Miwok?
an interesting idea in managing the park. But to at least part of the point of that article, the representatives of the tribes who traditionally occupied Yosemite Valley have not been consulted regarding the various changes required to implement the latest Merced River Plan.
Consulting the tribes is required as excavation can disturb ancient sites of cultural importance.
But as was pointed out by climbers at a meeting a year and a half ago regarding the Camp 4 expansion/modification, there had been an agreement (or at least a serious discussion) with the Park superintendent in the past limiting the development in the Valley. All the recent activity runs directly counter to the spirit of that past discussion.
What is one to conclude regarding the relationship between all the "stakeholders" in Yosemite Valley? who is a stakeholder, who makes the definition, who is listened to and who ignored?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:09am PT
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perhaps the point that is made is that Life is not fair. Things that should change have been changing at a slow rate, but they have & are changing, it is a three steps forward & 2.5 back, an exercise in frustration.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:21am PT
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BJ queued this up:
I guess an education at Evergreen State College is good for something.
I'm loving it: any excuse at all to post prime BVB real estate, and I'm on it, peeps!
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plasticmullet
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:22am PT
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She writes a mean article both literally and figuratively. Although I could give sh#t about her narrowly focused views at my current stage in life, if I were my younger self, I would enjoy the opportunity to discuss/debate/argue/talk with her around a campfire.
Then you'd put the moves on her.
I'd whisper Native American place names into her ear, check mate!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:34am PT
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Dingus, I only skimmed this thread and didn't bother with the original link, but your Kurtz reference cracked me up. I didn't see the picture at first and something about that quote was ringing a bell :)
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:57am PT
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Wiki:quixotism (countable and uncountable, plural quixotisms)
That form of delusion which leads to extravagant and absurd undertakings or sacrifices in obedience to a morbidly romantic ideal of duty or honor, as illustrated by the exploits of Don Quixote in knight-errantry.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 12, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
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Yeah, all joking aside, ditto on what Zardoz just said.
Allyson, as a trad climber, environmental lawyer & promoter of gender equity, and woman, your voice is entirely relevant.
Let's hear it, please?
-Roy
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yosguns
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 01:57pm PT
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How did you know I was lurking right now?!
I really can't comment on Free Solo or the critique.
BUT...
My mom told me a timely story yesterday when I was driving the hour home from work HQ (I actually work in biotech). I like to catch up with Mom on long commutes. She said that when she was pregnant with my brother in 1989 as an attorney, she was making some point with a male colleague, or thought she was until another male colleague interrupted her and said, "Oh don't worry about her, you know how they get when they're pregnant." For some reason, the two men didn't appreciate her opinion and so she was discredited. It was that typical scenario of the two male lawyers in the late 80s and the pretty and precocious young female lawyer, who happened to also be very pregnant...and you know, "crazy." And that was that. Because he implied that what she was saying was nonsense or not some true reflection of reality, her opinion no longer was a reflection of reality. Only because he discredited her and he had the power to do so, only because of his maleness. Though we may not want to reflect on the weight of this fact: we live in a patriarchy (and a white one). When men discredit a woman's opinion, it's no longer a valid opinion because males are top of the heap in our patriarchy.
But...what if the truth is actually that the only valid opinions and reflections on reality ever are actually those...of pregnant women? Or of 28-year-old women? Or of 68-year-old women? I can imagine alternate realities where women's opinions--no matter how "whiny" or "crazy" or difficult--actually matter because just like any opinion, they are formed from experiences and education in this world.
<3
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yosguns
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
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Right or wrong is tricky. There's value in trying to figure out who's opinion is right or wrong, I guess.
An alternative to figuring out if the author is right or wrong: We become curious and wonder how the standard male hero narrative overshadows a lot of stories we don't hear (because they're not the mainstream ones). And we ask why the standard male hero narrative overshadows the other stories. Is it because it's a better story?
In this case, we don't even have to diminish the value in Honnold's story or HF. But we could possibly augment the value in some others.
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yosguns
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:19pm PT
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You and me both, zardoz. :)
And on that note, before I get too deep into this, that's my queue to sulk off somewhere.
Bonne continuation...
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
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Thanks for your input yosguns.
The thing is... there are condescending as#@&%es of all colors and genders. True, we still (mostly) live in a white patriarchy. But we've come a long way from "a woman's place is in the kitchen... barefoot and pregnant.
Today, just about anybody can be heard, if they're willing to stand up for themselves. The days of being summarily dismissed because of sex or ethnicity are (mostly) in the past.
The World is full of as#@&%es. You're gonna run across plenty of them. What makes the difference is how you deal them and how you process the interaction.
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yosguns
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:55pm PT
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I don't think she's being dismissed because she's a woman. I think she has a challenging viewpoint that, because it's being dismissed by a bunch of men (and some women adhering to patriarchal values) in a patriarchy, becomes not valid. But, I'm not sure it's being dismissed anymore for its invalidity than for the fact that it's challenging.
(Can't stay away!)
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Trump
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 04:13pm PT
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I was also seeing clearly how much I needed to work on myself as a settler colluding with these shegems of oppression.
Honnold s glory, and that of those before him, .. , come at a historically violent cost.
.. there exists threats to the inalienable rights of all.
Ahistorical narratives ..
.. all the lives that have been taken in order for him to be able to be in the position he is today ..
It’s an interesting criticism, like many identity politics criticisms are, in the ways that it confines itself within the context of being a human, and ignores the exact same arguments to be made outside the confines of being a human, an identity with which she might be inclined to also identify with.
So sure, Honnold’s glory comes at a violent cost. 4 billion years of survival of the fittest, resulting in these violent humans having for the most part outcompeted their competitors. We rest on their shoulders. Hurray for us and the glory of our essay!
But those f*#king self-righteous arrogant humans?! Not me, the other ones.
Inalienable rights? Inalienable to whom? Take those inalienable rights and a 6000 word essay and see how you fare against a mountain lion.
Ahistorical narratives? Hmmm, might be best to review and consider our 4 billion year old history of survival of the fittest. But doing that might require one to identify oneself in the same evil class as those other evil offensive humans. And avoid doing that at all costs of self-awareness or intellectual honesty!
All those lives that have been taken ... Yup. Still though, I’m not so inclined, in response to my toxic humanness, to let the mountain lion eat me. I wonder why?, and whether the same why might be manifested in her, too?
If we need to kill that mammoth, or slay that white male, then that’s what we do.
Me? I’m one of them too, whether the way you prefer to see me is through the lens of “white male” (and the differences between that and your preferred identity) or through the lens of a “human” (and the commonality between you and me that that entails).
Your choice, and she’s choosing. Honestly, she’s making the same tribal choice that most humans make, so it’s hard for me to fault her for that. But it’s not the choice that I prefer.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
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Well, as a Portland-based climber married to an enrolled tribal member and writer, I find that more than a bit harsh. I don't really want to be harsh in my response, but I come up with a couple of things:
a) Her rampant colonialist screed feels very much just like just another case of misappropriation of a cultural identity not her own. In that respect, it seems barely this side of the Rachel Dolezal experience.
b) She's attempting to make a living selling her ideas and services around "detaching from whiteness" (and climbing) but using white colonialist technology to do it.
c) Poor Alex. Everyone in the world is now projecting onto him whatever they need him to be for their own internal world and Erin is no way an exception in that. Such is the price of infamy...
d) Her whole climbing-as-toxic-masculinity thing is unaccountably over the top and she cherry-picks from the climbing world throughout her article to bend it to her lens.
e) Equating the conquest of rocks with that of aboriginal peoples is very much a stone too far (though I do personally equate sport climbing with the colonization of rock). Further, seeing how she's selling climbing and promoting herself as a climber on her website, I don't see how she's anyone to be casting stones at climbers, toxic or otherwise.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 12, 2018 - 04:53pm PT
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In the day and age of Trump she’s complaining about Honnlove for misogyny and cultural insensitivity?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 12, 2018 - 05:27pm PT
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I just saved this thread to PDF, because as we've seen, these boy-girl/girl-boy topics have a habit of getting struck wholesale by the "moderators", who, by my standards, have shown themselves to be rather immoderate with their sword.
Sure, we haven't yet seen any personal attacks or invective here, but I'm not even sure that's the metric by which they deem these topics worthy of dissolution.
Just saying. Pay no further attention to the man behind the curtain.
Carry on!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Nutty
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Dec 12, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
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Is it toxic femininity to be working for the man to make a living or by going to the market and eating out and not living off the land making your own clothes and shelter?
I like fast food myself, we have lots to be grateful for, free time included!
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
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Sure, we haven't yet seen any personal attacks or invective here
she may have trouble getting a date and is angry about it.
1) She secretly wants to hop in the sack with Alex
2) She desperately needs to hop in the sack with someone, anyone, anything
uppity women
No mistaking, the crazy
^make note of appearances here
The OP writer is just biting his ankles.
big of him?
Then you'd put the moves on her again, big of him?
I'd whisper Native American place names into her ear, check mate!
Inyouit
As much as I think the essay in question was a bit, umm, overwrought, I can apprecite many of her points. Maybe aim isn't as much of an issue when taking the nuclear option. Also, Yosguns's point about gender differences when making arguments seems valid. Hopefully look above?
Finally,
1) Gender differences? If a group of women said to most of guys here, "What you need is a good lay.", they would say, "Well, yeah!", and promptly queue up for more than they could finish (excepting maybe Hank). Who's cheap?
2) Ed H, generally civil, really needs an avatar. Can you imagine the intellectual cut downs if he really letv the hair down. Is that even possible? (please get him a nickname, prod his mind).
3) If I remember Chouinard was impugned in the essay. If so, we're all screwed. Still, he's has been saying that for a while (keep buying his stuff).
4) If I keep typing no one will continue reading this anyway. (please insert your opinion, and keep on topoing!) At least until the fulfillment of soothsayer Roy's predictions. I don't see it myself.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
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Wiki: In law, misappropriation is the unauthorized use of another's name, likeness, or identity without that person's permission, resulting in harm to that person. Also, approprio (“to make one's own”)
The end doesn't justify the means---Ovid.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:37pm PT
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BJ,
In response to your arguments, if someone were to call you a BJ queen, or mention holding you over a barrel, instead of addressing your point, .... wait, what was I saying? nevermind.
Oh yeah, disproportionate amounts of violence against women has been documented across many societies. If you want to put yourself over a barrel,... maybe no problem if you do it with love.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
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cough... cheers all! hope this gets figured out here on this climbing forum, you know for the sake of the world. get out there and have some fun with each other.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 12, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
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Thanks for straightening me out with those quotes, Jim.
I was speaking with regards to animosity between Supertopo avatars. I haven't seen that get out of line yet, which is often what gets these threads struck from the record.
And I haven't made any predictions; rather I'm just saying these types of topics meet a profile of those that go away.
I believe this is a valuable discussion.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
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Ok, just back for a sec. Don't think you have to apologize Tarbuster...
Maybe not much animosity between posters yet since most voices have been male (and in agreement). Some of the uglyish stuff wasn't really challenged either. Maybe it's those c*#k fights that can elevate things.
Finally, left to our own devices, seems a bit like Lord of the Flies?
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JC Marin
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 08:08pm PT
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Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but there appear to be multiple false equivalences in this piece...anyway, time to move on back to this reality.
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Trump
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
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Vying amongst each other for supremacy. There is nothing counterculture about this. It is actually the same story being told since Europeans first arrived on Turtle Island. Vying for supremacy is what white men are conditioned to do through our white supremacist patriarchal society
Since Europeans first arrived on Turtle Island? That’s as far back as our historical understanding cares to go? That description sounds a lot like the same story of survival of the fittest to me, and we can all thank our lucky stars that we’re winning that struggle for supremacy.
While I expect that her points about white men, and whiteness, and men, are largely valid and true, they’re probably equally true of humans in general. Why does she choose to apply them at precisely the point that she does, in a way that divides us in to white men, and others, rather than in a way that unites us, as humans? Our tribalistic others-blaming tendencies may in many ways be one of our most advantageous characteristics.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:20pm PT
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ok back again. wow, some of the stuff posted here make me wonder if the posters have any women in their lives.
give your mom a call and/or a hug if you're lucky enough to be able to. remember when she told you that YOU are a special snowflake? you probably were, to her at least.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:52pm PT
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4) If I keep typing no one will continue reading this anyway. (please insert your opinion, and keep on topoing!) At least until the fulfillment of soothsayer Roy's predictions. I don't see it myself.
It's so easy to misread things. I thought you wrote Toproping when I first read it - LOL.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 12, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
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ok back again. wow, some of the stuff posted here make me wonder if the posters have any women in their lives.
I have been blessed with incredible women in my life since the day i was born.
But that doesn't change my post upthread. it's easy, as she does, to criticize things. Supertopo is a perfect example -- half the threads here are one group of people criticizing another.
But yelling about how wrong and f*#ked up something or someone or some situation or belief is doesn't do a damn thing besides proving that you can yell.
To whine that the white male patriarchy is horrible might have been meaningful 100 years ago. Today it's just yelling into the echo chamber. if she wants to be taken seriously, let her offer some suggestions about how to make things better.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 10:37pm PT
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2) Ed H, generally civil, really needs an avatar. Can you imagine the intellectual cut downs if he really letv the hair down. Is that even possible? (please get him a nickname, prod his mind).
actually, the reason I post under my name is that I have to take responsibility for what I write here. Jousting with unnamed trolls really isn't very much fun, but so many of you take a false courage hiding behind avatars.
I just got a hair cut so not as much hair to let down these days.
As for toxic masculinity,
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/consequences.html
"Over 40% of female homicide victims in the U.S. are killed by an intimate partner"
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Dec 13, 2018 - 04:29am PT
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the reason I post under my name is that I have to take responsibility for what I write here
+1 for that. Anonymity is for pussies.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 13, 2018 - 07:14am PT
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yeah
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 13, 2018 - 07:43am PT
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Actually, the stats on "IPV" seem to make an interesting point. While they do show that women are more likely to be victims than men (especially in the case of sexual violence), the statics show that, overall, IPV is much more "evenly distributed" over the sexes than I would have thought (of course I really don't know the role that "same-sex" partners might play in these stats, since that's not spelled out, so I'll ignore it). For example, Ed posts the stat that " Over 40% of female homicide victims in the U.S. are killed by an intimate partner" (=IP). For the sake of argument, I will take that to mean 40%. Since female homicide victims represent about 22% of the total homicides (data for the US from Wiki), that means about 9% of the total homicides are women killed by IPs. On the other hand, the data from the CDC says "about 1 in 6 of homicide victims are killed by an intimate partner", so we can deduce about 10% of the male homicide victims are by IPs. In particular, close to 8% of the total homicides are men killed by IPs. That means the chance a man is killed by an IP is pretty close to (one might even say: "roughly the same as") the chance a woman is killed by an IP. This jives with the stat from the CDC page that says "Nearly 1 in 5 adult women and about 1 in 7 adult men report having experienced severe physical violence from an intimate partner in their lifetime."
I have to say that I lost interest in the OP article almost immediately and couldn't finish it. However, I do feel that by trying associate a concept like "Toxic Masculinity" to Alex Honnold and "Free Solo", all the author can do is strip the concept of whatever meaning it might have were it used in a more relevant context (e.g. Hollywood filmmaking or the history of professional mathematics).
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 13, 2018 - 08:34am PT
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Thread drift. IMHO, the "hiding behind avatars" thing is a bit overwrought. Maybe as much as the, "look what I've climbed, my opinion about representative democracies is the most valid," fallacy is waved on high.
One example, people sign agreements that can get them fired for social media posts. Topo politics, maybe like office politics can blur the lines of "reasonable" behavior too. There are things you would say to your climbing partners that you would never say at work. Some environments are just stifling, the internet should be more free in my opinion. It's virtual by nature right?
Finally, someone responded above to my comment. There are reasoned responses to the original article, some ugly stuff too, some in between.
Never meant to offend anyone, or maybe only in the best way
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 13, 2018 - 08:34am PT
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What Ed said.
Everyone gets his or her opinion. Erin Monahan included. I’d say we’ve read Ms. Monahan’s complaints before from a long list of postmodern authors, some of whom are female (but not all). They are common and somewhat reasonable complaints. There is pain and suffering in the world, and we are all guilty, interpretatively.
It’s almost de rigeuer now that we hear and see stories where men (most often white) are not very bright or knowledgeable, and women are more heroic, more courageous, and more knowing. My own experiences in the classroom at Santa Clara University, at the U of A, and at UW for at least 10 years might support those ideas. The men in my classrooms were too often lazy, where women seemed to be more collaborative, more engaged intellectually, and with better social skills in handling controversy. (However, I don’t have metric data to show you.) The story of superior women is now rather old and tired for me. In some respects, it is the same story as men have told. What I would like to see and hear is the next narrative, the next paradigm. What new evolutionary social idea or concept next should be described and sold to us?
It might be that the next story to celebrate would be one of men’s emancipation—but something that goes beyond being more emotionally aware and respectful. I’m up for a truly new world order. But what would it look like? To be evolutionary it would seem to need be unpredictable . . . something really new than simply “being nice and respectful to others.”
Be well.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 13, 2018 - 09:07am PT
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Thread drift? Ha!
I think the real question is why cut the freak flag? Can things virtually exist simultaneously, i.e. avatar/named? Also, did someone in the OW crew call the hair aid?
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 13, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'll be dead in another 20 or 30 years, so all I can hope is my daughter (and her peers) do a better job of things than you and I did, kingtut.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 13, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
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Erin is passionate, intelligent and consistent. I disagree with almost everything she writes but I admire her commitment and her zeal. I believe that she will eventually find her voice and get out of her own way.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Dec 13, 2018 - 04:50pm PT
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Erin is passionate, intelligent and consistent. I disagree with almost everything she writes but I admire her commitment and her zeal.
Exactly my thought….
My simple male brain would hurt if I were as passionate as she is.
In the end I think it is counterproductive to view the world through a prism.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Dec 13, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
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Using one’s own name is advantageous to those who benefit from authority bias.
I'm aware of that Robert, it is a characteristic of both bullies and insecure people. But the anonymity makes it easy to be really mean with no repercussions. And of course I used the term 'pussies' deliberately for a reaction. I actually meant cowards.
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spectreman
Trad climber
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Dec 13, 2018 - 05:44pm PT
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Erin is passionate, intelligent and consistent.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Her writing is disgusting.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Dec 13, 2018 - 06:05pm PT
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Erin is passionate, intelligent and consistent. I disagree with almost everything she writes but I admire her commitment and her zeal. Right: passionate, intelligent, consistent, committed, zealous.
If she can somehow add honest, just, and tolerant she'll then have some attributes that distinguish her from Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and their ilk.
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Rolfr
Sport climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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Dec 13, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
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I actually read the whole piece, as opposed to those who criticized it without making the effort to read it in its entirety, rather than dismissing the whole piece she has some valid criticisms.
Alex's attitudes to women is shame full and diminishes his accomplishments in my eyes, I hope his sponsors consider how many female athletes and climbers he has alienated.
Her comments on white male entitlement should at the very least make us, the climbing community reflect on how privileged and entitled we are to be able to obsess on such an insignificant pursuit
Unfortunetly of the 100+ responses on this post , only 1 or 2 women responded , that speaks volumes men.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2018 - 09:38pm PT
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That means the chance a man is killed by an IP is pretty close to (one might even say: "roughly the same as") the chance a woman is killed by an IP.
this may be a false equivalence, which is based on the assumption that the statistics are complete and that the motives for the murders are the same.
As far as motives, it could be that women who kill an IP do so in self defense, while men do so as an act of aggression.
How we look at this set of incomplete statistics, and what conclusions we draw from the analysis based on those assumptions, leads to very different views on the proposed equivalence.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 14, 2018 - 12:54am PT
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the Currie sisters had it figured out in 1980, but Cherie sounded a lot better with the Runaways The ladies spewed more masculinity than good old Merv. Cherie is a bid of a bad azz, she went on to become an accomplished chain saw sculptor, might have to get her chromosomes checked out.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 14, 2018 - 03:25am PT
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this may be a false equivalence, which is based on the assumption that the statistics are complete and that the motives for the murders are the same.
Good point
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Dec 14, 2018 - 08:10am PT
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Erin is passionate, intelligent and consistent.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Her writing is disgusting.
you may disagree with her writing, but why attack her passion, and intelligence?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 14, 2018 - 01:12pm PT
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When you see a welder firing up their rig they always have to tweak the knob before the flame gets sufficiently concentrated to do meaningful work. Otherwise, they can't lay down a clean "bead," and just end up burning everything to sh#t - which might be her point after all.
That much said, I'd like to meet Erin and see what lies behind the guff and white noise.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 14, 2018 - 03:45pm PT
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Mercy. Now being white is a pathological "condition" requiring "healing and liberation," especially crucial for those unaware of how sick they actually are. And the instructor is "woke" and you pay her cash money for the "training."
I believe this is called "diversity awareness," which is an essential study for any and everyone in today's world. But marketing whiteness as a pathology requiring a cure is so much marketing bosh - of that we may be sure.
The ways which people excavate a cash stream these days is remarkably creative. We have to give them that.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2018 - 04:01pm PT
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Sadly, I don't have the photoshop skills to produce an ad for "Healing from Internalized Maleness" featuring some of ST's most toxic denizens...
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 14, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
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But what would it look like? To be evolutionary it would seem to need be unpredictable . . . something really new than simply “being nice and respectful to others.”
Richard Feynman - The World from another point of view
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Trump
climber
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Dec 14, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
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The idea that we’re going to honestly and objectively consider how a perspective that’s different than our own might honestly be right, and how we might honestly be wrong, is so laughable, that it’s hard to understand why she, or we, bother to try at all, if that’s what we and she are honestly trying to do.
Me? I’m so sure that being white, or being male, or being human, or being me, have no effect on what I believe. I’m just a logically rational omniscient computing machine! churning out true beliefs, each one as true as the one before.
For all the people out there who are right - yea, you’re right, you’re so right.
For the rest of us, post away!
Or write an article. Best wishes!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 14, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
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I read the article in the OP. A very interesting perspective, much of which I appreciate or agree with outright.
But the whole Native American superiority complex of the author was bullsh#t. They're not any better or any more enlightened that us ignorant white folks.
Once I was given permission by a tribe to climb a sacred peak on a reservation in the southwest. I didn't ask, they surprised me with the offer.
I never climbed the peak. That's because we spent the day hauling out 45 trash bags of empty beer cans that we found on the slopes of their "sacred" peak.
Ain't no white folk been up on that peak, the natives were using their sacred peak as a trash dump. Sacred my ass. We're all just a bunch of ignorant hypocrites going for a ride on this spinning ball we call earth.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 14, 2018 - 11:03pm PT
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So I've read the 6,347 word piece: Ambient Dominion: How 'Free Solo' Points to An Epidemic of Toxic Masculinity, by Erin Monahan.
What I get is that in the movie about Alex and his solo of El Capitan, (which I haven't seen), Erin and other women, perhaps many women, and probably some guys as well, heck: could even be a great deal of those who saw the film, were confronted with the specter of Alex Honnold being a dick to his girlfriend. So Erin Monahan wants to sort that out.
She casts a very broad net to make sense of Alex. Erin starts with this, an observation which, for me, carries some insight:
“One of our people in the Native community said the difference between white people and Indians is that Indian people know they are oppressed but don’t feel powerless. White people don’t feel oppressed, but feel powerless. Deconstruct that disempowerment. Part of the mythology that they’ve been teaching you is that you have no power. Power is not brute force and money; power is in your spirit. Power is in your soul. It is what your ancestors, your old people gave you. Power is in the earth; it is in your relationship to the earth.”  Winona LaDuke
And near the bottom, in the first of the last four paragraphs, we get this from Erin:
The “warrior” path that Alex speaks of is for white men who think they are trying to escape unbearably happy and cozy lives. But what climbers are really trying to escape are the oppressive norms of supremacy and patriarchy that harm them as well. Without inner reflection, self-awareness, and internalized healing, men like Alex Honnold are doomed to inflict the pain they are experiencing onto those around them.
So Erin Monahan and other people were appalled at how Alex treats his girlfriend. He's also very single-minded about what he does, to the exclusion of other pursuits. He doesn't relate his exploits to the fact that we settlers took this land from indigenous people. And then she goes off on her own expeditionary inquiry to try to understand it. Nothing wrong with trying to understand the world around us, and the wrongs that have been done to self and to others. I give her credit for this.
As to whether she does justice to the task, it's hard for me to come out with a pat analysis of that. I definitely give her credit for trying, whatever the fluency and veracity of the effort. There's too much in there for me to deconstruct in a Supertopo post.
I take this kind of thing as food for thought. I see no reason to outright castigate the effort. Do I agree or disagree? It's not that simple. If I were asked to fill out a survey and those were my choices, I would simply decline.
–Roy
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 15, 2018 - 03:24am PT
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Thanks, Tarbuster. My old friend and philosophy teacher used to do that for me sometimes, when I got too frustrated to wade through heavy-handed philosophy texts and see where people were coming from
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 15, 2018 - 09:22am PT
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It should be noted that Alex's Free Solo persona was created from roughly 700 hrs of filming that was frequently quite invasive. A very capable and accomplished (woman) Director was largely responsible for digging through the footage and stitching together those fleeting moments that would create the Alex she wanted the audience to experience. Alex was made to appear callous, uncaring, and misogynistic at times but I wouldn't take that to necessarily be representative of him as a person.
I don't know Alex personally but thought he came across as intelligent, amusing, and brutally honest.
BTW I very much liked the movie and found none of it to be toxic, nor do I believe it was created with toxic intent.
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Trump
climber
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Dec 15, 2018 - 10:12am PT
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wtf is wrong with people?
It’s kind of one way to look at it, and it seems to be the way most people DO look at it, but framed more like “wtf is wrong with OTHER people.”
Me, I aspire to try to understand it more from a perspective of “wtf is right with people?”
So yes, her criticisms of whiteness and maleness and toxic masculinity are probably largely on point. But for me, I prefer to try to understand them in a context of 4 billion years of survival of the fittest, and what we did and do (in our beliefs and behaviors) in order to get to and maintain our present position in that contest for supremacy.
And sure, anonymous posters, and pussies, and I’m so brave and righteous for posting using my own name. That’s cool, props to y’all.
But the other side of it is that for those anonymous posters, their anonymity might free them from the social effects and consequences of saying and believing what they truly believe, without that being affected and modified by the social constraints of the social consequences and the social influences that have become (over 4 billion years of survival of the fittest) so highly effective at warping people’s beliefs in self-confirming tribal ways. Maybe they’re just not that drawn to admiring their own braveness. Maybe they’re not that drawn to biasing their own and other people’s relationship to ideas and beliefs as a result of an attachment to social interpersonal relationship dynamics.
So in all regards, sure, go for it, help us understand what’s wrong with OTHER people.
For me, I prefer to understand what’s right with them, especially to the extent that doing so makes me feel like they and I are part of the same we. Given our current position in the battle for supremacy, there must be something very powerfully right about what we humans do.
And for some reason, as a human, when push comes to shove, I’m not so inclined to see those same qualities being expressed in me as something that is wrong with me. I either don’t notice them in myself, or devise clever mental schemes for approving of them in myself, while criticizing them in others.
For me, I’m hoping to understand that in a way that unites us, rather than to just have it be expressed in my beliefs and behaviors in a way that works to my individual or tribal advantage.
You? Don’t do it my way, do it your way, and I’ll aspire to try to understand what’s right about that. And I expect that there are some drawbacks to my way of doing it.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 15, 2018 - 10:59am PT
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Part of the mythology that they’ve been teaching you is that you have no power.
I have never got this message from anyone. If anything, the message has been: go for it, why don't you do that, stop making excuses, that's great, go follow the beat of your own drum, what are you waiting for.
Well, you go grrrl! LOL
Edit: The pen is mightier than the sword. BS many still die for expressing their opinions.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Dec 15, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
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Cultural marxism and narcissistic radical feminism at its finest.
You can attribute these sort of articles to the domination of these marxist ideologies, indoctrinating the schools and universities throughout north america.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Dec 15, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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Alex was mean to his girlfriend?
She dropped him twice and chose to be with a famous and rich climber and wants him to change his life. Can we talk about toxic feminism?
I lead with the following statistic: 95% of jobsite fatalities are men. The backlash that you call misogyny is more likely an appeal to reason. We made it through history working together to build families and community.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Dec 15, 2018 - 01:02pm PT
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And what do you attribute Misogyny (far more prevalent including this thread)?
But I get it, when you feel threatened your's is a common response.
Cultural marxism is the ideology that western civilization is a result of oppression, through toxic patriarchal structures, of the oppressed. This has nothing to do with misogyny and you should look into what exactly marxism is before you ask about definitions of misogyny.
Also "your's is" is terrible grammar, maybe focus on brushing up your grammar. It might make your argument as a social justice warrior a little stronger, on paper at least.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 15, 2018 - 01:11pm PT
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That's not a grammatical error. You are just insisting that he spell yours in Canadian.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Dec 15, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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When you are indicating possession, yours is the correct choice, not your’s. You do not need an apostrophe to indicate possession because yours itself is a possessive pronoun.
Hope this clarifies it for your's ideas.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 15, 2018 - 01:47pm PT
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This ideology she perpetuates is about as useful as a genital wart. It's as easy (and also incorrect or overly simplistic at least) to make the opposite argument, that women have been exploiting men for their labor and protection throughout all history at men's expense and that therefore women are the 'privileged' ones. The "woke" couldn't me more asleep. They have a lot of adherents, similar to how "new age goddess" thinking did. Sure, all women are goddesses, that makes sense, lol. This crap is just the latest delusion and the B.S. is a script that writes itself, no wonder the older generations roll their eyes.
Also this stupid idiot author doesn't even mention Lynn Hill. These people know nothing and apply their script to everything.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 15, 2018 - 02:18pm PT
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Dec 15, 2018 - 09:22am PT
It should be noted that Alex's Free Solo persona was created from roughly 700 hrs of filming that was frequently quite invasive. A very capable and accomplished (woman) Director was largely responsible for digging through the footage and stitching together those fleeting moments that would create the Alex she wanted the audience to experience. Alex was made to appear callous, uncaring, and misogynistic at times but I wouldn't take that to necessarily be representative of him as a person.
I don't know Alex personally but thought he came across as intelligent, amusing, and brutally honest.
BTW I very much liked the movie and found none of it to be toxic, nor do I believe it was created with toxic intent.
Right on. The author of the essay would do better to write about Trump and the evil republican party that continues to attack our health care, environment, and anything else they get their hands on.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 15, 2018 - 03:03pm PT
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So, I guess Monahan didn't like it?
Watched "Free Solo" in a near-full theatre, which even in Boulder was not likely to have been an all-climber crowd. Enthusiasm and awe was prevalent afterwards. Also saw the Dawn Wall in a smaller arthouse where many women including Lynn Hill were viewing, if I remember right. None seemed bothered by Tommy's life choices. So that makes us all complicit, as well?
As to climbing being another bastion of male parochial empire, why were figures from Ruth Mendenhall to Bonnie Pruden to Lynn Hill and Steph Davis left out of Monahan's sophomoric screed? I'd forgotten how much rock and alpine soloing Catherine Destivelle did twenty-plus years ago. Her existence didn't support the argument, so was also left out.
I do want to say that over the years I have had opinions about climbing being a Peter Pan existence; that some resent rich white entrepreneurs of the Outdoor Industry who buy vast land tracts in South America to preserve from local destruction; that the freedom to be Kerouac On the Road footloose relies upon a sense of innate strength many never have available, and that those antisocial behaviors are idealized as virile displays. Of course, through the 1950's and 60's society did not venerate, even condone, but did condemn such outrageous misbehavior. Monahan doesn't apparently read beyond her strident small library of certified proto-feminist works. And the tirade unleashed in her essay takes morsels of sociological theory, and blows them all up into a Grand Unifying Theory of White Men Did All Things Bad, and Alex Honnold Proves It.
It just simply read like an undergrad paper regurgitating the more extreme misandrous manifestos. Conflation taken to the next level needs to be challenged. Alex did not assist in stealing Yosemite from indigenous people, and certainly was personally and historically removed from "all of the lives that have been taken for him to be able to be in the position he is in today."
We are all born into our own skins, white or otherwise, and the reverse racism that condemns us for that seems laughable. We can be sensitive to cultural atrocities of the past, and our nation has come around to a number of concessions in attempts to rectify past tragedies. We can be sensitive to how the past has led to lingering issues, and work to avoid perpetuating them. What we can't do is paint every sort of psychological interaction as a consequence of white male misogyny, and declare every behavior, even apparently socially beneficial ones, as contaminated, simply if the "perpetrator" comes from that reviled group of white men.
It is puerile to demand perpetual white privileged hand-wringing over sins of great-grandfathers - and, strangely, demands of minorities that they remain perpetual victims over generations, as well, to retain that dynamic. Sanni was young, but an adult who sought Alex out at an event; she has chosen to bond with him, in a complicated relationship, where each has the ability to leave, and neither has leverage aside from the emotional ties all relationship accrue. By caring about Alex, she tried to influence his decisions, like the old cliche, "I love you just the way you are, now change." Must she identify as a victim now, too? Who is really the perpetrator of victimhood, Alex, or Monahan? Because to me, her self-ingratiating essay is "I'm More Woke Than Thou."
Overall, since my climbing introduction in 1968, women were always in the club, and feminism was integral to the idea of equal participation. Ed February was climbing with white climbers in South Africa while Mandela was in prison, and I have always felt my climbing community was more inclusive and ahead of the curve in matters of equality and fairness in both race and gender.
Did Lynn Hill's twenty-fifth anniversary return to the Nose represent an "Epidemic of Toxic Femininity"? Her first free ascents of the Nose were not only mammoth accomplishments for any climber, but demonstrations of what any person might strive for. Must we diminish her by a certain percentage, for being white, albeit female? How, exactly, does ms. Monahan's scoreboard place a Lynn Hill?
"It goes, boys" is one of the great lines of all time, a climber's "One step for..." It may be a sly wink to those who may have not expected her achievement, for a girl, sure; but she has had a greater impact on thousands of strong women, in a direct way that Monahan's humorless vitriol will never reach.
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Jeff G
Trad climber
Fort Collins
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Dec 15, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
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^^^^^^^
AE,
Well written and perfectly on target. Thank you!
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Dec 16, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
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Can anyone remember a time when masculinity wasn't a bit toxic? seek, destroy, subjugate/enslave - it's kind of in our nature?
With the exception of some monastic/altruistic sects - and throw in an undiscovered tribe here and there - I am hard pressed to find a modern equivalent...
Additionally, one may have to go back many generations to avoid any kind of "cultural appropriation" - and how does that differ from adaptation of others' way for survival and advancement within one's own tribe? When exactly does that become "wrong"?
The clarity is lacking in many regards - just saying...
Angry white girl helps how much more than angry white guy?
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Dec 16, 2018 - 10:38pm PT
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I’d think climbers would be smart enough to determine that it wasn’t Sanni’s fault Alex was lowered off the end of his rope. She was a total beginner at the time and Alex takes her to a crag with a short/chopped rope, doesn’t tell her to watch the end and he doesn’t tie a knot in it. Given the huge difference in experience their is no way that was Sanni’s fault. Alex was in the leadership/guide role in that partnership and he should of been aware of the length of his rope and the fact that it wouldn’t reach the ground.
And when is the second time Sanni dropped him? If you mean when Alex fell on Freeblast? That had nothing to do with Sanni belaying. I just can’t believe people continue to blame Sanni for this stuff. People don’t seem to think Alex can actually f*#k up?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 17, 2018 - 06:30am PT
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Thank you AE for your eloquent insight.
Respect.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:18am PT
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Tarbuster. +1
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:38am PT
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She dropped him twice and chose to be with a famous and rich climber and wants him to change his life. Can we talk about toxic feminism?
Formerly known as P Whuppin'.
Thank you Tarbuster, AE & others who eloquently critiqued this article.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:56am PT
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A guy goes climbing on a rock and st00pid people tax their brains over it .....
Wasting their time not knowing who they really are and why they are even here and where they are really going .....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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If there's a weakness in what Erin wrote which is worth noting, it's that there is little in it that is particularly unifying, though she does try to outline a way forward. If I have a criticism, it's that she risks perpetuating the feminine-masculine schism through her casting of aspersions.
If anyone's interested in reading a sober and detailed account of the biological, evolutionary, and behavioral differences between men and women and the problems wrought therein (for millennia), that also points to a means of integration, unification, and solution, try this:
Sex and War: How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World
Once in Amazon, click on the "look inside" feature on the left side of the screen to see the table of contents. It's not light reading, but it's important reading and definitely on-topic.
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:22am PT
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I don't think I would continue to climb with someone who dropped me... twice... unless I deeply cared for them.
"While training for El Cap, he brought McCandless along for help and twice ended up suffering injuries. In the film, he says he considered breaking up with her as a result of the accidents.
“I never really blamed her,” he said in Canada, walking back his statement. “I wanted to blame her, but honestly, it’s more on me. Basically, I slipped, I fell, I hurt my ankle — she was there and she was belaying, but it’s not anything she did. It was just sort of unfortunate.”
“I was very much committed to learning: What did I do wrong?” McCandless said. “Could I have done something differently? How am I affecting you, and how are you affecting me?”
Sensing the tension in the room, Vasarhelyi chimed in.
“I think what the film was trying to say,” she offered, “was that we were questioning Alex’s judgment for training with a novice when he’s training for this big objective...""
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/los-angeles-times/20180930/283416307600104
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:30am PT
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A n00b can easily drop someone belaying as they lack experience.
I've seen it done right in front of me.
Kauk got dropped almost to the ground by his girlfriend years ago due to inexperience.
Give it up people, YOU are responsible for climbing with n00bs ....
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 17, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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You want some toxic?
Wiki: Papal Bull 1452:
We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property [...] and to reduce their persons into perpetual servitude.[3]
What group of people hasn't been exploited, enslaved, or murdered at some time in history?
After Labor asked for too much, like a living wage, many Corporations went to exploit the people of an opposing political ideology. So much for political ideological differences when there's money to be made. LOL.
Then the robber barons had to invent a way to make money out of thin air by exploiting the dreams of the suckers still breathing. I give you white on white cannibalism---Toxic Assets.
Wiki: The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 (CFMA) is United States federal legislation that officially ensured modernized regulation[1] of financial products known as over-the-counter (OTC) derivatives. It was signed into law on December 21, 2000 by President Bill Clinton. It clarified the law so most OTC derivative transactions between "sophisticated parties" would not be regulated as "futures" under the Commodity Exchange Act of 1936 (CEA) or as "securities" under the federal securities laws.
There currently appears to be a lot of Real Estate development going on. When it pops let's blame Alex. Yuk Yuk.
Edit: delete again. Credit source.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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What group of people hasn't been exploited, enslaved, or murdered at some time in history?
Our snowflakes.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 17, 2018 - 01:44pm PT
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Our snowflakes.
Snowflakes have no historical context/content. Would you elaborate?
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 17, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
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We are all born into our own skins, white or otherwise, and the reverse racism that condemns us for that seems laughable. We can be sensitive to cultural atrocities of the past, and our nation has come around to a number of concessions in attempts to rectify past tragedies. We can be sensitive to how the past has led to lingering issues, and work to avoid perpetuating them. What we can't do is paint every sort of psychological interaction as a consequence of white male misogyny, and declare every behavior, even apparently socially beneficial ones, as contaminated, simply if the "perpetrator" comes from that reviled group of white men.
Very well said.
The vast majority of Americans are butthurt that "Columbus Day" is no longer celebrated the same way as it is in fact a holiday celebrating the de facto beginning of a genocide "white-washed" into discovering empty lands etc etc. Columbus was a Slaver who was sent back to Spain in chains he was so brutal and hated by his fellow Spaniards...
That's funny tut. I don't know anyone that is upset about that.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Dec 17, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
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In a scheduled debate at the University of Toronto involving Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and students regarding the issue of government mandated gender neutral pronouns, university officials announced over the loud speaker there would be councilors on location for the students in the event they needed therapy after the debate.
I think that speaks volumes regarding those that shout loudest regarding oppression and the way universities, governments and institutions are petting these divisions through identity politics.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 17, 2018 - 02:02pm PT
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Regarding Alex getting dropped. Shouldn't there have been a knot in the end of that rope to prevent exactly what happened? Who's responsibility was it to check on that, a noob or a highly experienced professional?
Now that I think about it, it's even weirder. Shouldn't she have been tied in to that end of the rope? As I recall the movie makes it look like she was at a belay on the wall?
I would imagine that he figured out pretty quickly that he was at least partly at fault, but that didn't get in the movie.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Dec 17, 2018 - 02:46pm PT
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I dont care if it's your first damn day. I taught over 100 people to never drop anyone. Ever. Takes 10 minutes and some reinforcement.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 17, 2018 - 03:05pm PT
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All of this talk about Alex in FREE SOLO made me think of Chauncy the Gardener in BEING THERE. It was my favorite movie for a long time. People projected all kinds of stuff onto Chauncy. It's ALL pretty hilarious.
I've posted this photo on ST before, I think, but that would have been before Alex free-soloed El Cap. Funny thing is, this kid's name is Alex also.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 17, 2018 - 03:18pm PT
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Females risk it all the time in nearly every animal phylum for their offspring...much more rare for their mates unless they are the rare truly monogamous species. Human females, not so much. recently I met on the trail to my climbing destination mama bear with two cubs and backed off.
I would do the same if I would meet Erin Monahan alone
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Dec 17, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
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^^^
No we aren't their therapists, we are just their fans that reward them financially for what they are doing.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 17, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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She brings up a lot of good points,
almost none of which pertain to her premise.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
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Leave Alex alone.
You're an idiot and idiots just end up killing whomever they mess with ....
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
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He who makes a beast out of himself, get's rid of the pain of being a man.
Who said it?
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
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trying to wrap my brain/heart around the entirety of this hot mess of assembled words, has left me ultimately giving up...
too much that is delivered, with seemingly authoritatively intended and objectively framed language, would have no hope of passing the most ideologically driven third party review.
at the same time there is much that comes, for me, from both an interesting perspective and, seemingly obviously, from a place of honestly experienced passionately felt emotion.
and so those who entirely dismiss ms. monahan’s writing [because there are intrinsic inconsistencies, because there are exaggerations/half-truths and painfully obvious decontextualizations and because etc.] fail to open themselves to what is some very interesting emotional work that i see ms. monahan as doing for both herself and ultimately, as well, for us as a collective whole.
at the same time, i hope, as she continues to go down this path of exploration, that someday she can better articulate her own experience... one that i am assuming has left her with the intense desire to formulate such a “rigid theory of everything” [as she attempts to lay down in the piece that started this whole thread.]
for me, the only art that is unsuccessful is that which makes one go “meh”.
based on the responses of the last ten plus pages, regardless of its intent, on some level ms. m has created an incredibly succcessful rorschach test for all of us to take.
i hope she continues kicking at the hornet’s nest.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:17pm PT
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
Dec 17, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
He who makes a beast out of himself, get's rid of the pain of being a man.
Who said it?
I believe it is from the Beowulf story
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 17, 2018 - 11:05pm PT
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nah000 said:
based on the responses of the last ten plus pages, regardless of its intent, on some level ms. m has created an incredibly succcessful rorschach test for all of us to take.
Exactly. At the outset, independent of the cogency of her argument, all she had to do was attack our "hero" Alex Honnold. I haven't even seen the movie, which somewhat disqualifies me from speaking knowledgeably on this thread, or in critiquing her piece on the whole. But I'll continue anyhow.
Personally, that she uses Alex as her fulcrum: that doesn't pull me in. Because on some levels, I don't give a damn what Alex does on the rock. He climbs for himself and so do I. So that she disparages him is not particularly a hook for me.
But it certainly is for some of us, and that probably has more to do with her choice of singling him out. Whether or not he's the right guy to focus on: she doesn't care. The fact is it worked, no? At least for reaching our particular population; a cohort of risktakers. A cohort historically comprising young men. (Now, many of us are just a bunch of older young men, but that's beside the point.) And certainly if she were angling purely to rile a bunch of us on this forum, she was spot on in picking on Alex.
We've got fewer women on this forum than ever. That is to our detriment for a variety of reasons. The least of which is that we have almost no input here from women on this particular topic. We don't even know how they feel about it, right? Now we are the echo chamber, yes?
But look at the picture she posted of some young women watching the film about Alex. If this is how a portion of our female population responded to that film, then dammit, I'm taking notice.
Their expression says everything to me:
[I can't be sure what those women are watching with pen and paper at the ready. Might be a sour Chippendale's routine. But I'll take it as Erin presented it.]
Looping back to the book I recommended on the previous page: Sex and War: How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World
Just scrap Erin's essay altogether, or peruse it with respectful curiosity and then look beyond it – perhaps read this book. It addresses everything she's talking about, and then some. And the authors do a much better job of laying out the problems with male aggression and the corresponding balancing effect of female temperament.
In short, my synopsis of the book, Sex & War:
In chimpanzees and in human beings, males and young males alone, for the most part, engage in organized team aggression. That's male bonding, in a nutshell, and that's its purpose. Females simply do not take part. In chimpanzee populations, they might sit by and watch and get excited and root for the males, but they don't join in with the male's organized aggression toward lone, outgroup chimpanzees in order to expand their territory.
Its key that this is also largely ascribed to young male behavior. Older males tend to have a moderating effect on the aggressive and violent behavior of young males, especially in human beings. But older human males are still men. They still retain a propensity for acting rashly, aggressively and sometimes violently in comparison with women.
Enter women's reproductive rights as a critical player in the thesis. In third world countries where women do not have access to contraception and control over reproductive rights, there is a disproportionate amount of aggressive young men, uneducated, running around on the streets, causing trouble and getting into crime. (Higher birthrate equals higher proportion of youth to adults.)
If/when women are given control over their own reproduction, they typically have less children. In that scenario, the ratio of young men to old men comes more into line, and there are less children overall vying for education, which means better access to education overall.
Better education combined with less young, aggressive, angry men on the streets often equals a better chance at improving socioeconomic conditions and those third world countries begin bootstrapping themselves and moving toward civil society. (This helps dilute the seat of terrorism.)
As women become better educated, and have more access to political posts, the female propensity for acting less rashly than men of all ages in the face of conflicts real and perceived, helps balance out geopolitical decision-making, which dilutes the propensity for developed nations engaging in retaliatory war.
In short, regarding the empowerment of women – that project is critical to the survival of our species.
Regarding Erin Monahan and her piece: Ambient Dominion.
This is what Erin is angling at, whether she knows it or not. But she's overcharged with her own rage, and though that has drawn attention, it doesn't currently show so well in terms of presenting a cogent argument.
Feminist rage might be helpful in stirring the pot, but it's not a unifier.
However, in the long haul, empowering women through control over their reproductive rights, allowing them access to higher education, which begets access to a more balanced distribution of women in decision-making positions in companies and in politics, is potentially a balancer of the aggressive, warrior-like tendencies of men, and also a potential unifier in the political realm, both local and geopolitical.
That's what I think about, when I struggle to understand exactly what door Erin Monahan is knocking on, or breaking down, as the case may be.
That's my response to the Rorschach she has presented for me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2018 - 11:50pm PT
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Enter women's reproductive rights as a critical player in the thesis.
If you want to bring reproduction and biology into the fore it should be noted that whether it's chimp, human, or rams butting heads these male behaviors are to a degree serving females by trying to gain favor in mating. And, in humans, if you get all the way down to the level of the biomechanics and biochemistry of sperm competition as they did in the Manchester study it shows human females are not monogamous by 'nature'; just the opposite and that likely plays a significant role in the evolution of male behavior. So it's not just the testosterone, it's testosterone and estrogen in an evolutionary dance where male dominance behaviors are only recently more problematic (from an evolutionary perspective) against the backdrop of a modern, overpopulated world saturated by the internet and strewn with advanced weaponry.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 18, 2018 - 03:51am PT
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Everyone solos for a different reason. Anyone who puts all soloists into the same motivational category (a) doesn't understand soloing and (b) loses all credibility regardless of whatever else they say.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 18, 2018 - 04:35am PT
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I just keep checking in on what it is that others have to say on a rather excessive missive I saw as a crap way of gaining our attention. She puts her own issues into a fishbowl, adds a current hero, to fan the flames and now has this and other stews to point to. I hope it leads to a career for her, or a life partner if that is what she is looking for? Anyway, I think we are giving her what she is after.
Here are some of my own wasted words
in a sleepless moment I went for it, no doubt inspired by those I see here responding on this page Joe, Warner, SLR, Nah000 & Tar, all of whom I imagine sent things in the scary, unforgiving way, at some time?...
Also
the idea that solo climbing is done for anyone other than the sole participant is wrong.
For decades Soloing was whispered about among the cognoscenti.
It was not practiced for others consumption.
Slowly the rags, trying to outsell each other started to try to record the feats of daring-do.
Derek Hersey's(sp?) death put a stop to it for a while.
Before & after that many participated in fun 3rd class "trains" where as many as a dozen climbers would waltz the cutting edge of "funtime climbs"
Certainly, there are the near-mythical ascents of a few 5.12+s. As well as a few onsight.
The picture used for an advertisement, of Dean Potters ground-up on-sight 1st ascent of King Tut(?)is all I can think of off the top of my head.
Of course
John Bachar!John Rorshot(sp?) Richard H, Coz, WarnerB, Mike Head, so many others. . .
There are so many from the 20 years where my experience intersected with the cordless game at one time cheekily called 3rd classing. Derek,...
On the east coast in my own experience Scott Franklin, Russ Clune, Rich's of all kinds were all but silent about their cordless accomplishments.
This one time, someone else out by themselves for a 'stroll', who wrote the guidebooks, walked around a corner and said "Go right, not left" and did not stay to watch the outcome.
just saying . . .
now, 30 years later.
'Single File', onsight, what was I thinking? just strong & climbing. |
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 18, 2018 - 05:10am PT
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Whatever else Erin's writing has achieved, it certainly has inspired us (toxic) males to literary eloquence, (even some who normally post one-liners)...
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Dec 18, 2018 - 07:30am PT
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well said
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2018 - 07:37am PT
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Everyone solos for a different reason
They are all NOT trying to do the climb ultimately?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 18, 2018 - 09:46am PT
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Well, as other news breaks: one of my favorite toxic white male personages, Keith Richards, turns 75 years old today!
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 18, 2018 - 11:39am PT
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Enter women's reproductive rights as a critical player in the thesis. In third world countries where women do not have access to contraception and control over reproductive rights, there is a disproportionate amount of aggressive young men, uneducated, running around on the streets, causing trouble and getting into crime.
I'm trying to understand the connection between no birth control and unruly men. I'm a little thick. Is the connection this: women w/o birth control have less sex with men and thus men become more unruly.
If Erin had titled her story, Men are Toxic, I'm guessing the response from male climbers would have been zip.
Personally, I don't find it strange that few women are on ST. My observation is women tend to associate with other women.
This may not be high school but the clics (sp?), or tribes, we associate with are still just as real. The process of fixing nitrogen by the Haber-Bosch process led to an abundance of food. This led to tribal overpopulation. The cohesive nature of a tribe is directly proportional to it's size. When the tribe gets to big, groups of the tribe splinter off. And later there is bickering/fighting between the groups.
Female/male relationships have always been in a state of rapture/frustration and this conflict has been a source for material in literature for a couple of years or more.
Tyranny by a majority is just as unappealing to me as tyranny by a minority. I have had the liberty to do as I please. I can be PC and respectful of any group I choose to be around. My choices are discriminating (even if I'm not aware of it), that's a given. I'm not going to hang out with a group I don't feel comfortable in, that's liberty, not racism.
Currently, I'm at liberty to burn all the petroleum I want to. I'm self governing.
Here's the real rub between the left and the right---there isn't one. It's fake. There both hypocritical and their both at liberty to be so. One group is always going to try to one up the other---that's just human nature
People cry about Trump rolling back environmental protection laws but take no responsibility for their own consumerism. It's consumerism that's driving industry. Environmentally speaking, I see no consumer difference between the Dem's or Repub's. Economically speaking, they both want gobs of money w/o restrictions. The differences are purely ideological ones but the practice of both are capitalistic. Of course the laws are stacked to benefit those in power. I'm not saying it's right---it is historically human nature.
For better or worse, liberty cuts both ways, and as much as I like mine it will ultimately be our collective undoing.
The method, or trick, will look very different from anything we have seen before---Feynman.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 18, 2018 - 11:53am PT
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This may be one of the more interesting and relevant threads to appear on ST in some time exemplifying generally civil, informed and critical discourse.
Apropos to the premise of white male patriarchies as the root cause of our social ills; we live in a world of identity politics and from my limited understanding, life is a much simpler enterprise if we choose to categorize others we disagree with or feel threatened by as “them” rather than “us”.
It appears the more broadly ascribed the ideologies and perceived differentiation, the greater the risk of tyrannical social constructs that deny or absolve us of our unique personal accountability or potential contribution to greater good.
Associating or implicating Alex Honnold’s accomplishment on Free Rider with this larger conversation seems like an incongruous leap of logic to me.
Just sayin’
Perry
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Dec 18, 2018 - 01:22pm PT
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Soloing free climbs is a strictly personal pursuit. The counter argument is that it's not solo if you are not alone.
Well, I guess then that I have mostly done free dualing. Maybe just that time that my partner and I thought we would do an alpine 5.4ish route and we each ended up on much harder terrain on either side of the actual route...
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 18, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
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...empowering women through control over their reproductive rights, allowing them access to higher education...
Agree with your sentiment.
Note, however, according to Wikipedia, "In 1967, women surpassed men in number of bachelor's degrees conferred in the United States, and more bachelor's degrees have been conferred on women each year since. Since 2005, the majority of degrees in each category (including master's, and doctoral) have been conferred on women in the U.S."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_education_in_the_United_States
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 18, 2018 - 02:12pm PT
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When I went climbing in Jordan several years ago, it was very obvious that about 90% of the students at the country's university were women.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 18, 2018 - 03:13pm PT
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Yeah, Rattlesnake & SLR: a lot of women were voted in during the most recent midterms, so it's happening, and as you both noted, the trend has been gaining momentum for some time.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 18, 2018 - 03:26pm PT
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Proper representation is a good thing.
Real men aren’t panicking.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 18, 2018 - 05:42pm PT
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I should mention that my wife and a former girlfriend of mine (and climbing partner from the 80s) both saw Free Solo together and loved it. Lisa doesn't remember anything off-color about how Alex treated his girlfriend. She and Grace had dinner afterward, discussed the movie and none of these relational issues came up.
Lisa holds records as a champion mountain runner and Grace still climbs.
Lisa says:
For me the film was an opportunity, 100% about learning of human athletic potential and a little bit about the personality of someone capable of such a thing. Knowing that he made it [w/o dying], as an athlete myself, it helped me to relax, empathize with what he was doing, and focus on appreciating the physical and mental mastery involved.
Neither of them have read or heard anything about Erin Monahan's piece.
Haven't asked Grace about any of this Monahan stuff, just Lisa, in reflecting to her what I read. Grace just told me she really liked the movie.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 18, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
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I saw a lot of honesty in the film about the relationship between Alex and his per amour. I don’t understand their relationship, but who am I to judge.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 18, 2018 - 10:40pm PT
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Took the time to read Erin’s article.
She seems pretty riled up about white men, how they treated aboriginals and a notion that Alex is merely a contemporary manifestation of “toxic (white male) masculinity”.
For the record, I’m mostly white (and mostly male) with a good measure of bow and arrow in the genetic woodpile.
Yes, Western Europeans ruthlessly pillaged the Americas and committed to a path of cultural genocide but; let’s also acknowledge that First Nations were incredibly violent towards each other.
It’s also true that most North Americans either aren’t aware or don’t want to accept the fact our countries were violently appropriated and, while we’re at it (and speaking from direct experience), an inconvenient truth is that most Canadians will tolerate almost any ethnicity other than our own First Nations.
Having said all that, I can’t for the life of me figure out how this connects to Alex and his solo of Free Rider and suggest this is a ludicrous reach on Erin’s part.
Regarding his on screen relationship with Sanni, I thought I saw more of an awkward attempt at humor than denigration but maybe that’s just my “inner whiteness” clouding my logic.
It appears to be a voluntary relationship that Sanni’s free to leave if she so chooses so I’m having a hard time seeing her as a victim of Alex’ “toxic masculinity”.
Although it will never happen, I’d really enjoy watching Erin try to sell her story to Jordan Peterson.
PB
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 19, 2018 - 02:02am PT
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She needs to be slapped hard with libel, or to have some 'toxic femininity' article written about her. I bet she would not like it one bit. Too bad honnold doesnt have hungry lawyers or letigious tendencies, she seems like she leaves herself wide open for this stuff. I hope she enjoys being offended by everything, which, judging from her other articles' titles, is her style and theme.
The one thing that remains common, is the toxic. Shes toxic. Her writing is nearly unreadable. My prostate tries to fall out after more than one paragraph at a time. Very few peoples writings have accomplished this.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2018 - 04:07am PT
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It seems more a case of a woman sorting out her own identity/history and overall I think it says much more about her than Alex - not necessarily a bad thing in terms of the alternative of a completely unexamined life.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Dec 19, 2018 - 07:24am PT
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Poor dude, first the amygdala thing, then the weird intestinal flora, and now toxic masculinity.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 19, 2018 - 09:00am PT
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AntiChrist: Erin needs a good lay.
Hence, her argument.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Dec 19, 2018 - 10:55am PT
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I don’t understand their relationship, but who am I to judge.
Agree with the understanding and it is hard to know how accurate of a portrayal the film gave.
But saying that any relationship should never be judged because that is there choice, I'm not with you on that.
For example, if someone is in a domestically violent relationship, I think it is perfectly reasonable to judge that relationship as bad.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2018 - 11:11am PT
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Not saying no relationship can be judged, just the one portrayed in the film.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 11:31am PT
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I haven't seen the film, only met Alex once for a brief moment, and didn't read the article, other than to take a cursory glance.
But, I have been following this thread. While there is plenty I could comment on, I'll just choose one point, which was made a while back about not very many women being on ST because people like to hang out with others like themselves, and ST is "mostly guys."
That's not the reason there are few women on this forum, and while I surely can't speak for every woman who has came, saw and left, I CAN tell you that for the most part, women who come here have reported being nearly immediately inundated with unsolicited communications which have quickly turned to a sexual nature and if rebuffed or even let down easy, have sometimes turned hostile.
Some women I have talked to have reported being stalked as a primary reason for leaving.
It's pretty standard, when someone mentions ST as a resource, that it's suggested, if female, to use an avatar that in non-specific to a gender, and to give no indication that you are female. I have heard people say this dozens of times.
There are women here, FWIW. You just may not realize it, or they may choose not to post. It's just not worth the hassle that comes from being a voice here, for the majority of women.
Luckily there are a good number of decent people here who are men, but unfortunately they are not the majority, and as we all know, it's the negative experience that sticks with a person most.
That's a pretty sad comment on the toxic masculinity in general for this online community, unfortunately.
Carry on with your judgements, thee who deem the author of that blog post as being unjustly judgemental. Irony.....
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 11:32am PT
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Wesley said, quote: "Pretty obvious what the real issue is... but nobody is man enough to say it... Erin needs a good lay."
Are you just unable to argue against her discourse at all then?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 19, 2018 - 11:34am PT
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Btw, "Toxic Masculinity" would be an awesome name for a route with a phallic mineral formation on it...
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Roadie
Trad climber
moab UT
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Dec 19, 2018 - 11:54am PT
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Got about a third of the way through it. Pretty standard rant. I'm mostly pretty sick of the Noble Savage fantasy. Even the most casual glance at anthropology will reveal that people, since the beginning of humanity, (long before if we look at our chimp cousins)have had wars and raids. Less technically advanced peoples just lacked the economy to do it on a large scale.
Whatever, she is entitled to whatever opinions she wants, I am too busy living in my van, being childish, oppressing women and people of other races and consuming far, far more than I need, to care.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Dec 19, 2018 - 12:11pm PT
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Thanks for your perspective Happiee, most of us guys just have no idea what it's like for women on this, or any (every?) board. Those of us who don't do that stuff just assume everyone is like us, but I've heard enough tales from women across a broad array of online forums to know that just isn't so.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 19, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
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Yeah, I'm with Off White on this, but Happie, is this really what you meant to say?
Luckily there are a good number of decent people here who are men, but unfortunately they are not the majority I certainly have no argument with what you said in general, and yes the trend of stalking and harassment is awful, but you are inferring the good men here are in the minority?
That's a pretty strong statement, and I don't know how you can credibly (and fairly) support that assertion.
[edit]
Per what Zardoz reposted from Happie,
No question, if you really want to talk about toxic masculinity, this (stalking + harassment) is it.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 19, 2018 - 03:51pm PT
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It's pretty standard, when someone mentions ST as a resource, that it's suggested, if female, to use an avatar that in non-specific to a gender, and to give no indication that you are female. I have heard people say this dozens of times.
Thank you, I stand corrected. I'm clueless on how females can stay safe on the internet other than to just stay off it. Your advice to use an Avatar is good. Some folks have said that using an Avatar is cowardly. Guys can get stalked to but is under reported. I was harassed at work but was to proud to report it.
I have noticed women, who are out jogging or walking, with headsets on, and unaware of their surroundings. I was rather dumbfounded.
I suggest all women take a personal defense class; although, my daughter wouldn't do it.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
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Women DO take personal defense course.
I can't help wondering why don't people suggest men take "How not to be a rapist" course......
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 05:41pm PT
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No worries. I don't remember that incident.
Also, like I wrote, my comment was not about the author, blog post or Alex, but about one of the reasons women don't show a presence here.
Tarbuster, maybe I should not have written that the decent guys were a minority. But....if we were to go with a 2/3 majority instead of 50%, I think it might be an accurate statement. Sorry to the guys who are surprised by that, or worry they might be cast in with the deplorables,but I think some of the experiences some women have had here would be surprising to you.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 19, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
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I can't help wondering why don't people suggest men take "How not to be a rapist" course......
I might be wrong about this statistic, that over half of women have been abused by a known perpetrator.
All violence is unacceptable, even the violence that is labeled noble, honorable and of a higher calling.
Poverty is the sign, violence is the symptom. Cure the cause, goodbye symptom. No, we are told, kill kill kill!
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 06:14pm PT
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I'm using my phone so posting is difficult right now.
I meant that I would stand by 1 our of 3 male ST posters has displayed behavior that I would say women,in general, might find off-putting from a gender-inclusive angle.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 06:18pm PT
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And that as guys, and from an earlier generation, you just may not really get how it can be intimidating or unappealing.
There are ways to find gain access besides the ST messaging. A month ago some creep sent me a nasty email via a Contact button on my web shop.
Edit: If your identity is known, and you're a professional, your at risk of getting contacted via work.
This crap really does happen.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
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I showed this cartoon to my wife and she laughed out loud, so I hope it only brings laughs here.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Dec 19, 2018 - 06:59pm PT
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ZardoZ: No. I only got creeped out when Cosmic stole my photos from other sites and photoshopped them and posted them here.
I’m sorry happie has such a hard time dealing with men on ST. I wonder if it has to do with her being a woman, or her posts about fixing her busted van every 6 months?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 19, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
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Happie,
Fair enough. Since those numbers are thumbnail at best, I'll take your adjustment as a gesture of good faith.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
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So much hand wringing...
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part-time communist
Mountain climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 19, 2018 - 07:30pm PT
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Erin’s essay was written in the spirit of climbers and climbing community which is to “go against the status quo”
So, good for her and f*#k all y’all.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 09:38pm PT
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My take away from the article is that the author wants to kill all white men, bathe in their blood, and slowly consume thier corpses
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 20, 2018 - 05:59am PT
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Zardoz, I didn't say any number of men have creeped ME. While there have been some, what I'm referring to is witnessing it in general. I don't have to be personally targeted to know someone is creepstery, when they're doing it to someone else, whether that be an actual person posting here, a public figure, or even just the concept of "female."
I'm sorry you don't care for the message.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 20, 2018 - 06:27am PT
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Happie wrote:
I can't help wondering why don't people suggest men take "How not to be a rapist" course...... This is no joke.
Are we talking about toxic masculinity? Let's put Erin's abstruse argument against Alex aside for the moment. (And I don't think this constitutes thread drift.)
Militant feminism may not exhibit a unifying goal of the sexes as its first action, but it's no wonder this sort of divisive feminist anger and angst perpetuates, Re: Erin Monahan.
..............................................................
Whatever might be said about the source and the manipulation of statistics, definitions, and variables in reportage, start here:
https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
Yeah, I've cherry picked just a few, I invite the reader to get in there and parse it. Or find another source. References are provided by NSVRC.
Sexual Assault in the United States
One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives
91% of victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and nine percent are male
Annually, rape costs the U.S. more than any other crime ($127 billion), followed by assault ($93 billion), murder ($71 billion), and drunk driving, including fatalities ($61 billion)
Child Sexual Abuse
One in four girls and one in six boys will be sexually abused before they turn 18 years old
96% of people who sexually abuse children are male, and 76.8% of people who sexually abuse children are adults
Only 12% of child sexual abuse is ever reported to the authorities
Crime Reports
The prevalence of false reporting is low — between 2% and 10%.
I'm no sociologist, but I can read. Toxic masculinity: Erin's angst may be a symptom. Perhaps I'll get into the nearly ubiquitous trend of rape by invading & occupying forces during wartime.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 20, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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It was? Slaydies rule!
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Dec 20, 2018 - 02:47pm PT
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I think she [blogger] is just young and impressionable....
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 20, 2018 - 02:59pm PT
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Good post, DMT...Scary time for boys.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 20, 2018 - 04:03pm PT
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Larry, thank you.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Dec 21, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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A nice contrast to getting caught up in toxic masculinity.
Mountain Biking's Bumpy Road to Gender Equality
After her win at the UCI Mountain Bike World Championships, Kate Courtney noticed a shift in how people talk about women in sports
On September 8, 2018, during her first year as an elite racer, 23-year-old Kate Courtney won the UCI Mountain Bike World Championships in Lenzerheide, Switzerland, ending a 17-year gold medal drought for the United States. Reflecting on her win, Courtney noticed a shift in her interactions with fans—particularly male fans. Here’s the story, in her words.
I’ve made a living out of being uncomfortable. I ride through the rain, tumble over rocks, and push through rugged climbs laden with roots, ruts, and boulders. In order to get better, I have to take risks, and I have to suffer. I thrive in these moments of discomfort, because I know they ultimately lead to the next level. But there is one type of discomfort I have never gotten used to, one that can’t be controlled by putting my head down and working harder. It’s the discomfort that usually comes from interacting with male fans at my competitions.
I’ve received marriage proposals and many unsolicited observations on my appearance. Two years ago, after I won the national championships, a group of teenage boys shouted in unison, “You’re cute!” I had just won nationals; I was covered in dirt and sweat, my fishtail braid fraying from exertion and elation. This outburst told me that when they watched me race, some weren’t paying attention to the skill I had spent the past decade cultivating. I was a lot of things that day, including many more powerful adjectives than “cute.”
Such interactions have long been the norm for women across all sports. Even in mountain biking—where women race the same course, for the same amount of time, and for the same amount of prize money as men—female racers are all too familiar with receiving these types of comments. Even if the talk isn’t explicitly centered around a woman’s body, her accomplishments are often qualified by gender. She didn’t just win nationals, she won women’s nationals. She doesn’t ride well, she rides well for a woman.
This year, however, I experienced a distinct and heartening change in the way people interacted with me. After crossing the line at the world championships, and in several instances since, conversations about my riding have shifted from a preoccupation with my looks, instead focusing on my grit, determination, and ability to overcome obstacles—the kind of qualities that drive all athletes, regardless of gender.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2373091/kate-courtney-mountain-biking-gender-equality?fbclid=IwAR1IHTk5YPRCjXZrcNkQhWVafhlUdQnRRpRiPEQ0LtYvTH8N7pyhdPaUTw4
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 21, 2018 - 09:36am PT
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The challenge Kate Courtney faces per "gender equality" is a tricky business from both a male and female perspective. For starters, Kate is not merely "cute." She's stunning, a plain fact that she and her sponsors have capitalized on per how she is marketed in social media. She could pedal her bike down the face of Half Dome and it wouldn't change her looks nor yet the fact that both men and women find her physically attractive. The rub is that she's also a champion adventure athlete and wants to be celebrated as a champion first and foremost. Which is only fair. And also true. She IS a champion.
The challenge is to come up with some constructive suggestions on how males might expand their focus, learning to emphasize her skill above and beyond her looks. A strategy that is doomed to fail is to try and shame males who find her cute on Instagram, and in races as well, the implication being we should minimize or forget the cute factor and focus, instead, on the skill, at least once the race is on. This is unlikely to happen, for better or worse.
One can totally understand the disappointment of someone who has put in the work, won a championship and instead of being celebrated as a sports hero, is merely posited as "cute." This clearly demeans the performance aspect. How to change men's thinking in this regards is possible, but I'm not sure how. Shame and criticism is simply not an effective means of transformation. In fact you'll get push back most every time. My sense of it is till people can get past ranting about how others are behaving towards them - which is a first step in the process - not much will change.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 21, 2018 - 12:19pm PT
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No one's ever accused me of being "cute" LOL, but thanks for the notion, no matter how off base.
Point is, the initial outrage over injustices is what brings attention to a problem in the first instance. As the audience goes through varying stages of denial and deflection, the subject is dragged into the light and after enough people take a sober look at the truth, we start groping toward change. We can this at play in the Me-Too saga, of which this thread is a sideshow. Later, people rattle in fits and starts past the rancor and guff (often justified, at least to purge the outrage), and start looking at things differently. But none of this is fast.
Like most things, we all want to satisfy the impulse to immediately gratify the need for results. None are forthcoming, of course, but that's how we humans roll.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 21, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
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...till people can get past ranting about how others are behaving towards them - which is a first step in the process - not much will change.
Because that has just worked out so well for the last hundred or so years?
There was a time women were legally held in check and if they didn't come under the care of some man, their options were very - very - few. Even the Aunt Mabels who lived in some house on the squire's property were seen as a burden.
A woman was publicly shunned if she was divorced so few years ago I remember "those women." We weren't eve supposed to play with the children of "those women."
When we began working as a career choice, we smiled and pretended it was all just a joke, those fanny pinches and innuendos. Because if you put a foot down, you got punished.
Even TODAY, while I am spending tie in Quartzsite as a member of the gem and mineral club, I find myself simply "smiling" to much of the old male remarks, because it's just not worth the hassle of trying to explain why tugging my hair and joking about my worth as a female is inappropriate.
Ranting and shaming is probably actually going to be the catalyst that DOES bring about change. But only when men start shaming their friends for the behavior. Is it REALLY that hard to say "Dude, come on already." when the friend watches a woman's ass as she walks past and says "I'd sure like to tap that!"
Interesting juxtaposition - Maybe 8 years ago I stopped a guy from taking a clearly intoxicated woman down to the water where I work, about 10am. He said "You sure know how to ruin a guy's Friday night."
Looking back, I did the wrong thing. I should have yes gotten them to leave, but I should have called the police and reported what was happening. I don't know what happened to that woman after they left the property.
Anyway, when I told the story later, most men over the ago of about 50 cracked jokes similar to the "ruined things for him" remark, whereas the younger men said "Woah - you probably stopped a date rape. I'm glad you weren't hurt. Please, if something like this EVER happens again, call me. Here's my number. I will get my ass down here to help you deal with it, no matter what time of night it is."
Times they ARE achanging,but some are coming along kicking and screaming, and some just won't make it and will die off eventually.
So - how many of you guys with male children have had "the talk" with your sons, explaining what is inappropriate? What do those talks entail? Because it's NOT enough to explain to your daughters that THEY have to keep themselves safe. Teach your sons how to be a safe friend, for crying out loud.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 21, 2018 - 03:47pm PT
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The reality is that a lot of women are harassed, and sometimes physically abused. Even joking, this is not OK. To add to the mt biking example above the woman who just won the female world soccer player of the year was asked by the presenter if she would twerk dance for him right after he gave her the award. It's ridiculous. No way would a man be subjected to that sh#t.
That said, I do think it's a minority of men that do most of this. And that painting the entire male race with a "toxic masculinity" brush, or implying that whites are more guilty, doesn't help the cause.
But men, if you see this in other guys(i.e. the President) don't put up with it. Say something. If someone said something like this to my daughter, you had better believe that I would.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Dec 21, 2018 - 04:04pm PT
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No doubt there are too many men who are just bores...especially with too much booze.
Men noticing the looks and charms of femininity is hard wired into the species.
I've always loved smart and strong women...understanding that real strength is between the ears.
On respecting women for their accomplishments, I think it starts with how one's father treats one's mother...and also the respect that a good mother commands.
A well developed sense of humor from all involved is helpful.
For the ladies I would ask: Are there any examples of toxic femininity?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 21, 2018 - 04:04pm PT
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Ranting and shaming is probably actually going to be the catalyst that DOES bring about change.
I stick by my guns that shaming is not a constructive way to bring about change. In most cases I have seen, it is a kind of returning-the-favor impulse, and that usually brings about pushback and resistance. Again, sounding off about something is a fist step that brings attention to flashpoint issues. The louder people sound off, the more our ears perk up. So as an initial step, sure - rant on. But in my experience, a sea change only happens when people understand and believe in a better way of doing and thinking.
For example, I often see people rigging suspect anchors out at the crags, or doing sketchy things. And this in some cases is life and death, so it's no simple matter. Suggestions are welcome if I am civil, as opposed to calling a person a knucklehead and ranting about this or that. That is, a personal attack on the person, rather than the issue at hand, is less constructive regarding having the person rig a safer whatever it is.
With feminist issues, owing I believe to the degree and time of abusive and destructive behavior, most of the issues are packed with emotional dynamite. My contention is that often, the whole shebang has to blow up before we can start putting the pieces back together in a more enlightened way. That's never going to be pretty, any more than the abuse was pretty. It's just a matter of how long we want to stay ugly with the whole shebang.
Per labels like men and women, I know a lot of females who like being called girls rather then women, providing the context is friendly and respectful. Girls, perhaps, carry a feeling of youth, not kids. But tastes differ in this regards, and if there is a uniform way or universal "best label," I haven't head it yet. Context is everything. You wouldn't call a woman on CNN a "girl," for obvious reasons. As much as we'd like a one-size-fits-all solution to these complex issues, we aren't likely to find one that suits everyone.
Perhaps it boils down to the issue of a personal attack. Once that gets going as an MO, the response is often a counter attack, and round and round we go.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 21, 2018 - 04:17pm PT
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Happie also brought this issue to the fore:
It's pretty standard, when someone mentions ST as a resource, that it's suggested, if female, to use an avatar that is non-specific to a gender, and to give no indication that you are female. I have heard people say this dozens of times.
There are women here, FWIW. You just may not realize it, or they may choose not to post. It's just not worth the hassle that comes from being a voice here, for the majority of women.
I have no doubt about any of this. And yes I understand this tactic. But clearly this is not ideal. In my opinion, we'd all be much better off if women's voices were heard here, as in other places, and readily identified as those of women. Do we really want women hiding behind cloaks?
I don't know what the way forward is, but just the opposite from staying in hiding needs to happen. Women need to proclaim themselves as women, and present their perspectives and their input as women, not as genderless, gender-neutral avatars.
Please correct me if I'm wrong in this assertion: Supertopo is essentially ground zero for trad climbing on the Internet. There are women doing fantastic, inspirational things as trad climbers and in the mountains these days, and it's no wonder we rarely hear from them here. I applaud those women who do occasionally step forward, stick their necks into Supertopo, and share what they are up to, whether by representation of thought or action.
Yes, I understand the risks and I understand avoidance of public expression. But until that starts happening, as long as so many women feel they need to hide in the dark when expressing their opinions on a public forum such as this, or choose to avoid it altogether, we are literally still in the dark ages.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 21, 2018 - 04:39pm PT
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Very little, until Erin Monahan made it so.
Whether intentionally or by default, she trolled us, and now we are choosing to make a meaningful discussion out of it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 21, 2018 - 05:07pm PT
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What Roy is saying. No question this is basically a straight, white, aging male audience, few of which, I reckon, would not applaud female intervention to liven and expand the dialogue. I suspect the fear of being shamed and chided keep many anonymous. Who needs the guff? But it does show us what a closed loop looks like. The question is: How do we change it? What proactive steps might be taken to diversify the platform?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 21, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
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I don’t know. Rant away with the blame and shame and you can attract a lot of controversy and attention and open up a dialogue. But as mentioned that’s going to turn off a lot of people who may want to help or change.
Alex put himself out there revealing his short comings and it made it a better movie. He could have just said let’s only make it about climbing and it wouldn’t have been nearly as powerful. I think it’s a cheap shot to attack someone so personally who is putting themselves out there. The movie portrayed many months in the development of their relationship, Alex’s development as a person, and Sannis development as a climber and I guess some people don’t realize that. Of course Alex telling Sanni he loved her as he hiked of El Cap was the climax of that story. For someone who never said I love you that’s huge. But it was done pretty low key and could have slipped past some people.
I have had the talk with my two sons multiple times about respecting and appreciating women and it’s been interesting. I would think their environment (strong mother and grandmothers) would have led them to be aware and respectful. But society has definitely had some bad influences on them. I’m not perfect but definitely think men and women are equals overall, men are typically better at some things and women are typically better at some things.
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Trump
climber
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Dec 21, 2018 - 09:30pm PT
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It’s not like ranting and shaming helped me win the presidency. Oh wait, it is like that. That’s a bummer, innit?
I think when we think that we’ve figured this human thing out, we probably should figure some more. I admire that we try, nonetheless.
Thanks for those stats Tarbuster. 1 in 4 girls. That sh#t is crazy. And African American girls like my daughter are at twice the risk.
I go help out a few hours a week in her elementary school classroom, and look around, and count the kids, and think WTF? Seriously? It’s hard to face. And I expect it’s even harder to live with.
But the kids in our privileged comfy classroom probably aren’t the ones that end up in those stats, so really, how big of a problem is it? For me?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 22, 2018 - 09:17am PT
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It’s not like ranting and shaming helped me win the presidency. Oh wait, it is like that.
---
No one's saying that ranting and shaming never leads to action. It did, in large part, win Trump the presidency.
The question, of course, is: Was electing Trump the correct action? That is, did that action lead to a solution or course-correction that in turn, led to greater understanding and a positive sea change in the way things and people are?
Seems debatable, at the very least.
Note how people hold onto their right to rant. Fair enough. But decisions and actions drawn from ranting itself are often disastrous. We can easily see why.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 22, 2018 - 10:51am PT
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You guys just made some good points.
Regardless, (heck, probably in support of your points) I feel the need to once again channel our fallen comrade, BVB.
One of the more whimsical and dead-on musings of his:
If anyone finds that language offensive & inappropriate, such that they might complain to the moderators, please first say so here, and I will kindly remove it.
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Spencer Lennard
Trad climber
Williams, Oregon
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Dec 22, 2018 - 11:50am PT
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Fantastic analysis of toxic masculinity and adventure sports....and patriarchy in our culture
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 22, 2018 - 03:54pm PT
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I stick by my guns that shaming is not a constructive way to bring about change.
Agreed. Shaming just fans the flames. Men and women have a symbiotic relationship. Its a truism that they need to get along. The analogy to US politics is striking...
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Trump
climber
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Dec 22, 2018 - 04:29pm PT
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But decisions and actions drawn from ranting itself are often disastrous. We can easily see why. Sure. Maybe the evolution of humans was disastrous too, in retrospect, after humans are gone. And I expect that’ll be easy to see why in a hypothetical future that we create in our minds. Still, I’m not inclined to go off myself just yet.
The stuff we see doesn’t always seem to end up being true, and I’m not sure that the ease with which we see it is really evidence of its truth, much as we might have evolved to see it that way.
We gather information and make analyses and form understandings, but the way we do it, and the results that we get, are always biased by who and what we are, individually, tribally, species-ly. We evolved to our position of success because of our excellence in behaving in ways that have promoted survival of the fittest - ME! - and the way that we form beliefs is a yuuuge! element in our success in doing that.
And we can try as hard as we want or as hard as we think is “good” for us to transcend that connection between our own self-interest - our own belief behaviors that have evolved to support survival of the fittest -ME! and the way that we form advantageous beliefs, and try instead to form beliefs that are true, but try as we might, or believe as much as we believe that we have successfully transcended our evolved tendency to form beliefs that work in our self-interest, rather than beliefs that are true, we probably always fall short.
So when other people have different strongly held analyses and understandings, maybe expressed as rants, that’s extra information that we can use to broaden our own understanding, to the extent that we’re able to try to understand and incorporate it, as opposed to just trying to deny and disprove it to ourselves in defense of our own need to see our own pre-existing self-biased beliefs as being true.
Try as we might to change the way we work to be agents acting purely for a global good, rather than intelligent agents acting towards our own self-interested survival, that’s not how we’ve evolved to work. And we might find, if we ever lose our tendency to act towards our own survival by biasing our beliefs towards ourselves, that we’ve lost something that was essential to, and was contributing to, our survival.
But still, I like it that it seems like we try so hard any way to understand and believe what’s true, rather than just what’s in our self interest to believe. Often, but not always, the most advantageous thing to believe is the truth.
And things aren’t true because we say they’re true, or because of the way we say them - they’re true because they’re true. And there’s some truth to be learned from someone feeling the need to rant, even if it’s a truth that comfy ole me might not quite see. Yet.
And to the extent to which we allow ourselves and our beliefs to be biased, in either direction, by the emotionality of the presentation of some information, or our individual interpersonal relationship with the person presenting the information, or our tribal affiliation with them, or the consequences for ourselves if what they’re saying is true - however we react to that, that’s on us. We do those things because doing those things works to our advantage.
So to Erin, and all, thanks!
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 22, 2018 - 04:44pm PT
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Shaming just fans the flames.
"What were you THINKING?" - shaming a young woman for going to a party by herself and having to fend off the "nice guy who offered her a ride home."
"What did you expect to happen, wearing a low cut blouse?" - shaming a woman who is complaining abut the cat calls she endured walking from the office to the local restaurant for lunch with friends.
"If you're going to behave so competitively, you won't have any friends." - shaming a middle school girl who wonders why some of the kids in her class made fun of the presentation she made which she'd worked very hard on and which was on a much higher level that most ones made by the other students.
"You'll never marry a good man if you/if you don't(insert just about anything a young woman is doing/not doing). - shaming a female for not subordinating herself to be appealing.
"Sounds to me like she can't get a date." - Shaming a woman for writing an article that expresses opinions people find unsettling.
Maybe if it weren't for all the shaming, there wouldn't be a need for all the ranting! The flames have been fanned for a long time.... and yeah - shaming doesn't really work so well after all, now does it.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 22, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
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ranting and shaming
People tried this with homosexuality and obesity. How did that work?
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Rankin
Social climber
Winston-Salem, North Carolina
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Dec 22, 2018 - 05:01pm PT
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This piece is postmodern drivel that went stale over two decades ago but still clouds university departments like an old fart. If the author is attempting to be as verbose and adolescent as Derrida she has succeeded. But let me refute her entire piece in four words: intention in speech matters. That's it folks. Don't waste your time or breath with someone who is not interested in rational discourse.
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 22, 2018 - 05:03pm PT
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and yeah - shaming doesn't really work so well after all, now does it.
We're in total agreement...
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Pete_N
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 22, 2018 - 10:29pm PT
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Hey Happiegrrrl2...thanks for contributing to this thread. And thanks ST for having a pretty good conversation on a challenging topic!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 23, 2018 - 06:20am PT
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Dumbcunt.omg
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2018 - 09:38am PT
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Vitaliy, you make the clear point that the author of the article has some very real points to gripe about.
You make it clear that her opinion is worthless, because she is a woman, and a lesser sexual being. Quite a message in a short package.
Of course, I don't know why we should care what an unAmerican thinks, anyway.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 23, 2018 - 09:45am PT
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The stuff we see doesn’t always seem to end up being true, and I’m not sure that the ease with which we see it is really evidence of its truth, much as we might have evolved to see it that way.
Seeing and believing are often both wrong---Robert McNamara
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 23, 2018 - 11:16am PT
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I have too much toxic masculinity in me.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 24, 2018 - 05:37am PT
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Thanks to Happie, Tarbuster, and Largo for your thoughtful posts.
This far into the thread just a few short comments. I personally enjoyed the read, found the blog post thought provoking, and consider most of the analysis to be on the mark. If some of you thought the tone of the author's writing to be a bit over the top, isn't that the norm for a blog post of this type?
I also thought the part about the warrior image/mentality was particularly interesting and poignant, along with the notion of feeling useless or participating in what amounts to a useless activity. Terray hit it on the nose with his title, "Les Conquérants de l'Inutile" (Conquistadors of the Useless). While I personally find climbing fulfilling in several ways, I harbor no illusions about its worth to society. I mean hey, c'mon, we ain't curing cancer.
For those on this thread who took offense or at least felt, for whatever reason, personally targeted, your level of anger is ironically equal to the level of anger you perceive the author of the article to be expressing. In simple terms, it's pretty clear a lot of projecting is going on. Your posts also read as if you either failed to realize or simply glossed over the fact that she includes herself as being part of the problem.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 24, 2018 - 06:46am PT
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Largo wrote:
The challenge Kate Courtney faces per "gender equality" is a tricky business from both a male and female perspective. For starters, Kate is not merely "cute." She's stunning, a plain fact that she and her sponsors have capitalized on per how she is marketed in social media.
Good looking male athletes are marketed this way as well. In history class we're taught that the original Olympics in ancient Greece were a tribute to the human form. I don't think we can or should try to escape the fact that athletes - professional and amateur - are often attractive people. We shouldn't deny the fact that we find them attractive.
However, said attractiveness should not be their defining characteristic relative to the athletic accomplishment. As Kate's quote alludes to and as we have all probably witnessed, when a male athlete performs well in a given sport, commentators and fans alike usually talk about his talent, strength, courage, training, etc., long before how good looking or attractive he may be, if his attractiveness is ever mentioned.
Largo wrote:
The challenge is to come up with some constructive suggestions on how males might expand their focus, learning to emphasize her skill above and beyond her looks. A strategy that is doomed to fail is to try and shame males who find her cute on Instagram, and in races as well, the implication being we should minimize or forget the cute factor and focus, instead, on the skill, at least once the race is on. This is unlikely to happen, for better or worse.
Good point. For lack of time, brain cells, or a better phrase, all I can think of is the broader notion of "manners," "common courtesy/decency," and "professionalism." I work in an office environment and an industry with a lot of young and attractive people (I may or may not be one of them). As a guy, when I encounter a woman in a professional situation, her attractiveness is completely irrelevant in the context of a stellar presentation or project result, the furthest thing from my mind is commenting on her looks.
Could this apply to a spectator / athlete situation?
Most adults in some way, shape, or form have learned to act professionally and to differentiate between professional and personal situations.
As you write, shaming won't work to really change a person's approach or mentality.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 25, 2018 - 03:41am PT
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Kevin Corrigan nails it! So to speak...
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Dec 25, 2018 - 08:19am PT
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Nails his dick to the floor, used to be the writers at climbing magazine at least had thumbs.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 25, 2018 - 08:46am PT
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LOL ......
Again .... A guy goes climbing without a rope and everyone with no life loses it and goes ape sh!t over it ......
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 25, 2018 - 10:45am PT
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What a load of self indulgent crap. You have to be a white American to complain like she does.
A lot of us old farts knew Lucy and Virginia Parker, who were natives living in the valley. Virginia has passed away, but Lucy is probably still there, and is Lonnie’s mother.
They both liked climbers. An activity like climbing has absolutely no meaning. It neither gives or takes anything from others. The writer attaches too much meaning to acts which have no meaning in her sense.
“Toxic Masculinity”?
Does she want us to hand in our testes?
Soloing has always brought out the Elmer Gantries. It is also meaningless. A private act. Nobody can say why people do it. I used to solo all of the time. Nobody cared, and it has been all forgotten.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 25, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
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Werner was correct. This was just one climb, and people draw all sorts of crazy conclusions.
Let’s all start a men’s only club to celebrate our gonads.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 25, 2018 - 01:45pm PT
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As a toxic, white male, I'll say there has been some interesting junk on this thread, so that makes the OP linked article worthwhile, although I think Rankin nailed it re. the source and nature of modern, toxic universities. I think it's VERY important to acknowledge the skill and achievement of all athletes first. But let's face it, amongst ourselves, men and women will frequently comment on the relative "hotness" of the opposite sex. We can do it in a reasonable and unreasonable way, and context matters. I don't think such comments should always be forbidden. We all like it when people acknowledge that we look good, yes? And here's an interesting twist. While probably not universal, I've heard often enough from older women that they really miss the occasional whistle or random comment on their looks, and it's a strange moment when you realize that, well, younger women/men just don't "see" you anymore, so there's a good chance that attractive, high-performing mountain biker will long for the days when some guy on the side of the trail says, "You're pretty!" Personally, I can't say I've ever had the pleasure of such a comment, regardless of how gorgeous I may actually be. Have you seen the ripped rodent arms on my avatar? I'm yoked, bro.
BAd
Edit: @Antichrist: Well played.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Dec 25, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
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Soloing has always brought out the Elmer Gantries. It is also meaningless. A private act. Nobody can say why people do it. I used to solo all of the time. Nobody cared, and it has been all forgotten.
Absolutely. I can't think of a more perfect example of a private act that is soon to be forgotten than a movie of Alex free soloing ElCap.
And it's pretty clear nobody cares about it.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 25, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
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Moose are you sure they didn't say
Nice, ass!
See what i did there?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 26, 2018 - 10:11am PT
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Nice one, Moosey.
Just recalled my toxic masculinity flaring. My wife and I were doing a little 3 pitch 5.9 sport rig at Red Rocks a few months ago, and a young couple of women were on the route as we got down. The belayer yelled up to her partner leading and said: "Nice ass!" I chimed in with a hearty agreement. Everyone laughed. They continued up their climb. No one was offended, and the world continued to rotate appropriately. What's wrong with this picture?
BAd
BAd
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 26, 2018 - 10:36am PT
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A very hot female exuding her sexual radiance, femininity and confidence, walking toward me with her man arm and arm with her, and beaming a huge smile and locking eyes with me really made my day. I almost got a woody before turning my eyes away---feeling embarrassed. Thank you Lord, I guess I am still alive after all. Me withered, old, crusty of a shell of a once youthful vibrating wave functioning form. This young vibrant goddess, strong in her person, not ashamed, nor sex shaming old geezer me. LOL It was a good day to feel alive once again!
Edit: locking eyes, feel alive
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jstan
climber
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Dec 26, 2018 - 05:06pm PT
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_F._Parker
Wiki seems to indicate Julia Parker is still there. A few years ago she gave the invocation at Facelift. Many generations of people who all appreciated Yosemite were thus joined.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 27, 2018 - 08:08am PT
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Toxic masculinity, no doubt.
Erin should perhaps instead consort with hobbits and elves!
Gandalf:
It is in men we must place our hope.
Elrond:
Men? Men are weak! The race of men is failing … It is because of men the rings survives! … I was there the day the strength of men failed … There is no strength left in the world of men. They're scattered, divided, leaderless.
The strength of men, Lord of the Rings
@1:56:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
.......................................................................
Ultimately, it's not just about the failings of men, but it's about humanity.
Warning: the language below drifts at two or three points beyond the family-hour compliance to which this forum currently subscribes. If anyone is offended, rather than complaining to the moderators, please contact me here and I will take down this post, in order to keep this thread afloat. Thank you.
Margaret:
So I was taught that I should come to New York, become an independent woman. And my Prince would come, and he would be: an agent. And he would get me a role and I would make my living waiting on tables. And I would wait, till 30, till 40, till 50. And I was taught that to be an actress, one should be fashionable. And to be fashionable, is to be androgynous. And I am androgynous not less than David Bowie himself. And they call me beautiful. And I kill with my c#&%. Isn't it fashionable? Come on, who's next? I'll take lessons. How to get into show business. Be nice to your professor. Be nice to your agent. Be nice to your audience. Be nice. How to be a woman? Want them when I want you. Or how to be free and equal. F*#k women instead of men – and you'll discover a whole kingdom of freedom. Men won't step on you anymore. WOMEN WILL. So come on, who's next. Who wants to teach me. Come on, teach me!
Margaret's blacklight monologue, Liquid Sky
@2:00:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
....................................................................
Ha ha. Liquid Sky is the name of a route I established in the Needles of California with Mike Lechlinski, and also an excellent line on North Six Shooter, Indian Creek, done by Chip Chace and Jeff Achey. There are a few others, including one at Cathedral Ledge done by Jim Surette.
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 27, 2018 - 01:37pm PT
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Liquid Sky is the name of a route I established in the Needles of California
Liquid Sky. Beautiful name, beautiful line...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 27, 2018 - 01:44pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Oh, let the sun beat down upon my face
And stars fill my dream
I'm a traveler of both time and space
To be where I have been
To sit with elders of the gentle race
This world has seldom seen
They talk of days for which they sit and wait
All will be revealed
Talk in song from tongues of lilting grace
Sounds caress my ear
And not a word I heard could I relate
The story was quite clear
Oh, baby, I been blind
Oh, yeah, mama, there ain't no denyin'
Oh, ooh yes, I been blind
Mama, mama, ain't no denyin', no denyin'
All I see turns to brown
As the sun burns the ground
And my eyes fill with sand
As I scan this wasted land
Try to find, try to find the way I feel
Oh, pilot of the storm who leaves no trace
Like sorts inside a dream
Leave the path that led me to that place
Yellow desert stream
Like Shangri-la beneath the summer moon
I will return again
As the dust that floats finds you
We're moving through Kashmir
Oh, father of the four winds fill my sails
Cross the sea of years
With no provision but an open face
Along the straits of fear
Oh, when I want, when I'm on my way, yeah
And my feet wear my fickle way to stay
Ooh, yeah yeah, oh, yeah yeah,
But I'm down oh, yeah yeah, oh, yeah
Yeah, but I'm down, so down
Ooh, my baby, oh, my baby
Let me take you there
Come on, oh let me take you there
Let me take you there...
Kashmir Led Zeppelin..
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 27, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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You guys are killing me with that racket! Yo!
Dammit, now the next-door neighbor's dogs are barking, and I swear I just heard some trash cans fall over …
And I ain't talking about Marlow's stupendous (⚡) Zep cover!
That hipster evangelizing Leary, Watts, Ginsberg & Snyder stuff is deafening! Ha!
And isn't it spelled UTAW?
... or is that just some chalky sidewalk meme, leftover from the 90s.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 28, 2018 - 07:11am PT
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Now we just need to know if those urinal fixtures are installed in the lavatory of a Zaha Hadid design. (Or maybe we don't.)
And speaking of stupendous, the organic design sensibility expressed in the Hadid buildings is really something to appreciate!
.........................................................
And then this, speaking of something tangential, organicity, from AntiChrist's link just above:
Timothy Leary:
These are the old, menopausal minds. (I omitted context for maximum on-topic comic effect.)
Alan Watts:
And what we need to realize is that there can be, shall we say, a movement… a stirring among people… which can be ORGANICALLY designed instead of POLITICALLY designed. It has no boss. Yet all parts recognize each other in the same way as the cells of the body all cooperate together.
And then THIS:
Snyder:
Yes, it’s a new social structure. It’s a new social structure which follows certain kinds of historically known tribal models.
Leary:
Exactly, yeah! My historical reading of the situation is that these great, monolithic empires that developed in history: Rome, Turkey and so forth… always break down when enough people, and it’s always the young, the creative, and the minority groups drop out and go back to a tribal form.
Whoa! If these guys were on to something, we climbers, being tribal dropouts, might just take over one day, and correct some of these toxic, patriarchal structures! (God help us, everyone.)
Here's the rest of the conversation, BTW:
https://terebess.hu/english/watts6.html
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2018 - 08:13am PT
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Moron ^^^
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 28, 2018 - 08:34am PT
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Now you've gone and done it---Delete.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 28, 2018 - 09:54am PT
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Yeah, Liquid Sky is very art-house weird, and quite funny – occasionally brutal and decadent throughout.
But I'm telling you, that Margaret monologue (Anne Carlisle) is really something else and pretty darned pertinent to this thread, if you choose to interpret it accordingly.
Especially if you listen to the whole 4 1/2 minutes as excerpted above (if not the whole movie). She says she's from Connecticut, Mayflower stock. And all that stuff about being androgynous and switching from men to women, yet still being walked on, that sh#t is priceless!
And everything she's doing, from unhooking all of the neon lights, to applying her warpaint, all while delivering the monologue, that's not easy for an actor to do, not at all. Delivering lines is one thing, but doing it while manipulating things physically with the hands ups the performance demand considerably.
Heck, I think her delivery of the monologue is a tour de force and it easily rivals Kenneth Branagh's powerful delivery of Eve of Saint Crispin's Day, in Henry V!
(Though for completely different reasons.)
Kenneth Branagh Henry V Saint Crispin's Day
Liquid Sky Full Movie (heads up: graphic depictions of violence, drugs, foul language, sexual conduct, rape)
Anne Carlisle (born 1956) is an American actress, performance artist, acting teacher, author, and model.[1]
She is known for co-writing and playing both the lead female and male counterpart roles in the film Liquid Sky. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Carlisle
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 28, 2018 - 04:03pm PT
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Gotta be so. Think Jack Kerouac and the Beat Generation. Including those four guys we were talking about on the previous page.
Bohemian culture. I mentioned that to Wayne Goss a while back and he heartily agreed.
Joe Fitschen covers it pretty well in his book, Going Up.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 28, 2018 - 06:02pm PT
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Far out!
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DanaB
climber
CO
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Dec 28, 2018 - 08:25pm PT
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Daddy-o.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 29, 2018 - 01:02am PT
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WBraun wrote:
LOL ......
Again .... A guy goes climbing without a rope and everyone with no life loses it and goes ape sh!t over it ......
Are you saying that those who went to see the movie have no life?
As far as the blog post (and subsequent thread), the solo and documentary were simply a pretext for the author to write about her target topic (but you already knew that).
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 29, 2018 - 01:13am PT
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Moosedrool wrote:
I don’t like crude remarks, for sure, but noticing a woman because she pleases your eye shouldn’t be threaded like an offense. (Again, doing it tastefuly).
Where in the blog post does the author write that a man finding a woman attractive is an offense? Where does any feminist, #metoo, etc., text or argument indicated that it is offensive for men to find women attractive?
Even with regard to Kate Courtney, she doesn't express disappointment (or offense) about men finding her attractive, but rather of being reduced to simply looks after winning a race.
You seem to take the Toxic Masculinity blog post personally - why is that?
For me, I took no offense (do feel no need to get defensive) and appreciate the opportunity to view the world from the author's perspective.
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Robb
Social climber
Cat Box
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Dec 29, 2018 - 09:34am PT
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".....and appreciate the opportunity to view the world from the author's perspective."
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 29, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
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Moosedrool wrote:
Nothing personal, Degaine.
Your post illustrates well my point how some people can get offended by a non-issue.
I just wanted to have a discussion, but got attacked instead.
Why?
Moose
Perhaps both our posts illustrate the limits of the 2D nature of the internet, and how tone (or lack thereof) in a written medium can be misinterpreted. Sometimes tone is pretty obvious, and other times not so easy to catch and what we perceive as being negative (or an attack) might simply be in our heads.
I no way, shape, or form was I offended by your post, and my intent was certainly not to attack. Just having a discussion, as you put it.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Dec 29, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
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The real epitome is when a thread about an epidemic of toxic masculinity gets the masculine spray-down.
Solid work, Men.
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Chris Cunningham
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Dec 30, 2018 - 11:41am PT
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I read enough of this man-hating BS.
Sugar-n-Spice...everything nice?
Misandry...Google it, bitch.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 30, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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Robb, a photo of the possessed lady masturbating with a cross from the Exercist? Just a guess.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Love women with a healthy sense of humor.
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WBraun
climber
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but you still do ...
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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I've had two beers and a little of this weak pink wine the neighbor gave my wife, but am I the only one that wants to hear more anecdotes about old guys getting boners because they walked past a hot young girl on a trail?
Finally some grist for my mill. Ironically, grist (ropemaking) A given size of rope, common grist being a rope three inches in circumference, with twenty yarns in each of the three strands to hang myself with.
Now then, ahem, I still want JL to interview Erin, or me. I have a movie plot I would give him just to see it hit the screen. I suspect my idea isn't novel given ambient collective unconsciousness.
TB thanks for the Going Up suggested reading. Personally I find anecdotal stories surrounding the climbing to be more interesting than, the climb.
Am I guilty of being toxic? Well I certainly felt poisoned by testosterone, and societies stigma of being a lone male. Hence, pressure to find a female instead of just being my unappropriated self and taking care of 'it' myself.
Is this really just a toxic spray down blow back thread or is it balanced reporting? BTW, balanced televised reporting was struck down awhile ago, no longer required by law. LOL.
Appropriated. Shat. We have all been appropriated by our instincts, dna, epigenics, natural environment, societal influences, parents, et al.
I'm just a bundle of made up beliefs and instincts. Can you see the real me? I can't.
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Blakey
Trad climber
Sierra Vista
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Jeez they ain't wearin shoes - how can they do that!
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Somebody needs to show Erin that men can make great pussy-lickers too.
Maybe show her studious friends too?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Just remember that every time you attack Erin in terms of her gender, her sexuality, or her activism, you provide evidence that she is correct.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Meh.
Nice try.
She disses her BF who can’t make her come on her
social media.
Double edged sword that will not cut both ways.
Lynne may have been on to something
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edn26
climber
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She now has posts on Instagram seeking to compare Alex saying 'It's no big deal' to Brett Kavanaugh and Louis C.K dismissing sexual misconduct accusations. This all seems very weird to me. The very baseline of like 'be aware of your privilege' or even 'Honnold could have been nicer to his GF' (he's said as much repeatedly) seems fair, but the jump to making Honnold some representation of male domination run amok seems very weird and slightly unhinged.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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And some of these guys still wonder why women, for the most part, don't participate in this forum.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Hey Nita,
Well, I'm no daisy either ;-)
The boy scout picture I posted alludes to a correlation that I found humor in.
The NPR story on sexual predators is not humorous. The churches, colleges, public schools, TV newsrooms, Hollywood institutions, political organizations, big business and meat rack taverns across America also seem to be infested with sexual predators.
(If college statistics on campus rape rates are not inflated, or conflated by definition, college campuses are the most dangerous place in America for women).
Happie,
The nuances of humor are lost on texting forums, and are amplified by sex differences. I don't post anything here to put down any individuals on ST, and try to engage with intellectual honesty when questioned, because I respect climbers and this forum.
I will reiterate that the way men treat women starts at a young age. How does one's father treat one's mother, and how much respect does one's mother command. IOW, a strong and loving family is key, and a sense of humor doesn't hurt.
Edit: My wife and my sister laughed at the boy scout pic, but they know me.
IMHO, the bottom line of the article this thread is based on:
How dare Honnold not be a SJW for my favorite cause/s.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Yeah, some people thought images suggesting Michelle Obama was an ape were funny too. Or the "Woman with two black eyes" joke.
I don't see what is humorous in suggesting it was being inclusive of females that had the Scouts considering bankruptcy.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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I ask them, what do you think constitutes a practical application? It’s very surprising. Roughly speaking, people converge within five to 10 minutes onto two categories of practical applications. One is, if you manage to make several million dollars instantly. The other is, if you manage to kill millions of people instantly. Many people are actually kind of shocked by their own answers.
Then I tell them that, well, I don’t know about other people, but I have a practical application for my toys. When I show my toys to some children, they seem to be happy. If that’s not a practical application, what is? ---Tadashi Tokieda
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Well, it is official now, a clinical analysis by the professionals
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/american-psychological-association-links-masculinity-ideology-homophobia-misogyny-n956416
The new “Guidelines for the Psychological Practice with Boys and Men” defines “masculinity ideology” as “a particular constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including: anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence.” The report also links this ideology to homophobia, bullying and sexual harassment. . . . . .
. . . “Men who benefit from their social power are also confined by system-level policies and practices as well as individual-level psychological resources necessary to maintain male privilege,” the guidelines state. “Thus, male privilege often comes with a cost in the form of adherence to sexist ideologies designed to maintain male power that also restrict men’s ability to function adaptively.”
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
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Any woman on Earth is free to step up and solo it.
We are waiting...
Until then it’s just more clucking from somebody who can’t do a thing, just disparage others who can. Her argument has zero merit.
All I see is toxic feminism and haters.
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WBraun
climber
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Best post of the whole thread .....^^^^
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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What the duck said.
BAd
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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"Best post of the whole thread."
And we WERE waiting, too...
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Zardoz, I believe Alex has spent far more time with a partner and a rope than he has free soloing.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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I walked out and asked for a refund.
Couldn't handle all the mysogyny.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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This is getting toxic!
Can we all just calm down a little?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I took Anita's post to be a joke. Am I wrong?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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There is a big delineation between those that actually do stuff, and them that just talk about it afterwards.
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Trump
climber
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We see lines with our minds wherever it suits us to see lines. If you imagine a line here, cool.
What some people do is climb. What some people do is think and say things. Some people do both. No doubt some folks are better than others at climbing, and some folks are better than others at thinking and saying. Folks don’t necessarily do either because they’re all they good at it, but often just because it’s what they’re drawn to do.
Seems like the thing that we all are doing is thinking and saying. If it’s not what we want to be doing, then don’t do it. If we want to disparage other folks for doing it, ok, then that’s what we’re doing. Folks get pretty good at that too.
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