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Jeffrey VanMiddlebrook
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 10, 2018 - 08:00am PT
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I've noticed that maybe half of the posts to ST have "zero" to do with climbing, so I'm going to take the liberty to vent about one of my pet peeves, and that is Elon Musk's bogus claim of "Zero Emissions" that one sees on the cardboard license plate frame inserts on brand new Teslas. There's no such thing as zero emissions because every process involved in manufacturing involves the use of fossil fuels. It takes more fossil fuels to make a Tesla than it takes to make a Hummer. In addition, almost every Tesla charging station gets its electricity from the burning of fossil fuels. Even if a Tesla owner has his/her own PV system at home dedicated to charging his/her Tesla, it takes a great amount of fossil fuels to manufacture, ship, and install PV systems, not to mention the fact that when the PV system is not collecting photons then the Tesla gets its power from the grid which is reliance once again on fossil fuels.
The entire EV hysteria is bogus. Fossil fuels will always be needed, and to believe we can eventually get to 100% reliance on alternative energy sources is pure anti-physics. Hell, you can't even make steel without coal. And yes, there's a process that uses electricity to reduce iron ore for steel production, but where will that electricity come from? Don't dare say PV because that ain't a-gonna happen. Hmm....maybe nuclear power? Ah but that is the bogey man to all Greenies.
You see the checkmate humanity has put itself into? If we were only a billion strong perhaps we could cut way back on fossil fuels, but at 7 billion-plus and counting that will NEVER happen.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 10, 2018 - 08:41am PT
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So what's your point? You don't like Teslas? You think that because they use fossil fuels in the manufacture and charging that people should drive SUVs instead? Or that we're all hosed so why bother?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2018 - 09:18am PT
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I'm not an Elon Musk fan, but his vision is to provide a fully solar infrastructure to fuel his EV fleet. He's manufacturing batteries and solar cells in an attempt to greatly reduce the emissions from our peculiar transportation needs. Eventually he will wean his endeavors off of fossil fuel generated electric power.
I agree that the expanding population is a problem that conventional technologies will not be able to keep up with. The Green Revolution is limited, leading to the expansion of farm lands displacing forests, and the rising temperature offset the "fertilizer" effect of more CO2 in the atmosphere, where half of the emissions go, the other half goes into the oceans where acidification could be the greatest threat.
For a personal response, the most impact you can have on climate change is to have one or fewer children... it is an order of magnitude more effective than any other mitigating activity you could do, and goes to your point.
It is also something that is a personal choice, and not one that government is ever going to be involved in successfully.
As for climbing content, Donini has to invite us all down the Patagonia so we can write about climbing in the summer, in the winter... California ice isn't always accessible, and when it is it's briefly accessible...
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Dec 10, 2018 - 10:49am PT
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Even if a Tesla owner has his/her own PV system at home dedicated to charging his/her Tesla, it takes a great amount of fossil fuels to manufacture, ship
Got it, so transportation and installation of infrastructure for alternative fuels is counted against them, but not so for conventional sources, seems fair.
Just out of curiousty, how many miles driven for that clean Hummer to catch up the dirty Tesla, assuming the Tesla is powered by solar(I know, a fantasy, no where gets that much sun, unless you’re talking about fantasies like Narnia or the American Southwest).
Edit: Good catch splater, no point arguing with a bot.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 10, 2018 - 11:00am PT
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How is more mining, smelting, and manufacturing green? It's just more consumerism being rebranded to feel good about itself. The resources are finite. Humanity, 8 billion and growing. Unfortunately, for everyone's grandchildren, the situation is going to get a whole lot uglier. All aboard the hell bound train. Mankind, just a vain Cosmic blip.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Dec 10, 2018 - 01:09pm PT
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all of the replies to this poster are a waste of time.
The kook poster is a serial troll bot.
- Mar 18, 2013 - 11:47am PT the kook posted:
Now I'm not an AGW hysteric as I know way too much hard science to buy into that nonsense
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 10, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
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Your entire rant misses the point of switching to renewable energy. Nobody claimed that the process was zero emission, that is your straw-man. Think greater efficiency with electric cars. Greater efficiency with roof top solar.
As for the statement that we can not reduce fossil fuel use dramatically is total nonsense. Without a lot of effort this country has reduced its consumption of fossil fuels. No reason the rest of the world can not follow our example (except under Trump)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183617/us-energy-consumption-from-fossil-fuels-since-1985/
Even if a Tesla owner has his/her own PV system at home dedicated to charging his/her Tesla, it takes a great amount of fossil fuels to manufacture, ship
Love that BS. Ignores the fact that to produce a gallon of gasoline requires the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline. See the lack of efficiency in that? To compound the absurdity, the gallon of gas will be burned in an internal combustion engine with a maximum efficiency of about 15%.
The solar panel will generate the amount of energy it took to make it in a matter of a few years. The lifespan is unknow, but they warranty them for 25-30 years.
Global warming denier, hahaha, good catch Splater
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SilverSnurfer
Mountain climber
SLC, UT.
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Dec 10, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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Interesting, here I was thinking that it was a fallacy simulator.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Dec 10, 2018 - 06:05pm PT
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Another oil stockholder gets to spew his opinions.
Where is the payback from Fossil Fuels?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Dec 10, 2018 - 06:49pm PT
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we have had an electric car (Leaf) for three years, powered (effectively) off the solar panels on the roof.
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John M
climber
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Dec 10, 2018 - 07:09pm PT
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50 years ago the air in LA was continually brown. Breathing was dangerous. Then came emission controls and things got better.
I look at it this way. Which would you rather be stuck in traffic with?
1. A bunch of trucks from the 60s belching black smoke.
2. a bunch of electric vehicles.
As was pointed out above, Sure the electric vehicles create emissions while being produced. But so does any vehicle that is produced. The only way to stop that is to stop producing any vehicles. That of course isn't going to happen.
So..
What counts is tail pipe emissions. Thats the difference.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 10, 2018 - 07:27pm PT
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Nothing will ever be "Zero Emissions or Impact"
An MIT study was looking at full cycle electric car impact. If the electricity came from coal electric cars had no environmental benefit compared to gasoline powered. Electricity from natural gas resulted in a positive impact compared to gasoline. Best was solar for power input.
Can anyone comment on how much pollution is (effectively) outsourced to China as a result of manufacturing solar cells?
PS I believe we will end up using natural gas as a bridge to nuclear, solar, wind, tides, etc.
Disclaimer: I find oil and gas for a living.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 10, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
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I'm not an Elon Musk fan, but his vision is to provide a fully solar infrastructure to fuel his EV fleet. He's manufacturing batteries and solar cells in an attempt to greatly reduce the emissions from our peculiar transportation needs.
As for climbing content, Donini has to invite us all down the Patagonia so we can write about climbing in the summer, in the winter... California ice isn't always accessible, and when it is it's briefly accessible...
So, will you be walking, pedaling, or paddling?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Dec 10, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
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The world has a long ways to go to get to fully sustainable.
But you got to start somewhere.
The world also needs to get better at reusing materials. Future generations are going to mine our landfills.
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dgbryan
Mountain climber
Hong Kong
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Dec 10, 2018 - 09:23pm PT
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Always a pleasure to read Ed Hartouni's erudite & measured posts (at least when I am able to keep up).
With regard to this - It is also something that is a personal choice, and not one that government is ever going to be involved in successfully - I give you China's (now abandoned) one-child policy.
Granted, a working definition of success might exclude brutally coercive methods, widespread evasion & associated corruption, a dangerously skewed sex-ratio & resultant social harm, & a demographic bulge that is likely to fuel inter-generational tensions. But I give them credit for recognising the(ir) problem & trying to do something about it.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 12:31am PT
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Walking across Darien might be problematic--but we could paddle. Also, the calories we would have to consume to fuel our walk would be bathed in oil from farm to market.
As for limiting birth rates at zero, well, the developed world is already there. In many places, negative replacement.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 07:48am PT
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Also, the calories we would have to consume to fuel our walk would be bathed in oil from farm to market.
not necessarily, eating locally grown foods in season certainly greatly reduces the total energy required to bring them to market. Vegetable rich diets would also reduce the energy required to produce the food.
As for limiting birth rates at zero, well, the developed world is already there. In many places, negative replacement.
it would seem a strategy might then be to help the "undeveloped world" develop... China seems to be doing this to great effect as a part of its foreign policy. On the economic front, one would then have to face the end to a consumer economy, essentially the end point of development when everyone has everything needed.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:45am PT
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China seems to be doing this to great effect as a part of its foreign policy.
Uh, not so fast there. Almost all the countries that China has ‘helped’ in recent years are now protesting the onerous loan rates that China is ‘willing to reconsider’ in exchange for military bases and long term access to natural resources at a pittance of their market value.
There’s no free lunch.
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A Essex
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:06am PT
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the most impact you can have on climate change is to have one or fewer children... it is an order of magnitude more effective than any other mitigating activity you could do,
Winner winner chicken dinner
unless you deck your loin spawn out in Pattagucci, then the effect is carbon neutral!
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:28am PT
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@Robert L say: I do feel inwardly happier since reducing my international travel to 1x trip to Chamonix or El Chalten every 4-years.
Very magnanimous sir. Very magnanimous indeed.
:rolleyes:
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:31am PT
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How does one have fewer than one child?
You don’t breed at all.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:33am PT
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it would seem a strategy might then be to help the "undeveloped world" develop... China seems to be doing this to great effect as a part of its foreign policy.
Sorry, Ed, but you lost me there. What happened to Chinese output of CO2 when China "developed" post-Mao?
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:42am PT
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I'm a Elon Musk fanboi here. My advice is to not get wrapped up in the marketing hype from a license plate frame. Your post, Jeffry, is spot on the money I'll agree, the US gets craploads of electricity from coal production to power those "green" cars. It will not always be so and moving to a better product in the future should be embraced. Musk has a better product. Like all new things (lets discuss the evolution of computer chip speed or the internet in the last 15 years as a corollary) it may not be perfect now, but like the internet of 15 years back with 2400 baud modem dial up speed or 386 Pentium chips - it's fairly good and will get better with time. Much much bettter.
Electrical Production -your roof
Electrical storage - your onsite battery.
Electrical useage - your car and house.
Good stuff. Coal sucks bad for many reasons, and we use shitloads of it. Less now, fortunately, mostly due to fracking. But we need alternative power. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/07/us-coal-consumption-to-hit-rock-bottom-lowest-level-in-39-years/
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:02am PT
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I was thinking that it was a fallacy simulator.
I was thinking that it was a phallacy stimulator.
This account is nothing but a troll. Look at post history. I hate to bump this lame thread, but come on.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:20am PT
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Their kids are on MY lawn ALL the time.
Okay, I've gotta ask: Do they poop on your lawn?
(Sorry, now I'm engaged with this lameness. Sigh.)
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:27am PT
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And you selfish bastards with 4 or 5 kids....
you're gonna have to give up a few.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:27am PT
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If yes, will you help me?
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. I feel incompetent for the job.
Moosegore!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 12:54pm PT
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Well, if nothing else, electric cars can help keep pollution from concentrating in cities.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 06:44pm PT
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China has one overseas military base...
The US has something like 37...
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Jeffrey VanMiddlebrook
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2018 - 07:34pm PT
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Very interesting the myriad responses to my OP. No, I'm not a troll bot, and no I do not work for any aspect of the fossil fuels industries. What I am is a fact-based realist. So, how many of y'all who took issue with my OP own an ICE car? Guess y'all own climbing ropes made from oil. Bet you don't know that 7 gallons of petroleum goes into every single car tire, even on Teslas.
The self-righteous hypocrisy is so thick that my chainsaw can't cut through it. And yes, I know all about the Gigafactory because one of my sons worked there.
As to Elon Musk, he's certainly an eclectic visionary, and I respect that as a prolific inventor myself, but "Zero Emissions" is an impossibility on Earth.
The PROBLEM is too many humans. The SOLUTION is Soylent Green!! As the late Euell Gibbons might have said, "Ever eat a human? Many parts are edible."
Next, and don't bore me.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 07:58pm PT
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Wow, you're a d#@&%e.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:51pm PT
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Either Jeffrey is a troll or dense as hell. I am going with the later. What is the weird obsession with the semantics? Does he really think anyone would be impressed by his observation?
What is next for Jeffrey, Payless Shoes? It should be shoes you do not have to pay for god dammit! If they wanted to advertise cheap shoes they should have said Pay Less.
And how about those Subway sandwich commercials, my sandwich never looks as good as the one in the commercial. Bait and switch I tell you.
Reminds me of the irate customers at the 99 Cents Only Store (large dollar store chain in CA) who demands to see the manager because they have items priced at more than 99 cents. It is usually an old fart (like me), and female, who filled her cart with 8 ounce packages of sliced cheddar cheese believing they were "99 cents only". Humiliated at the register, the aggrieved customer often announce that they are going to sue the store for false advertising. Everyone in line (there is always a line) gets annoyed because now the slow motion employee has to undo the offending items. Actually nothing is 99 cents in their store anymore, the minimum price is 99.9 cents, with lots of stuff at $1.99 or more.
99 Cents Only Stores have been sued in a class action lawsuit and won
https://www.mto.com/news/headlines/2015/99-cents-only-stores-obtains-dismissal-in-deceptive-advertising-class-action
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 11, 2018 - 09:46pm PT
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China has one overseas military base...
And one in-seas military base currently in production : )
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:22pm PT
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China has one overseas military base...
The US has something like 37...
That wasn't the question.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 12:05am PT
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Sorry, Ed, but you lost me there. What happened to Chinese output of CO2 when China "developed" post-Mao?
Reilly's question/statement.... you should follow a bit more closely.
coal is a very cheap source of energy, the US burned a lot since the 1940s and the current administration wants to burn more now, it seems nonsense to say current economic gains won't pale in the loses tomorrow, pay now or pay a lot more tomorrow.
difficult to leave cheap stuff in the ground,
and really bad to burn it and exhaust it into the atmosphere.
China is doing it, India, Poland, not good.
The US did a lot, also not good.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 13, 2018 - 12:20pm PT
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The OP seems to be s simple luddite. He does not believe in progress, and the incremental pace involved. It shows you what Edison, Marconi, and the Wright brothers faced.
I imagine that the OP's buggy whip factory seems threatened.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 14, 2018 - 05:13pm PT
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It used to be that kids had a dumb idea and before they could get it out there their mom would smack them upside the head for their stupidity and that would be the end of it. They would go to schoool and learn, never entertain the thought again. Now, those same thoughts make it onto the internet at the speed of thought, coalesce with others in a self-affirming mass of social media, and before mom can smack the stupid outta you, a protesting mass of idiots are telling each other that their thoughts are genius. Since everything on the internet is true, mom never has a chance and now people have to deal with the likes of this OP.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Dec 14, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
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That ^^^^^^is pretty damn good.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 15, 2018 - 07:20am PT
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I get the OP's point, however: The sanctimony is pretty damn annoying, especially since owning a Tesla means you're still consuming the hell out of buttloads of resources. The "Zero Emissions" label is virtue signaling of the first order. And tires are a huge and interesting problem. Another issue is that, green or not, cars themselves are a kind of pollution, like enormous beer cans littering the landscape. All that said, I admire EV's, and I suspect I'll one day own one, and the world will be a cleaner place if we could all drive them. The transition, I think, is going to be a long, drawn out affair.
BAd
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 15, 2018 - 08:01am PT
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Bad: I get the OP's point, . . . .
I do, too.
Buying any new car simply to be green strikes me as just plain stupid.
Fuji ships its pristine water all over the world. And people buy it. Shipping water!
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 15, 2018 - 09:03am PT
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The label Zero Emissions is not originally related to carbon reductions, rather was used in the late 1980s to refer to vehicles that potentially could radically reduce criteria emissions in urban air basins like LA. At the time we were talking primarily of zero tailpipe emissions, and looking for vehicles that could shift emissions away from where people lived, hence electric vehicles could move emissions to locations out of the air basin, and away from sidewalks, bedrooms, schools, neighborhoods, etc..
(I have worked in research in this topic for the University of California for 30 years- just retired)
The idea of Zero Emissions vehicles has been extended to carbon reductions in the past three decades, and all knowledgeable scientists in this arena realize no vehicle is emission free. It is a goal, and the Zero Emissions Vehicle program in California is a technical development program, not directly an emissions reduction program like the Low Emission Vehicle program, which regulates most vehicles.
Production emissions are on average about 10% of the full lifetime emissions of a car, but there is great variability and for example, BMW has been systematically removing all emissions from productions of its line of electric cars, developing and installing wind and solar power at the plants that produce the parts and do assembly.
The operation of electrics in most locations is not emissions free, for example in North Dakota a mile of driving in an electric is for the most part not much different than a combustion vehicle, but in California the operation of an electric is much lower in carbon, and as California continues to add solar and wind this gets better almost every year.
Some locations, such as Norway, the operations of electric vehicles per mile is near zero emissions, especially if driving an electric built by BMW.
Huge progress has been made in making combustion vehicles cleaner, and lower carbon, but reality is that the number of vehicles in the global fleet will double in the next 30 years from about 1 billion today to 2 billion. So even cutting the carbon in half for each vehicle will not be a solution. We need a mixture of zero and near zero emissions to meet climate and urban air quality goals for future generations. Electric drive is a big piece of that solution set along with clean electricity and production.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 15, 2018 - 09:08am PT
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China has one overseas military base...
And for thousands of years, they had exactly zero. Until very recently, China has always focused inward. Mongolians? F them. China built a wall. China has never felt the need to project their power outward.
Why the sudden change?
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SuperTopo on the Web
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decide to have one or fewer children
Let us know!