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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 19, 2018 - 10:28am PT
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Well actually "raking" might be difficult to do but I think Trump meant 'clean up your forest', just like you would do in your garden to keep it healthy.
It's practiced here in the Cascades...the debri is picked up and stacked into large piles. Then burned as a prescribed burn. Rural parks in town have their needles and pine cones picked up by cleaning crews...
Why do many think this is a bad idea and would not help to prevent massive forest fires?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:32am PT
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I think Trump meant 'clean up your forest', just like you would do in your garden to keep it healthy.
Of course, that's what he really meant.
I'm not a fan of Trump at all but can see how the st00pid media and all these nutcase politards here would love to have a field day with this bullsh!t as usual .....
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:35am PT
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:41am PT
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Please...is it too much to expect POTUS to be able to speak with more intelligence then a third grader so that internet forums don’t have to debate what he really meant?
Then again...is it too much to expect the general public to see thru Trump’s most blatant lies?
Evidently not...in both cases.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:46am PT
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Werner, are you suggesting that the media is involved in muckraking?
How !!absurd
--Ray King
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:50am PT
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Roots, it is practiced here in Ca. also. As you can see it works really well!
The forests managed to do just fine without our help for a few thousand years.
They have not done so well with all of our help.
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:51am PT
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:57am PT
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To the rescue!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:01am PT
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the debri is picked up and stacked into large piles. Then burned as a prescribed burn.
Actually that's slash and burn. Exactly what I did all weekend (all autumn) the reason I am sore today all over.
Prescribed burn is selecting a prescribed piece of land/forest and then burning it during the right conditions. Is generally good but controversial. I don't really want my neighbor doing it and losing control of the situation.
Arne
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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I blame the Rake Media.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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I bet "the" answer will be somewhere different. People managed meadows with fire. Trees were bigger. Not all areas were influenced by people.
Now, more development of forests. More buildings encroaching on second or third growth forests. Fire will have to be used differently, maybe the same, depending on the goals. Some changes take centuries, with increasing CO2 levels, there may not be that much time in some places.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:07am PT
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...the PrOTUS is mouthy, but not wordy...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:18am PT
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ionlyski
Debris is also stacked.
I would know this as I've done this work for Yosemite Fire for months.
It's hard azz work .....
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:26am PT
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It's hard azz work .....
You got that right:)
And the burning seasons are short so you never get enough done.
Yeah I know you start with a stack but you can't really build it up higher than you can throw it until you get it lit. Then feed it feed it feed it all day long till you come in for late dinner then put your boots back on and go out at night and keep raking it into the center so it burns up nicely.
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perswig
climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:32am PT
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Mooch, Rake Force! Hahaha!
Still chuckling.
Dale
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:32am PT
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The Miwok managed the valley pretty well BITD until whitey had a better idea.
And it costs how much to "rake" one acre?
Fun Facts
Over 43% of the total acres within the Sierra Nevada Region have a very high or extreme fire hazard rat-
ing. That would be how many million acres.
94% of the land slated for rural residential development in the Sierra Nevada is classified by CAL FIRE
as very high or extreme fire hazard.
http://www.sierranevada.ca.gov/docs/Fire%20and%20Forest%20Facts.pdf
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John M
climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:37am PT
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Wawona is a hairsbreadth away from a catastrophic fire if a wind event happens at the worst time. Wawona is heavily cleared all around it. It has had controlled burns done around 95 percent of it. And still.. during the last fire east of Wawona, with just medium winds the fire almost got into Wawona. Things are and were so dry that with slightly higher downslope winds coming from the East, they probably would have lost some homes.
I use to caretake 6 properties in Wawona. I know how much raking and clearing is done. Some places in Wawona still need work from my limited understanding, but its still better then a lot of towns, and yet it could still burn. Probably not as catastrophically as Paradise, because its a lot smaller, but it could still burn.
So what Trump said was ridiculous, especially comparing Norway, which is at 60 degrees latitude and California which is at 45 degrees.
His comment was also heartless considering he was belittling people who had just lost their homes. Forest service guys lost their homes. Fire fighters lost their homes.
The only area that I believe that clearing would have helped was along the major roads. Many counties up that way have wide through ways cleared around the highways. This way people would have had a safer way to escape. And even that would not have stopped all of the deaths because some of the deaths were caused by people not even having a vehicle to escape in because paradise was heavily populated by retired folks and they no longer owned autos or kept them gassed up.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2018 - 11:37am PT
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Roots, it is practiced here in Ca. also. As you can see it works really well!
The forests managed to do just fine without our help for a few thousand years.
Never noticed it being done in California and I lived there most of my life...guess I couldn't see it as I was under a rock : )
I believe that forest thousands of years ago, burned without being suppressed or managed. -not what residents want now.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:41am PT
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I believe that forest thousands of years ago, burned without being suppressed or managed. -not what residents want now
That is exactly right. Now we are in a predicament.
edit-and really, more like 150 years ago
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John M
climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:46am PT
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our national forest service fighting capability was born out of some of the largest fires in history before our forests were managed. Whole towns burned down many different times.
read up on the fire of 1910.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_1910
the 1871 fire was worse.
How do you stop drought, beetle kill, and wind?
that doesn't mean that things can't be done to mitigate these worst events. but its costly.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:56am PT
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Point is, with the saturation we have today, living out in the woods with our trophy homes and all the valuables, you can't really just let it burn. And it needs to burn.
I've got my party pad in the woods but if it burns I hope I won't spend all my time blaming the Forest Circus.
edit-these California cities that are burning down completely are different . Don't know what the answers are there.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 19, 2018 - 12:04pm PT
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Nov 19, 2018 - 12:17pm PT
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It here started in Ca. decades ago.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Nov 19, 2018 - 03:06pm PT
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Simplified summary: Couple thousand years with normal (meaning drier) California climate and tons of fires. Then about 100 wetter than normal years with extra plant growth and fire suppression.
California returns to normal precipitation (that people call a drought since it’s dry relative to the short history as a state) with the addition of approximately 10x more trees than normal, lots of dead fire fuel, and lots of houses mixed in with the tinder.
Not sure what the solution is but the problem is pretty simple.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 04:36pm PT
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It's possible to manage a forest, but impossible to manage the wind and other climatic phenomena.
--Mariah Mariah
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 04:54pm PT
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Well, it isn't done all over Finland. 80% of the country is forest. In the Arctic. Not exactly the same climate as California.
They do monitor the forests though.
https://twitter.com/anttiholma/status/1063907282973544448/photo/1
The Finns are having fun.
"You can tell your friend in the White House, that ALL finns rake thousands of hectares every day!"
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 05:16pm PT
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Hilarious stuff, Lollie.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
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Pretty lady with a rake, Mouse :-)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 19, 2018 - 07:19pm PT
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I believe that forest thousands of years ago, burned without being suppressed or managed. -not what residents want now.
the forest lands were in equilibrium with the seasonal fires ignited by natural sources. Thousands of years ago this was probably still human managed in the Sierra, at least in many places.
But the point is that our current forests are very much out of equilibrium, and humans are trying to keep the disequilibrium going. Initially (in the 1950s) it was to protect lumber resources, now it is to protect homes and buildings.
Driving in the western slopes of the Sierra it is difficult to see how humans will continue to keep the situation as it is.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 19, 2018 - 09:46pm PT
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Ed-couldn't agree more. What are we to do?
Everything burns. Log-it burns. Thin-it burns. Section of forest that burned significantly a year, two or ten years ago-it burns. Seems that old growth is sometimes spared and I often wonder if that's because old growth, especially on both sides of a stream contains more water.
Anyway, none of these types of management mimic what natural fires do. They just don't. I also wonder if the more thinning I do, the more that land dries out, is hotter, soil content and plant structure changes but doesn't really reduce my fire hazard.
Prescribed burning I think is good but very risky. Again, not to be confused with burning piles but lighting your whole forest on fire during "safe" conditions. But that does a much better job of mimicking what fires did, before fire mitigation of the 1900's. Think about how much undergrowth was regularly burned out, leaving larger, more fire resistant trees, like Ponderosa and Western Larch.
Arne
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 19, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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I've often said the real problem is people; more and more of them living out in the forest, spread out all over the place and that people really belong concentrated in cities because forests need to burn, in order to be what they are-forests.
But now with these fires you have in California that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Nov 20, 2018 - 07:22am PT
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Somewhere in the distant forests of Finland, the wild Roomba quietly does its important work clearing the undergrowth.
Thank you internet.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 26, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
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once an f'n idiot, always an f'n idiot
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Nov 26, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
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We rake by the ton in Tahoe as part of regular and prescribed Defensible Space and Tree work. Here come the hysterics
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 27, 2018 - 08:38am PT
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^^^^When two high profile fires on two sides of my land erupted this summer, the combined
agencies poured millions into them, creating all kinds of ineffective jobs, even though both fires
did not breach 1000 acres together. The biggest joke were the fire lines they punched through,
connecting roads that were 1 mile apart. You can't even walk those lines now due to all the slash
scattered everywhere. There's way more fuel now chopped up into kindling by their masticators.
They don't cut, but chew it up and throw it all around. Nobody in forest management seems to
actually touch any tree or bend down to pick something up or even get out of their truck or heavy equipment.
I know that is stereotyping but it is what we've seen in our area.
Arne
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Nov 27, 2018 - 09:08am PT
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We have loads of fuel load removal here in Tahoe and every year we see the recurring debate about how some don't want to deal with the smoke from the controlled burns.
As far as the masticators leaving behind tons of slash everywhere that is just a matter of funding. There are various levels of treatments available and each has an associated cost. I'll try to post up some pics of the current program that's been in my back yard all summer later.
And fuel reduction plans are driven at least as much by profit as by environmental concerns. For instance the Camp Fire burned through areas that had already been managed, had already burned, and were nothing but brush and scrub oak. There is no way to manage that land without 100% government funding because there is no profit for the timber companies there. And the government funding isn't there and is dropping.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nov 27, 2018 - 11:18am PT
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Read ‘1491’ and report back.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Nov 27, 2018 - 11:31am PT
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some photos of the logging going on back there. we have usable timber which makes this possible
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 27, 2018 - 02:16pm PT
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Heavens to Betsy!
Rick Sylvester's pine needle tonnage at Tahoe each fall is immense.
He does it all himself, too.
Hundreds of bags of dry pine needles.
Don't know where he sends them.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 28, 2018 - 06:08am PT
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That requires a paradigm shift, innovation, and incentive.
Sorry, that is not currently on the menu. We could substitute a heaping pile of coal instead.
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Tom Patterson
Trad climber
Seattle
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Nov 28, 2018 - 06:25am PT
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Please...is it too much to expect POTUS to be able to speak with more intelligence then a third grader so that internet forums don’t have to debate what he really meant?
That'd be a resounding "Yes."
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nov 28, 2018 - 06:37am PT
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Pretty sure that if you've got bone dry fuel stacked by the billions of tons with a good steady wind tossed in... that it's all gonna burn at some point. That roomba might move the timing a bit.
People who build on the slopes of volcanoes or 6" above sea level on beaches around the globe are in similar chosen boats.
Are the residential home insurance rates higher in any areas out West in places deemed "high fire risk"?
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2018 - 07:30am PT
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Well I'm sorry that I choose to include an obscenity in the title. This started as more of a play on the other thread with a similar title.
But glad there's a real (and civil) discussion going on about this serious topic!!
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couchmaster
climber
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Nov 28, 2018 - 12:29pm PT
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Got it thanks Jeremy! I was thinking you noted that because that area had been clear cut or burned. The lazy lyin' NY Times borrowed the old 2016 photo that Boston used cause they're too damned lazy to get a new shot. You'd think in this day and age they could have called someone in Ca and had them email a current version.
Compare: Boston herald 2016:
vs NY Times 2 years later on the left:
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Nov 28, 2018 - 12:56pm PT
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So what?
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 28, 2018 - 02:36pm PT
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ionlyski, you are confusing the fire line with the post fire rehab.
Wrong
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