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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 16, 2018 - 09:27pm PT
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Joe Fitschen gave a wonderful remembrance of Royal Robins at the recent Oakdale Climber's Festival, and I've been thinking about the central theme ever since.
Joe should publish it if he hasn't already (though I don't think he has). The long form of the stories exist in his book Going Up, were we learn of the very early climbing adventures of Joe and a host of characters, Royal among them, and certainly Royal became the center of that climbing universe.
In our youth we wonder what future will unfold for us, and now in our old age we know. Joe recounted the early times when he and Robbins, would go out climbing without any other thought than having fun. Before there was the push for harder grades or bigger routes or important climbs, there was just the fun of climbing.
Royal's future unfolded in influential and important ways, Joe ended his remembrance something like:
"I wish I could take you back to that time when it was just fun."
I have made a concerted effort, since hearing Joe, to make sure my climbing has been motivated by having that kind of fun.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Nov 16, 2018 - 09:54pm PT
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I understand what you are saying. For me it was just that, fun. Then testosterone took over and it was, well what can I do with this natural drug. So I went for it and I'm stoked on the memories. I have a family now so things aren't as raucous on my end. But it is sure fun as all get out when we get out and now it's just fun.
S....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 16, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
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Hi Ed
Joe Fitschen gave a wonderful remembrance of Royal Robins at the recent Oakdale Climber's Festival, and I've been thinking about the central theme ever since. Joe should publish it if he hasn't already (though I don't think he has)
Mari and I couldn't get to Oakdale, so I missed Joe's comments (and meeting you), but I know Steve recorded everything, so his words are not lost.
Joe ended his remembrance something like: "I wish I could take you back to that time when it was just fun."
I have made a concerted effort, since hearing Joe, to make sure my climbing has been motivated by having that kind of fun.
This brings to mind a couple of things. First, it's not just when they go climbing that people forget that fun is important. My ex-company (I retired a couple of months ago) hosted annual industry conferences in North America and Asia, and one of the high points was a so-called fireside chat -- just me and some industry bigwig on stage -- at the end of which, when I thought our chat was over, Denis said he had something important to bring up, and could he have a couple more minutes. This was a guy who was generally agreed to be pretty much the best in the business, so of course I said yes...
His important point? Exactly the same as Joe Fitschen's: Yes, it's easy to get swallowed up in the belief that what we are doing is IMPORTANT!!! -- climbing in Joe's case, international logistics in Denis' -- but if we forget that important things should also be fun, we lose.
And second, we must never forget the Prime Directive of Climbing: "It don't have to be fun, to be fun!"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Nov 16, 2018 - 09:56pm PT
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I too was impressed by Joe's talk and our marathon session with him that evening back at the hotel. I was impressed by his remembrances of that time but also of his continuing appreciation and enjoyment of life. While his memories of those early days were clearer than most, I did not get the impression that he was stuck in that time frame, longing nostalgically for the golden age. Rather, he had used it as the springboard for a long and fulfilling life beyond climbing.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Nov 16, 2018 - 09:59pm PT
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And speaking of fun, I always remember Layton Kor's saying - "The best climber is the one that has the most fun".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 16, 2018 - 10:05pm PT
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Wish it were true but human nature being what it is, the good old days had their share of competition and rivalries.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2018 - 10:57pm PT
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I don't mean to say that Joe was stuck in the past, and I agree with Jim that there were all the foibles of human ambition on display.
Joe was remembering the time when climbing with Royal was "just fun," when there were no other ambitions, when there wasn't even the idea that there would be.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 16, 2018 - 11:08pm PT
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Competition and rivalries are fun, Jim. Part of life in any endeavor.
I've never gotten involved with these in climbing, though.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 17, 2018 - 07:11am PT
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Since Idaho climbing in the 1970's was far from the mainstream, it was fun to have fun with a local climbing club named The Decker Flat Climbing & Frisbee Club, & a fun club slogan.
Our first 4th of July party in 1970.
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Trump
climber
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Nov 17, 2018 - 10:02am PT
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^^^^^^^
That looks about as good as it gets!
I think that not unlike ourselves interpreting our experiences as fun, imagining that anything is or was “just” anything is a simplification that we simple humans probably need to make, at some point or other. Maybe knowing or understanding less is or was more fun, but I expect you’re prolly someone who experiences gaining a more complex understanding as fun.
Either way, have fun!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 17, 2018 - 10:10am PT
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Whaaaaat? It was supposed to be fun!?
Joe, you could have said something, you know?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 17, 2018 - 10:21am PT
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It was supposed to be fun!?
Exactly.
Is this the fun part?
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John M
climber
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Nov 17, 2018 - 11:07am PT
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Without the challenge and a legitimate chance of failure, it's just amusing exercise. An average mountain bike ride is more fun to me than climbing things that don't present a challenge.
maybe you need to expand your definition of fun to include challenges.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 17, 2018 - 11:37am PT
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If it still wasn't fun, people wouldn't do it. I think what he really means is that 'when were young and didn't have a care'. That's what I miss the most; the climbing is still the same. Gravity just pulls a bit harder now.
BTW, I can think of lots of times it wasn't fun. The forced bivies, having to do the dreaded man spoon, etc., etc.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 17, 2018 - 11:48am PT
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Are you talking about hardman fun, or regular man fun?
It is relative.
I will try anything once. Twice if it hurts. ;-)
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Nov 17, 2018 - 12:32pm PT
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It’s all really fun. Until it isn’t.
Maybe the older you get the easier it is to remember where the line to not fun is.
I’ve really been enjoying climbing and the folks I meet more the older I get.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 17, 2018 - 01:09pm PT
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There are many harsh lessons to be learned from the gambling experience, but the harshest one of all is the difference between having fun and being smart.
Hunter S. Thompson
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Nov 17, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
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i toiled and tumbled and slammed and struggled to remove myself from tree wells and awkward head plants in deep powder but i was a happy warrior about it each and every day until eventually i could lace a trail thru moguls and drop into chutes with aplomb. free heels were the key to mobility in the mountains, and i didn't doubt for a moment that skill on skis was what i needed to get where i wanted to be. fear that i might arrive there without the requisite abilities is what sustained me thru the aspiring years. in the end, the best reward was the safety that accompanies simple competence.
my ex was a gifted, natural athlete. gymnastics came easy for her, so said her sisters. each of them had taken state in high school and made me believe that jenny was the star in the family. she would show up at meets and pull off routines that she had barely practiced. i think her motivation had to do with not wanting to be left behind, or let her sisters to get one up on her.
she bought tele gear for social reasons, but it turned out, at least back in the good old days of primitive skis and floppy boots, she found it to be trickier than it appeared. so when she tossed her stuff in the closet and swore it off after all of a week, i found myself examining the difference between our two approaches. that's when the word fun came up. with all the humiliation involved, "where was the fun?"
what came to mind were the numerous beach trips we took as kids. long before boogie boards, we would get out far enough to pretend we were body surfers, which is a skill we can't claim to ever have acquired, but we took joy in a lot of abuse and luckily not one of our gang broke a skinny neck. but while we got thrashed and tossed about ruthlessly in the surf, the one thought, that at least i never had, was that we weren't having fun
~~~~
as to climbing, it's bound to turn up fun ... this business of taking a well appointed set of aptitudes out for a grippy dance. it's just what these bodies were built to do, simple as that!
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Nov 17, 2018 - 02:16pm PT
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There were times I did climbing that was carefree and fun. For instance, taking a less experienced climber out and doing a fun, easy multi-pitch where I got all the leads.
But even beyond the competitive aspect of it, I enjoyed pushing myself. I loved getting in "the zone". I could sometimes do it with basketball and sometime with climbing. But I never got into the zone climbing easy, fun stuff.
I also pushed myself to increase my route choice. After standing in line to do all the moderate 5.8 and 5.9 moderate multi-pitch climbs in the Yosemite/Tahoe area, you start eyeing harder routes and working up to them.
My main partner and I spent long hours learning to climb wide cracks just to open up more Yosemite route possibilities. I don't remember having a lot of fun during much of the learning process. But I vividly remember one day on a flared 5.10a OW/squeeze chimney suddenly thinking, "wow, this is the first time a wide 10a climb felt no harder than other types of 10a climbing and I can make smooth upward progress without thrashing". That was a really fun discovery after a lot of hours of grueling practice.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 17, 2018 - 02:25pm PT
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with so much that is not laughable, I find that making sure I laugh a lot when climbing is key.
Not sure how to spontaneously get my laughs, but if I'm open to the joy of the sarcasm, the silly, the ridiculous... well then I can usually arrive at that place.
:)
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Nov 17, 2018 - 08:32pm PT
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Surfing, when I got started, was just for the fun of it. It's come a long way baby. As has climbing.
Nice thread idea Doc.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Nov 18, 2018 - 10:51am PT
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"Just fun" is my main goal for climbing outside, and has been for years.
I tend to train much harder stuff in the gym than I am even interested in doing outside, because I find that when I take it down a notch outside, having a reserve level of fitness and strength makes stuff feel really fun.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 18, 2018 - 11:37am PT
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All smiles for miles -
`87-? -no- "you did't fly for me, have real fun; try anything hard with me, till late in `92 or `93"
there seems to be real debate?
The person what took the snap says 6 yrs latter at least
When were those purple 'Sportiva shoes the rage ? 92-3?
the Off "Laughing Man" flying upside down in a 20 year old Forrest tie-on swami & leg loop rig.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 18, 2018 - 01:24pm PT
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Its still fun after 41 years.
The only thing that has changed is the definition of fun.
Fun involves more comfort than it used to.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Nov 18, 2018 - 05:19pm PT
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It's always been fun for me....missed out on the hard core early on.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Nov 19, 2018 - 06:41am PT
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"I wish I could take you back to that time when it was just fun."
Perhaps Joe is simply reflecting on all the good times in his youth with his great friend. I know for myself I too wish I could go back to those care free days of my youth, laughing in the sun playing pirates on rock with my buddies. Sure grades, tick lists and competition were ultimately superimposed on it all but for me what was so fun and still is are the people. I'm sure many of you would agree that climbers are some of the most halarious and fun people to be around.
Berg Heil to you all,
Charlie D.
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Nov 19, 2018 - 09:21am PT
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It was fun as hell, wouldn't change a thing!
Caylor!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:44am PT
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It’s always fun...but “fun” can mean so many different things to people.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 11:04am PT
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Micronut and Macronut, still fun after all these years.
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Nov 19, 2018 - 01:37pm PT
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Hi Ed,
This is something I think about frequently as well now that I'm staring in the face of impending old age. How will I have fun when my skills/strength experience the inevitable decline? What attributes are necessary for "fun" and what aren't?
They say "comparison is the thief of joy." I've always been competitive with myself and I don't see that changing. In a way, that contributes to my fun. But it is most certainly not fun when I get down on myself. It's not fun comparing with others, or what I used to be able to do either. I've never been one to scream and yell when I fall off my project either. I just have quiet resolve to learn, get stronger, and try again.
But will I have "fun" when the grade I am doing (onsight or projecting) is lower? I've always told myself that I would but it's easy to say from the outside; more difficult when you're there. With two broken fingers, my crack climbing ability is definitely diminished. Still working about the same level of sport, or in the gym.
A couple of years ago, Anne and I did a four-pitch 5.11 crack in Zion that neither of us had ever done called Smashmouth. Great route by the way. We alternated leads and both freed every pitch. On the way back to the car, I had mentioned to Anne that I had been wondering if my days of onsighting 5.11 cracks were coming to an end. She said, "maybe so, but not this day." We most certainly had fun.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 19, 2018 - 05:47pm PT
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Emergent Stonemaster Chapman on the right.
Check out the footwear.
Photo posted on neebee's FB page. Thanks!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nov 19, 2018 - 05:55pm PT
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I like fun. But there were times when I thought I was going to die but didn't and afterwards they were fun. Ah, memory.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 19, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
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For me it was never just fun. It was fun, but it was other things too. Coming from bicycle racing, a very competitive activity, into climbing meant I carried a lot of that approach with me.
My first partner, a mentor, was a cyclist as well. We competed in formal events in Central Park (NYC) and did long distance rides too. So he brought that competitive instinct to the table as well. But within that framework we had top notch fun.
I climbed at the Gunks and Adirondacks for about ten more years with various partners, mostly better than I. I'll say that I avoided those Vulgarian freaks like the plague :-) But when I got to L.A. and started bouldering regularly at Stoney point I found a whole new intensity of competition, and again it was great fun so long as I won every so often.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Nov 20, 2018 - 09:00am PT
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I don't see how climbing for us ordinary garden-variety climbers can be anything more, nor less, than pure fun at the end of the day.( Unless something goes wrong)
For those who excel, are supremely talented, and rise above the ordinary, and inhabit those crucial territories in history-- well, their bailiwick is made different.
"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required,"
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 22, 2018 - 06:58pm PT
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I don't see how climbing for us ordinary garden-variety climbers can be anything more, nor less, than pure fun at the end of the day.
([Click to View YouTube Video]
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curt wohlgemuth
Social climber
Bay Area, California
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Nov 22, 2018 - 08:37pm PT
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I have had plenty of climbing days that weren't fun. Climbing over my head, with crappy partners, or when I pushed myself to do something I just didn't want to do ("Fred did it, so I should be able to also").
The funnest days have always been the ones with good partners, at a grade that was sufficiently challenging for the time and place -- might be 5.11 might be 5.6.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 25, 2018 - 04:11pm PT
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hey there, say, ... mouse, you got a little 'oops'y there...
... that one brother, there, is matt... :)
though, mark did start with him, too??? i think... or,
with JACK menendez... (which i think, jack said, was really him,
that started going places with mark) ... :)
matt though, is a great carpenter and well known by many
of the climbing guys, :)
:)
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throwpie
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 25, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
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It was always about fun for me. Except for the terrifying parts.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 25, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
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Dood, look on the bright side - at least it wasn’t yer mom dragging you up.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2018 - 06:09pm PT
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It ain't fun until it's st00pid .....
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 25, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
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Call me St00psy, neebee.
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chappy
Social climber
oakhurst
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Nov 26, 2018 - 12:40am PT
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Mouse...pretty cool old pic. I must have taken the photo. That is my brother Matt on the right Blair Glen in the center and I believe his younger brother Brian on the left. Definitely fun times back then!
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The Frog
Trad climber
West Allis WI
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:47am PT
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At age 74 and still climbing, because it's still fun, I'm reminded of what a woman who taught me a lot about climbing when I first started said: "If you're doing this, it better be fun, 'cuz it's much too scary not to be fun, too." I let my rope gun buddies lead the hard stuff now. The last big climb I led was Skyline Traverse at Seneca Rocks, supposedly a 5.3, with my wife seconding (She's in her 60's). And boy, did we have fun!
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:56am PT
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Immer Lustig!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 12, 2018 - 10:00am PT
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Cool shirt!
DMT
Yeah, looks like a Latok garment.
And this photo Mark Chapman took of his brother Matt and the Blair boys IS FUN!
 Having known Matt, I could see right away that it is him. Narrower eyes with thicker eyelids, and usually a more stoic visage as compared to his brothers.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 12, 2018 - 10:07am PT
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Stout stuff FROG!
Skyline Traverse at Seneca Rocks, supposedly a 5.3, still Chalkless in 11/17
it never gets hard, but still, -Not- for a scared/beginner/gym-climber, to try to lead.
I didn't find any footage of the "sketchy walk over the chasm"
That "Step over" is one of 3-4 spots, you need to be solid for.
this Go-pro Video is telling[Click to View YouTube Video]
TURN THE VOLUME (wind noise) OFF, @0:47 of 0:54 seconds, watch for the 'pan' looking up.[Click to View YouTube Video]
the Go-pro of the 1st party's 3rd pitch
(watch, if you can stand the go-pro thingy?)[Click to View YouTube Video]Good Fun
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Dec 12, 2018 - 12:07pm PT
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Didn’t really matter to us whether it was the first time or the umpteenth. The prize was always awaiting us—the remembrance of what home feels like.
‘Fun’ is fun, sure. But perspectives do change, and for me, fulfillment is the requirement that has replaced fun—a word I hardly use anymore—because the replacement is so much more… fulfilling.
While I still love spending time in the mountains and deserts of the physical plane, it would now be relatively empty without the attainments of elevations where I can actually establish myself, set up residence, and never have to leave. A trip into the Wind Rivers is wonderful, but it’s no longer a requirement for ineffable experience.
Nice contemplation, Ed.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 12, 2018 - 12:38pm PT
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Larry, yer SO full of fill dirt. :0)
Nah, just kiddin'. I seem not to be able to take much seriously any longer.
I must be entering my second childhood.
Keep up the good vibes.
How's tricks in the Land of Enchantment/Fulfillment?
Some guys never grow up. Some guys never grow old.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:31pm PT
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Just to pick up a conversation with DMT about halfway back up this thread...
Interesting point ksolem. I notice you separate 'just fun' from a something else - competition.
I had to learn over time I don't really enjoy participation in competition sport. I had negative experiences in school and in the military and gravitated toward individual contributor activities my whole life, both for play and work.
I'm not much of a team player.
And I had to learn I do not enjoy turning climbing into a competition. When I turn competitive, I had to learn again and again, I was not having fun anymore. And I don't necessarily mean competitive with others so much as competitive with myself.
Just goes to show we're all wired differently and the definition of having fun is individual as well. But back to the OP of the thread, I suspect Joe was also referring to the notion that competition impacted his and others ability to just have fun as well, but of course he speaks for himself.'
Cheers
DMT
The competition I was talking about was in no way a negative thing. We were pushing each other. It was a kind of fun, and I never went home disappointing by that. I did go home disappointed if I failed on a climb I wanted to do, but that was between myself and I, and it didn't last long. Myself and I just got into the game of pushing each other :-)
I've never been one for the normal sorts of team sports either, and the winner vs loser style of competing. Winner takes all is not my idea of fun.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:44pm PT
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Everyone climbs for fun, but “fun” can mean so many seemingly contradictory things for different people. Climbing endless aid pitches doesn’t look like fun to me but, correspondingly, some of the alpine stuff I enjoy wouldn’t trip the trigger for most folks.
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Dec 13, 2018 - 07:12am PT
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Soul is in absolute agreement with you, Mouse. Larry Horton is nothing BUT dirt. As are you and everyone reading this. Werner, Ed, Jim. Everyone. And everything. The Canadian Rockies, the Alps, Sierra, Karakoram. All dirt. If you think I’m being cynical or facetious—or if what you REALLY think Larry Horton is full of is something other than dirt—you’re invited to come back and take a look around for yourself in 20, 30 years. All dirt.
Is that all there is? Of course not. But you’re in the company of billions of individuals still under the illusion that all this is real. And when the several hundred or so you associate with here experience the translation of one of your illusory—not illustrious, illusory—compatriots, everyone goes into shock, horror, regret, anguish, surprise—and weepy denial.
This is the dream, Mouse, not the reality. And it’s just a coarse reflection of our collective and individual amnesia of who and what we are.
And this is taking place in a thread about ‘fun’.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 13, 2018 - 07:57am PT
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It's all fun and games until it isn't. Har har...
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Dec 14, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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It’s quite often a fine line of distinction between fun, adventure and horror, especially with trad, or alpine climbing. Last time I went trad climbing it was a mix of fun, adventure and suffering. It made me happy and left me wanting more.
That picture on Guadalupe rock is something! I did my first lead climb on that rock many years ago, lol. It was more fulfilling than fun at the time.
It is such a minor crag, I never thought I would see a picture of it posted on the internet!
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 15, 2018 - 11:58am PT
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Comparison is the thief of joy - attributed to Theodore Roosevelt
Comparison is the death of joy - attrib. to Mark Twain
The Declaration of Independence could have used "fun" instead of "happiness,"but we each have our own notions of what defines either.
Youthful hubris and energy fuel all sorts of ambitions, depending on temperament; we disguise them in varieties of other euphemisms, some noble, some idealistic, some valiantly absurd.
Talent can turn one person's death-defying epic into another's fun-filled holiday, but in climbing if we were honest, our murky goals sometimes run into darker realms where fun is a dirty word. We equate fun with being too easy, simple, uninspiring, noncommittal, trivial, unworthy of our superior abilities. We forget that fun is not a goal, but a byproduct as we work through lives that involve effort, disappointment, and random wounds and setbacks. Zest for life may just refer to the ability to find the moments of fun in the moment, regardless of situation.
Of course very few lifelong climbers would have ever persisted, were it not for the sheer undefinable, unbridled joy experienced when the first technical rocks were grasped and successfully ascended. That childlike, unapologetic glee felt unencumbered by expectations, washing over our pretensions and embarrassment at being incompetent or clumsy.
That first hit can be euphoric, or lead down a life of addiction, depending on our unique traits. If we can mature, and come to realize how much fun actually arises from the companions and adventures we have on the journey, we can let the numbers and ratings and speeds and narrow escapes sift into their own pigeonholes, and be content to savor what we distill as fun, from our experiences.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 15, 2018 - 12:02pm PT
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Everyone climbs for fun
Fixed it for ya:
Everyone without an amygdala climbs for fun.
yer welcome
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 15, 2018 - 02:36pm PT
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How about the one's that are only fun when you're done with it, sitting at the fire back at camp. All of a sudden everyone's all in a buzz about how great it was.
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Tom Patterson
Trad climber
Seattle
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Dec 15, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
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^^^ I was just about to say that same thing, Ksolem. Sometimes, it's a question of getting through a route that was challenging, punctuated by moments or stretches of pure terror, and then sitting around the fire to talk with your partner about how gnarly it was. Sometimes, the fun is retrospective, rather than in the moment. Nothing wrong with that.
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Dec 16, 2018 - 05:40am PT
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“We forget that fun is not a goal, but a byproduct as we work through lives that involve effort, disappointment, and random wounds and setbacks.” —AE
Absolutely. Joy and bliss come closer, but even they are not the goals. They are most enduring when they result from placing our attention on what is real. And simply ascending beyond what is not. Interestingly, the “effort, disappointment, and random wounds and setbacks” we experience are not real. They just appear that way in a dual world, where everything must be balanced by its opposite in order to exist.
It’s unclear to me what Teddy and Mr. Clemens were getting at. Surely, both were remarkable and interesting characters who’d fit right in here, but neither of them were residing in realms above duality—and neither are we. So, blaming loss of joy on ‘comparison’ leads us down the dark alley of intellect, and abandons us there because comparison equally leads to ‘loss’ of pain and suffering. We actually get fairly balanced doses of joy and suffering in a dual world. And the degree of that balance or imbalance is dependent on what we accept as real.
I’ll be the first to agree that the dual worlds suck. In fact that’s their intention—to force us to finally wake up and look for a way to transcend them, and get outta Dodge. When we start looking within, a previously unperceived pathway is not far off. When we keep putting all our cards on the outer world—activities, other people, conditions, locations, escapes, erudition, and all the other places we typically look—we get more of the familiar see-saw. By design.
We eventually learn the most from adversity, don’t we? It’s the grist that sharpens the blade. When did we ever have a lasting epiphany from fun? Fond memories maybe, but experiences that changed our behavior? Or elevated our viewpoint? Brought us face to face with a fleeting microsecond glimpse of who we truly are?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 16, 2018 - 08:14am PT
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What if it’s a traverse?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 16, 2018 - 08:16am PT
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Or an OW!?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2018 - 08:19am PT
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Happiness and fun are the original eternal defacto constitutional positions of every living entity.
If you are trying to make it a goal then you are already living on the wrong planet because you are doing it artificially here .....
The poor fund of knowledge gross materialists are ultimately clueless why they are even here to begin with.
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Dec 16, 2018 - 08:43am PT
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What if it’s a traverse?
Ha! That’s pretty funny, Reilly.
‘Traversing’, in the limited sense of climbing vernacular, is precisely what people do all their lives!
Same thing Werner hints at.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 16, 2018 - 08:43am PT
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larryhorton fun was coming down off of Higher Cathedral Spire with myself and Jeff Mathis after dark with no headlamp, flashlight, or even matches.
It was nearly as fun an experience as that time I passed out in Larry's cat litter box, come to think of it.
HCS was memorable because it was my first 5.8 lead in spankin' new Robbins god boots.
Thanks for those boots, Larry.
And thanks for the memory.
I'm smilin' as I type this.
Larry Jones is heading for hip surgery on the 14th of Feb., thought you'd like to know.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2018 - 08:52am PT
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I'll put emphases in OP title:
When it was just fun
that is, fun and nothing else...
...not the byproduct, not the after thought;
in the moment.
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Dec 16, 2018 - 09:06am PT
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Happiness and fun are the original eternal defacto constitutional positions of every living entity.
Key elements of this statement don’t hold water, Werner. Might it be more accurate to express the truth that happiness is an unwavering, inherent quality of soul? But that soul—in this moment, which is the only ‘place’ it resides—is merely a latent, unawakened spark, snoring loudly in all these living entities?
Yes, that spark exists in each of us. But no one here is in the ‘position’ of soul. Unless it’s in blind subservience to the mind/ego.
I can’t help but recall having this conversation with you, years ago, that if soul is a happy entity (and it is), why are you so grumpy? Everyone is doing exactly what they need to do, to get where they are going. Each one doing so perfectly—for their own journey..
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Dec 16, 2018 - 09:10am PT
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Because, Ed, ‘fun’ is equally as illusive as ‘pain’.
But go for it! Masters throughout time have teased us with the notion that we can laugh our way to heaven. It is the preferred way to go!
And thanks again for this contemplation.
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Dec 16, 2018 - 09:16am PT
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Dead image, Mouse. The Live Image is our only reality. And, in it, I’m smiling, too.
Give my love to Jeff, would you?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 16, 2018 - 09:38am PT
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Straight from a show, those are tour clothes, worn like a Tuxedo & not in climbing shoes
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bombolini
Boulder climber
San Pedro
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Dec 16, 2018 - 09:51am PT
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Thanks for posting that Ed. It helps me remember why we go to the mountains. Because Ed, the word fun is my new "four letter" word for me these days. As strange as that sounds. Keep up the good word bud.
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Dec 17, 2018 - 02:46am PT
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I'll put emphases in OP title:
When it was just fun
that is, fun and nothing else...
...not the byproduct, not the after thought;
in the moment.
Ed, my attention keeps being drawn to these words. And here, in the hours of the elixir, they led me back to your original post, as you intended.
What draws me back to look more closely is the yearning evident in your voice. It’s sincere, it’s deep, it’s profound. The image between your lines stirs the memory of what that yearning is like. The frustration that one feels from not being understood for one’s true desire. The pain of having once tasted something that felt so much like home, and came so effortlessly, so spontaneously, before the full weight of our karma descended upon us, making the separation from that memory so much more impenetrable.
I remember that feeling of separation, and how subtly agonizing it was. Before I recognized its purpose. It’s the yearning of the oppressed soul for the supremacy which is rightfully its own, but which has become so distant as to become nearly imperceptible. That’s not something I thought of or conjured up as pretty words. It’s something that smacked me in the face like a thunderbolt over twenty years ago, took my precious attention, and irretrievably turned it around, and placed it on the objective of human existence.
All I can tell you is how priceless that yearning will prove to be. When your time comes, in this or another lifetime, the entire universe will shift, and, from that moment on, the trajectory of the weight of that yearning will be slowly, but surely, redirected to its unspeakable fulfillment.
I know that’s a lot for mind to swallow. But if you can allow that image a place to roost, it will manifest.
Bon voyage, my friend.
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Pennsylenvy
Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
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Dec 17, 2018 - 04:18am PT
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Thanks for posting this up ED. This is ON topic.
A few years back was at the base of Clean and Jerk with a largish group from a Todd Gordon event which included some super climbers. The subject of who the best climber ever was being tossed around. We were all having fun taking turns on the luxury of a TR on it. When it was my turn I looked my belayer and said with emphasis GOT ME???!!!! Then I proceeded to dyno for the opening jug. I let out a hardman/woman war cry grunt as I splatted into the wall feet flailing in every which direction.
A little later the best climber conversation popped up again to which none other than THE Bird Jim Bridwell announced that obviously I Tim was the best climber because I was having the most FUN :) So when I look back at that I am reminded of Bill Murray saying that the Dali Lama told him ' when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.” So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.'
I have said before, Jim had a way of making people feel good about themselves, even if you are not the 'best' climber ;)
'
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 17, 2018 - 04:28am PT
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Y so serious, larryhorton?
Please quit taking the joy out of my existence, such as it is. I cannot possibly live up to the model you have made. I am not wired the same as you or some bhodisattva.
Now, Edward Abbey, he's the real funster, if you ask.
edit: :0)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 17, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
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its only grade 3 baby but is sure was fun :)
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Trump
climber
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
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Fun involves more comfort than it used to.
I like that! Most of the stuff that I used to consider fun would be considered suffering by most people.
I remember dayhiking Mt Whitney a while back with a friend. I don’t do well with altitude, but I was in good shape, and we spent a few days beforehand in Tuolumne, so all good.
The 4 am start was divine, hiking up the canyon in flashlight, daylight eventually lighting the eastern skies. Up to the frozen lake, where the fun begins. Slogging, suffering, nauseous, up that beautiful slope, the sublime ridge, the stunning summit. Have I ever felt worse? Maybe not. Suffering down the trail, until finally I got low enough to start to feel the slightest bit better.
OMFG! I am never f*#king doing that again! My friend felt the same way.
Until a few days later. Wow, that frozen lake was sooo cool! And the ridge, awesome! Still, the nausea, feeling like crap, no way.
Until a few days later. Remember that hike? Man that was cool wasn’t it?
Until a few days later. Man that was fun! Just fun. Let’s do it again!
So sure, I remember when it was just fun.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
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A few years back was at the base of Clean and Jerk with a largish group from a Todd Gordon event which included some super climbers. The subject of who the best climber ever was being tossed around. We were all having fun taking turns on the luxury of a TR on it. When it was my turn I looked my belayer and said with emphasis GOT ME???!!!! Then I proceeded to dyno for the opening jug. I let out a hardman/woman war cry grunt as I splatted into the wall feet flailing in every which direction.
A little later the best climber conversation popped up again to which none other than THE Bird Jim Bridwell announced that obviously I Tim was the best climber because I was having the most FUN :) So when I look back at that I am reminded of Bill Murray saying that the Dali Lama told him ' when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.” So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.'
That is such a great story, Tim - I had forgotten that one.
Pennsylenvy is ALWAYS the climber having the most fun!
That's why he gets the airplane rides.
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Dec 17, 2018 - 09:27pm PT
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keeping a sense of wonder and adventure is key
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stone free
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 20, 2018 - 05:07pm PT
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I always remember a simple statement from a Yosemite climbing partner, Paul, in 1978, "We climb because it's fun and we like it!"
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oldguy
climber
Bronx, NY
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Jan 22, 2019 - 09:28am PT
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The philosophy of fun here for all to see. Doubtless a lot more could be written, especially if it doesn't have to prove enlightening. But my brief obit wasn't about fun; it was about Royal. It was about a few other things, too, but mainly Royal was later portrayed as a serious guy, an oracle, a purveyor of standards, and he was. You had to be in order to do the things he did. But, as is often the case, there was another side to the man.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 22, 2019 - 09:36am PT
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It might be fun for you gifted types. 😽
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2019 - 08:06pm PT
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But my brief obit wasn't about fun; it was about Royal.
of course, and it was quiet touching, did you ever publish it?
If not, I am honored to have heard you deliver it.
It got me thinking about the joys of youth, and the sense of loss of innocence (for lack of a better word), and the memory of friends and the joy of those times together.
I am still thinking about what you said, and that includes Royal, and you.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Jan 23, 2019 - 08:48am PT
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Ed,
I met you a few years ago at facelift. Could you possibly email me at:
steve.arsenault1@gmail.com. The member to member contact system doesn't seem to work anymore. I've got a question for you. Thanks.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2019 - 09:41am PT
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email sent Steve
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 23, 2019 - 01:39pm PT
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We can each choose in every moment whether or not we want to have fun. Sometimes it's easier to pretend like it depends on some other external circumstance so we don't have to take responsibility for why we choose not to have more fun. I certainly get caught up in blaming other circumstances and surrendering my own power to make every moment better. But I try to fight back against this form of spiritual laziness. The more we make this effort, the more it inspires others around us to do the same, and we will into being a better world.
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