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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 29, 2018 - 09:06am PT
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Way off topic here but I thought this might be the place to tap for expertise -- does anyone have any idea which home espresso machine delivers the most bang for the buck? We have had cheap home machines in the past and have been notably disappointed in them. Gearing up for Xmas here and am willing to grit my teeth and shell out the bucks for a decent machine. But which one? And would still prefer to spend less than I would for a new rack.
Thanks
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 29, 2018 - 09:33am PT
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would still prefer to spend less than I would for a new rack.
sport or trad?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 29, 2018 - 09:34am PT
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or cosmetic?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 29, 2018 - 09:36am PT
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I know I’ll get slaughtered but for ease of use the Nespresso is very nice. The coffee quality is quite good and the pods can be recycled. They make one for every budget.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 29, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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I have a Rancilio Silvia and am quite happy with it.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Oct 29, 2018 - 10:08am PT
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My favorite. Someone bought us a Jura. I'm really grateful. Still, I appreciate simplicity, even if pushing the button on the Jura gets easier and easier.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Oct 29, 2018 - 10:43am PT
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Very on topic - no coffee - no move.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 29, 2018 - 10:47am PT
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Talking about coffee on a climbing forum is NOT OT.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Oct 29, 2018 - 11:07am PT
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The difference between expreso and regular coffee is whether the extraction is done with hot water or steam. The higher temp of steam extracts a slightly different mix of chems, and a little different taste. Coffee strength is mainly determined by the water to coffee ratio used.
The rest is explained by the phenomena of how people develop intense fetishes over their drugs.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Oct 29, 2018 - 11:37am PT
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Sorry Don but espresso is also extracted with hot water, usually around 201 degrees. The difference is that it is driven by 8 atmospheres of pressure. Steam is only used to froth milk.
I have had a Rancillio Silvia for many years. It works really well and is rugged as they come. It is often available as a refurbished machine for a substantial savings. That is how I got mine.
The next question though is which grinder? The grinder is every bit as important to the taste. I have a Barratza and love it. I make a cappuchino every morning so my equipment gets lots of use. Both pieces have worked flawlessly for many years.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Oct 29, 2018 - 11:45am PT
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Good point about the pressure but its also a basic principle of engineering that fluids are incompressible, so only steam can be under pressure. The pressure also probably drives the extraction though.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 29, 2018 - 11:45am PT
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I have long avoided putting any dairy products in my coffee because I feel they will detract from the pure taste of coffee which I love.
On a side note...who is responsible for flavored coffees which I find hideous?
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 29, 2018 - 11:49am PT
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..who is responsible for flavored coffees which I find hideous?
Women
When I was doing research on my espresso machine I read on some forums that whatever your budget is for the machine, use that for the grinder instead. Apparently they are that important.
I have yet to buy a good grinder - on my holiday list for myself.
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ryanb
climber
Hamilton, MT
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Oct 29, 2018 - 11:53am PT
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The best bang for the buck by far is to get a delonghi (we have a EC 680) and use it with the unpressurized basket from a pavoni millenium:
https://www.amazon.com/Pavoni-Millenium-Later-Filter-Basket/dp/B00IAEQJTO
Lots of good info if you google around or "delonghi pavoni millenium". You have to flatten the lip of the basket with pliers but the result works very well. We've been using ours multiple times a day for 4 ish years and would order another tomorrow if it broke.
Good grinder review here:
https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/the-best-coffee-grinder/
We have the capresso but would spring for the newer baratza if it broke.
Edit: we had a rancillio silvia in an office i used to work in and that would be my choice as a next step up. Coffee quality is similar but the silvia is noticeably more solid in construction and uses a true boiler instead of a thermal block. I'd skip anything with too many automatic features etc.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 29, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
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It would be interesting to do a blind taste test. I wonder if the grinding right before you make it with a special grinder, in a special espresso machine, really makes much of a difference compared to the beans you use.
Does an espesso machine make pesos?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 29, 2018 - 01:40pm PT
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Naked Portafilter Porn™...
I'm also an aspiring (latte) artist...
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Oct 29, 2018 - 02:13pm PT
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japanese hand grinder with a bialetti. the less moving parts the better. best beans are the ones you like, first crack for me. i dont them to either skid nor crumble in the grinder and only a hand grinder can tell me that.
ive found the best effect ive had was what altitude its made at. theres a sweet spot at about 4750m where i presume the water boils at a low enough temp to not overheat both the oils and the contraption, but still high enough to express the crema.
or it could be that the setting, exhaustion and reduced O to the brain heightens the fantasy...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 29, 2018 - 02:23pm PT
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But, ecdh, you didn’t address the weather factor - will yer dosage cause undue weather exposure?
And if yer TP supplies are dwindling dare you dose?
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Oct 29, 2018 - 03:07pm PT
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spring for some ethiopian, freshly roasted. maybe even better after a day's work outside. treat the hosts well. ultimately, it may bring more smiles than anything engineered to first world tolerances. (...I should walk the talk.)
raising my cup: for the win...
The rest is explained by the phenomena of how people develop intense fetishes over their drugs.
edit: if you like flavored coffee, bring along an extra bottle.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Oct 29, 2018 - 03:25pm PT
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Pavoni or Elektra are TOL Italian machines.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 29, 2018 - 04:29pm PT
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Like you, we have gone through a variety of espresso machines over the decades. The best, by a considerable margin, is our current unit, made by Breville. It is heavy-duty to the point that if we knocked it onto the floor we'd probably have to repair the floor, and it has worked flawlessly for six years now, pumping out a minimum of three shots per day.
Breville makes a range of espresso machines. None are super cheap and some are quite expensive. The one we have is no longer in their lineup, but the closest current offering sells for $380 on amazon.
Here's ours. The grinder in the photo is a Capresso. Not quite as sturdy as the Breville machine, but it's done a great job for us for ten years now.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Oct 29, 2018 - 04:39pm PT
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We're very happy with our Breville Barista Express unit.
Excellent, integrated burr grinder. Great steamer, and beautiful espresso with lots of crema. All with quite customizable settings, and a well-engineered 'semi-automatic' system. Around US$600, MFSR, as I recall.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Oct 29, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Oct 30, 2018 - 07:36am PT
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http://coffeegeek.com/guides/howtobuyanespressomachine
http://coffeegeek.com/guides/howtobuyanespressomachine/getagrinder
I've got one of these (Baratza Vario). It uses ceramic burrs and can be used as a doser or you can grind into the bin. Adjustment and repeatability are excellent. ~$500.
http://coffeegeek.com/guides/howtobuyanespressomachine/semiautomachines
Most people either buy semi-automatic or automatic. My machine works either way. Most machines under $1,000 are single boiler machines, meaning the water inside the boiler is what you're drinking, and that boiler is required to do everything for you, brew, steam, hot water. I have a heat exchanger type, meaning I don't drink the water from inside the boiler, and it can more readily perform multiple functions simultaneously. You can maybe find one on sale for $1,000.
I bought my machine (Bezzera) and get my coffee from 1st-Line.
A single boiler machine like a Rancilio Silvia ($700) is probably a good starting point for your search. Look at Whole Latte Love and Seattle Coffee Gear and work from there.
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phil jolley
Trad climber
Bergen, Norway
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Oct 30, 2018 - 08:59am PT
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After I wrote everything below, this post above basically covered it all...so, see above.
I have been an espresso bar owner, roasted coffee for my business on several Probat commercial roasters and was a certified judge for the US barista Championship (CV seems important for some reason).
So, the answer is too complicated to say "buy this". The way to go is to buy as good (or better) grinder than your machine as this is where most of the quality problems lie in home espresso. There are many but the Rancilio Rocky is considered about as cheap as you can go. Also look at the Masser mini (much more expensive but a beast). As for the machine, choose a true E61 type group. Avoid the Breville machines as they have zero customer service. Be prepared to spend over $1000 even going the used route (I bought used/refurbished and have been very happy). There are a lot of people that buy the good equipment and get frustrated by how insanely difficult it is to make good espresso and these folks sell their stuff used after it sits on the counter for awhile...a great opportunity for you.
The place to start your research is home-barista.com or coffeegeek.com and read as much as you can handle (these are truly geek sites and will suck you into heat curve comparisons etc). After you think you understand what you want (you don't actually since there are too many factors to actually make espresso properly on a consistent basis), find a place to buy with good customer support (chris coffee, whole latte love, seattle coffee gear), study, study, study (watch the videos on the Verve, sightglass, cat and cloud, ritual, etc websites and read everything), then buy ony fresh (less than 2 weeks old but older than 4 days-the off gassing of C02 will be hard to manage in the cup if it's fresher than 4 days) good espresso from a local roaster and be willing to waste A LOT of coffee trying to get it right. I used to go through 4 to 10 double shots each morning just to get dialed in on very good commercial equipment that I used each day for years...it's a struggle every time.
Essentially, espresso is impossible, as the more you use the machines (grinder and espresso machine) the more you change their heat and so the way they transfer this heat to the coffee.
It's a fun chase but be prepared for a lot of frustration. It's rewarding when you get a great shot, but with so many variables, getting great shots consistently is pretty much impossible.
Oh, and read the book by David Schomer "espresso coffee-professional techniques" (it's old but it's the bible for this stuff).
Have fun, as you must enjoy tweaking on many tiny details to be successful.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Oct 30, 2018 - 10:25am PT
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I have had fantastic results with the DeLonghi Magnfica. I have a 2010 model going strong. Makes excellent crema which is the big indicator. About $1200 retail. I got mine on sale for $400 at a Starbucks in Orange County. Works almost as good as $3000-$5000 rig.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Oct 30, 2018 - 11:32am PT
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Anyone paying thousands of dollars for specialized coffee machinery is a hard core drug addict. You could probably build a meth lab cheaper lol.
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F'ueco
Boulder climber
Peoples Republic Of Boulder
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Oct 30, 2018 - 12:48pm PT
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Now I need n espresso... I need to replace our worn out machine, so I’m looking at this thread with interest. The Breville machines at Bed Bath & Beyond look good, especially with a 20% off coupon.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Oct 30, 2018 - 02:38pm PT
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I have a Baratza Vario W - it automatically doses by weight. It is accurate to a couple tenths of a gram. It saves a huge amount of time and makes for more consistent espresso. Just push a button, pour grounds into basket and pull shots. I also got it as a refurb from Baratza although it looked brand new. I like both Klatch and Espresso Vivace coffee - both quite different but both have some wonderful beans.
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Pete_N
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Oct 30, 2018 - 02:57pm PT
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I think I'm going back to cowboy coffee...
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Oct 30, 2018 - 03:02pm PT
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^^^^ Never - at least let me do drip.
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Ben Emery
Trad climber
Back and forth the Pacific
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Oct 30, 2018 - 10:16pm PT
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Great naked portafilter shot up above, Hardman Knott!
I use a La Pavoni lever machine (europiccola) and love it.
Not claiming for a moment it's the *best* espresso machine out there, but 12 years and nearly 10,000 coffees later mine is still going strong, so it's pretty hard to put a successful case for upgrading to the Household Fiscal Responsibility Committee.
There's a bit of a learning curve to using the lever machines, but I'd recommend them to anyone who thinks developing their own film sounds like a good idea (I figure it's a distinct personality type - probably some strong overlap with trad climbers).
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Oct 31, 2018 - 06:13am PT
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Best espresso maker is a tea bag.
For camping I just use the little tubes of instant, also made by Bustelo. Maybe worth a try to put real coffee in teabags and would definitely go with aid climbing lol. For car camping make a drip coffee maker out of Gatorade bottle cut in half with top half inverted, and a paper towel.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Oct 31, 2018 - 11:31am PT
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^^^^ That Krups is what I started out with as well. And 'No!' it does NOT make decent espresso. But if you can't tell, or haven't learned the differnce then it is fine for you.
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Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
California
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Oct 31, 2018 - 11:52am PT
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Gnome, thats a pretty condescending attitude you have re coffee. I am European, lived all over the world and drunk coffee plenty of times. i have a good idea of what constitutes good espresso. This machine takes little space and with the right grind makes coffee i enjoy.
I suggested it based on price, size and quality. On those metrics i think its good value
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 31, 2018 - 01:09pm PT
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DMT, isn’t coffee a coefficient of those three pursuits?
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 31, 2018 - 01:31pm PT
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Cue the #shitposting
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sos
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Fuji R220 w/ ghost burrs + Aeropress. Nothing roasted past first crack. Nothing older than 7 days.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Sorry Sredni, that was not my intention. But to pronounce that the Krups makes good espresso in a thread where someone is asking for advice is just wrong because it really doesn't. If someone is financially constrained but still wants to make decent espresso the used market has lots of equipment at really good prices.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Does the Aeropress really deliver an expresso shot?
I really love the idea and the ease of the whole set up.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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As for the machine, choose a true E61 type group. Avoid the Breville machines as they have zero customer service.
What's interesting is that there are a whole lot of people on the Home Barista forum who see fit to pair the relatively inexpensive Breville Dual Boiler (BES920XL) with a $2000 Monolith Conical grinder or $2500 Monolith Flat.
So you recommend a "true E61" (presumably an HX type, as the E61-group double boilers are quite expensive) but then you write:
Essentially, espresso is impossible, as the more you use the machines (grinder and espresso machine) the more you change their heat and so the way they transfer this heat to the coffee.
It's a fun chase but be prepared for a lot of frustration. It's rewarding when you get a great shot, but with so many variables, getting great shots consistently is pretty much impossible.
That is precisely why I DID KNOTT get an E61 HX machine! Doing the "water dance" on an E61 HX to get the group temp to approx 200f seems like a huge PITA, and uses 4 to 6 oz of water per flush, and then you have to wait between shots a good bit for the temp to stabilize. And you never really know what the temp is; it's an approximation at best. Sod that! On my BDB I can bang out shot after shot in rapid succession at a precisely set temperature and they are consistently perfect without trying very hard; I can do this because the BDB has a heating element in the group head itself and a separate PID for it.
Regarding Breville's "zero customer service", it's well documented that many people have sent in their years-old, previous version (BES900XL) for the $350 out-of-warranty repair. They were sent brand new, latest version machines!
Here's an interesting and entertaining thread on HB started by a guy who put off buying a $7500 La Marzocco GS/3 because the BDB has the same temp stability and shot-profiling ability for a fraction of the cost:
https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-five-years-on-t45361.html
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DanaB
climber
CO
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Does the Aeropress really deliver an expresso shot?
No.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Sorry Sredni, that was not my intention. But to pronounce that the Krups makes good espresso in a thread where someone is asking for advice is just wrong because it really doesn't. If someone is financially constrained but still wants to make decent espresso the used market has lots of equipment at really good prices.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. If it can deliver water at the right temperature, and deliver sufficient pressure as it claims, it would certainly be possible to make excellent espresso. The crux of course would be getting a good, consistent grind, which you simply can't do without a significant outlay of cash (either relatively inexpensive high-end hand-grinder or a motorized home grinder). And then you need the optimum dose for the setup, and a level, firm tamp.
The OP was asking about "best bang for the buck" so it certainly fits the bill! I bet I could make a better espresso on it than what you'd get at a whole lot of coffee shops out there. I recently got back from 2 weeks in Spain, and unless I was at a renowned, high end espresso bar, almost all of the espresso drinks I had were absolute shite and undrinkable - despite being made with espresso machines that cost 5 figures.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Man I thought I was a coffee snob! Because I've been making espresso at home for about 2 decades. But I guess I'm an amateur. I actually make Lattes so I'm not a real coffee drinker anyway, but I'd guess they are more tolerant of not perfectly made espresso.
I'd be careful about getting too hung up on what constitutes a "drinkable" cup of coffee, because then you wouldn't get any enjoyment out of a cup of regular coffee at a friends house, camping, etc.
I used to use a french press for camping, but recently switched to a drip thing with a paper filter because it's so much easier to clean. There's a balance between time/hassle required and quality IMO.
There's also the issue of trapping diterpenes with a paper filter, they supposedly are bad for you, and you get them if you drink unfiltered espresso.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Whenever I watch Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee, I need to make an espresso, no matter what time it is.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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I'd be careful about getting too hung up on what constitutes a "drinkable" cup of coffee, because then you wouldn't get any enjoyment out of a cup of regular coffee at a friends house, camping, etc.
Ha! It's pretty hard to screw up filter drip or press pot coffee - would still be acceptable even if the beans were past their prime.
However, a horribly bitter espresso (caused by over extraction, etc) whose bitterness can knott be tamed with any amount of milk is just that: horribly bitter and knott drinkable. My GF who is way less picky than me wholly concurs. ;-)
BTW, I usually make a latte for breakfast. Here's the one from this morning:
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sos
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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DelhiDog,
Aeropress isn't in the same category as espresso. If you want to drink your coffee and not merely sip an espresso (which, for me, takes about 30 seconds and then I sit there feeling very sad and wonder where it all went) -- aeropress is aces. A breville or a technivorm will brew just as well but those machines take up a lot of counterspace and if you drink just 16oz at a time, the AP does the job well. The other reason for AP as compared to mokapot or espresso is the paper filter..... cleaner cup passes fewer diterpenes and is better for the blood. I drink a lot of coffee or, as I like to say, "water is for amateurs."
"Life is just one cup of coffee after another, and don't look for anything else." ---Bertrand Russell.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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This should be on the "first world problems" thread....but trying to find a good shot of espresso is probably universal, except the need to have an expensive machine. Carry on.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Dec 15, 2018 - 07:14am PT
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Happy Hanukkah to me
Now what?!
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