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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 22, 2019 - 07:30pm PT
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The men on the Stone Mountain monument were decent, honorable men. They were praised as such, even by their bitter enemies, during their lifetimes and long thereafter. If you're going to tear down recognitions of such people because they didn't agree with you ideologically, you've got a LOT of work ahead of you.
Decent, honorable men. Who believed niggers were subhuman, and therefore not worthy of anything but slavery. Human garbage. To be tortured or killed if they tried to escape.
Are you completely devoid of humanity?
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2019 - 07:44pm PT
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The South with all its baggage and propensity to revise history should be severed from the USA and left to fend for itself...
... the place has gone backwards in the past 40 years.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jan 22, 2019 - 08:02pm PT
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Pretty funny coming from one of the whitest States in the Union.
Vermont - Black people are not welcome.
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2019 - 08:17pm PT
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Eddie, born in the South and grew up right next to it...
... pretty funny if your finding reasons to defend the indefensible...
😊😊😊
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jan 22, 2019 - 08:43pm PT
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Been a bit since you were back in the South?
A lot has changed in 40 years, the Bubba's and the Billy Bob's are waning in numbers while the number of foreign inhabitants has skyrocketed. Hard to point to good-old-boys when over half your neighborhood is from Europe or Asia.
My hometown of Greenville started in the 80's with Michelin and BMW who brought in their middle and upper management and their families from their home countries.
I was last in South Carolina visiting Mom two years and was astounded how many of my old neighborhoods were now populated with non-natives - a noticeable majority in the cases of the upscale parts of town. This link lists the over 1200 foreign companies doing business is this one Southern state.
https://dc.statelibrary.sc.gov/handle/10827/18144 - open the pdf for the list.
It is so tempting, and frankly, intellectually lazy, to paint the South as "that place" when in reality, the majority of the major cities are just as metropolitan and diverse as any enlightened East Coast/West Coast bastion you can name.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Jan 22, 2019 - 08:43pm PT
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Yankees were....
Decent, honorable men. Who believed (native americans) were subhuman, and therefore not worthy of anything (even slavery). Human garbage. To be tortured or killed if they tried to escape.
Are you completely devoid of humanity?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 22, 2019 - 08:47pm PT
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The men on the Stone Mountain monument were decent, honorable men. They were praised as such, even by their bitter enemies, during their lifetimes and long thereafter. If you're going to tear down recognitions of such people because they didn't agree with you ideologically, you've got a LOT of work ahead of you.
Completely explains your hero worship of the Al-Queda lads that flew the planes on 911. Certainly brave.
Where you you plan their monuments be carved, El Cap?
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2019 - 08:47pm PT
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It is so tempting, and frankly, intellectually lazy, to paint the South as "that place" when in reality, the majority of the major cities are just as metropolitan and diverse as any enlightened East Coast/West Coast bastion you can name.
Yup, but the way political power works out the urban areas get less representation than the bubba-laden rural areas where life remains essentially the same..
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jan 23, 2019 - 06:37am PT
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It is so tempting, and frankly, intellectually lazy, to paint the South as "that place" when in reality, the majority of the major cities are just as metropolitan and diverse as any enlightened East Coast/West Coast bastion you can name.
Thanks, Ricky D.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 23, 2019 - 09:24am PT
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Personally, I find either the extremes here...remove and erase, vs. retain and accept...to be generally unacceptable for many of the reasons the antagonists to a given argument identify.
However one prefers to regard the Civil War in the role of American History, it was an event that happened, and played a major role in how we have evolved as a country. That kind of event cannot, and should not, be simply scrubbed from all public recognition, at least for the simple reason that humans have a nasty tendency to forget lessons learned long ago, and repeat those mistakes.
Is there any kind of reasonable middle ground here, that honors the reality of this awful war, and the lessons learned there? It seems to me that monuments that primarily feature the military personalities who led the war action itself are somewhat secondary (not intending to demean them, personally) to the principles that drove and evolved from the war.
We, as a country, need to remember this war. Isn't there some way to do that, in a place that people can visit and remember or learn?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 23, 2019 - 09:35am PT
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Well said, Ap. Soldiers don’t go off to war humming slogans. They fight, often initially not by
choice, for their homeland and ultimately for their comrades.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Jan 23, 2019 - 10:39am PT
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Yankees were....
Decent, honorable men. Who believed
...in taking you away from your family and culture and forced you to not use your native tongue to become civilized in their schools.
...in stealing Japanese civilians property and placing them in camps. Or you could join the military if you were deemed fit for it.
...in invading sovereign nations.
Yep, we need to be reminded that beneath the glossy surface of nationalistic pride we are still suckers for fake one-upmanship.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 23, 2019 - 10:40am PT
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The Vietnam War Memorial comes to mind as a memorial to a very controversial war that, in it's design, is neutral in it's judgment about the nature of the war, yet commemorates a value that all Americans have in common- the people who fought in it.
Could such a similar monument be created for the Civil War, and perhaps replace these more controversial monuments? I doubt it, but it's a fine ideal- there are undoubtedly too many people who prefer to remain dug into their views (or 'hide in the shadows' of the current monuments) to accept anything but their own interests. The politics would be horrendous.
Wars and politics (and forums!) have at least one thing in common: people just like to fight.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Jan 23, 2019 - 11:13am PT
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The Northern Industrialists wanted to go to war to make $$$. They could have cared less about rights. Lincoln didn't give a sh#t about the natives, no one did.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jan 23, 2019 - 11:19am PT
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Wars and politics (and forums!) have at least one thing in common: people just like to fight.
I disagree on the actual real fighting/killing thing. Most people do not want to be burned/mutilated nor have all their children eviscerated on battlefields around the world. That's an unthinkable thing for 99.9% of us.
What makes it palatable is the utter nonsense and BS that always forms the propaganda arm of such conflicts arranged and paid for by the other .1% of us who wholly want and encourage such evil atrocities. The marketing/advertising cloaks such murder in palatable terms. ~700,000 people did not die in the Civil War so the "slaves would be free". Even though that's the nonsense we're still fed to this day. Slavery was doomed already by that point.
Remind us again how evil the Vietnamese are? The Russians (oh wait, that's coming back!), the Koreans, the Japanese? Turrorists everywhere in the Middle East! All those evil goat-herding Afghans...
'Murica! Thank you for your service!!! Although it's a human failing that's certainly not historically cornered by Americans. We just happen to be the biggest bully now.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 23, 2019 - 12:00pm PT
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"Most people do not want to be burned/mutilated nor have all their children eviscerated on battlefields around the world."
Yeah, maybe 'war' was not a reasonable inclusion in that statement.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Jan 23, 2019 - 12:17pm PT
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The United states has a role to fill in history. That role could not happen if the country was split into two nations. The flag and everything we stand for is indicative of that role. We are the best and we are the worst. Such is the human condition.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Jan 23, 2019 - 12:17pm PT
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Seems to me that Confederate monuments erected in the nineteenth century aftermath of the American Civil War represent history and ought to be left alone.
But many (most) Confederacy monuments were erected much later--seventy, eighty, ninety, one hundred years. Let's face it, these later so-called monuments were put up to remind, badger, intimidate southern blacks who were doing little more than demanding their Constitutional rights long overdue. I have no problem tearing down twentieth century monuments to intimidation.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jan 23, 2019 - 12:19pm PT
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A reasonable reply right there.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 24, 2019 - 04:10pm PT
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Actually, the climbing on Stone Mountain is pretty poor. Lichen infested smooth slopes without the tiny edges you might find elsewhere. The best would be on the carved memorial, where the rock is fresher and more fractured.
Opening the carving to climbing would be a nice gesture, putting things in perspective.
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