Mercy and Forbearance

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Messages 1 - 53 of total 53 in this topic
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 18, 2018 - 08:03am PT
You had better hope your friends and family have the former because the State will no longer provide the latter.

It's like Fuk You Part A (the tax cuts for the wealthy) and Fuk You Part B (the dismantling of the The New Deal and the Great Society).

Through the recent and calculated expansion of the deficit and national debt, an atmosphere of economic panic will be manipulated to change public sentiment regarding entitlements.

My single mom waited tables, came home late at night and struggled to feed three children. Yet public assistance allowed her to go to real estate school and by diligence and hard work she became financially successful. As a result, we as a family have offset that government investment many times over by way of consumption and tax revenue.

With the help of Hospice and Medicare, I was able to take care of my Dad in his last months of life. Without this assistance I would have had a brutal choice- temporarily close my business and layoff my employees or leave my Dad to the State and let his meager estate rack up huge debt. Fortunately I had to do neither and we scrapped through and I was there the for him to the end. Thanks to the assistance provided by the State the economy enjoyed the participation of my company and employees throughout. Meanwhile, how many corporations have sought forbearance through Chapter 11 Bankruptcy?

I fear that these calculations will not be part of tbe debate so climb safe folks and treat your children well- you'll need them.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Oct 18, 2018 - 08:07am PT
and people who vote republican will be hurt the most because they didn't see it coming.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 18, 2018 - 08:19am PT
The undereducated core of the Trump base will suffer most because they are most in need of a safety net. They are driven more by nativism, xenophobia and racism than by their real self interests which they are too ignorant to recognize.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 18, 2018 - 08:43am PT
What he said.
.. but they will also not 😩’get’ why they are in the boat they will float in
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:23am PT

Historically there will always be hell to pay.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:33am PT
McConnell is to blame for carrying on with this charade.

You are transparent to us Mitch.
Trump

climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
Nicely said. Thanks for your care and kindness to your family.

Hope we can plan to have some mercy and forebearance for those Trump voters when they need it from us. If we the government aren’t going to take care of other people, it’s going to be left to we the people to do it.

Let’s plan to be up to the job, the same way you were for your dad, and the same way we hope our kids will be for us.

When times are tough we don’t need to retreat to a smaller tribe, the way the current political climate is encouraging us all to do, we need to build our sense of belonging to a bigger tribe.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
Wow Trump, words to live by. Thank you!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 18, 2018 - 01:05pm PT
Jim, having an ear to both sides I really believe it's more complex than your sentence, much more complex. If only both "sides" would try to understand the concerns of each and then find middle ground. I think that's what Mohatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. sought. To alienate or cut off dialogue accomplishes nothing.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 01:44pm PT
Very complex issue. I don't know if attempting to hash it out on the ST is a fruitful approach.

The motivations of Trump, McConnell and Ryan are all verrrry suspect.

cragnshag

Social climber
Gilroy
Oct 18, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
The Republican senators/congresspeople and Democrat senators/congresspeople are one and the same, really. They whip up their bases with their party rhetoric - as evidenced by the political discourse here on the Taco.

But when it comes down to it, these politicians are all wealthy elites who belong to the same golf clubs, send their kids to the same private schools, and enjoy the same recent tax cuts for the wealthy.

Their primary mission is to get re-elected. Then they use their power and influence to make more money for themselves and their family. Which seems to be what most humans do, given the chance. Who here is against making more money and providing a better life for their family? So we have to acknowledge that this behavior is normal and find creative ways to get these politicians to put country first, personal gain second.

One thing is for sure, they (R's and D's together) are borrowing us into oblivion. Bill Clinton (and congress at the time) were the only politicians in the past 50 years to make the debt clock run backwards, if only for a short while. It has been running forward ever since and seems to gain speed with every new administration.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/



At least the R's and D's agree on one thing: keeping the masses whipped up as a distraction from the bigger problems of fiscal mismanagement.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 18, 2018 - 02:06pm PT
Lynne, you may recall that when Obama came to office he tried to reach out to the other side. He spoke loftily about the good of the nation and working together, through compromise, for the betterment of all.
The republicans in congress shut him down completely...there was no small amount of racism involved. The republican party, in it’s current iteration, is intellectually and morally bankrupt.
They have shown no inclination to work for the common good and they have made concerted efforts to end or curtail programs that benefit the less fortunate....a pax to them!
Tom Patterson

Trad climber
Seattle
Oct 18, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
In the meantime, perhaps we can find a way to flip McConnell onto his back? Once a turtle has been turned upside down, they'll spend all their energy--unsuccessfully--trying to right themselves. It'd be a way to keep him sidelined.

I don't know...just spitballin'...could be just crazy enough to work.
Tom Patterson

Trad climber
Seattle
Oct 18, 2018 - 02:10pm PT
And contractor: Thanks for painting such a vivid picture of what you'll never hear from anyone in the GOP, and for the heartfelt and moving picture of how your family benefited from assistance, and how you cared for your dad.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 18, 2018 - 02:48pm PT
A good point, Jim, and just what I'm seeing. Neither of the Dos Grandes wants to talk. Not during Obama's time and not now. It will someday cost both parties. I hope not our nation.

I still firmly believe if some common sense people were in government with no links to greed and/or power our nation would thrive. If not, it could be a pox to all.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 18, 2018 - 03:16pm PT
Go to another part of the world and see how terrible the system is here.

We have terrible first-world problems, and we have everyone to blame for them.

(We put our mother into hospice many years ago. Remarkably, she got better and now lives in her own apartment, with some service support.)

It's sort of like when you get cancer. At first, you feel as though the entire universe has singled you out for pain and suffering. If you make it out of that with all of your experience (physical and mental insults), you come to realize that much of what you have gone through, occur to many many other people--and in many of those instances far worse.

Relax. Just be here now.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 18, 2018 - 03:17pm PT
Lynne, I have been to around 60 countries and my takeaway has been that the common people I meet are better than their governments. If people in government genuinely served to the best of their ability for the betterment of their people the world would be a better place. As we all know, that is not generally the case.

Having said that, I also believe that in multi party systems we do have choices that can make a difference. My cynicism doesn’t extend to the point where I think that it doesn’t matter who is in power. The abysmal performance (in so many ways) of the Republican Party has made it an easy choice for me.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 18, 2018 - 03:28pm PT
donini: . . . my takeaway has been that the common people I meet are better than their governments. 

What does this mean? Individuals are better than groups? People with no authority and responsibility are better than those who have authority and responsibility? Huh?

Maybe you could cite some respectable research or sumthin?

If people in government genuinely served to the best of their ability for the betterment of their people the world would be a better place. As we all know, that is not generally the case.

You don’t know either of these. The last conclusion is specious and begs the question. How could one know such things and make conclusive claims?

You’re venting.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 18, 2018 - 03:33pm PT
Lynne, you may recall that when Obama came to office he tried to reach out to the other side. He spoke loftily about the good of the nation and working together, through compromise, for the betterment of all.
The republicans in congress shut him down completely

That's a nice talking point. Unfortunately it's not true. He told the GOP leadership to take a hike when they pushed for changes in the Recovery Act.

"I won."

The message was clear. It set the tone.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Oct 18, 2018 - 03:35pm PT
Jim, having an ear to both sides I really believe it's more complex than your sentence, much more complex. If only both "sides" would try to understand the concerns of each and then find middle ground. I think that's what Mohatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. sought. To alienate or cut off dialogue accomplishes nothing.
Lynne, Your message should be communicated to the GOP; and your references to Gandhi, and King will not resonate with said members of the aforementioned party.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
This is a test of the soul really. Are you going to give in to the fear that someone is getting something for free on your dime or are you going to focus on the power of a community and get involved (at the ballot box at a minimum)?

So before you declare that the Government is the worst vehicle for a safety net please consider our Federal first responders and portions of our military, including medical untits and the duty they have provided to us all while under government management and civilian oversight. Try to imagine the corrupt, pork-boondoggle if a Halliburton was providing those services.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 18, 2018 - 05:19pm PT
EdwardT and Tenb4me, this is a good example of the point I have been trying to make for years.

Some say that President Obama was shut down by the Republicans, others that President Obama shut down the Republicans. So here we have the crux on both sides....us against them.

This country must find middle ground or we may be doomed. What the heck is so hard about compromise?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 18, 2018 - 05:37pm PT
What does this mean? Individuals are better than groups? People with no authority and responsibility are better than those who have authority and responsibility? Huh?

What it means is plainly obvious, but if you want to play "I'm cleverer than you are", feel free.

You don’t know either of these.

Yes, he does. As does anyone rooted in reality.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 05:56pm PT
Sorry, but one side is to blame far more than the other.

There is no bothsidism here.


The republicans have been waging a war on the legitimacy of the Democratic Party for years, becoming full scale since at least Newt Gingrich. They are a minority of the electorate that through sheer ruthlessness controls all three branches of government and have shown no interest in bipartisanship. They have gerrymanderered, blocked people from voting, betrayed norm after norm, encouraged cooperation with Russians, embraced white nationalism, and would be perfectly happy running an autocratic state. That party needs to be destroyed.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 18, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
Contractor,it has been their plan all along ,break the government,end entitlements.

Corpocacy.

WBraun

climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 06:14pm PT
Both Parties are not REMOTELY the same.

Yeah they are!!!!

They are both st00pid corrupt criminals and you st00pid Americans keep supporting them.

St00pid st00pid brainwashed people you are .....
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 18, 2018 - 06:18pm PT
dirtbag, "that party needs to be destroyed."

Really.....pretty serious statement.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
It needs to be destroyed. Absolutely. It is a threat to democracy.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 18, 2018 - 06:40pm PT
EdwardT and Tenb4me, this is a good example of the point I have been trying to make for years.

Some say that President Obama was shut down by the Republicans, others that President Obama shut down the Republicans. So here we have the crux on both sides....us against them.

This country must find middle ground or we may be doomed. What the heck is so hard about compromise?

My point was to simply refute Jim's claim that Obama was all about bipartisan support, when he told the GOP to piss off on day three of his presidency. The Republicans are definitely less cooperative than the Dems. But let's quit portraying the Dems as a bunch of saints.

I agree with you that we need more cooperation and less adversity. If this forum is any indication of the left's mindset, then nothing will happen. Numerous posters here seem to think bridging the divide is a non-starter because they have nothing in common with those stupid, deplorable, racist, scumbag right-wingers... "that party needs to be destroyed".

IOW their own myopic bigotry prevents progress.
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Oct 18, 2018 - 06:41pm PT
I see very little Mercy and a lot of Forbearance in the future of this thread, given the reactive -vs- active state of being of the majority here.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Oct 18, 2018 - 07:02pm PT
A lot of the right vs left thing is just a smokescreen to divert people from the fact that large corporations are picking their pockets and the rich are not paying their fair share of the govt expenditures.
The Republicans are worse but that does not make the Democrats good.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
A lifelong republican (and still a conservative) who recently pulled the wool from his eyes and sees the party for what it is now:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/10/08/the-dark-side-of-american-conservatism-has-taken-over/
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
-.-

10-4
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 18, 2018 - 08:32pm PT
Mercy me, isn’t it a shame that forebearance is no longer a quality held by many.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Oct 18, 2018 - 08:41pm PT

Crime and Punishment

War and Peace

Pride and Prejudice

Cheech and Chong

Shake and Bake
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
Dead and gone


Oops


Wishin' and hopin'

skywalker1

Trad climber
co
Oct 18, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
These tax cuts are great (I don't see them), its this social security entitlement that is bringing the country down. You mean the one I've paid into since age 12? Give me a f#ckin break.

S....
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:16pm PT
What the heck is so hard about compromise?

Once again, Lynne, this is a question for the republicans
Lituya

Mountain climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:24pm PT
Lynne, you may recall that when Obama came to office he tried to reach out to the other side. He spoke loftily about the good of the nation and working together, through compromise, for the betterment of all.
The republicans in congress shut him down completely...

History fail? Democrats had complete control of Congress during Obama's first two years. So much more than ObamaCare he could have accomplished--but didn't.

My cynicism doesn’t extend to the point where I think that it doesn’t matter who is in power. The abysmal performance (in so many ways) of the Republican Party has made it an easy choice for me.

You tied in with McNamara and LBJ once, right?
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
Ain't Social Security my friends it's the war machine
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Oct 19, 2018 - 06:13am PT
Wait, what? He told a pack of bullies to take a hike when they pushed? Oh, poor GOP... they were always so nice to the opposing side when they were in power. It must have crushed them to be told off when they pushed and tried to bully.

So all that talk about reaching out to the other side. Speaking loftily about the good of the nation and working together, through compromise, for the betterment of all...

It was all a load of crap. Barry was lying.

Right?

Thanks for clearing that up, xcon.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Oct 19, 2018 - 06:26am PT


Compromise with arrogance will not happen.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 19, 2018 - 06:53am PT
So what happens if the GOP repeals obamacare and cuts funding for social security...? Will the free market swoop in and rescue the millions of Americans that fell thru the cracks...?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 19, 2018 - 08:39am PT
A lot of the right vs left thing is just a smokescreen to divert people from the fact that large corporations are picking their pockets and the rich are not paying their fair share of the govt expenditures.
The Republicans are worse but that does not make the Democrats good.

Worth repeating. It will stay that way until we get money out of politics.
Trump

climber
Oct 19, 2018 - 08:41am PT
This country must find middle ground or we may be doomed. What the heck is so hard about compromise?

Good question, because it seems like it is honestly so very hard. And I think honestly acknowledging the way it’s hard for other people, and noticing the ways it’s hard for us, would probably be beneficial in overcoming it.

I think it has a lot to do with identity - our identity gets wrapped up in our beliefs, and our belief tribes, and we start to build walls of beliefs to defend our other beliefs, and to defend our belief tribes, and our identity as a righteous member of our belief tribe (in contrast to those deplorables in the other one), and to enjoy the (often psychological) benefits of being a member in good standing in our tribe.

It also probably has a lot to do with the advantages of cheating. If you can give less and get more, that’s an advantage to you individually. If that’s something that your environment let’s you get away with, then you might just do it. And if other people do it, then you get screwed by trying to act in a way that benefits everyone. Survival of the fittest has been around for an awfully long time, and I think that it’s as deeply ingrained in us as anything can be, probably for good reason.

So I think that there’s an enforcement aspect of it that’s probably important, to ensure that everyone plays fairly. And part of that enforcement aspect plays out by trash talking the other side and trying to make them be socially isolated or feel righteously shamed by their actions (while at the same time propping up our belief tribemates with confirmation of our and our tribe’s own righteousness in comparison), and doing that seems to be something that takes up a lot of people’s time and thought and actions. But the folks in the other tribe also have their own tribal belief defense mechanisms, so that often doesn’t seem to work very well.

And there’s also a belief aspect to it - that we need to build our sense of identity as all belonging to the same tribe, and that the more effectively we can do that, the more we’ll be invested to work for other people’s benefit, regardless of the differences that we (used to) use to identify our tribal allegiances. For me personally, as a white parent of other people’s black and brown children (well, they used to be only other people’s :-) ), I’m kind of more in favor of that.

But neither seems to be working all that well in the current environment.

A lot of it I think comes down to humility, and that’s not something that is very often favored or rewarded. It doesn’t do much good to believe what you believe if you don’t believe that you’re right. And if you’re right, why compromise? And we always believe that we’re right. Sometimes we probably are.

It is hard, and I admire people who are willing to acknowledge that it’s hard for other people, and who are willing to try to overcome how hard it is for themselves.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 19, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
Hey, Ghost,

If you know something, say it. Saying that this or that is “obvious” is a cop-out. A response like that isn’t clever. It might be lazy.

I guess all of our problems would be rectified by turning over the reigns to just regular folks, huh?

Unfortunately, most conventional worldly problems that governments seem to be wrestling with are complicated, and sometimes remarkably complex: e.g., health services, poverty, crime, other governments with different objectives or values, limited scarce resources, education, and so on. Honest and sincere people from all walks of life have different opinions and tend to be self-serving rather than altruistic (no matter how much you pay them).

There appears to be great need and room for open minds, expertise, intelligence, wisdom, and dialogue. It’s unclear to me that common folk are engaged on those fronts.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2018 - 06:17am PT
A caravan of Nordic women was seen heading towards the US border from Canada. I wonder what Trump will do!?

Anyways, this should not be a voting issue. Eventhough I'm not religious in the least, attention to the REAL teachings of Christ would be a good start to your day. If I'm not mistaken, he was obsessed with helping the poor.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Nov 6, 2018 - 11:10am PT
Some Republicans find a lot of fault with their own party:

Sully: 'As A Former Republican, I've Already Voted. And I Voted For Democrats.'
Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger knows that this is the most significant election of a generation. And there's only one party to vote for to get us out of this mess. https://crooksandliars.com/2018/11/sully-former-republican-ive-already-voted

Longtime John McCain Aide Urges Americans To ‘Rebuke’ Donald Trump And Vote Democrat
Mark Salter, the late Arizona Republican’s former chief of staff, called on voters to “resist” for the country’s sake. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/john-mccain-mark-salter-vote_us_5be1b61be4b09d43e3234812


Arnold Schwarzenegger Compares Republican Party to the Titanic: 'It Is Dying' http://toofab.com/2018/03/24/arnold-schwarzenegger-republican-party-is-dying-titanic/


"Former California GOP Congressman Seeks to Launch New Political Party" https://timesofsandiego.com/politics/2018/09/22/former-california-gop-congressman-seeks-to-create-new-political-party/


"Former Republican Sen. John W. Warner has once again crossed party lines to endorse Democrat Abigail Spanberger in her tight race against GOP Rep. Dave Brat in Virginia’s 7th Congressional District.
Mr. Warner this week also threw his support behind Leslie Cockburn’s quest for the open seat in the 5th Congressional District, where the Democrat is running against Republican Denver Riggleman."
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/nov/2/former-gop-sen-john-warner-endorses-rep-brats-demo/


There’s gotta be a reason why Republican stalwarts are abdicating the party.

Bill Kristol, founder of the influential conservative magazine, The Weekly Standard, is today a leading voice of Republican opposition. Political commentator and author, George Will, once a staunch, articulate defender of the conservative movement, is urging Republicans to vote against the GOP in November.

Well-known conservative commentators, David Brooks and Max Boot, along with former conservative talk show host Charlie Sykes, all advocate against the party. Says Brooks: “Today you can be a conservative or a Republican, but you can’t be both.” Boot, author of The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right, now refers to his former party as the “white-nationalist party.” Sykes recently published How the Right Lost Its Mind.

Former national GOP operatives are also strident critics. Nicolle Wallace, who worked for George W. Bush and John McCain, says the party’s “volume business of misogyny is making moderate Republican women near extinct.”

Steve Schmidt, once named GOP Campaign Manager of the Year, renounced his party membership, saying the GOP is “filled with feckless cowards who disgrace and dishonor the legacies of the party’s greatest leaders.”
http://www.salina.com/news/20181105/why-are-gop-stalwarts-leaving
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Nov 6, 2018 - 02:00pm PT
The GOP used dog whistles and coded language with a nod and a wink for years to rile up their base, then people started to act on what was believed by the conservative leaders to be "harmless rhetoric". These same conservatives that are aghast today were part of the con that got out of control, and they deserve a special place in hell for getting us to where we are today.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 6, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
I could not agree more.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:52pm PT
The Donald was on a roll during the run-up to this mid-term election . . . you have to give him credit, he is one heck of a campaigner! Unfortunately bluster without affirmation is just another lie.

God Bless America!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 10, 2018 - 04:05pm PT
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2018 - 07:30am PT
Macron nailed it
"Patriotism is the exact opposite of nationalism: nationalism is a betrayal of patriotism,"

"By pursuing our own interests first, with no regard to others', we erase the very thing that a nation holds most precious, that which gives it life and makes it great: its moral values."


Furthermore; Our fellow World leaders braved falling water (also known as rain) to pay homage to the soldiers who fought and died to the bloody end of World War I, 100 years ago.

Trump was seen tweeting in the warmth and dryness of his Presidential suite.


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