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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 17, 2018 - 06:10pm PT
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One of The really sad aspects of the Holts/ Dartmouth misadventure is that the climbs were all labled as sport climbs and Sport climbing was labled as bad. Ironicly there were quite a few stellar traditional ground up mixed climbs that got the chop along with all the great sport climbs. I have a hard time pictureing any self respecting trad climber chopping for money a climb that was established ground up in good style.
Good Country For Old Men was a great 40m 5.7 later shortened to 30m by installing a bolted top anchor that allowed you to skip 10m of grassy mossy RX crap to the oak tree. I bolted this rope solo ground up a few days before my 50th birthday. None of us had ventured anywhere up on this section of the cliff so this was a grand adventure in the thick of black fly and tick season. It ended up with one bolt that I would not have placed had I top roped the climb before bolting. the bolt was however not offensive enough for me to seriously consider removeing it. Keep in mind that on FA's in the North East it is quite dirty, loose and much, much more scary than the climb is when you get to experience it after a nice wire brushing and some shiny new hardware to clip. Curtis Cote follows Good Country For old Men 5.7 Now Chopped.Mad Man 5.10c was an absolute 5 star classic. The upper 2 pitches nothing special but the 35m 1st pitch was amazeing. Ground up with zero inspection a good mix of trad and bolts with some very exiting moves. I took a pretty big and exciting screamer up there with the drill and FA kit hanging off my ass when a bird beak blew. My belayer declared that I was a Mad Man. Isa on the 2nd ascent of Mad Man 5.10c Now Chopped.
Climber on Mad Man. it goes up that right faceing corner/ flake to super thin sporty face climbing.
I wonder if the choppers climbed it before they chopped it? I wonder if they had a thought of what it must have felt like to lead that pitch with no fixed hardware to aim for? What it must have felt like when it was dirty as heck and nothing to clip. I was always pretty scared leading this thing but would tell myself, Dude, you already did that move when it was covered in lichen, there was no bolt to clip after the move and you had a 20 lb drill hanging off your ass.
Women are Smarter 5.7 was a great very obscure and hard to find moderate that I talked 76 year old Jed into holding my rope on the FA. Isa was a wee bit smarter than Jed and figured it was going to be a heinous adventure. It was about 90 degrees F with 90% humidity and prime black fly and tick season. First we led Good Country and then scrambled up the grass and moss X gully to the traverse tree ledge. A nasty move or two across the gully climbers left of Two Boys (now sports a fixed rope) and we found this mixed gem now chopped. I led it and drilled it ground up. Jed follows the FA of Women are Smarter 5.7
Way to go boys. Chop a 76 year old senior citizens ground up FA. Good Job.
We Got The Funk 5.10+ 85m is another 3 star classic. Now Chopped. No preview , ground up. I always felt the start was over bolted and had toyed with the idea of cleaning it up. It was so crumbly and dirty for the first 25ft on the FA that I resorted to the drill a bit faster than I would have liked. Did not feel like the little red BD TCU thingy would hold anything real in that sandy crumbly stuff at the start. Once it got cleaned up and we got it wired I toyed with the idea of removeing the 1st two bolts. Anyways the bolts higher on the climb were critical. Especially on P2 now chopped.. The FA of P2 of We Got The Funk. This was a bit sporty with all the FA crap hanging off my butt and the fridgid November temps. Jim was a trooper on the belay while I elvis legged away up there.
Jim did a great job freeing the pitch. Jim on the FFA
Krampus 5.10a. 35m super cool 4 star ground up mixed climb. Now Chopped. I am really interested if the Choppers climbed this before chopping it??? possibly a tiny bit over bolted at the start but I could have easily changed that. The bolts in the middle quite important though as was the top anchors.. This was one of my favorites. steep and a great variety of climbing. Thin slab, steep face, cool thought provokeing overlap and a nice steep finger crack at the top. That was very exciteing to equip ground up. The upper half of the pitch was all trad and super fun. It was super sketchy standing on the licheny sloping ledge way above my last piece with no hand holds trying to pull the drill up on a tag line to drill the top anchors. The FFA of Krampus 10a. now Chopped.
these are just a few of the climbs that were destroyed.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 17, 2018 - 06:15pm PT
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Who did this?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
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If you are wondering how ground up FA's end up with epoxy bolts on them it happens 2 ways. #1 I decide that rock is too soft for a wedge bolt so after the FA is complete I climb it again. Funk out the offending bolt and replace with a glue in. this only happened a few times. the rock had some really sandy sections that were often quite isolated.
#2 I decided right from the start that it was going to be an epoxy bolt. I placed the epoxy bolt on lead, down climbed to last bolt and bailed for the day.
Placeing epoxy bolt on lead for a sport climb
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
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John. town of Lyme found out that they did not own the cliff. there was a ton of misinformation before that vote not the least of which that the cliff was Dartmouth property, Not Town Of Lyme property.
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Aeriq
Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
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Sep 17, 2018 - 06:32pm PT
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Tradman - why did you not post a link that explains the reason?
That was a little irritating - making it about you.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
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One of the stellar sport climbs that was chopped. This was one of the best 10s in the North east.
Mad Woman 5.10c 35m Chopped.
The Pumpy start thought provokeing super thin face in the middle Gunning for the chains
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 17, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
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Have met 5 climbers who attended Dartmouth. Liars and cheats to the man.
Is it in their culture?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Sep 17, 2018 - 06:38pm PT
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wow! That's way jacked up. Vandalism.
So the article indicates the board from the town of Lyme, NH performed the damage to the rock.
The towns board members are identified in their annual report, along with their official contact numbers. It seems a gentle letter suggesting that town revenue could have been enhanced and that any residential issues could have been handled with signage/permits or working with the climbing community, might be in order.
SelectBoard Charles J. Smith, Chair Susan J. MacKenzie Bradford E. Keith
Select BoardMeetings: Thursday 8:00am-Town Office Conference Room Select Board Office Hours:Monday throughFriday 8:00 am -4:00 pm
Administrative Assistant Dina Cutting…….……………………………...…….795-4639 (Fax) 795-4637
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
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I did not post links to the many news articles because every single one that I read was full of lies propogated by one of the landowners that is 600ft from the cliff. Most of the climbs were too hard for him and some unfortunate things happened to sour him to the group that was climbing there. Regardless the vote was non binding as the town does not own the property. Fence was never cut, fires if they were made was never climbers and more likely residents of canan ledge lane. the tree cutting incident was very unfourtunate and condemned by all the climbers except for the 3 perps. Not ME. Climate being what it is in the north east the tree cutting has completely grown in and not noticeable now unless you are really looking for it. and in all reality miniscule compared to what was embraced as progress and heroic work over in kinsman knotch. The bottom line was that after a 2 year closure to let things cool down Dartmouth had the opertunity to work with CLIME and the Access fund and come up with a management plan that could have addressed the needs of the town and preserved the climbing. . instead they had a couple hacks chop the whole deal. Sad.
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Aeriq
Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
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Sep 17, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
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Thanks - we don't live there & are not clairvoyant.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 07:14pm PT
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Additionaly we went there yesterday to see what had actually been done and it was very emotional. An incredible amount of blood, sweat, tears and love went into creating these climbs over a period of 5 years. Its a really crappy top rope area BTW with very cryptic approaches and multiple raps through loose dangerous terrain to get to the climbing. once there you need a 70 to 80m rope to TR. One of the reasons I did at least one ground up ascent at each area was because it is so dangerous coming in from the top. . Several areas were completely ground up simply because it was more fun and much less scary than getting there top down....
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 17, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
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Who's the dipsh!t that did this?????
That's NOT chopping ..... but criminal vandalism.
The Dartmouth people that did this are morons ......
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 07:27pm PT
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I had offered to remove the bolts for Lyme police and had scheduled meetings with the police chief to walk the cliffs and go over a plan for the removal. I would have done a professional job. The police never got back to me when they found out that they did not own the cliffs. I don't know who the climbers were that did the chopping but heard that they were paid by Dartmouth?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 17, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
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Seems like you are saying Dartmouth did the deed?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 07:34pm PT
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Jim,the land owners house is 600ft from the nearest cliff. he does not own the cliff. nothing was done on his property. he was super stoked about the climbs in the beginning and was part of the gang for a bit but could not play with all the children and could only lead one of the climbs. He eventually soured on the whole thing for various reasons. some legit,some not. A powerfull political force he turned out to be. A sad drama worthy of a bad soap opera.... or not.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 17, 2018 - 07:42pm PT
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I get the town politics but I do not see Dartmouths motivation to chop. Is there a back story to tell
Edit: I just remember that we stayed at Lyme Inn last winter. Visiting friends in South Straford
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Sep 17, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
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My favorite trespasser excuse, "I didn't think anybody owned this".
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Matt's
climber
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Sep 17, 2018 - 08:13pm PT
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(I went to dartmouth bitd).
sorry if i'm confused-- the cliff is owned by dartmouth? And dartmouth decided to chop (poorly) all the bolts you put up on their property? Or is the cliff owned by the city of Lyme? Or a private landowner?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Sep 17, 2018 - 08:16pm PT
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the land owner read donini's comfort bolt thread and ran with it...
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Sep 17, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
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DOC member Philip Bennett ’19 said that the DOC favors more established climbing spots like those in Rumney
light
Condolences Nick.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 08:38pm PT
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Dartmouth owns the cliff. I am not naming the land owner because it is such a sad story and he was/ is my friend. I thought all along that it was state land leased by Dartmouth for the ski way. Bolting on state land is allowed in NH. There are bolts there dateing back to the eightys and pins much older than that. Dartmouth has a long history of climbing, the area is a popular ice climbing spot, they even have climber specific parking area. I was fairly stunned when the Lyme police contacted me claiming it was town of Lyme property. Turned out it was Dartmouth property all along. I did Dartmouth a huge favor by giving them 25 great climbs. they threw it away for politics. the Spokes person from Dartmouth outing club was a bit clueless and likely never climbed there. 19yrs old and says that the outing club prefers to go to Rumny because it is less impact....
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 17, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
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So sorry to hear about this trad. I have also put over a decade of developing routes. Thankless work specially if your not a 5.14+ climber and sponsored to boot.
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JohnnyG
climber
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Sep 17, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
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I happened to be there when two guys were chopping the last route. Sad moment for a nice spot.
Lots of twist and turns...originally neighbors were stoked, then they were pissed...the town had a plan to leave the bolts, then changed the plan to chop the bolts...people thought the college owned the land, then the town thought they owned the land, then it became clear the college owned the land...LOTS of misinformation in the press and town meetings...some of this an intentional warping of the truth to make climbers look like as#@&%es.
In the end, a few college administrators decided the remove the bolts simply because they were placed without permission. To my knowledge, they had never been to the cliff and certainly had not climbed the routes. They hired a guide from the Gunks to chop the bolts, and he brought along another young climber. The choppers told me they had not climbed the routes.
It's really not appropriate to rip on Dartmouth climbers. Many alums worked super hard to keep the area open. Very hard.
In my opinion, it was rather shallow thinking to remove the bolts. I totally get it. Someone put something on their land without their explicit permission. BUT there a LOTS of examples where climbs and trails are established on private property without permission, and the landowner sees it as ok and lets it go. Even promotes it. This has happened on Dartmouth land. This has happened on land where Dartmouth sends their students on outing club trips (Rumney and Winslow). Even this place had it's older climbing routes written up in a Dartmouth Outing Club guidebook! Even more, this area where the bolts were chopped has had:
 climbing for multiple decades,
climbs put up by Dartmouth students and alums
motivated undergrads loving the new face climbs
regular outing club trips for ice climbing
older climbing routes written up in a Dartmouth Outing Club guidebook
and yearly freshman orientation trips to climb across the street on another landowners property (yep those climbs were established without prior permission)
It was totally reasonable for Tradman to think it was perfectly fine to put up these routes. And everyone who knew about the newer routes totally supported him for years. Sadly, some of them later turned on him.
Tradman - thanks for putting up those routes. You have been a class act throughout the whole ordeal.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 03:42am PT
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to be fair out of the 250 or so bolts chopped they only completely botched about a dozen of them. Obviously the ones they did not have the skill set to remove. I have been hammered quite a bit by a few people who call themselves climbers about the permission issue. I am and always have been respectfull of climbing closures but had certainly never thought about asking permission to climb at places with established climbing and a marked climbers parking area. For those who call themselves climbers and grill me on asking permission.
How many of your heros asked permission to put up all their first ascents?
Heck, we kept our climbs secret in the beginning for that time honored climbing tradition of not wanting to get scooped. We assumed that Dartmouth outing club was full of 20 year old 7ft tall stick people hardmen and women that were going to steal all the good projects from us weak old people. We had no clue that it was just a bunch of top ropers and gumby sport weinies…
Sad that the guide did not climb the ground up climbs before he chopped them. I suppose with google earth on your phone it is no big deal to find the top of a cliff and rap in with a hammer and chisel. I walked up to the base and climbed up.....
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 18, 2018 - 03:47am PT
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Looks like a new Lyme disease....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 03:48am PT
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Additionally it would be interesting to know if the chopping was done between the end of march and Aug 1st? I was accused of disturbing the birds which was completely false but brought up repetedly when making the case for bolt removal. It would be ironic if the bolt removal was done in nesting season when coming in from the top might actually have disturbed the birds.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 18, 2018 - 04:38am PT
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Tradman I'm reserving comment on the Holts Ledge issue.
It shows no respect.
I feel strongly that you deserve an apology from the climbing community.
What was done given your hard work - it is beyond insulting,
but it is your circus.
I asked ___ if I had we had ever climbed there.
We are not naming names ?
ok
but The R_ __ _ _hi__me-s climbed there in the late 50s/60s & again with their children, when their son was attending Dartmouth in 1980s.(Ice & Rock)
(I don't know what was deleted? but something went away?)
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Sep 18, 2018 - 05:32am PT
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Well, there's your problem...
They hired a guide from the Gunks to chop the bolts
For the guy with the house an easy 6 iron shot away from the crag, doesn't he know that Staten Island is a day trip away?
Accidents happen, fires can start anywhere
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Sep 18, 2018 - 08:35am PT
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Sucks, but at least NH is the "Granite State"...so hopefully you can find a new spot. Keep it secret this time....
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nafod
Boulder climber
State college
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Sep 18, 2018 - 08:53am PT
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Sounds like another good climbing spot got loved to death by climbers.
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Trump
climber
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Sep 18, 2018 - 09:04am PT
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That sucks sorry you got burned. Sounds like you put a lot of yourself into that area and I can understand feeling bad with the way it’s worked out.
Sounds like there was a lot of misinformation and miscommunication, resulting in the owner of the property chopping some climbs you had put up without their permission? Other people also have a right to do things their own stupid way, but unfortunately, we also have the right to suffer the consequences of our own mistakes in interacting with them.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 18, 2018 - 10:42am PT
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This thread does no one any good.
I had to get some ten posts into this thread before seeing that the people in Lyme were upset. And then came threats of vandalism. So much spin it makes you dizzy.
Toker:
Deny Eberle, a student at Dartmouth, who climbed the N face of the Matterhorn back in the 60's took it into his head to see if I was an alpine climber. (So much snow and ice falling I could not even see the rock. Cold as a you know what.) I lost interest right there in alpine climbing. I will say this however. These Dartmouth guys can really handle a car. I think it was Gray driving my prized 63 Dodge Dart when he lost control on the ice while headed down hill toward a bridge abutment. He did a controlled drift followed by a bank shot off the snow drift. Went right across a narrow bridge hitting nothing and with no damage. Those guys were some kind of good.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 18, 2018 - 10:43am PT
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At least it's climbing related!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 18, 2018 - 11:06am PT
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Does the area of law regarding "past practice" apply in this situation?
It might be a case of adverse possession, uphill battle though
https://www.lawyersnh.com/adverse-possession-of-property-under-new-hampshire-law/
In order to acquire title to real estate by adverse possession, “the possessor must show twenty years of adverse, continuous, exclusive and uninterrupted use of the land claimed.” O’Hearne v. McClammer, 163 N.H. 430, 435 (2012). Therefore, in order to constitute adverse possession, the property must be used without the actual owner’s permission, and must be used for twenty continuous years.
Occasional use of the property is not sufficient to constitute adverse possession. Additionally, the use must be open and visible enough that the true owner has (or should have) notice of the adverse possession.
Establishing title via adverse possession is difficult. Twenty years is a substantial period of time, and it is often difficult to prove continuous use. Courts construe evidence of adverse possession strictly. Adverse possession is not possible against government land.
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
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Lots of folks working off assumptions...
... something like this is inevitable, especially regarding recreational land use.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:17pm PT
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Did a very small amount of reading on Prescriptive Easements. Five years in California. One link to San Bernardino County vouchsafed that "land owners need to defend themselves." No trespassing signs now make sense to me.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
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"Therefore, in order to constitute adverse possession, the property must be used without the actual owner’s permission, and must be used for twenty continuous years."
What about in cases where the landowner seems to have given permission?,
which seems to be the case per JohnnyG post:
- climbs put up by Dartmouth students and alums
- motivated undergrads loving the new face climbs
- regular outing club trips for ice climbing
- older climbing routes written up in a Dartmouth Outing Club guidebook
- and yearly freshman orientation trips to climb across the street on another landowners property (yep those climbs were established without prior permission)
What was the year of that Club Guidebook?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
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When Nick gets off work he will chime in & correct me . . .
You are all going down a silly rabbit hole.
& it is not my circus I really don't know what happened
from what I;ve read;
The land 'in front' of the Holts was not for sale, then it was.
A "climber" bought it and had a nice house built. Things were fine, at 1st. Then things changed.(grew older, out of climbing?)
Those changes,were brought up again & again.
not limited to, visiting gym-no0bs, trash/TP, noise,
combined with a shift in property values, & the threat
of further decline as the place is great, & would draw crowds,
beyond what the dedicated parking woulds sustain . . .
(The week-end scenes at the Ciffs at Rumney & the Gunks may have been shown for example)
as well as the lack of easy bolted routes, so no fun in his backyard,
**led the person,*
-Trads "friend"- to take steps, make false(-ish) claims . . .
(hyper-liability/ property value concerns?)
use erroneous maps,
tax maps, that were at best, approximations, At worst, wildly incorrect,
To start a drum beat against visitors.
Most old timers never doubted that Holt's Ledges was part of the colleges extended holdings.
Dartmouth climbers & others have climbed there for decades.
now
I hear that a new developer is just moved to town.
He, is a lifer, has experience working with the access fund
(No,Axez,Lawery's R malevolent & distrust fund)
So time will tell.
The place is great for learning Ice Climbing.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:50pm PT
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Also... if you're going to "chop" a climb... esp with glue-ins.
It's 2018
4 1/2" angle grinder + spare batteries + Bag of cutoff wheels.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 18, 2018 - 01:31pm PT
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What about in cases where the landowner seems to have given permission?,
how could they have given permission when they did not realize they owned it until Clyme told them. Everyone thought the town owned it.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 18, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
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Sorry this happened, but you’ll always have the memories of doing the first ascents
For the so-called guide I think someone should reach out to him and say he should come back and clean up the poor job he did. He should have realized he needed to do that when he first came. He should have left the glue wins researched how to do it correctly and came back with the right tools. He was being greedy to do that poor job. If he doesn’t come back and clean it up then I would say publicly name and shame him.
For the land owner: a few flyers placed in the Dartmouth dorm rooms for a BYOB party every Friday and Saturday night the next couple months seems in order.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
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actually everyone thought Dartmouth owned it until town of lyme claimed they owned it. dartmoth has been using that cliff for winter ice climbing classes for decades. for some reason I can't seem to find a shot of the parking area but it has had similer signage as this telling climbers where to park for as long as I can remember..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 02:50pm PT
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I would rather take care of the clean up. Still hopeing that someday Dartmouth will reconsider and possibly allow at least the ground up climbs to be restored. from the choppers I really wish they had climbed the routes first, especially the ground up climbs.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 18, 2018 - 03:07pm PT
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It's 2018
4 1/2" angle grinder + spare batteries + Bag of cutoff wheels. A wireless Dremel tool works well, too.
(We used one once to remove a couple of our bolts,
when we found out that we had strayed onto an existing climb by mistake).
Bummer about your climbs.
And the landowner / ex-climber who became so selfish / fearful.
Looks like you had some good times there.
If it's your best local area, at least you can still toprope....
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Sep 18, 2018 - 03:09pm PT
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My regards tradman.
On my side of the Dacks there is considerable scorn for bolting of any kind. Chopped routes have been ,well,routine.
That said ,a 4 hour drive away in the Northern Tier of Pennsylvania,bolting is encouraged as they like the boost to the economy from more climbers coming around.
Again ,sorry about your work.
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Mr. Rogers
climber
The Land of Make-Believe
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Sep 18, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
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The facts in this case are a bit unclear to me. Let me see if I've got this straight:
1) People have been climbing at Holt's Ledge for decades. Mostly for the ice climbing. I did my first ice lead at Holts back in the late 90s.
2) Since, at least, the late 90s access has been an issue. Parking on Canaan Ledge Lane was always an issue, and at some point ice climbers were told to park at the Dartmouth skiway and walk up the road to the cliff and approach the cliff via the Appalachian Trail/skiway -- not across landowner's private property.
3) Tradman and friends, with the approval of a local landowner (who owned land near the cliff, but not the cliff itself) bolted rock climbing routes on Holt's ledge.
4) A pissing contest ensued, or some other such bullsh#t, and the local landowner rescinded his support for the climbs.
5) The town of Lyme found out about the climbs and believed that the climbers were being disruptive -- chopping trees, cutting trails, fires, etc. These claims may or may not be true. They may or may not be the actions of all climbers, select climbers, or non-climbers.
6) At some point, a climber advocacy organization, CLyme.org, was organized to try and manage climber access to the cliff. I don't believe Tradman was a part of this group, but could be wrong on that point.
7) At some point in the dispute, someone (maybe Clyme? maybe someone else?) argued that the town does not own the cliff, but that Dartmouth College does. I can't tell if this ownership dispute has ever been resolved.
9) In the fall of 2017, the town of Lyme voted to chop the bolts. 143 to 74.
http://www.nhpr.org/post/interest-rock-climbing-soars-lyme-says-not-here#stream/0
https://www.vnews.com/Lyme-to-Hold-Town-Meeting-on-Holt-s-Ledge-12956771
http://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2017/11/lyme-votes-to-cut-holts-ledge-bolts
10) The bolts were chopped. Apparently poorly in some cases. Posts earlier in this thread say it was done at the order of Dartmouth administrators, who (I guess?) now agree that Dartmouth owns the land. But as Lyme voted to chop the bolts back in November, I guess they could have done it too? And it is alleged that a gunks guide was hired to do it?
Have I got that all right?
PS - All you internet lawyers: the chin-stroking about adverse possession is a load of meaningless horsesh#t. Because both parties with potential claims to the land--Dartmouth vs the Town of Lyme--wanted the bolts chopped, then for the purposes of arguing about bolt chopping the actual owner of the land is irrelevant.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 04:18pm PT
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It is clear that Dartmouth owns the cliff. It is clear that Dartmouth arranged for the removal of the bolts. I had arrangements to remove the bolts for the town of Lyme but they then found out that they did not own the cliff. Yes some trees got cut in one incident by 3 phd's that should have known better. no fires were ever made by climbers. there were existing fire pits but none of us ever hung out there to make a fire. that was most certainly one of the residents of canan ledge road or townies. There have been no recent access issues at holts before this event. Climbers have been parking at the ski way since 2004 ish. the one climber that parked at a residents house was invited to park there several days earlier. We were all invited to park there at one point. No I am not part of CLYME. I felt that it would have been too self serving and controversial for me to be part of that organization.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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as far as top ropeing goes I never was real big on top ropeing. especially multi pitch climbs..
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Sep 18, 2018 - 05:36pm PT
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At the very least,you are getting one back....https://cragvt.org/boltondomeproject/
You have a lot of good climbing rock over there,WNY, not so much.
Enjoy
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 18, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
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Horrendous!
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Trump
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 07:54am PT
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In interacting with the city officials who voted to remove bolts on property that they didn’t even understand that they didn’t own, I’m just wondering, did any of them use the term covfefe? We might find that other people don’t behave the way we expect them to, and we might need to readjust our expectations of them in order to achieve the outcomes we prefer. Hope you’re able to become better at that than I am! But sorry that you weren’t able to arrange the outcome you prefer this past go round.
Sounds like you put in a lot of effort doing something that you like to do, and that members of our climbing tribe might have benefitted from, but that other people, maybe people who are not in our climbing tribe, people like the property owner, didn’t want you to do it, and don’t like that you did it. Would have been nice if you had been appreciated for the beneficial side effects of doing what you like to do rather than feeling bad as a result of the detrimental ones that the property owner sees. Thanks for your effort regardless.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 10:11am PT
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Our inordinate increases in climbing population are making access an even more important factor than it was in the past. As has been noted above, public use of private land is a complicated and often emotional issue. One that requires everyone think very carefully before acting. The simple existence of public pressure necessarily forces landowners to deal with that pressure EARLY and this represents an imposed continuing cost in time and money. Holt's Ledge was made even more complicated when Dartmouth began using its property to support its educational programs without putting in place a management effort to deal with the increased public pressure certain to follow.
What has to follow can only be described as "hard work." In the early 70's the Mohonk Trust held a "Climbers' Meeting" to get input on how to approach problems surfacing in the Gunks. That meeting formed the foundation for all that followed. That meeting came EARLY. Something like that meeting might occur were principals in the Access Fund to get together with Dartmouth, Lyme's town officials, and directly affected neighbors to talk over what might be done and how any action might be funded. Its purpose would be for exploration and not that of advocacy. Advocacy is a part of the public input forming the foundation for any and all subsequent direct action.
Which of the principals might best assume the lead on an effort? In the Gunks the owner of the land took on the leading role.
Edit:
I have often wondered why Mohonk welcomed Fritz and Hans as it did, and thus made possible the Gunks as we know them. I think many do not know that Dan Smiley operated the longest continuous weather station in the US. He thought it would be valuable so he just did it. He was a man of action. And I was standing there at the water pipe when he voiced a sardonic comment. Dan was clearly a climber. If he had not been bearing so much responsibility I am convinced Dan would have been a truly fine climber. It was a very great honor for me to work with him.
It is a shame that we realize how lucky we have been, only after we have gotten too old to do anything about it.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Sep 19, 2018 - 04:21pm PT
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Thanks to that guy ,aye,Mr. Stannard.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2018 - 04:22pm PT
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We did have meetings with the access fund and town before we knew the town did not own the cliff. we had a workable plan approved but then one resident with a personal beef started a very strong campaine to get us shut down. lots of lies and exagerations and a ton of pressing the flesh. he was very successful. By the time it got to a vote the sheep just wanted our heads on a stick.
Access is no longer an issue. The cliff is open for climbing. Dartmouth has placed signs directing climbers to stay on Dartmouth property. they just want you to top rope a 90m cliff or stick to the 3 or 4 super scary trad climbs. there are two excellent trad climbs. a 35m desert wide 10+ that still has anchors on top of it. S crack is another hard 10 but more face climbing. fairly spicy and safest to do as one long 60m pitch as the pin belay at 30m sucks. I don't know if the one 35 yr old bolt on the slab at the top survived?? would suck to get up there and find out it was missing.....
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JohnnyG
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 06:40pm PT
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I don't know if the one 35 yr old bolt on the slab at the top survived?? would suck to get up there and find out it was missing.....
That bolt was destroyed. They didn't remove it, just f'd up the old hanger. Sad.
Mr Roger's history is pretty good. But there is no dispute now over land ownership. All agree it's Dartmouth land.
To those who might think we should replace the bolts in a renegade operation...PLEASE PLEASE don't do it.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Sep 19, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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I feel your pain...
Got these back from the person paid to remove them.
No doubt I processed the whole thing through the classic stages of grief (probably hovered on anger a bit...ha ha). I might be cautiously at some level of acceptance. Sorta.
Gives me some comfort knowing that the rock is still there, the routes are too and my experience still counts for me.
Heavy sigh. Breathe. Remember the fun and people involved.
Kinda hard to move on and not want to run this type of stuff up the flag pole. I'm not sure but maybe I took the higher ground. Probably have some level of peace with it.
Good luck.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 10:35pm PT
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There are two amygdalae per person normally, with one amygdala on each side of the brain. They are thought to be a part of the limbic system within the brain, which is responsible for emotions, survival instincts, and memory.
Upon seeing a destroyed bolt some feel the desire to do violence to someone or something. Immediately. This is the amygdala, also called the lizard brain, doing its thing. Here is a trick useful for adapting our behaviors constructively. Immediately as the rush is sensed you think,"OK. I'll form an opinion or take other action only after fifteen seconds have gone by." Just 15 heart beats. After 15 seconds many options. most of which are also are more effective, become available.
Not to be used when facing a grizzly, however.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 19, 2018 - 11:10pm PT
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It might be a case of adverse possession, uphill battle though
I immediately thought of an easement by prescription. My other thought, however, was whether anyone informed the Access Fund. We need to take advantage of their expertise.
In any case, the incompetent destruction of the bolts deserves condemnation, regardless of any other confusion or mistakes. We climb on a limited rock resource. Even removing routes requires respect for the medium.
John
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Sep 20, 2018 - 10:34am PT
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I don't get it. If Dartmouth owns the land and Darmouth made the chopping happen, what is the problem? Are you saying that they shouldn't chop bolts on their own land?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2018 - 02:49pm PT
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Dartmouth can do whatever it wants on their own land. just seems pretty darn stupid to erase stellar climbing routes when your outing club has a climbing program. whatever... the bozos smashed a critical 30 year old bolt on a 60m ground up 10+ trad line that only had 2 pins and one bolt on it. established in 80's.. Brilliant work.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Sep 20, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
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Splater posted:
What about in cases where the landowner seems to have given permission?
Any case for adverse possession is doomed if there's evidence the land was used with permission.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2018 - 07:05pm PT
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Fangs Of Love 35m sport, 5.9 or 10d depending on which start. Chopped
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