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North
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 22, 2018 - 09:38am PT
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Does anyone have one or know where to get one? Not looking to add anything, just replace if needed. Thanks.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 22, 2018 - 12:38pm PT
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Sorry I don't have what you're looking for. But I do have an idea.
Your headline, "Rivet kit for sale" looks like you are trying to sell a rivet kit. Since you might be the only one on this forum looking to buy one, folks who think you're selling won't take a look at your post.
Maybe delete what you've got and try something like "I want to by a rivet kit." There's probably an old duffer or two here who have one.
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Aug 22, 2018 - 12:43pm PT
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What Kris said. Delete this thread and start a new one to say you want to buy one. And list what you are looking for more specifically.
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ec
climber
ca
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Aug 22, 2018 - 12:48pm PT
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Head ‘North’ to the hardware store. That’s where rivet kits are born...
 ec
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 22, 2018 - 03:20pm PT
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I have one for sale, $150:
- 1 Hammer
- 1 Drill
- 2 Drill bits
- 25 pcs 1/4" x 1 1/2" aluminum stock
Email me...
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Aug 22, 2018 - 03:21pm PT
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I don't think thats even a thing. As EC said, go to the hardware store. What do you need them for?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Aug 22, 2018 - 08:16pm PT
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Just a backup kit for doing existing aid/wall routes, in case you encounter any rivet problems?
Yes, Rawl/Powers 1/4” x 1.5” buttonhead, and use two 1/4” washers on the buttonhead – to help keep a keyhole hanger or cable rivet hanger on the rivet and to help protect the rock from tuning fork damage when it’s time to pull the rivet for replacement.
The info on the Fixe website in Matt’s link above is bogus. The description is correct, but the photo is of the POS garbage Fixe 5/16”/8mm buttonhead. That is not a photo of a Rawl/Powers 1/4” buttonhead. Also, the description lists “Requires 8mm SDS Bit.” Well, 8mm is basically 5/16”...
8mm = 0.31496”
5/16” = 0.3125”
1/4” = Ummmm, well, yeah... quarter-inch. (That’s 0.25” for all of Werner’s favorite Americans out there... (...and maybe the Fixe guys too...))
Fixe has the same problem with the 1/4” x 1.25” buttonhead on their website – wrong photo again, and they list 8mm for the drill bit size. What a mess...
Matt, not trying to give you a hard time in any way here... unless you work for Fixe. ; )
This is what you want for rivets:
http://www.powers.com/product_03601.php
Powers #3241
Not sure what the best source is these days, aside from a special order from a hardware store. Do a Google search.
And don’t get conned into using some 3/8” monstrosity buttonhead, like some out there are using. That’s a bolt, not a rivet! : p
1. 1/4” x 1.5” Drive buttonhead
2. 1/4” x 1.25” Drive buttonhead
3. Long 5/16” grade 5 machinehead rivet
4. Standard 5/16” grade 5 machinehead rivet
5. 1/4” x 1.5” Drive buttonhead with 5/16” SS SMC hanger (the good ol’ stuff)
6. 3/8” x 2.25” Power Bolt with 3/8” Metolious hanger (the Rawl “5-piece” bolt)
While the 5/16” machinehead rivet can be more bomber than a 1/4” buttonhead, require less drilling time, and does not require washers to keep an RP keyhole hanger locked onto the rivet once the hanger is clipped with a biner, machinehead rivets are more difficult to replace, especially if trying to reuse the original hole. Therefore, it’s best to go with the 1/4” buttonhead, which can be removed more cleanly, most likely allowing for the same hole to be reused during rivet replacement.
I’ve posted all this stuff more than once in the past, but figured I’d post it again. Hope it is useful info.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 22, 2018 - 09:49pm PT
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This drill:
https://www.runoutcustoms.com/store/p2/D%2F5_Hurricane_Drill.html
With a 9/32” 200DA collet, this holder can accept regular 17/64” cobalt steel drill bits, which can be easily found in a quality hardware store, and which can be modified with a chisel tip using a grinding wheel (Careful not to get too hot and affect the heat treatment when doing this). This is the system with which I achieved all the drilling records ( such as the 47 second record for a 1/4” bolt (1 1/4” long)— drilled, dust blown, and bolt placed) at the Cochise Stonghold’s beanfest.
I find the 1/4” SDS bit problematic for many reasons—too long, diameter a bit too small, and not the best tip for drilling (though the carbide tip can be modified as well). 17/64” is slight oversized 1/4” and works best in most valley granite for the 1/4” split shank bolts.
Commonly found Cobalt steel drill bits work well, but you need a holder that can accept the straight 17/64” shank. The Runout (formerly Hurricane Mountain Works) drill was designed to do just that (but also accepts, with the standard 3/8” collet, all SDS bits).
You can also use regular 9/32” bits with the 9/32” collet, of course, which is the perfect hole size for 5/16” coarse thread machine bolts used as rivets in very hard granite.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Aug 22, 2018 - 09:53pm PT
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what's the difference between a good rivet and a bad rivet? heh.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 23, 2018 - 03:22pm PT
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Hi Minerals--can you email me at deuce4 at bigwalls.net?
I am working with a bunch of talented craftsfolk in the USA these days, and there is some interest in creating a 1/4" expedition bolting kit. Would like to get your expertise and help if you are game...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Aug 23, 2018 - 07:05pm PT
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So you want to create a lightweight bolt kit with Zamacs, right Deuce? ; )
Email sent.
Thanks, Matt. I figured that you don’t work for them. I’m not always sure if my sense of humor comes across as humor.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 23, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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Minerals, nice HMW drill holds set! Are all these my old ones, or some from the Runout Customs batch? https://www.runoutcustoms.com/store/p2/D%2F5_Hurricane_Drill.html
Not sure about Zmacs. Always preferred the 5/16” coarse thread machine bolts, like the ones pictured above (3/4” long in typical granite, or 1” long in rotten granite).
Are zMacs rivets of choice these days?
Was thinking more like 1/4” split shank bolts, hangars, rivets, rivet hangars, blow tube, drills, holder, bolt bag as a single purchase kit. Ready for new or repeat remote big walls, where speedy anchoring is key for survival.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 23, 2018 - 09:22pm PT
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Zmacs are for holding sheet metal signs in place NOT for climbing applications.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 23, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
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^agree.
ZMacs in our time were made of cheap aluminum, I think a 3000series. I have seen some more recent advocacy for them, maybe there are better steel ones? Probably not.
Some tested back in the day: (test results at end of article, John Dill’s friend Hal and I tested these behind the Yosar rescue cache). ZMacs less than 1/2 strength of machine bolt rivets.
http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/bolts.pdf
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 23, 2018 - 09:56pm PT
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If you want to place a machinehead style of rivet you need to use a 5/16" X 3/4" fully threaded stainless steel machine bolt and deform or partially remove the threads to allow it to have some holding power in a 1/4" deliberately flared hole assuming good granite.
The machine bolts shown above are not really suitable.
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klaus
Ice climber
6th and Mission
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Aug 23, 2018 - 10:02pm PT
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I use #1 as my primary bolt, that and a Pika hanger.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Aug 23, 2018 - 11:15pm PT
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Those Hurricanes are all original, Deuce, and I have a mint fourth one too, thanks to Mr. Carter.
After 2.5 decades, they have hundreds and hundreds of holes on them and they take whatever abuse that I can throw at them. Great design, and they still kick azz.
LOL... Maybe I should quit my attempts at humor. Yes, I think Zamacs are pretty much junk too. We are all in agreement there. : )
http://www.powers.com/product_02826.php
And what Klaus said. I think the 1/4” x 1.5” buttonhead is still the best bet for drilling on lead on free routes, unless you are on a short route, and have the time and a stance to drill a 3/8” hole. One can most likely come back later to replace those quarter-inchers with 3/8” bolts, should they be so inclined. Or there is the Roger Brown option... : )
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 24, 2018 - 12:05am PT
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Cool, so much has changed (and much has stayed the same), since my days. Sometimes I think the real is a joke and vice versa.
It seems what is missing in the market is an ideal remote big wall first ascent kit—maybe we can all brainstorm to create our ideal kit.
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North
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2018 - 08:58am PT
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Thanks for the great advice Minerals, Steve G, Duece and everyone else. I’m looking at Tribal Rite and more than one person says a rivet kit would be helpful as many rivets are either missing or in horrible condition. I’m not looking to add anything, but merely replace should I rip one out. Thanks again.
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DanMerrick
Social climber
FKA Banquo from Mo' Hill, CA
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Aug 24, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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I still have a few of the micro holders. People carry them as a spare and have drilled with them. I'm told a wrap of tape helps keep the micro set screws in place. I also have boxes of 1/4" split shank button heads.
http://dammerr.com/holders.html
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Aug 24, 2018 - 11:15am PT
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I've placed probably a couple hundred or so of the split shaft 1/4" drive bolts in mostly 1.25" length. For the most part they are pretty hard to screw up and have always felt plenty bomber to me. I've done the double washer trick like Minerals and just slip a medium size stopper wire between the washers. I do use the slightly longer 1.5" if I'm gonna be doing the washer trick as the the minimum embed depth is 1.125" and the two washers and space for stopper eat up some length.
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klaus
Ice climber
6th and Mission
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Aug 24, 2018 - 05:28pm PT
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This seems to work for me just fine in granite for pro and belays. Rivets would be shorter.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 24, 2018 - 05:45pm PT
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I've placed probably a couple hundred or so of the split shaft 1/4" drive bolts in mostly 1.25" length. For the most part they are pretty hard to screw up and have always felt plenty bomber to me. I've placed around the same number, but one failed at far less than body weight after 8 months (over the winter in Tuolumne) - and I had hung on it the previous season. It was 95% cracked/rusted, just a small sliver was freshly broken. And one of Mineral's bolts broke just under the weight of a quickdraw, again after a winter - one winter I think? I think both were in water streaks (mine was right in a water streak below the end of a ledge).
Also one of mine that I didn't get around to replacing for about 8 years snapped off with not too much effort, and it was cracked/rusted about 60% through. Not in a water streak, on a big slab at about 10,000' on the eastside.
The same mechanism is probably behind the 5/16" buttonhead failure at Owens, and a couple 3/8" split-shaft failures at Cochise. But that's just my guess.
Anyway...split-shafts can be suspect after a winter...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 24, 2018 - 05:58pm PT
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We've had reports on this forum of 1/4" split shaft bolts failing right after they were installed. Wrong design for the use we intend for them.
TORTURED METAL MAKES FOR POOR ANCHORS. Don't use them folks!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 24, 2018 - 06:32pm PT
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I seem to recall that when I did Mescalito in 2000 the steep headwalls featured these rivets (as we called them at the time) which were thin aluminum stock rolled into a peg. Some had wads of duct tape stuck on the end to hopefully keep your wire or hanger from slipping off. After each three or four of these there'd be a 1/4" buttonhead which was a great relief to clip.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 25, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
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Minerals got me thinking. As I was never a fan of Zamacs (and I just learned the proper spelling), I never knew too much about them, except that I hated clipping them on walls.
They are indeed primarily Zinc, with aluminium as one of the alloying elements)
Here is some info:
Zamacs have always been known to be weak, but probably mostly because the material is weak and deforms in shear. Another problem is how they have been used on El Cap--On the first ascent of sheep ranch, the climbers drilled a deep hole, then mashed the zmac against a tie-off. On the third ascent only 3-4 years later, the tie-offs were rotten and stiff, and sometimes in the middle of a hard A4 section--making the route much harder for subsequent ascents than it was for the first (when the rivet and new sling had some chance of holding a short fall). Cutting away the sling took some craft and a lot of time, then there was only room for a #1 rivet hanger wire--bogus.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Aug 25, 2018 - 09:24pm PT
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^^Cool, you found more info on them. Who does like clipping them on walls??? Mad Bolter Richard may have expressed an affinity for these at some point in the past. They are, after all, a true rivet, in that they are pretty much a bodyweight placement, temporary as they may be.
Just took a look at Zamak on Wiki, which lists “Plumbing fittings” as a use of the alloy, which has me wondering if those old “plumber’s tape” rivet hangers, like what Harding used on the Porcelain Wall, are also made of a Zamak alloy. Hmmm... I think some of those tape hangers were used with Zamac rivets too. Ugg.
North, do I know you? Are you south?
If you are going up Tribal, then I think some sort of a backup kit would be a good idea. When Kirk and I did it in ’99, there were a couple of small ‘issues’ on one of the rivet pitches (either pitch 3 or 4). While Kirk was cleaning, two of the rivets popped out of the rock as he lifted the keyhole hanger off of them, and the rivets went to the deck. The original rivets on these pitches are stainless machine bolts. Not sure why there was an issue with these two, but I’d be suspect of any of them that still remain.
The bolt that Greg mentioned above was on Cheetos and Everclear, on Dozier Dome, in Tuolumne. Jeff was leading on the second ascent, which I think was just a day or two after we finished the pitch (definitely less than a week; no winter involved), and suddenly there was a metal-on-rock jingling sound, which was a bolt hanger and his quickdraw sliding down the lead line, as he was already a few moves above where the draw ‘used to be’ clipped. I remember him saying… “This route just got a lot harder...” : ) I was sitting at the base, off to the side, thinking WTF...? Turns out the bolt had broken midway along the shaft sometime after we finished the pitch and when he climbed it, and the movement of the rope and draw simply pulled the outer half of the bolt out. This is the only time that I have seen something like this happen.
I agree that there should be a better option for the 1/4” buttonhead, but so far I have not found one, and so will continue to use them. I don’t keep them around for too long, though. As does Greg, I pull them later and replace them with a stainless 3/8” 5-piece, preferably that same season.
Steve, I agree too that a stainless 5/16” machine bolt may be a better rivet option in the long run, compared to the carbon-steel grade 5 version. However, I am not familiar with the difference in properties between the two metals, i.e. hardness, malleability, and strength, and how they relate to rivet placement and strength. The grade 5 versions can certainly be way bomber when they are new. Deuce, any comments on this from an engineering perspective?
Nice stuff, Dammerr. Interesting idea with the RE magnets.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Aug 25, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 26, 2018 - 11:49am PT
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^ that is nuts, Russ. Back to the concept of intentionally making drilled placements dicey...
... making subsequent ascents harder than the first.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 26, 2018 - 12:06pm PT
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Minerals, regarding your comment about stainless machine bolts—I am not really sure, haven’t ever really seen any coarse thread stainless machine bolts.
I did test some Grade 8 machine bolts back in the day, and they did not perform as well, my hypothesis is that you want the softness of the grade 5 coarse threads to meld into the hole giving it some outward holding strength.
One thing I discovered in all those tests is that bolt failure is really about pullout strength; in tests, even with a shearing force, the rock would crumble slightly at the edge of the hole, and the bolt would bend, so the way it eventually failed was it was getting pulled out, even in shear. (Not sure if that is clear).
Anyway, the only way to really find out is to set up a hydraulic puller with a pressure gauge (about a $200 rig) in the field and test a bunch of them!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 26, 2018 - 12:15pm PT
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For reference, this is the additional collet one would need to get to use 17/64” cobalt or HSS hardware store drills—the recommended drill hole size for 1/4” buttonheads.
( in Minerals photo above, his 1/4” drill setup has one of these collets).
The whole concept behind this drill holder is you don’t need any custom made drills like we did in the old days when the only game in town was the RAWL holder which often got jammed and was hard to replace broken bits en route.
With the Hurricane, you can use any size drill, not just SDS, with the appropriate collet. Thus more versatile. Of course it works with SDS as well.
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DanMerrick
Social climber
FKA Banquo from Mo' Hill, CA
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Aug 26, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
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I've tested a lot of 1/4" anchors. Most really aren't too bad. I can't find the results right now but I have also tested Zamacs and they are worthless.
Some numbers for shear tests with stoppers for comparison. Tests in good granite:
Pounds
3500 tested Powers 1/4" Drive (split shank)
3100 tested Powers Spike 1/4"
2500 tested Simpson Strong Bolt 1/4" 316 SS
2250 rated #6 stopper
2160 tested wej-it 1/4" 304 Stainless Sleeve Anchor
1350 rated #5 stopper
If anybody needs some anchors, contact me.
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