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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Aug 20, 2018 - 08:22am PT
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Humans are an odd lot, myself included. Too often we find anything different, strange. It has taken far too long to learn to appreciate the differences. (From books I've read the Native Americans found the white faces pretty weird.)
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Trump
climber
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Aug 20, 2018 - 09:03am PT
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When Yosemite tells us what she wants from a friend, then maybe we’ll have a better idea of how to answer the question. Until then, we’re answering a question about what Yosemite wants from us by substituting in what we want from Yosemite.
We seem to do that a lot, often it seems to me without even noticing that we’re doing it. That’s just how we roll.
Yosemite does her own thing, and I’ll try my best not to let her kill me, and enjoy her existence instead.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Aug 20, 2018 - 09:31am PT
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Growing up I had quite an interest in Native American history and have read dozens of books on that subject. It is a sordid story of man.
In regards to history it is valuable to keep in mind that most of the men within that history are men of their times. Most men (or women) that are far ahead of their time are rejected. I do not think all work that was done by men of prejudice can be discounted when all most all of the men of that time were men of prejudice. I do think it is valuable to note how they were, that is history. Muir was a friend of Yosemite, he was not a friend to Native Americans. Very few men of stature were.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Aug 20, 2018 - 10:13am PT
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Hi mynameismud! I too grew up (and still do) reading much about the Native Americans. What a rich culture they had/have. Much for me to learn from.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 20, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
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Isn’t it always interesting what people pull out from an article, a scene, or a narrative?
1. Supposedly smart people attacking a “big problem” invariably leads to “unintended consequences” almost everywhere (poverty, health care, income disparities, ecological issues, etc.). Can big problems be fixed with big solutions?
I don’t claim affiliation or favor with any political view, but it’s often argued that Big Solutions are the compassionate thing to do, and they are driven by intellectual, smart, problem-solving people. “If we just had enough resources, we could fix . . . .”
Sometimes the smartest thing to do is nothing big (other than maybe allowing grass roots to take hold).
2. Americans, more than any other national group that i’ve seen, love to hate themselves. Is it because Americans have committed more offenses than any other national group? Is it because Americans are smarter are more self-reflective than other national groups? Is it because Americans feel guilt more than other national groups?
3. Reviewing and calling for responsibility and restitution (in some form, even if just recognition) seems applicable to every living being on the planet. We all have a connection to history. At some point in the past, we all shared the same mother. Are we all guilty for whatever one of our ancestors did? How should we deal with that guilt? Should we claim it (should we feel guilty if we don’t feel responsibility?)—and if so, what should we do about it, and at what point should we go on to other concerns?
There doesn’t seem to be any sure answers to these questions. Isn’t that just another facet of the human condition? Do you think the human condition be fixed?
A teacher once said to me: “You can’t fix samsara”
Assigning blame doesn’t really seem solve anything, but for some reason, we feel compelled to blame someone somewhere for something.
Is it possible that there are no “bad” or “good things”—just “things,” as it were?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 20, 2018 - 12:49pm PT
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It would pay to read Muir's Travels In Alaska. He describes his interactions with the local natives who served to paddle him on his exploration.
I cannot make any judgement calls on him or his contemporaries, for I haven't the mindset that came with living in those times.
As to the adoption of putting out any raging forest fires no matter what, it was a mistake, as we have seen. But mankind's always making mistakes with the best of intentions.
You might blame old John, but you need to forgive as well.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Aug 20, 2018 - 01:00pm PT
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Mynameismud, I'm not sure about that, the nazis lived in their own time, too. Are we supposed to judge them by nazi standards?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 20, 2018 - 01:07pm PT
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You need to decide for yourself. I can't answer your question.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 20, 2018 - 01:37pm PT
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Isn’t it always interesting what people pull out from an article, a scene, or a narrative?
Agree.
Not sure how the author is linking atrocities committed in 1850 to John Muir who was living in Wisconsin at the time; (having just emigrated from Scotland). Muir did not even visit Yosemite until 1870?
Currently Yosemite is hardly a true wilderness by my standard. Humankind of all creeds have a poor history of wilderness management. Fire management is just one example.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 20, 2018 - 01:40pm PT
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Well said Mouse.
As for the forest maintenance as a way to minimize fire damage, the work of the Indians only applied to the valley. A small area in the scheme of things. I do recall reading somewhere else that Indians would ignite grasses on the plains as a form of maintenance.
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Aug 20, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
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^ halcyon?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Aug 20, 2018 - 04:06pm PT
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I think the controlling of forest fires mostly goes a little later than the events in Yos. Read Timothy Egan's book, the Big Burn. About the huge fires in 1910 in Idaho and Montana. He makes the argument that those tipped Roosevelt and Gifford Pinchot in the direction of forest preservation and fire prevention.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2018 - 04:24pm PT
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It all distills down into a basic stream.
When the st00pid ignorant brainwashed white men showed up in North America then everything turned to sh!t very quickly.
And now, today, these st00pid brainwashed morons are busy destroying the whole planet .....
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 20, 2018 - 04:28pm PT
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Very good post, MikeL. I agree.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 20, 2018 - 04:29pm PT
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The Awahneechees were called "Yosemite" by the surrounding tribes, which translates as "those who kill". So even among the local tribes, they were more violent perhaps, at least some of them. Nevertheless, after reading Bunnells account, it seems that the violent, criminal behavior of a few was used as an excuse to move out the entire tribe. What seemed unfair to me was to hold the Chief and the entire tribe responsible for the criminal behavior of a few. We have a tendency to view the Indian Tribes as being a homogeneous group, just because they are small in numbers. It is possible that they just had a small criminal element they could not control, just was we have.
One of my ancestors was a man by the name of Cordua, a German immigrant who leased what is now Marysville, from John Sutter. He had good relations with the local Indians, and traded with them. According to his accounts, what really ruined California was the Gold Rush. It brought in large numbers of people who had no respect for the land, the environment, or the local natives. It is true that at least some of the worst incidents involved miners.
The first Spanish people who saw the Los Angeles Basin, said it was incredibly beautiful and "Eden-like." Then we descended on the area like plague of locusts.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Aug 20, 2018 - 04:43pm PT
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Don Paul
I do not think the Nazi's were what most people would call men of their times. They were extremists.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Aug 20, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
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Mike-Americans, more than any other national group that i’ve seen, love to hate themselves. Is it because Americans have committed more offenses than any other national group? Is it because Americans are smarter are more self-reflective than other national groups? Is it because Americans feel guilt more than other national groups? Yep, good post Mike.
Another possible reason for National self loathing or reflection is that we tend to be influenced by youthful or provocative Pop culture in this country which tends to snuff out or melt out, in a generation or two, the dogmatic and compliant cultures brought here from foreign lands. Or perhaps we simply see the faults of our parents and grandparents through the lense of idealism. Homosexuality would be a good example- anyone watch Will and Grace?
Anyways, who claims that the Native Americans didn't raid, put other tribes into Slavery or kill animals to extinction?
The article implies that Native Americans had the Valley looking like the Bavaria of The Sound of Music. I'd assume the Bears and Mountain Lions weren't consulted and probably preferred some tangled brush here and there. How did the snakes and lizards fare in those controlled burns? Nature is better off without man and best off without Western Christian man.
I've been in old growth Pine Forests in Mexico where fire suppression and thus underbrush is basically nonexistent and remote jungles of Indonesia where you can't move without out a machete- Nature takes care of itself without man just fine but we've crossed the environmental Rubicon in that regard. We broke it so now we own it and putting environmental science at the forefront of policy making is well past due.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Aug 21, 2018 - 08:23am PT
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Don Paul said:I'm not sure about that, the nazis lived in their own time, too. Are we supposed to judge them by nazi standards?
Or we could judge them by the prevailing social standards of the time and I believe there might have been a world war and a following tribunal where Western society litigated Nazi standards as unacceptable.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Aug 21, 2018 - 09:07am PT
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Could be, I wasn't trying to start a food fight over it lol. I was listening to a book on tape, Joseph Conrad, classic literature but every time he talked about negros and natives, I judged.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Aug 21, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
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Contractor
I think if you dig into the history of the Native American culture you will probably find that in many ways they were more democratic than we have ever been. In addition it is widely accepted that most of the history that you read in regards to Native Americans is post collapse of their civilization.
They were far from perfect but compared to other civilizations of their time they did much better than average.
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Aug 21, 2018 - 01:20pm PT
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It seems that native americans may have better managed the lands they lived in than those who followed them, especially wrt the use of fire. However, they were managing the lands for themselves, not for visiting hikers or photographers or rock climbers. In fact they might be inclined to close the area to rock climbing, were they still the stewards of the valley. We all have many complaints about how the Valley is managed, but at the same time we enjoy our right to access.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Aug 21, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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I agree Mynameismud.
At this point there's no going back- it's complete management of our fuk ups or an astroid strike and start over.
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Aug 21, 2018 - 08:05pm PT
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Humans are an odd lot
A line from a country western song I find amusing but true:
"Beer is good, God is great and people are crazy".
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 21, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
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Thanks anti. Interesting. I suppose lightning took care of a lot of it too.
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totalxq
Trad climber
LOS GATOS ca
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Aug 21, 2018 - 10:33pm PT
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The article unfairly blames John Muir for being a man of his times. I do not think there are any accounts of Muir killing Natives; though in that time period( c. 1800s-early 1900s) many Natives that were killed in California as well as in other places around the Country. This is the beginning of the end of Native Americans being killed on purpose by people of the United States. Local, state and federal "programs" would pay people to kill Indians. Like CA governors and U.S presidents. As we know, much of the Native Population had already been killed off by disease from Europeans. Some figure of approximately 90% in North and South America. The smaller percentage of Indians killed not from disease, would today be considered genocide. The article did seem to have many good points contrary to what I said above. When the Spanish came they thought the Indians were nuts for burning the forest down. Many people today would not like to see the valley burn either. The way society dealt with Indians was much different, then today. One cannot blame a couple people for that.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Aug 22, 2018 - 07:50am PT
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Clearly it is now time to burn all of JM's books, tear down any statues or likenesses, and scrub him from the historical record. Anything less amounts to a complete and total endorsement of racism, rape culture, and violence against marginalized peoples everywhere. I'm sure there's some anti-gay/trans/bi/questioning rhetoric SOMEWHERE in JM's writing.
HE MUST BE EXPUNGED!
BAd
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Aug 23, 2018 - 08:59am PT
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In other words, it is high time now, in the twenty-first century, for the exclusionary approach of John Savage and John Muir to be tossed onto the fire.
So given where we are today, what does the author want us to do? Eliminate the NPS and put the native americans back in charge of managing Yosemite, or just eliminate the NPS, or broaden the authority to start "management" fires to include more user groups, or merely feel bad about John Muir (and ourselves)?
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 23, 2018 - 11:30am PT
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Pretty fluffy piece for a scientific journal.
The whole point being forest management by controlled burn.
Leaving the question, what did the nature do before the Indians did their burn cycles?
Muir vs Native Americans: His observations were of the last of a deafeated people. In his enthusiasm, he failed the compassion test to understand why they were so disturbing to him. I would still hold Muir up as an example of a fine naturalist to be emulated and admired. His work did more to help the world than not.
DMT - Rage song totally approriate. Love that one.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 23, 2018 - 11:43am PT
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These arguments about Muir’s legacy echo arguments made about Thomas Jefferson’s complex legacy.
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Yinzer
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 23, 2018 - 12:16pm PT
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This might be an unwanted veer in the conversation...
but I thought I would add this to this thread. the title is a little gimmicky to me, as It seems more of a long-form touring segment than anything specifically to do with Muir & his experiences in the range... but you ST heads will love these shots of the Sierra. And Jeremy Jones is a generational supertalent & complete legend.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Also, for other people wondering about early CA mountain-history- I'm sure the ST'ers have also heard about this book but I found it wonderful and a great resource:
https://www.counterpointpress.com/dd-product/early-days-in-the-range-of-light/
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 23, 2018 - 12:59pm PT
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"I care to live only to entice people to look at Nature's loveliness. My own special self is nothing."
Yinzer, you are right. Great setting for some slidin' and glidin'.
Too bad about the Yeti logo, though. That sucked.
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Bale
Mountain climber
UT
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Aug 23, 2018 - 01:27pm PT
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“You might blame old John, but you need to forgive as well.” Well said Mouse.
Nice “Rage” pull DMT!
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| Messages 1 - 34 of total 34 in this topic |
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