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bradL
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe, NV
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 16, 2018 - 07:00am PT
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Observations:
1. A lot of hard alpinists that I've personally known or interacted with are dead. andre-leclerc johnson steck dempster puryear kellogg copp dash... not meant to be complete, this is just what I see sitting over here.
2. Interest is fading (maybe)? To take an example, the black diamond website currently has two pictures of people climbing plastic, a picture of bouldering shoes, and one picture of a cam placed in sandstone. All the money is in gym climbing and bouldering these days.
WTF? Thoughts? Comments? Inflammatory remarks?
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Aug 16, 2018 - 07:11am PT
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hardly
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 16, 2018 - 07:16am PT
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Man will always be drawn to the hard alpine realm. It calls to us.
"Per capita" of participants I would think bouldering, plastic, sport climbing etc will continue to grow while real deal alpinism may even shrink.....simply based on "access" and the way climbers start climbing these days. Its way easier and more likely for a kid these days to start in a gym and stick to that type of pursuit.
Back in the day, your first time "climbing" was actually climbing in the mountains, or on a rock at the bare minimum.
What thrilled me and blew my mind the first few times was the crunch of snow under my boots/crampons, the sun rising over a glacier, the feeling of warm granite handjam actually supporting me weight....snacks on a summit....that kind of thing. It had nothing to do with the athletic movement, which is what indoor climbers are drawn to initially.
Those things that first drew me to the sport are what keeps me in the mountains and why I will always climb in the mountains. The gym absolutely bores me, though I go to stay strong and hang with friends.
Hard alpinism is also a good way to die. So you have that part too.
Basically, I'm always trying to get young climbers into the mountains for all the reasons we all love the high and wild. But yeah, I can see an overall decline in numbers but there will always be hardcore bros and lasses out there carrying the torch!
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 16, 2018 - 07:16am PT
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Here's a recent example of hard alpinism.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
A group just climbed most of Latok I's north ridge.
There will always be a few on this planet, driven to push themselves, in those wild, inhospitable places.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 16, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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Climbers practicing hard alpinism have always been a small fraction of the climbing population. Now that new explosively-growing genres have been added, hard alpinists are destined to become an even smaller fraction of the total population, and so are decreasing in that sense, even if their numbers are increasing, albeit more slowly than the total population.
Given these trends, I would expect the number and quality of hard alpine ascents to increase, not decrease, so no, the practice of hard alpinism is not going to end.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 16, 2018 - 08:38am PT
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Nah.
I would say, however, the trend in climbing for a person to remove all barriers of the past and find full personal and human potential - the limits of which appear to be plateauing somewhat in bouldering and sport [not unlike the 4 minute mile or 2 hr marathon] - this process hasn't gone as smoothly in the alpine environment. Alpine climbing is technically and physically far easier [fact] - but because of conditions, far more dangerous.
IMO, many people therefore see it as a bullsh!t game to play - the process of finding their own potential hindered by so many external factors, including death.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 16, 2018 - 08:58am PT
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I'm not saying yes or no. I am saying that once upon a time . .
Goldline and Chrome Molly. or before that, Manila ropes & soft Iron, those times, for decades. Those times were when the words -will it be abandoned?-
were under serious consideration.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Now, I dont think it is in decline at all, given . . .
modern technology. . .light weight gear & clothing, food Footwear the list goes on. . . O
helicopters for both re-supply going in and rescues. . .
so maybe?
The true "hard" of Alpinism , whatever that is
is relegated to places that are not on the map,
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:03am PT
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Alpine climbing is technically and physically far easier [fact]
Hmm. I guess this is true if you adopt a suitably narrow definition of "technically," but it seems to me like saying ultramarathons are technically easier than the 100 meter dash (because at no moment is the ultramarathoner running anywhere near as fast as the sprinter).
IMO, many people therefore see it as a bullsh!t game to play - the process of finding their own potential hindered by so many external factors, including death
Well, there never has been a large proportion if alpine climbers, and no doubt the very large range of required skills plus the objective dangers have kept the group small---nothing new about that. As for "finding their own potential," JLP may have pre-defined this in the context of the aspirations of sport climbers, but I can't see any reason why the search for personal potential can't occur with the same vigor and intensity in the alpine context.
What is unquestionably different about alpine climbing is the high degree of uncertainty associated with it. Even if the dangers were not more substantial, my guess is that genres with a surer path to achievement would predominate.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:04am PT
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There are many more alpinists out there climbing hard that nobody ever hears about.
It’s definately not dying out.
Just not quite the mass marketing appeal of rock climbing in more media accessed locations.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:32am PT
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Think of all the sit starts to alpine testpieces that haven't been done yet.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:35am PT
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vs.
Which one seems more appealing to you?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:39am PT
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^^^^While the upper is appealing the lower would be much more unforgettable.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:45am PT
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Andre-leclerc, Johnson, Steck, Dempster Puryear, Kellogg, Copp, Dash,
Adding Stump, Ueli Steck, McNeill, Nott, Cheesemond and so many more that were among the best in the game. Always a sad and humbling list to think on.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:46am PT
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I don't believe alpinism will ever die completely A very small segment of the climbing population will continue to pursue ever harder objectives in the alpine realm, while the majority of "climbers" will continue to pull on plastic or sport crags. I think this is mostly a good thing
Hard alpine climbing has never been a mainstream activity, but some of us will always be drawn to the mountains. Even though many of us old guys started in the mountains, very few ever pursued the super alpine, for the reasons listed up-thread, in the first place.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:47am PT
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I can't see any reason why the search for personal potential can't occur with the same vigor and intensity in the alpine context.
Sure - but what truly defines personal achievement? Competition. What you did has to be truly difficult and proven so by attempted repeats. Otherwise, you're kind of a punter off on your own - everyone's a winner.
The increased complexity of alpine climbing has allowed for people to get away with an illusion of difficulty. Solving a logistical puzzle on a problem few care about doesn't make you athletically gifted. However, every year that "slop" gets exposed and the bar is raised.
Thing is - and a lot of really good climbers have found this - the risk goes through the roof before you can really apply the limits of the individual elements - rock and ice climbing, overall athletic fitness, competence on varied terrain, etc.
Many guys who have lead the sport in these components have headed into the high alpine and said, basically, "fuk this" to both the lack of comparable difficulty and the increased risk - Croft and Haston both had remarkably short stints in the Himalaya, for example. So many others have ended up dead.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Aug 16, 2018 - 09:59am PT
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That 8,000 foot long 5.11 Croft and Anker simuled on Spansarr Brakk in 98 is still unrepeated, right?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 16, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
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Russian Roulette has proven its appeal ad nauseum, n’est ce pas?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 16, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
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^^^^While the upper is appealing the lower would be much more unforgettable.
I'm not so sure about that. The upper is much less likely to cause PTSD induced amnesia.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
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^^ But more likely to cause STD.
Sure - but what truly defines personal achievement? Competition.
I would disagree. So it goes.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Aug 16, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
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^^^^While the upper is appealing the lower would be much more unforgettable. I'm not so sure about that. The upper is much less likely to cause PTSD induced amnesia. |
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Aug 16, 2018 - 02:43pm PT
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No, it is not going away. But if it did, would it's spectators do similarly?
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Aug 16, 2018 - 02:46pm PT
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Don't get your perspective from BD catalogs; subscribe to Alpinist. It's still an active activity.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Aug 16, 2018 - 03:04pm PT
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The majority who have posted feel this type of climbing will endure, if not increase. I feel the numbers will increase particularly since there are more people climbing outside, and a proportion of those will become alpinist. The climbs I remember most were the close calls, in severe storms, or really hanging it out there, and this will always appeal to a few.
If I wasn't so damn old, I would be still doing it.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Aug 16, 2018 - 03:12pm PT
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There will always be young climbers, evolving into Alpinist to replace the old guard.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 16, 2018 - 03:17pm PT
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What a bunch of has beens.
;)
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Jer_
Sport climber
Seattle
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Aug 16, 2018 - 03:33pm PT
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Well I'm a certified Millennial (TM), and I am, and know many people my age that are drawn to the "hard alpine."
Sure, plastic climbing is huge these days, but I see the plastic as a positive filter to the local crags. There are 100 people my age who see a well taken and edited climbing photo on Instagram or what not, and think "I should give that a shot." And they end up at the gyms, sweating out V-easys. Few of them progress to the nearby outdoor crags, and even fewer of them make it to the nearby trad/alpine multis. Climbing, due to the internet, has a bigger stage than ever, and the gyms provide a useful and necessary filter. I don't stress about the plastic.
I digress though. I grew up bagging hike-in peaks with my folks, and have always felt the burn, excitement and call of the ever-mysterious peaks in the distance. I'm young and soft, but I'm orienting myself toward it, and plan to go and get it. We're trying to pay our dues in our own way.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Aug 16, 2018 - 03:53pm PT
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Aug 16, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
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nah.
as with war, the only thing that ebbs and flows is the public’s voyeuristic appetite towards it...
and so every generation perennially relearns some hard truths regarding said voyeurism.
but alpinism itself?
as long as humans can’t flap their arms and fly it’ll remain compelling to some...
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 16, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
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Why be cold and wet when you can be warm and dry?
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Aug 16, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
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When I first visited Patagonia in 2001, there were about four or five teams sharing Rio Blanco camp with us for the whole 7 weeks we were there. Nobody stayed in town. Basically everyone knew everyone who was planning to attempt Fitzroy.
The last two times I was there (2015 and 2016) the number of climbers easily numbered in the hundreds. A friend climbed Supercanaleta with 11 other teams on the same day. We had four teams behind us on Mate Porro on the north pillar. In 2013 over a hundred people summitted Cerro Torre in a single day. Long queues are commonplace on all the normal routes. This is the venue that is renowned for long hard approaches, long difficult routes, and some of the worlds worst weather.
Up in the Alaska Range, routes that saw no traffic 20 years ago now have tent cities at the basecamp. Denali’s numbers haven’t moved much in 30 years but more people are trying the harder routes.
In the 1990’s, the contemporary generation of climbers of the day each could likewise tell you a long list of dead friends lost to the mountains, as could the prior generation.
In short, hard alpine climbing will continue, and in larger numbers.. The danger and uncertainty aren’t for everyone, but are at least subconsciously part of the attraction for those who are committed to it. Type 2 fun is no deterrent for certain people with loose screws. And the situations and scenery are just far more dramatic and inspiring than the average climbing gym blasting dub step music.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 16, 2018 - 07:21pm PT
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Reilly nails it. Rock climbing is a game of skill with minimal objective vs subjective dangers (think chess). Real alpine turns that on its head and presents way more objective dangers than subjective ones (think roulette). Bottom line is it's gambling and all the more so for hardcore alpinists pushing the boundaries.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 16, 2018 - 11:10pm PT
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RobertL: Roulette doesn’t offer much benefit to those optimising skill and intuition
Skill and intuition are subjective aspects of climbing and don't control the objective dangers, only hopefully allow you to navigate them. But as you push the boundaries in alpine you increasingly narrow the room you have to navigate those hazards down to the point where it is roulette or rolling the dice - pick the gambling metaphor of your choice.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 17, 2018 - 12:23am PT
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But do you see any aesthetic lines up that photo?But do you see any aesthetic lines up that photo?
There’s that ridge entering the frame about half way up the right side, with a big pinnacle. Then it hooks right and takes the white stuff up to the summit ridge.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Aug 17, 2018 - 12:40am PT
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the important lesson here
hard trolling is forever.
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 17, 2018 - 01:24am PT
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JLP wrote:
Sure - but what truly defines personal achievement? Competition.
That's your definition of personal achievement. It's certainly not mine.
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 17, 2018 - 01:35am PT
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Robert L wrote:
For every mentioned American and Canuck in those photos and lists, there’s scores of Poles, French, Italians, Spaniards, Swiss, Brits, Argentinians, Chileans, Germans, Russians, Koreans and Japanese.
Chamonix has seemingly never been busier. Access to the bigger range valleys is getting logistically easier.
Indeed. This seems to be a very American-centric discussion - which is normal, forum posters are mostly American (and Californian).
There are new hard routes being put up or repeated in the Alps and Himalaya/Karakorum on a regular basis, we just don't hear about it in the US because the American mountain media doesn't cover these stories for what I think are two main reasons: 1) some of these routes often don't top out on a summit, and 2) the routes weren't put up/repeated by American climbers.
When the speed record for the Nose is broken for the umpteenth time, it seems we can't stop talking about it. But when a speed record is broken on one of the Alps' major north faces, hardly a peep on the US side of the Atlantic.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 17, 2018 - 07:47am PT
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We don’t have any real alpine mountains in the lower 48. European tourist destinations like Zermatt, Grindelwald and Chamonix place people right at the base of some pretty dramatic peaks more in character with the Himalaya, making this style of climbing much more visible.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Aug 17, 2018 - 08:01am PT
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As others have said, with more climbers will come more alpinists, but because of the risk, the percentages will always be relatively small. But the high country is more crowded than ever.
When I was a young buck, my driving passion was the high peaks. I learned to rock climb because that was my ticket to big, gnarly mountains. Getting out when I could as I slogged through high school and a couple of college degrees, I came to realize how friggin' dangerous the alpine game is. While not losing any personal friends, I met people who later died climbing peaks soon after I met them. I was almost taken out by avalanche and rock fall. While I would not trade my experiences for anything I can imagine, those risks are real and will always limit the number of players, as they should!
BAd
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 17, 2018 - 08:36am PT
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Bottom line in cutting-edge alpine is you just have to have an appetite for more objective risk.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Aug 17, 2018 - 09:25am PT
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^ Hard. But do you see any aesthetic lines up that photo?
Some sick spines for board/two plank descent
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 17, 2018 - 09:50am PT
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We don’t have any real alpine mountains in the lower 48.
I hesitate to question JLP as he's pretty much omniscient, but the Tetons seem pretty alpine to me . . .
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 17, 2018 - 10:24am PT
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rgold said:
Climbers practicing hard alpinism have always been a small fraction of the climbing population. Now that new explosively-growing genres have been added, hard alpinists are destined to become an even smaller fraction of the total population, and so are decreasing in that sense, even if their numbers are increasing, albeit more slowly than the total population.
Disagree. From what I see, there has always been a certain percentage of climbers who dabble in the alpine. Let's say 5%. I don't see that percentage changing.
Kids I've known from the climbing gym (and, granted I know of them because we talk about alpine climbing), gravitate towards the alpine. Or at least dip a toe in. Some end up going "all in". Some get a taste and it doesn't take.
So...no...I don't see it ending at all. And there's plenty of alpine climbing and/or "alpinism" available in the lower 48.
If the conquest of a great peak brings moments of exultation and bliss, which in the monotonous, materialistic existence of modern times nothing else can approach, it also presents great dangers. It is not the goal of grand alpinism to face peril, but it is one of the tests one must undergo to deserve the joy of rising for an instant above the state of crawling grubs. But soon we have to start the descent. Suddenly I feel sad and despondent. I am well aware that a mountaineering victory is only a scratch in space But in spite of this, how sad I feel at leaving that crest ! On this proud and beautiful mountain we have lived hours of fraternal, warm and exalting nobility. Here for a few days we have ceased to be slaves and have really been men. It is hard to return to servitude. Lionel Terray
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 17, 2018 - 10:42am PT
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There isn't anything even remotely near the scale and difficulty in the lower 48 as the kinds of peaks killing off the guys listed in the OP. Holy sh!t no.
The Tetons are beginner land. Guys are going there now and knocking off the Grand Traverse as their first route - one and done - every peak in the range in under a day - then never coming back.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 17, 2018 - 10:45am PT
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We don’t have any real alpine mountains in the lower 48
I guess you haven’t been to the N Cascades. Not quite as big as the Alps but far more remote and untraveled.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Aug 17, 2018 - 10:50am PT
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When the last glacier melts from global warming ...
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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Aug 17, 2018 - 11:16am PT
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its just getting started. The stuff guys are doing now is so BADAASS. Look at any AAJ-two dudes in the middle of nowhere doing an FA of a 5000' mixed route at 22,000'I'm not going anywhere near it. It aint the Valley, it aint the Bugs or "high" sierra. I found this out when I stepped out of the plane on the Ruth Gorge and went oh no! And that place is kind of entry level? I had to suck it up because I didn't want to let my partner down, and did a few good routes. but realized it was not for me. Don't criticize what you don't understand, or can't do yourself. For more information read Barry Blanchard's book "Rocked by Mountains" then think about YOUR current proj. You'll know where you stand.
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RRad
Trad climber
Poway, CA
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Aug 17, 2018 - 03:39pm PT
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By death or by choice we all retire from alpinism at some point, older generations will vanish and newer generations will reach harder and higher with the benefit of knowing what is already possible. There will always be people who are attracted to the sharp edge of oblivion.
But I do wonder if some of the people who previously would be focusing mostly on hard alpinism might be more enamored with proximity flying...
Not sure if this podcast has been mentioned, but check out the Cleared Hot podcast #47 with Mark Twight, three hour long conversation that deals with death and the loss of friends over many years for both Andy Stumpf and Mark Twight: https://clearedhotpodcast.com/episodes/
Especially relevant is the fact that Mark Twight actually retired from hard alpinism by choice.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 17, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
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It might be instructive to ask Charlie Porter about the relative fulfillment inherent in a 1st ascent of El Cap versus crawling out of the Baffin Island 1st ascent on his hands and knees. This may be an overly simplistic way of thinking about it, but my guess would be the former would be more fun with less suffering; the latter more suffering and less fun.
If one were to to ski into TM in mid-winter and to some routes on Fairview Dome, that might be "Traditional rock climbing" with a bit of alpine flavor. Has anyone done this?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 17, 2018 - 03:55pm PT
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I do wish we could still ask Charlie...
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Aug 17, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
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" No Alpine climbing in the lower 48"
This picture of Charlie Fowler, on Longs Peak, just before the big fall,
comes to mind.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 17, 2018 - 06:01pm PT
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Longs Peak Oh the drama. I look like that shoveling my driveway. He's 2 hrs EZ walk to his car, ~70% on packed trail from all the traffic up there. Not that Long's isn't a pretty difficult objective in winter - but a joke in comparison - to even the Tetons.
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Aug 17, 2018 - 06:09pm PT
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Oh the drama. I look like that shoveling my driveway. He's 2 hrs EZ walk to his car, ~70% on packed trail from all the traffic up there. Not that Long's isn't a pretty difficult objective in winter - but a joke in comparison - to even the Tetons.
JLP: Just what is your definition an alpine climbing route?
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Aug 17, 2018 - 07:54pm PT
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There's always going to be dangerous routes that people will chose to do. Young people sit around, wondering how they can do it, and don't really start thinking about whether or not they should do it until about 25.
It's the Jeff Goldblum Jurrassic Park line, except instead of bringing T-rex back to 1994, it's applied to climbing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRNX6XJOeGU
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BeeTee
Social climber
Valdez Alaska
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Sep 23, 2018 - 10:29am PT
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I think the harsh realities of alpine are coming to light lately no doubt.....however sponsorship dollars more abundant now has an effect...plus given the fact the industry glosses over the realities .....I certainly have had been in the game to lose a number of close and not so close...in America it may die out but I don't see it slowing down from other countries...climbers forget families don't....as long as the industry keeps dedicating dollars and causes in the name of the unfortunate not much will change....I think it's an issue that could use some discussion but I don't see the industry leading the way on that...young folks these days aren't the hopeless romantics that once drove the sport...financial and practical reasons I could see the amateur alpinist would do well to reconsider there lifestyle choices...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 23, 2018 - 02:32pm PT
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Missed this....question must be posed by someone who hasn’t done hard alpinism. Nearly all of the alpinists I’ve known have been lifers. It’s uncomfortable, scary and dangerous but the siren call is hard to resist.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Sep 23, 2018 - 02:58pm PT
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Lack of accessibility is part of the appeal. It's not leaving soon.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Sep 23, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
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Donini: Nearly all of the alpinists I’ve known have been lifers.
Me too, although, the attrition rate amongst my social group due to death, family obligations, injuries, and illnesses, is appalling.
I've been on a bit of a hiatus from serious alpine climbing for a few years. I'm not getting any younger, but I still have goals and intentions. Right now I'm just happy that I can even continue to dream and plan, realistically, of pursuing such objectives.
See you in the creek this fall, Jim?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 23, 2018 - 04:27pm PT
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When are you coming down Mark?
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Sep 23, 2018 - 04:37pm PT
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Jim, Lisa and I will be around Moab from mid October to late November. We’ll definitely be in the creek for 1-2 day stints over that period. Would be fun to link up again!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 23, 2018 - 04:38pm PT
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Done
I’ll be around until Nov. 10 then off to NZ.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Sep 23, 2018 - 05:02pm PT
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Perfect, Jim. I’ll be in touch via email-
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 23, 2018 - 06:10pm PT
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Climbing guides and hard alpinism don’t always go hand in glove. Today’s best alpinists look for routes that are technically extremely challenging but as safe from objective hazards as possible. Having said that....”safe” in this context is a relative term.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 23, 2018 - 06:38pm PT
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Guides usually do a good job with their clients BUT this is about “hard alpinism” and NOT trade routes up mountains....there is a difference.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Sep 23, 2018 - 07:07pm PT
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I'm guessing "hard alpinists" aren't going extinct but they:
a) Don't spray about it online so you've never heard of them or
b) Are foreigners so we Americans ignore their achievements.
... but yeah- they unfortunately tend to die young.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 23, 2018 - 07:19pm PT
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Nearly all of the alpinists I’ve known have been lifers. Yeah - all 10 of you at any given time on the active roster, half dead before 40.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 23, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
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How about Josh Wharton or Jonny Walsh?
These guys have raced up the hardest stuff up here.
Walsh's first ascent of a hard affair on the N Face of Alberta was done in 18 hours hut to hut, first attempt.
Hard alpinism is alive and well as long as guys like this are active.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Sep 23, 2018 - 10:37pm PT
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Sep 23, 2018 - 11:00pm PT
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I was a climbing ranger on Rainier for the second half of the 1990’s, and in the early 90’s I was hanging frequently at the camps and climbing with the rangers there as a weekender- and I recall thinking the same thing about Willis Wall, and for that matter, similar routes anywhere- noting that they seemed to get more traffic in the 60’s and 70’s. In part that of course was all the FA’s of the different variations, but there were some repeat ascents. I can’t be certain but I don’t recall ever hearing of a Willis Wall ascent in the 90’s in my time working there. In fact since then I think maybe there’s been one or two at most.
Corniced ridges in Alaska and elsewhere also don’t see the attention they did 40 years ago. In general they might be a little safer than climbing under seracs....but I won’t be downplaying their dangers beyond that. Most of the premier, legitimately difficult corniced ridge routes in the central Alaska Range have between 1 and 3 ascents. Rising technical standards that have turned routes like the Moonflower into a day climb for some have not really made corniced ridges any easier or safer. They are just as terrifying and risky as they ever were.
I think the emphasis on all forms of climbing these days centers around technical difficulty, owing in part to the gym climbing generation, and I think this is why mountaineering has narrowed down its primary focus to the trade routes on the famous peaks; To make an admittedly broad generalization, Modern mountaineers largely just want to get to the summit by the easiest and safest routes possible. The obvious FA’s have been snagged and there’s little interest in extended approaches, objective hazatds, or dealing with the unknown. Alpinists by definition are focused more on pure technical difficulty and only a small number are interested in the routes where you’re pulling the devil’s tail by climbing under seracs or in serious rockfall zones.
But I definitely have had the same impression that routes with high objective hazards seemed to have gone through a popular phase decades ago. I look at some of the ascents made in Alaska in the 70’s and 80’s (Huntington’s east ridge and north face, Czech route on Foraker, south ridge and southeast spur of Hunter to name a few) and then look at what climbers are attempting today. It’s different- and I’m sure part of that also is that these sorts of routes were worth the risk for the notoriety or personal satisfaction of getting a first ascent, first alpine style ascent, etc. But with climate change making many routes considerably more hazardous, the risk just isn’t worth it for most.
The objective hazards of serious alpine climbing are legit and are almost always far higher than your average rock climbing venue. But it only takes one mistake in the belay chain to create a tragedy, whether you are on the Magic Line or Munginella. And in fact a significant number of the friends I knew who have died in the mountains lost their life because of a mistake in the belay chain, a momentary loss of attention at a critical time, or a questionable decision. These were things that easily could happen during a casual day at the crag.
Treat everything with full attention.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 24, 2018 - 06:48am PT
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“Acceptable risk thresholds” are often a function of how much a person wants to do a route. I’ve seen some serious rationalization concerning objective dangers because a route was very compelling. There is no definitive “acceptible” risk threshold...it lies strictly in the eyes of the beholder.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Sep 24, 2018 - 07:12am PT
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Hard alpinism ends at the point the climber wears a full on space suit with climate control and O2. Although if I were to climb a big Himalayan peak, I'd wear one too.
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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Sep 24, 2018 - 07:28am PT
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It all sounds scary! 😊
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Sep 24, 2018 - 07:51am PT
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If you don't think hard alpinism is alive and well you probably haven't looked at your most recent American Alpine Journal. Before you file it on the shelf go ahead and open it. It has pictures and everything.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 24, 2018 - 12:22pm PT
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Is self supported, non sponsored, self funded alpinism going to end is a better question?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 24, 2018 - 02:10pm PT
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johnkelley, touché!
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Trump
climber
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Sep 24, 2018 - 02:12pm PT
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I think I know the most famous rock climber who seems to take the biggest risks, but I’m not so sure I know who the rock climber who’s the most technically proficient is.
Does hard alpinism mean technically hard, or riskily hard? Seems like the attention goes more to the latter, at least in rock climbing?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 25, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
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I like to think that technical difficulty is the most important ingredient in hard alpinism, but a certain amount of risk is inherent in all alpinism. Objective dangers abound and good alpinists mitigate them via timing and route selection. Risk can be mitigated but never completely eliminated.
A lot of the risk in pure rock climbing is artificially introduced by the style in which one climbs...free soloing being an obvious example.
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