How to make sure CA homes keep burning

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August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 15, 2018 - 05:01pm PT

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-15/why-two-years-of-historic-wildfires-haven-t-made-southern-california-safer

But according to Steinberg and others, there are changes that can help—including applying tougher building codes to more new homes, retrofitting old ones, more aggressive landscape rules, less development in the most vulnerable areas, and letting insurers charge premiums that reflect the risk of wildfire. Those reforms, however, remain anathema in a state squeezed by rising housing costs and the instinct to help communities rebuild as quickly as possible.


A tougher issue is what to do about homes that predate the 2008 code. When it comes to wildfires, a building is only as safe as the homes around it: If a house ignites, odds are that the one next door will too, even if it’s built to the new standards.

But Lehmann says California goes too far in the other direction, preventing insurers from raising rates based on projected future losses from worsening wildfires. Nor can insurers take into account the rising costs of reinsurance, another indicator that risks are increasing.

Since last year’s fires, lawmakers have introduced bills to make it harder for insurers to raise rates or cancel coverage for homeowners in high-risk areas.

“We get a lot of pressure from people who are worried about the impact of climate change and all sorts of failures to adapt,” he says. “And yet when we try to provide the signals that many clamor for us to provide, then others don’t like how it looks.”

This is as bad as the state of Florida picking up the insurance cost for flooding and, implicitly, sea level rise.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
Using the Way Back Machine, it is possible to divine (augur?) a solution to California's flammable housing problem:

Adopt the fire-proof building code (Neronian Building Code) that was enacted in Rome in 64 AD following a devastating fire.


One bonus is that fire-proof construction is also termite proof, and is typically more durable than current methods (i.e. sticks, OSB, drywall and stucco). Another bonus is that a building that is predominantly masonry, as opposed to insulation, has better thermal properties with respect to temperature excursions throughout the day; air-conditioning requirements would be reduced.


A typical house in California lasts 50 years before requiring a complete renovation, or tear-down. Termite and dry-rot damage are common afflictions of older, timber-framed homes.

A typical building from Ancient Rome still exists after 2000 years. Many fireproof buildings in Rome, Italy, and elsewhere, have been renovated over the centuries and are still in use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria_degli_Angeli_e_dei_Martiri




Just one example of an alternative building system that (almost) conforms to the Neronian Building Code of 64 is Rastra Block construction.

https://www.rastra.com/

Rastra Blocks are oversized CMUs that are assembled with rebar and grouted to produce an insulated orthogonal grid of reinforced concrete struts. The Rastra company has conducted structural tests to facilitate approval by local building departments (c.f. Simpson Strong-Tie Company's numerous products).


Rastra blocks are made from styrofoam pellets and portland cement, which is not ideal for fire-resistance, and resulting fumes would be toxic. A better system would be to use expanded perlite in place of the styrofoam, and a higher-alumina fire cement. Perlite and fire cement are commonly used as refractory materials in kilns and other applications involving very high temperatures.

The orthogonal grid of the Rastra Block system could be readily adapted to an isotropic grid, or otherwise triangulated grid, for improved lateral stiffness (i.e., earthquake strength).


The key would be have insurance companies offer discounts for fire insurance for adherence to the Neroian Building Code of 64, or its modern equivalent. There must be a financial incentive to building houses that are slightly more expensive initially, but that have a lower overall life-cycle cost.

A tax-benefit scheme from Sacramento, that further incentivized fire-proof architecture, would also be quite helpful.


neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Aug 15, 2018 - 06:00pm PT
hey there, say, august, tom, DMT... oh my...

thanks for sharing...

*i remeber a friend, and her worries about future flood insurance
troubles... she lived near the levees...
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
About 8 years ago my buddy was building a cabin in the San Bernardino mountains and was using a local and well established contractor. I looked at the plans and estimates and noticed wood siding. Are you serious...in that tender box?!

I took a drive up there and was suprised to see almost all wood siding going up on the new builds with very few preventative fire measures. I talked the builder into using Hardi Siding and trim as long as I had it shipped up there. It's so much cheaper than wood siding- you can use the savings to have fire rated drywall installed underneath. I'm sure things have changed in those 8 years.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That would be one application for a durable housing structure.

Another would be a three-bedroom home for a family of four.

Yet another, which I don't champion, would be an 8-bedroom, 12-bath home for a retired couple of two, with too much money, who have adapted all those extra rooms for superfluous activities, such as a dedicated "gift-wrapping room" (c.f. Aaron and Candy Spelling's house in Los Angeles).


The idea I have is a house that, after a devastating wild fire, only has to have the landscaping replaced.

What people do with their fireproof, durable house is up to them. It's a free country.


Ancient Rome existed for several hundred years before Emperor Nero decreed a new, fireproof building code to ensure that Rome was the Eternal City.

Nero's family, the Gens Claudia, apparently controlled the brick and concrete business at the time, which is another discussion, altogether.




cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Aug 15, 2018 - 09:01pm PT
I think precast concrete homes for forested areas would be a good idea if you really don't want your home to burn down. But at 2 to 3 x the construction cost, it just makes financial sense to build a cheap but flammable home and rebuild if it burns down. Even with these massive fires, I'm sure the odds are still less than 1 in 100 forest homes in CA will burn down in an owner's lifetime.

Full disclaimer: I'm in the precast concrete business, so I'd be really be happy if everyone in the foothills started building precast homes :)
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 09:07pm PT
At the very least, a precast bomb shelter.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Aug 15, 2018 - 09:08pm PT
Keep building them in thickly forested and brushy terrain.
I agree with Jody.
pb

Sport climber
Sonora Ca
Aug 15, 2018 - 09:24pm PT
We could plant concrete trees too.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
A cliffside house with a magnificent view, in a heavily forested area, is where the juice is.

Lcation, location, location.





But at 2 to 3 x the construction cost,

Is it really that much higher? I know conventional concrete walls would be cost-prohibitive. But, what about something like those popcorn Rastra Blocks? They result in a 12" CMU wall with vertical and horizontal reinforced concrete struts. The construction cost would be similar to that of a conventional CMU building, which is commonly done in places like Florida.





Perhaps pious legal gambling in California comprises a good fire insurance policy, and a prayerful Christian faith that those Justin Bieber bedroom wall posters will be destroyed.

Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
In the Middle of the Earth, in the land of Shire,
Lives a brave little hobbit whom we all admire.
With his long, wooden pipe, and fuzzy, wooly toes,
He lives in a hobbit-hole and everybody knows him . . . Bilbo.


Mister Spock knew that durable architecture was logical.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
johntp

Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
Aug 15, 2018 - 11:07pm PT
I think precast concrete homes for forested areas would be a good idea if you really don't want your home to burn down.

Concrete/brick can be damaged beyond repair in an intense fire.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 11:17pm PT
As compared to 2x4s and stucco?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 16, 2018 - 08:16am PT
Someone called?
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Aug 16, 2018 - 08:53am PT
Nawmean: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2720258&msg=3043108#msg3043108
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Aug 16, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
what brand cragnshag?

https://www.willisconstruction.com/

Is it really that much higher?

Yes- for architectural precast, because there would be almost no repetition- 1 form for every panel. If you could make 500 of the exact same house, then the price would drop to maybe 1.5x conventional wood framed construction.

If you are talking CMU block type construction, I don't know, but it could be close to same price as conventional depending on the seismic constraints of where you build. I think that aesthetics may be an issue with CMU block (your home might look like an overgrown outhouse).

Concrete/brick can be damaged beyond repair in an intense fire.
Yes, for sure in cases where there is a substantial fuel source 6 feet away from the house. If you keep a modest amount of space around the precast home clear from big fuel sources (big trees, wood piles, etc) and the neighbors house is more than 20' away, it should be OK. Burning shrubbery at the perimeter of the house wouldn't be enough to do much damage to concrete.



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 16, 2018 - 02:37pm PT
I have foot thick concrete outer walls. They pay for themselves with almost nonexistent AC cost (used the AC for 13-14 hours total for the whole summer so far).

Everyone wants to get bailed out but nobody wants to pay for it.
And its gonna get worse with global warming. First a really bad fire and then a juiced up rain bomb= worse mudslides than we've seen.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 16, 2018 - 02:38pm PT
ICF would work, and is adaptable to almost any style structure. The r-value doesn’t hurt either.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2018 - 04:37pm PT
But at 2 to 3 x the construction cost, it just makes financial sense to build a cheap but flammable home and rebuild if it burns down. Even with these massive fires, I'm sure the odds are still less than 1 in 100 forest homes in CA will burn down in an owner's lifetime.

Even if that is your attitude, I don't see why other insurance payers should subsidize someone living in a high risk area. The insurance company should be able to charge the real cost of the less than 1 in a 100 chance of burning down in a forest.

But,

It isn't just money. These fires can kill people. If the houses are close enough together, a tender box house can catch on fire and then cause semi-fire resistant house next door to burn although it might otherwise have survived.

In the small picture, the cost is rebuilding the house. In the big picture, tax payers pay for a lot of other things. They might pay for the family to stay in a shelter. They pay when a disaster area is declared and owners of burned down houses get tax payer money and/or subsidized loans. They indirectly pay when a person who had a job and was paying taxes is out of work for six months (and collecting unemployment benefits?) because they are living in a shelter and their place of work doesn't exist, or their place of work exists but they moved 100 miles away because there isn't any housing near their place of work.

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2018 - 04:40pm PT
build on the coast, you get wiped out by a tsunami, build along the fault line, you get wiped out by an earthquake, build in the forest, you get wiped out by a forest fire, build in the central valley, you get killed by a meth freak or die from asthma, build along a river and your home washes away, build in the gulf of Mexico and you get wiped out by a hurricane, build in the state of Texas and get killed by a red neck, build in the state of Kansas and you get wiped out by a tornado, build in Alaska and you freeze to death, build a house in LA and you die from drugs and alcohol, fire, an earthquake, a tsunami, asthma, or get killed by a heroin addict.
may as well dig a grave and crawl in, too much fear.

I'm not saying live in fear or don't build in the forest.

I am saying, that nobody should subsidize you to live there. Same with tsunami, fault line, flooding, etc.

We shouldn't be requiring insurance companies to offer below market/actuarial rates that are paid for by other home owners (in safer locations) having higher insurance rates than they otherwise would.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
Its tough for politicians pandering for campaign funding from voters and special interests alike. But of course its also so easy for us voters to blame the politicians.

At the heart of it all, we get the government we elect. The market will out, eventually.

Hopefully the highest risk counties will lead the way with building codes.

Sure, there are a lot of reasons we are in the fix we are in and our politics leave a lot to be desired.

Better building codes can surely help.

I'm not sure I follow your comment about the market. Politicians look keen to keep the market forces out because home owners don't want to face up to the actual cost of where they live.
TLP

climber
Aug 16, 2018 - 04:55pm PT
August, your point is excellent but focusing on the wrong peril (fire), which is so unpredictable. In fact, the majority of the lost homes in these attention-getting fires result from a basically urban fire spread - house to house, sometimes even leaving green vegetation nearby or even in between the destroyed houses. Look at aerials of the Waldo Fire, Coffey Park, etc, etc, and you will see. The number of lost houses that are actually in the WUI, where the jacked up insurance rates would be applied, is relatively small. It's a certainty the insurance industry would not price accordingly. They'll hammer the smaller number of policy holders hard, because they can.

The other issue is, once there's a fire, the fire risk to remaining or rebuilt structures is greatly reduced by the minimal fuel load for 5, 10, 20 years. Will those rates go way back down as they should? Not likely.

How about this principle starts and gets all the kinks worked out with an extremely predictable hazard, flooding. In contrast to fires, locations that have flooded once are nearly certain to flood again, just a matter of how soon. Our floodplain maps aren't that good, and don't account for development and its impervious cover, but they're still WAY more accurate than fire risk mapping. Yet all taxpayers, not just other policyholders, are subsidizing ill advised coastal and floodplain development. We know the numbers, we know the risk with very high degree of accuracy and return interval, but here we are, still, insurance rates for sure-to-flood development are still priced at a tiny fraction of what they should be. Fix that one first, then let's talk about fire insurance, tornado, whatever. Until that, just stuff the idea in the waste bin, it doesn't deserve to go anywhere.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Aug 16, 2018 - 10:04pm PT
I don't see why other insurance payers should subsidize someone living in a high risk area.

I didn't know that they were. Why would insurance rates in fire-prone areas be subsidized? And by whom? Is there some nanny-state law mandating this? I would think the insurance companies would charge the appropriate rate for the actual risk. Otherwise, they would not be in business for very long.

I believe that Cal-Fire already charges a fee to CA homeowners who live in high risk areas. Probably not enough to cover their costs, though.
TLP

climber
Aug 16, 2018 - 10:05pm PT
The powers that be (damn tree huggers and loggers both) have made it nearly impossible to effectively manage hazardous fuels in national foreats.

Sorry, that's complete horse manure. Neither "group" has posed any significant impediment to genuine fuels management projects, which have been carried out on a large scale in national forests and elsewhere. The problem is that the scale needs to be even 100X or 10000X more than has been done to date, and that's really expensive.

Sales of large-caliber timber masquerading as management of hazardous fuels, that's another matter. But those projects do exactly zero for fuels management or fire risk reduction.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Aug 16, 2018 - 10:08pm PT
Looks like this Cal-Fire fee has been discontinued...

http://www.fire.ca.gov/firepreventionfee/

10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Aug 16, 2018 - 10:45pm PT
Timber sales need to be paid not in cash but in supervised thinning work.
I believe they do that in certain areas of northern Arizona.
cleo

Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
Aug 17, 2018 - 11:01am PT
precast concrete = possible deathtrap in an earthquake...


fire, flood, or earthquake = pick one and live with it in california!
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2018 - 12:12pm PT
August, your point is excellent but focusing on the wrong peril (fire), which is so unpredictable. In fact, the majority of the lost homes in these attention-getting fires result from a basically urban fire spread - house to house, sometimes even leaving green vegetation nearby or even in between the destroyed houses. Look at aerials of the Waldo Fire, Coffey Park, etc, etc, and you will see. The number of lost houses that are actually in the WUI, where the jacked up insurance rates would be applied, is relatively small. It's a certainty the insurance industry would not price accordingly. They'll hammer the smaller number of policy holders hard, because they can.

In the absence of state laws that prevent it, why wouldn't the insurance companies take urban fire spread into account. I would think that houses in a place like Redding, that is surrounded by forests, would have a higher fire risk than a place like Davis, surrounded by farmland.

The actuaries are pretty good at crunching the numbers. I don't think setting insurance companies free are going to save us, but if people in the urban center of small towns surrounded by forest/shrub start seeing their fire rates go up, maybe the community would start taking fire prevention for the entire community more seriously. Including things like clearing forest next to the town and more serious building codes.

And in addition to more serious building codes for new structures, CA should think through what would be cost effective as far as requiring retro-fitting of existing structures.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2018 - 12:17pm PT
Insurance companies will bone you raw given the chance don’t give them the chance.

I don't have any great love of the insurance industry. Documenting what you have is certainly a good idea.

But, again, one of the main points for why I started this thread:

The insurance industry is probably better placed to calculate the future costs of disasters made worse by climate change, than anybody else. (They are interested in selling policies, not identity politics, and they have a really, really big financial stake in getting the numbers correct)

Unless the insurance industry is prevented from doing that by legislatures that don't want voters to have to face up to reality.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Aug 17, 2018 - 12:54pm PT
precast concrete = possible deathtrap in an earthquake...

Not even close. Precast structures are designed by licensed civil/structural engineers to seismic code. This is one of the reasons why it is so expensive.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 17, 2018 - 12:58pm PT
Wait until one of these rain bombs hits a 80,000 acre fire scar.

Welcome to the new normal.
cleo

Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
Aug 17, 2018 - 01:20pm PT
Not even close. Precast structures are designed by licensed civil/structural engineers to seismic code. This is one of the reasons why it is so expensive


Sounds affordable for single family homes!

Also... they don't always work under seismic loading, even when new and built to code. I'm trying to now imagine how that would work with thousands (millions?) of homes where half of them are DIY, unpermitted, etc...

Are there cheap, precast kit homes that meet seismic code? Does that exist? Or is this a "business opportunity"?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 17, 2018 - 02:57pm PT
Really? Nobody is familiar with ICF’s?

Super strong, easily adaptable (as I said earlier) not cost probihitive. No, it’s not precast, but it’s concrete that’s quite thick and obviously there’s rebar helping join everything. My neighbor built one and it looks like a traditional New England home but it performs like a LEED platinum certified home. We don’t have the fire or earthquake danger here thankfully, but this building style is good to go in both of those climates. Worth a look.
cleo

Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
Aug 17, 2018 - 04:22pm PT
so reinforced concrete is being sold as precast or building block forms, for residential homes?

I'm genuinely curious - if it is a) affordable b) easy to construct (easy for existing contractors to adapt to), and c) seismically safe, it could be a good solution for new homes out near the big burn.

home construction is already expensive enough in california, so... affordability might be the biggest obstacle.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Aug 17, 2018 - 07:42pm PT
I work in precast, but live in a wood house. It's just economics. I'd rather live in a concrete house, but I can't afford it. Timber construction is just so much cheaper and easier.

Many companies have tried to market modular precast homes, but they are simply more expensive, so it has never taken off as a common building material for single family homes. Architectural precast is a good solution for large construction projects (high rise towers, hospitals, etc.) due to repetition, almost no maintenance, aesthetics, and longevity.

One of these days, I'd like to design and build a precast home, but probably not until the kids are on their own and I have time and money to spare.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2018 - 08:44pm PT

I'm genuinely curious - if it is a) affordable b) easy to construct (easy for existing contractors to adapt to), and c) seismically safe, it could be a good solution for new homes out near the big burn.

This country is stuck on only building stick houses because that is what contractors building [relatively] cheap houses do.

Not all countries do that. Germany doesn't build residential housing using wood.

There would be upfront cost, but if CA made changes to the building code that resulted in a significant number of non-wood houses being built, costs would drop, a lot.

Once upon a time, wind turbines and solar panels were un-economic (without subsidies).

It is all about economy of scales.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
Wait until one of these rain bombs hits a 80,000 acre fire scar.

Welcome to the new normal.

Yea, but you better enjoy the new normal why you can.

In 10~15 years, our current "normal" will be the good old days and people will be moaning about the "new normal".
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Aug 17, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
Craziest video I have seen of the Carr fire tornado and waterspout.

That's the Colorado river.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2018 - 11:31pm PT
Buried inside of the commentary about the bill concerning PG&E liability for fire, I saw that a bill was also signed regarding home owner's fire insurance in high risk areas.

I tried to find a good summary of what it does and doesn't do, but no success.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 23, 2018 - 05:27am PT
Attempts to repeal the law of supply and demand will probably continue as long as people have governments. They usually work about as well as attempts to repeal the law of gravity. Sad to say, California is not unique in its contribution of data on this issue.

John
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