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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 11, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
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Even now there are thoughts of sub one hour, I'm sure. Of course the partner will have to be dispensed with
Unless it is done free solo, I don't see how a sub-one hour attempt on the Nose could be done by a climber without a partner.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 11, 2018 - 02:45pm PT
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Fourth Estate
Rope-a-dope!
Couldn't resist.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 11, 2018 - 04:52pm PT
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There may be relatives of the deceased climbers reading this thread.
Let's be a little sensitive and not post pics like that.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Denver CO
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Jun 11, 2018 - 04:55pm PT
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I hope Honnold and Caldwell will move on to a more inspiring next project. Setting the Nose speed record right after this tragedy seems kind of cold-hearted, and reminds me of the records people set on Mt. Everest.
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solrac
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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Jun 11, 2018 - 06:04pm PT
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As a family member of Jason Wells and a climber.... Thanks to all who provide with your wise words comfort for our pain.....it is really awesome to read directly the words of the elders and of some youth of our tribe.... I have never commented here at suportopo... but the noose up here in the previous comments really bothers me..... so please lets keep it respectful ...can we please take it down, thanks !
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Paulito
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jun 11, 2018 - 07:03pm PT
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Perhaps the exploits of others indirectly had something to do with these tragic deaths. And perhaps these tragic deaths will give others pause, and thus save future lives. Searching for something good from this. Anything.
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Longstick
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:14pm PT
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You may find the following to be insightful. I did.
Dr. Tom Hornbein from “Everest: The West Ridge” …after the first summit of the West Ridge of Everest… w/Willi U. who lost many toes to frostbite:
//"We’d climbed Everest. What good was it to Jake? To Willi, to Barrel? To Norman, with Everest all done now? And to the rest of us? What waits? What price less tangible than toes? There must be something more to it than toiling over the top of another, albeit expensive, mountain. Perhaps there was something of the nobility-that-is-man in it somewhere, but it was hard to be sure.
Yes, it satisfied in a way. Not just climbing the mountain, but the entire effort-the creating something, the few of us molding it from the beginning. With a lot of luck we’d succeeded. But what had we proved?
Existence on a mountain is simple. Seldom in life does it come any simpler: survival, plus the striving toward the summit. The goal is solidly, three-dimensionally there – you can see it, touch it, stand upon it – the way to reach it well defined, the energy of all directed toward its achievement. It is this simplicity that strips the veneer of civilization and makes that which is meaningful easier to come by – the pleasure of deep companionship, moments of uninhibited humor, the tasting of hardship, sorrow, beauty, joy. But it is this very simplicity that may prevent finding answers to the questions I had asked as we approached the mountain.
Then I had been unsure that I could survive and function in a world so foreign to my normal existence. Now I felt at home here, no longer overly afraid. Each step toward Kathmandu carried me back toward the known, yet toward many things terribly unknown, toward goals unclear, to be reached by paths undefined.
Beneath fatigue lurked the suspicion that the answers I sought were not to be found on a mountain. What possible difference could climbing Everest make? Certainly the mountain hadn’t been changed. Even now wind and falling snow would have obliterated most signs of our having been there. Was I any greater for having stood on the highest place on earth? Within the wasted figure that stumbled weary and fearful back toward home there was no question about the answer to that one.
It had been a wonderful dream, but now all that lingered was the memory. The dream was ended.
Everest must join realities of my existence, commonplace and otherwise. The goal, unattainable, had been attained. Or had it? The questions, many of them remained. And the answers? It is strange how when a dream is fulfilled there is little left but doubt.//"
To which I add three unoriginal thoughts that I have been trying to learn and apply:
One is that you should find enjoyment in all your endeavors, especially in the few days of youth and the life that God gives you. If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years… but his soul is not satisfied with life’s good things, … a stillborn child is better off than he.
Second, share your life. Bring many friends and family into your heart. If that is hard, ask yourself why. And make changes.
Third, “Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.” Eccles 12:13
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HoMan
Trad climber
Wasteville,CA
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:50pm PT
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I hope Honnold and Caldwell will move on to a more inspiring next project. Setting the Nose speed record right after this tragedy seems kind of cold-hearted, and reminds me of the records people set on Mt. Everest.
Perhaps it was a tribute?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 11, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
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As a family member of Jason Wells and a climber.... Thanks to all who provide with your wise words comfort for our pain.....it is really awesome to read directly the words of the elders and of some youth of our tribe.... I have never commented here at suportopo... but the noose up here in the previous comments really bothers me..... so please lets keep it respectful ...can we please take it down, thanks !
solrac, it looks like the post was deleted. Thanks for coming here and peace to you and your family.
John
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Jun 11, 2018 - 09:29pm PT
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This thread has been characterized by some of the best and worst of this forum.
We may never know exactly what precipitated the fall.
One thing seems clear and simple to me; through some combination of chance and a possible error in judgement, the rope didn't remain adequately connected to the terrain to arrest the fall and apparently failed over an edge.
I'm not comfortable categorizing simul climbing and speed climbing as separate sports or vilifying the practice; they're just techniques in an inherently dangerous activity that we can use judiciously to our benefit and at our peril.
I also think we should try our best to honour the memory of two dedicated humans, think of those left to grieve the loss and resist the all too human urge to pass judgement on their actions.
I think there are, to a greater or lesser degree, broader implications unique to our culture and agree with Largo that we should be able to examine and discuss whether our cultural paradigm and social messaging may have contributed to this incident with the hope we may prevent similar ones in the future.
Respect,
PB
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 12, 2018 - 06:05am PT
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It’s about finding your absolute personal best, somewhere in there, and being inspired to do so by your peers. Without this process, in sport, in technology, it’s been going on since the beginning of everything, mankind is less and life is a bore.
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bixquite
Social climber
humboldt nation
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Jun 12, 2018 - 07:30am PT
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I lost my sister to leukemia a couple years ago and like every human have faced the great unknown void of a world without a beautiful soul that was. I treasure the uncertainty of where I end and the Universe begins. It lends it self to a Zen riddle, but brings me closer to Nicole in those wild places in nature that we seek.
"The more that you give the more it will take to the thin line beyond which we really can't fake"
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 12, 2018 - 10:49am PT
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I'll try to put together some words around risk. Maybe obvious stuff, but here's goes.
There's risk in almost everything. 1 in 25 lifetime odds of a fatality from an unintentional cause. 1 in 102 from motor vehicle crash. 1 in 3138 from choking on food, one in 205,551 from a plane crash. Source.
It's interesting that people worry about plane crashes and terrorism when clearly motor vehicle crashes are so much more risky over the course of your lifetime.
Male smokers are 22 times more likely to get lung cancer than non-smokers. 1/2 of lifelong smokers die before 70.
Statistics can help organize your thinking but many accidents are the result of human error, so people who are more careful (don't use their phones or speed/tailgate in cars for example) are less likely to be in an accident.
Someone could do super risky activities and live to an old age. Someone else could be super careful and die from a external accidental cause. Someone could smoke and not get lung cancer and live to an old age. There's random chance involved as well.
So when undertaking risky activities you aren't committing yourself to an accident and being super safe and avoiding risk doesn't guarantee you won't be in one. There's just a greater chance with more risky activities and being less careful. It's up to all of us to decide how much risk we want to face.
Some people are obviously okay with more risk; I think a lot of that is inherent to the personalities people we are mostly born with. We all know (or maybe we are) the people that are okay with taking big riks. These are often the people who end up with more broken bones or near misses or fatalities. I remember hearing about Travis Pastrana breaking 60 bones, and getting 25 concussions and realizing part of his ability is his willingness to get hurt pushing his limits. If someone is not willing to get hurt they won't be able to be at the top of a lot of sports nowadays like freestyle skiing/snowboarding, freestyle motocross, football, etc. The sports have progressed so much and the possibility of injury is so high in these sports that it takes a certain personality with risk acceptance to be at the top of those sports.
I guess to sum up there's a random chance element of risk, there's the how risky is the activity you're doing element of risk, and there's the how careful are you being element of risk, and probably others I'm not smart enough to know about. A particular accident could have 1, 2, all 3 or more as primary factors.
I just think we tend to focus on one of these factors when really there's usually multiple things at play. Sure you increase risk with your behaviors and choices, but that doesn't mean an accident will happen, it's just probably more likely. And as I said earlier we all make our own choices and weight those against the rewards, and I'm not going to say my choices (risk tolerance) should apply to anyone else. I also said a lot of people think we are crazy for rock climbing AT ALL, and though they are entitled to their opinion I don't believe they know enough about me, and what I'm doing, and it's benefits to really make that conclusion.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Jun 12, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
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it is like sky diving, how does the thrill you get from those few minutes of free fall compare to all the experiences you could have accumulated during your life had you not killed yourself sky diving?
Skydiving 'aint all that risky. And those few minutes of free fall might energize you for the rest of your life, or at least until the next Saturday morning you are lucky enough to tumble out of a plane with your friends.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Jun 12, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
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I talked to an engineer about risk. He also happens to be a mountain rescuer. He told me there are two mathematical aspects to risk. The likelihood of a bad thing happening and the consequences if it does. Airplane crashes have low likelihood and high consequences. Car crashes are high likelihood of happening and lower consequences most of the time. Sounds like these guys were in the low likelihood where they fell with their abilities.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 12, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
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The likelihood of a bad thing happening and the consequences if it does.
Another excellent way to frame your thoughts/decisions.
it is like sky diving, how does the thrill you get from those few minutes of free fall
As mentioned skydiving isn't that risky. Statistically it's one person per 100,000 jumps. And I'd guess a big part of that is the "how careful are you" (e.g. are you going to wait until you are low before you deploy or are you going to attempt sharp turns under canopy close to the ground). And I guess also another component of how cool are you under pressure and able to make quick decisions when things go wrong. If something goes wrong skydiving (often a problem with your main chute) you have some time to cutaway your main chute and use your reserve (which must be packed be a master rigger so there's very little chance it won't work right). Personally I've only skydived a few times but I think I'd be in the category of jumping safely as possible so I'd hope my risk level was low, and that's totally worth it to me to be able to fly for 60 seconds at a time.
the peak excitement level might be greater for Class 5 Part of the story is pushing the limits. Once Class 4 becomes routine you need Class 5 to generate the same excitement you had previously on Class 4, but Class 5 is more risky. A lot of sports play out like that, climbing included.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2018 - 01:42pm PT
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Regarding your whitewater analogy, I don’t think climbing necessarily plays out the same way.
A lot of people increase their climbing excitement by climbing ever increasing grades of difficulty without increasing their risk level at all. The argument can be made that leading steeper, harder climbs is safer...it’s not how far you fall, it’s what you come into contact with before the rope catches you.
There are those who climb ropeless or do ever more sketchy routes as their skill increases but I believe they are a minority.
Now consider close proximity wingsuit flying. As skill increases more risks are taken by shaving off more inches between you and the wall.
A high percentage of deaths in wingsuit flying are with the elite...quite the opposite in rock climbing.
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Quasimodo
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2018 - 02:30pm PT
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IMHO: Each person's risk tolerance varies greatly depending on their individual abilities, upbringing and motivation.
My biggest fear is avoiding manageable risk thereby losing out on life's great adventures and experiences.
I witnessed Michael Reardon solo countless hard routes only to be taken out by a large wave. Recently, I read about Charlotte Fox's, a prolific high altitude mountaineer, fatal fall down the stairs in her home. Life is full of hazards, some more obvious than others. Just stepping off the curb in Los Angeles is dangerous. I plan to follow my dreams like Charlotte, tempered by the limitations of my abilities, before my time is up on the amazing planet.
Charlotte Fox Short Bio:
//Born in Greensboro, NC, and described by friends as having “Southern charm” and strong work ethic, Fox came to Colorado after college and made her home there. She was the first American woman to climb three 8,000-meter peaks (Gasherbrum II, Cho Oyu, and Everest). She went on to climb two more 8,000-meter peaks—Dhaulagiri and Manaslu—and ticked off each of the tallest peaks on the continents. For her final of the Seven Summits, Mount Elbrus in 2014, an all-women team raised nearly $10,000 for the dZi Foundation, a Ridgeway, Colorado-based nonprofit that serves remote, underserved communities in Nepal. Fox skied off the summit. She also explored her own backyard. She had climbed all 54 of Colorado’s peaks above 14,000 feet, or 14ers, and was a ski patroller for three decades, first in Aspen, then Telluride.
Though she turned 61 on May 10, she had not slowed down. On May 3, Fox returned to Telluride from an attempt at another Himalayan peak, 23,389-foot Baruntse, a climb her team aborted because their guide didn’t seem up to the task, as she told me and my husband, Ben Clark, while walking her beloved dog, Gus, down main street on the day of her fateful fall. As it was the weekend of the 40th annual Mountainfilm, she had houseguests at the time. Having survived so much adversity in the mountains, Fox’s death in her own home shocked and saddened the climbing community near and far.
“Charlotte Fox told us to quit talking about our dreams and just get after them—now,” says longtime friend and mountaineer Jordan Campbell. “Her inspired mountaineering life was a crazy mix of love, friendship, fire, humor, and grand heroics, which brought out the best in all of us. She had triumph and tragedy woven through her years on 8,000-meter peaks, backcountry skiing, rock climbing, and with her relationships. Charlotte was a standout leader of North American mountaineering early on and never wavered or changed course. We were always in awe of her and the life she led…the hole in our hearts is gaping.”//
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Patrice Ayme
Social climber
Earth
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Jun 13, 2018 - 12:04am PT
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Condolences to all, especially the children (alive, or to come). Death is intrinsic to the nature of climbing, and it's not a game but playing with fate (approximately half of Orangutans have fractures, from falls… and they climb all day long).
My closest friends died in the mountains, and I had all too many close calls, in spite of extreme caution…. But including from rock avalanches (even in Chamonix).
However, patterns have been discerned. Easy ground is the most dangerous (from the tendency to a dearth of pro and caution). Lionel Terray (and his younger, star partner also a guide), fell on steep grass exiting the Bouclier du Gerbier. Gervasutti fell, freeing a rappel, etc.
Simul climbing is safer than soloing if one puts (and can put...) enough gear. On big mountains, soloing or simul climbing can't be avoided, it reduces time exposed to objective dangers like weather or avalanches. However one has to put plenty of gear. Many expert climbers think they can dispense of pro on, say, 5-7, because they have onsighted 5-13... Not so. Falls are falls. Each time I thought I was in grave danger, I didn't fall: I was terrified enough to cling to the rock, including once when I was pulled off my a huge rock avalanche. Each long, potentially fatal, fall was a surprise.
Mountain running is sort of safe, one would think. However, I nearly got killed (in surprise) falls, quite a few times (each time lack of concentration was involved). Many a climber died, or got severely hurt, in flights of stairs (Edlinger, Messner, etc.)
Experts tend to become over-confident with gravity, and to believe surprises won't happen. I argued several times with my closest friends (now killed by the mountains), that they were taking silly risks (like being unroped at the belays while rapping a mile high wall: rocks and humoristic birds happen… Or soloing just because they could: Bachar’s death was totally unsurprising, as many expert climbers, this friend of mine systematically took unnecessary risks, and the habit transferred from rock to road… I have known more than one climber who, like Gullich, fell asleep at the wheel (happened to me once, but my partner woke me up before I left the freeway).
Rule number one of high morality types: never, ever, take silly risks while climbing, only necessary risks... there are enough of those.
No unnecessary risks, especially when one has others who are loved so much, that one's duty is not as much to oneself, as to those others… Humanity starts, by trusting the heart, more than the rock.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 13, 2018 - 02:28pm PT
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Good analysis, Patrice.
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