Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Alpinista55
Mountain climber
Portland, OR
|
|
I haven't climbed on El Cap since spending a crazy 10 days on Mescalito with Survival back in the 80's. Mostly I was into extreme alpinism in the Alaska Range, where the objective hazards were way more intense. Somehow I lived through 7 expeditions, experiencing cravasse falls, cornice colapse, near misses by huge ice avalanches, and a 100' fall in the dark at -20 degrees. I escaped with only one or two serious injuries, which led to some intense discussions with my wife about the future and our plans for having a family.
I made the decision then that the risk was too great. I had people that were depending on my continued existence, and I throttled back my alpinism to easy days in the Cascades and Sierras. I have children and grandchildren today that might never have been had I continued to climb at that level.
Tim and Jason surely knew the risks of their style of climbing, and counted on their skill and experience to mitigate the risk, just as we all do. I'm pretty sure that they must have had conversations similar to my own with their families, and had reached their own accommodations. Most of the time the calculas of skill:risk works out in our favor. When it doesn't, it is tragic for all involved. R.I.P.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
In his book, Largo called it a "Jesus nut." I think the simul-climbing team forgot about the importance of a piece between them, even on piss-easy ground. But who knows, maybe the Jesus nut pulled like pad of butter rolling off hot toast.
There seem to have been few rock-climbing tragedies that involve honed climbers taking a fall during their razor's edge "extreme" endeavors. Sh^t, 100+ times up the NIAD, who ever thinks folks of this caliber spill a foot on easy ground.
It's these types of accidents that shake me when I'm trying to feel super-human. Perhaps that's a good thing.
FWIW, the soul of my condolences goes out to the tribes of these two.
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
It is very possible that no haul bag was involved, and that confirmation bias affected my subsequent observations as the event unfolded. I apologize if my statements were misleading; I was just trying to relay what I saw or perceived to see.
The words of a true human being.
Thank you for being honest, and also making the effort to assist the rest of us in making sense of a senseless tragedy.
The selfish motivation, on this topic, is that nobody wants to die climbing El Capitan. If the best of the best are inconceivably killed on Free Blast, then what hope is there, for the rest of us? We want to know what happened, so that it doesn't happen to us, or to anybody else.
My grandfather was a highly-respected pathologist in Grosse Pointe, Michigan. His role in society was to determine why people died, so that other people would not die in the same manner.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
I can only imagine the sorrow of the kids , wife(s), and immediate family. Hope the deceased had adequate life insurance.
Like Largo, I'm glad my kids never took to climbing.
As Bridwell stated in an article eons ago "The standards will be pushed and slowly raised and those not honed to a fine edge will take the dreaded groundfall". One might add that after a huge accumulation of vertical footage (such as 106 NIADS) a mistake, or objective hazard will eventually arise that leads to catastrophe beyond any mortals control. At that point your fate is in the hands of god.
Condolences to family and freinds.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
There will always be some that push the boundaries. The quest to explore all manner of things this wonderful planet holds is in their DNA and I believe our world is better for them. Many survive their personal challenges, some do not.
Having been married to an adventure man and having four kiddos, there were some very tense times in the beginning. As some years unfolded, thankfully I grew to understand that this person would be "less" if he was restrained by my fears. (I still gave the cautionary speeches and admonishments and did the worry trip, but while he was an extreme venturer, I was less the extreme worrier.)
People married to men or women committed to living on the edge, hopefully, find balance of some sort, enjoy their partner and each day. Really that's a formula for any good relationship.
My best friend died of an illness. I'm glad he enjoyed his life.
Grief is something each one of us have to deal with on this planet. Having Family and Community are a key piece to healing and going on. Life is never the same, but it is possible to create a new path, a good path. Heartfelt Hugs and Love as well as prayers for all the families and friends that are processing their grief and loss today. Let community help you. lynnie
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
Brutus of Wyde was killed in a car crash.
John Bachar would steer his VW bus with his knees while playing a saxophone.
There is no tangible destination, only the experience of being transported.
 anonymous
|
|
cencalclimber
climber
|
|
shouldn't there have been a connection (rope) between the second climber and the third (Kevin prince). the first two guys had to have been at least trailing a second rope, planning on fixing it on top of mammoth. Maybe it just ripped off Tims harness in the fall? Most haul loops are full sstrength..i would expect it to arrest a fall (although it would still hurt).
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
Gulf Breeze
|
|
The line that separates consciousness and never hugging the ones you love again has always been extremely thin.
Death is never a loss, it's a reminder to not go to sleep angry,
cherish the everyday life with loved ones and remember
to share why you loved them in the first place.
Death will always be the last course in this meal, personally I'd like mine quick and succinct, dying in a hospital sucks.
|
|
aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
A lady named Antionette Bosco wrote a book about loss and grieving based upon her own experience. It is called "The Pummled Heart". One of her sons was bipolar and took his own life. That was hard but she felt that she coped fairly well. Then a second son was murdered. It was strange case where the son and his wife had bought a house, and a psychopath who had formerly lived in the house and had been abused there, decided to get revenge on the house by killing them, even though he'd never met them.
The second tragedy was much worse than the first, and then she really snapped. It took her some years to learn to cope with it.
As for climbing accidents, there is a capriciousness about them, where often people who are ordinarily fairly careful, slip up once in awhile.
In the past couple of years, both Hans and Quinn Brett, along with these two were in serious accidents. It seems like all of these people were normally pretty careful, or at least not reckless.
|
|
okie
Trad climber
|
|
Yeah, Johntp, I am trying to figure out why the third man wasn't securely attached to the rest of the party. The trailing rope obviously blew off the second guy's harness. It could have saved the second's life after the lead rope cut. Perhaps it was casually clipped to a gear loop.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
All sources including the very post you quoted are saying a gear loop broke. They are not strong. They were short fixing, and the slack was being carried up on this gear loop. Nobody with a clue is confused here. You guys should delete your posts.
|
|
Garboni
Trad climber
CA
|
|
A gear loop on a climbing harness is not the same as a haul loop.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
Ahh. I mis-read it and thought it was clipped to the haul loop.
Posts deleted as they are irrelevant.
EDIT: but perhaps there is a lesson to be learned here. I have frequently used my haul loop to anchor to the belay anchor and used the belay loop to belay followers. Maybe not such a good idea. The haul loop on the momentum harness I use now is rated at 15 kN; not all haul loops are as strong.
|
|
cencalclimber
climber
|
|
JLP - which source said the trail rope was clipped to the gear loop (and not the haul loop)? Sorry if I missed that detail. Jordans eyewitnes account says nothing about that.
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
Largo said they got hit by a haulbag. we all believe what Largo says, he is climbing God
Climbers are polytheistic. They believe in numerous gods.
It is a wonderful thing for a climber to believe in a god named Largo.
It is a wonderful thing for a climber to believe in a god named Klaus.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
People should read with attention to comprehension while commenting on this grievous loss. Indeed they should. I read that account at least 20x. Jordan is saying the rope severed after Tim fell. Jordan is also saying Jason’s mid fall stop happened before Tim fell.
That article is a mess. I also don’t think Jordan saw much from his position.
The more I process and assemble all of this, the more I think something happened with their pack - like Tim lost control of it and it pulled Jason off - so many scenarios as to exactly how that could have played out - all very possible. The terrain closing in on Mammoth is 5.4ish. Jason may have slipped on his own there - but probably not.
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
hey there say, goatboy smellz...
as to this quote... very nice for all of us to hold on to...
i did leave-out, part, (thought i knew what you meant)
but--
but you are so right-- it is a reminder...
especially this part:
remember to SHARE WHY you loved them, in the first place...
... it's a reminder to not go to sleep angry,
cherish the everyday life with loved ones and remember
to share why you loved them in the first place.
thus, my prayers for the families--
to be strong, and keep sharing beloved memories, for
the children, as they grow...
keep that special love and bond, spiritually,
though, their dads are gone, physically...
love, that love, never dies...
it did not get to fully grow, but-- it will never died...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!