Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 64 of total 64 in this topic |
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - May 25, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
|
This is a reactionary thread and I may regret posting it. I haven't launched a topic in a long time but this one.....well, I do need help to understand what's up.
Just how do we "lose track" of family and/or friends?
So many people dying lately, not a surprise since we all die sooner or later, but read a post tonight where the family of a climber here around the campfire has recently died and not been in touch with family and they have not been in touch with him for many, many years. How does this happen? We are joined to one another. Whether we love and hug or feel bitterness from the past, alienation, hurt, misunderstanding, whatever, there remains a relationship of some sort.
How can we, what makes us, decide to toss people, or even ease people, out of our lives?
Sounds good when James Taylor encourages us to shower the people we love with love. It's easy to love those that are nice to us and care.
Who sings about loving thru? Loving when the relationship needs bridges of time to promote love, healing and many times forgiveness.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
May 25, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
|
I’m out here a thousand miles from my home
Walkin’ a road other men have gone down
I’m seein’ your world of people and things
Your paupers and peasants and princes and kings
Hey, hey, Woody Guthrie, I wrote you a song
’Bout a funny ol’ world that’s a-comin’ along
Seems sick an’ it’s hungry, it’s tired an’ it’s torn
It looks like it’s a-dyin’ an’ it’s hardly been born
Hey, Woody Guthrie, but I know that you know
All the things that I’m a-sayin’ an’ a-many times more
I’m a-singin’ you the song, but I can’t sing enough
’Cause there’s not many men that done the things that you’ve done
Here’s to Cisco an’ Sonny an’ Leadbelly too
An’ to all the good people that traveled with you
Here’s to the hearts and the hands of the men
That come with the dust and are gone with the wind
I’m a-leavin’ tomorrow, but I could leave today
Somewhere down the road someday
The very last thing that I’d want to do
Is to say I’ve been hittin’ some hard travelin’ too
|
|
Zay
climber
Monterey, Ca
|
|
|
May 25, 2018 - 07:48pm PT
|
I find myself horribly guilty of saying, "Tomorrow, maybe I'll call 'em tomorrow..."
:(
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
May 25, 2018 - 07:48pm PT
|
It is difficult to judge a person's decisions when we haven't had to live as that person. Even with full knowledge it is difficult to and perhaps pointless to judge.
Sometimes people feel safer/happier/better choosing whom to define as their family than accepting that which they had no choice about. Sometimes they feel afraid or unsafe or are tired of old patterns, of getting hurt... sometimes they are guilty, ashamed of what they have done or will do... or in some other way their perception may be distorted about who are the people that do and don't care about them, who will come through as family in spite of whatever water flows under the bridge.
Basically, we all have to play the hands we are dealt, and decide for ourselves what is the best way to honor and love the different people in our lives while living the lives we want for ourselves.
Edit: That was a pretty antiseptic response, but I'll make it a bit more personal and give one specific scenario. Sometimes the most loving choice that you can make for the people you care about in your life sows the seeds for estrangement. Both sides can feel hurt in each relationship, but perhaps that hurt is better than the alternative. I spent years living day-to-day in an unhealthy marriage, trying everything I could to make it work. Ultimately I left when I figured out that my kids would be worse off if I stayed with their mother than if I left. The fall-out/vengeance that came in response to that decision led to a few years of misery for me, but it's my kids who have been paying and will continue to pay the bigger price.
I didn't choose to leave my kids, but my ex invested her considerable intellect and emotional manipulative skill and financial resources to enforce her judgment: "you left me so you left the kids too." At times- probably still now too- I've had a difficult time partitioning away the emotional issues I have with the mom from the unwitting children who have been used in the power struggle. Maybe after years of dealing with this stuff, I see echoes of it when it is not even there any more. Neither of my kids has the emotional closeness or trust in me that they would have had in an alternate world where I was not in conflict with their mom. Then again, it could have been a lot worse and by leaving I actually created the possibility to have real relationships with them not completely regulated by my ex. I will always be open to having a close relationship with my kids, but I wouldn't bet much money on how close they will be to me after they are adults and make their own choices. At least that's how it seems now in the midst of the teen years. Maybe they will have more perspective when they are older and figure out what happened. Maybe not. From my selfish perspective, I am saddened and frustrated by that, but from their perspective, I think it is even more sad. But I understand and accept that according to the emotional reality they have lived, not being close to me may seem like the more reasonable and safe choice.
So I just take it day by day and learn how to have less expectations, and who knows a decade or two from now, what their relationship with me will mean to them. Ironically, this process has brought me closer to understanding my dad and his estrangement from me in my childhood, and I am closer to him the last few years, in my 40s, than I ever have been. But I will always be there for my kids, whether or not that seems like an option they want to avail themselves of at whatever stage of life they are in.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
May 25, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
|
Lynne, most of the climbers I know are fairly well connected to their families. However small, you will find a sampling of "all sorts" among the climbing population.
Jon
|
|
bajaandy
climber
Escondido, CA
|
|
|
May 25, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
|
Lynne, you're letting your compassion for humanity show through again! Would any of us be surprised?
But you pose a valid and difficult question. I do not have the answer. What makes some of us drift away, and yet when the planets align and we drift back though another's orbit we're suddenly drawn back in, all time between forgot, and love and laughter and friendships deepen? But family is a tricky proposition: We don't always have the luxury to choose it, for most usually it chooses us.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
May 25, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
|
Time, geographical movement and living in a world that rarely lets us stand still long enough to do it.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
May 25, 2018 - 08:37pm PT
|
Lynnie,
I don't know how someone disconnects with family, but I know that I've never intentionally disconnected with a friend or family member. Yet, I had no idea what was going on with Tom Higgins, for example, until I read about his passing. It certainly wasn't because I wanted to grow apart. Geography and time constraints did that. Now it's too late.
All of this makes me treasure the time I get to spend with the others in my life. The virtual campfire made it easier to do that. We can gripe about social media's imperfections, and it certainly can't match being physically together, but we can use them as tools to be closer, not more remote.
John
|
|
Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
|
|
May 25, 2018 - 10:01pm PT
|
Sometimes it's as simple a fact that some families are just a bunch of random individuals who merely happen to share the same last name.
Once of free age, they scatter to the ends of the earth and none of them have need nor desire to see any of the others.
|
|
ChizzDizzle
Trad climber
Rocklin,CA
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 01:26am PT
|
I choose to not have a relationship with my sister because she is a bad person. And it is not because of drug use or anything like that. She is this alpha yeller picking fights cursing loud obnoxious a$$hole who from an early age I knew I was not going to want to spend a lot of time with. My dad saw this early as well and tried to guilt me into a relationship with her and I have tried but no thanks. She has threatened my wife with physical violence and when her time comes I know I will not shed many tears.
We just had our grandma pass away and I did not see or talk to her once.
Our brother is getting married in September and I doubt my wife will go. Our son is a ring bearer so he and I will go and avoid any contact with her. My brother and his fiancee know about our feelings for each other and have placed us in separate areas of the reception. I would like to go and have a good time but feel I must be on guard and although I am happy for my brother and his fiancee I really do not want to go.
Like the old saying goes you can not choose your family.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 02:48am PT
|
I distanced myself from my family when I got sober back in 1996. It started with not going home for the holidays, out of a real fear I would not be able to not drink. That fear was valid, and now almost 22 years sober, I can see that it's almost certain I would have drank if I hadn't done what I needed to do to save myself. My sober life was well worth the insult and injury my family felt at the time. I could go on about that, but to make it easy on those who can't imagine doing something like that, call me selfish; I'm okay with your inability to understand. (I do interact with them now, but even so, there is that awareness that I distanced myself at one time, and I'll never be completely forgiven for that, and reminded on a regular basis of it).
I've also been more comfortable alone for much of my entire life. It is probably an emotional "defect," according to those who study social behaviors. I would say it was a learned behavior, again one coming from a survival instinct.
Yes, there are plenty of instances in day to day life where my "instincts" have me losing out on the relationships some people look back at in life as best memories with family and friends. Rather than try to figure out "those people," thank your lucky stars glad you don't understand how it can be, but don't assume it's a cavalier uncaring about others.
|
|
CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 03:36am PT
|
Sturgeon’s law: 90% of everything is crap.
Goes for what ya family and friends crank ons about.
Most family and friends are like seatbelts, trying to impose their restrictions on ya movement in some ways. Silent partners are also a lot like seatbelts.
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 04:29am PT
|
hey there, say, john...
this quote, of yours, sadly, does happen so much in these busy, faster, 'more expected' as to 'modern life' stuff... it is good when we can work around
it, yet, when we can't, it is good just to know that love will prevail,
when we DO get those chances...
May 25, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
Time, geographical movement and living in a world that rarely lets us stand still long enough to do it.
hopefully, may we all get more chances, :)
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 05:08am PT
|
911 made me realize that we can be gone at any instant. I have made an effort to not leave bad blood out there. If I have a beef or something that needs dealing with I try to get it done. that does not mean that we have to be best friends or spend time together but I try to do my part to deal with the issue so that we have peace. Unfinished business weighs you down..
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 05:09am PT
|
hey there say, lynne...
hope it helps, if i take this down...
out of respect... in case too much
stuff to read, at an overwhelming time, for someone...
i will send it to you, email...
:)
edit:
i think it was good information, that i shared... just
was not sure, if i did something wrong, here...
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 06:52am PT
|
I think some people are secure enough in themselves to be okay without the social contact...Maybe there's such thing as a Loner gene...? And then there's dysfunctional family dynamics that create barriers...shit happens...I like what tradmanclimbs says...
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 07:33am PT
|
Lynn, obviously you didn't grow up in an abusive or neglectful or exploitative family or you wouldn't be asking this question. Please respect the fact that some of us have had extremely bad experiences with dysfunctional families that we have spent most of our adult lives trying to overcome, often with the help of counselors and analysts. An outsider has no idea what goes on sometimes behind closed doors, so please don't presume. Sometimes the only way to make a life for oneself is to be removed from the individuals who caused the abuse, neglect, or exploitation. Otherwise a person becomes just another lifelong enabler and that does no one any good. There are situations where no amount of love and understanding in the world is going to cure another person's psychological problems or defective character.
|
|
HF
climber
I'm a Norwegian stuck in Joshua Tree
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 09:49am PT
|
eKat,
I have no idea if you know Lynne personally, I do, and in my opinion Lynne wouldn't post anything inappropriate or in poor taste (even if she tried).
Before you posted you opinion, did you consider that Lynne might refer to something (or someone) much closer to home? For the record I do not know for a fact if she is, or if she is referring to the situation of the person(s) that triggered your reaction. Perhaps her post was motivated by thoughts around the topic without any reference to a specific person or persons. It appears that there is a reference to a certain person and that person's family, and she chooses to not name them, however I have no doubt that sadly a large number of people are estranged from their families, for a variety of reasons.
Knowing Lynne, her post is certainly not intended to hurt people that have lost touch with their families, she is asking for help understanding why and how this happens. Of course the topic will be painful to people and their families, especially if they recently lost someone. It is obviously a painful topic for Lynne too.
Is your reply perhaps in bad taste?
Respectfully,
Hilde Fonda
|
|
HF
climber
I'm a Norwegian stuck in Joshua Tree
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 09:58am PT
|
eKat,
Yes she understands, and now she has your opinion, - and mine.
Hilde Fonda
|
|
L
climber
Just livin' the dream on the California coast
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 10:47am PT
|
This is a reactionary thread and I may regret posting it.
How can we, what makes us, decide to toss people, or even ease people, out of our lives?
Lynne--you are one of the most loving, forgiving and all around amazing people the Taco has ever produced. I mean that with all my heart.
You're also one of the luckiest...as it sounds like you were raised in a supportive family that gave you a good foundation for your experience of life.
Some of us were not that lucky.
Some of us had violent, alcoholic parents.
Some of us had physically abusive step-parents.
Some of us had emotionally abusive bi-polar siblings.
Some of us experienced a family tragedy so catastrophic, it ripped the fabric of our nuclear relationships beyond repair.
I don't believe anyone intentionally "tosses" people out of their lives...I think many people are just trying to survive the disastrous imprinting of their childhood, and distancing themselves from the source of their misery is the only way they know.
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 11:00am PT
|
Lynne,
We met and shared a beer a few years ago at Todd's.
We connected immediately and talked about Dan and loss and rebirth.
I know you would never write anything that would intentionally harm someone and I know this was not your intention with this thread.
Often times, memorials or other farewells bring one's own perspective to light.
Your subject really hits home as I have a large family and am estranged with more than one of the members.
Supertopo is a great place to be friends and look to others for advice but their is much bitterness here as well.
Forgiveness is not always the answer but, sometimes asking the question is.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2018 - 11:16am PT
|
I so appreciate all of your responses.
e-Kat, I've been on the Taco for 10 years now and I don't know (the 2 months phrase) who the people you are referring to. I mean, I may know them, but not their situation.
Jan, I hope you know how much I respect you. I apologize for the pain I caused.
This thread was not in any, any way meaning to be judgmental. Again, I apologize if that's how it was perceived. Rather, things happen in our lives that need to be processed and addressed. Even if the addressing is walking away for awhile.
I don't come even close to knowing all the answers to troubling situations life brings. That's why I asked the question. I realized relationship questions can be painful, but for me, I need to sort them out and the campfire has helped me do this in the past.
I need to read all the responses once again before I do anything. There is good wisdom to think upon and viewpoints that open up things to consider.
One thing I do know from my own life, the path is a winding one,traversing many years. Who knows what will happen? For me nothing is set in stone until life ends.
|
|
SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 11:16am PT
|
Lynne I always think of you as the “conscience” of the Forum. Loving, giving, caring, nonjudgmental ... wanting the best for everyone, accepting everyone as they are.
Assuming positive intent on your part I think your thoughts and questions open up dynamics of relationships that are challenging and difficult and have many paths to “what they are or what they became”.
I think it is possible to love deeply and completely yet not able to sustain a relationship, the reasons are many, and often complex...many have been mentioned already. Our family is the one group of people that we had no choice to be born into. For most families they navigate the myriad of personalities that appear somewhere on the “functional” spectrum. Some see each other frequently, others manage successful familial ties by lots of time and distance apart. Generally there is some thread, no matter how thin or fine it’s stretched that family doesn’t fall off the radar.
However there are some families that do lose track of family members and as sad as it may seem looking in, for some it is the only way to maintain self preservation. We can’t fault someone for doing what they need to do for maintaining self health. It could be easy to say “someone is just being selfish and cutting off their nose to spite their face”. But really, we can never know, we never had to walk in their shoes.
I saw it in my own family with an aunt and my cousin. It was not about abuse but politics. My cousin’s life in her 20s was absorbed by being Anti war (Vietnam) activist. Her family was career military. The depth of those two beliefs was so deep they could not be reconciled. Even to the point of my cousin becoming an expat, that once she left America she never returned. My aunt was torn by it, I don’t believe my cousin had many, if any, regrets. The last we knew she lives in Australia and has grown children.
It did seem odd, but became normal, that one of the cousins we all grew up with, and went to family reunions with, basically has been missing these last 40 years.
Susan
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2018 - 11:44am PT
|
When my Dad was 3 he had two older sisters and a younger brother. His Mom went to the hospital to have the 5th child. She died in childbirth and his younger brother died at the same time when the babysitter accidentally gave him an overdose of laudanum.
His Dad gathered up the 3 siblings to go for a drive. The drive ended at an orphanage with the promise of coming back in a few days to pick them up. He never returned.
My Dad was adopted by an older, childless couple. His adopted Father worked in the stockyards and was a meatpacker. Dad had to collect him from bars.
His middle sister was fortunate and was adopted by a well to do Dr. and wife.
His oldest sister did not fare so well.
Life wound up and down and all around and when we moved to California thru a miracle (I call it) my Dad met someone and was then able to track down after time his two sisters. My Dad's Dad spent time in prison. He came back into my Dad's life right before he died.
We don't know the end til the end.
Life............Choices
Right now I am challenged, which is why all your input, and I mean all, is important to me. I am not challenged about the above story. I just recalled it when Susan shared hers. I learn much from others stories.
And Susan, kindred spirit, I chuckle. I could never be a conscience, I struggle too much to figure life out.
e-kat, I did miss that. I'm sorry. I would never deliberately do anything to cause pain. Hugs.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 11:59am PT
|
Lynne, I know your intentions are only good and I have tremendous respect for you too. I think you just didn't realize what some of us have been through or the depth of feeling this thread would provoke. I have accordingly removed a couple of the more judgmental comments from my thread.
I think the problem is that as outsiders to a family, we never really know if a person is just being selfish or apathetic or truly escaping a bad situation. Even if we were to interview all the people involved, we might still not know anything beyond the fact that everyone interpreted the situation differently. Some people are more sensitive than others.
Time and the death of certain family members sometimes helps and sometimes the other family members can reconstruct a relationship. In my experience, this still doesn't erase the lack of trust based on what went on before. An uneasy truce is maintained, but a warm intimate relationship will never be reclaimed. It's a fact of life that some people have better family karma than others and it's best to just pick up the pieces and carry on.
|
|
thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
|
Forty years passed without a word between my mother and her father. By the time dementia had taken him beyond the realm of care providable by his immediately proximal family, the inhuman, physically violent stepmother had passed away. My mother was able to care for her dear old man in comfort and dignity theough to his final day, in her home, to heal her wounded heart with the salve of giving to another in their time of utmost need. Pretty damn perfect if you ask me.
Now for the rest of us mere humans, I'm not sure how applicable this really is, other than a feel-good, an aspirational example.
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
|
People change, usually for the worse.
This has not been what I have experienced in my 57 years.
Change is constant in a healthy life. Change is the vibrancy of a growing soul.
Change brings knowledge and hope.
Change is good.
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
|
How can we, what makes us, decide to toss people, or even ease people, out of our lives?
Sounds good when James Taylor encourages us to shower the people we love with love. It's easy to love those that are nice to us and care.
Who sings about loving thru?
This is leaving out so many aspect of life. The formulation can be read as self-referential, judgmental and moralistic.
What if loving thru at times means letting go? What about love as accepting dear ones going their own way, staying away?
There's times when self-love and love of one's own judgments are taken for true love. There's times when distance to oneself is needed to distinguish between love and self-love.
There's a difference between passive reactive feelings ruling the mind and the choice of active feelings and inquiry if one really wants to understand...
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
|
And you know Hilde, if Robert Fonda were here (what a wonderful mentor) he would look at me, laugh at me, and set me straight. I treasure the time we took walks and I asked him all sorts of questions.
My favorite answer from him....."sell them all to the slave traders". :)
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 05:28pm PT
|
I've had to place boundaries on my father. It took me until going through extensive rehab and therapy for alcoholism to come to grips with his role in that. He is a good, loving father but his overbearing, self-righteous mentality caused all of his children to have problems with self esteem and self confidence. I chose alcohol to deal with it.
I don't blame him, his father died when he was two and was raised by his mother into adulthood, so he had no reference base.
edit: Lynne- my father had more good qualities than the above and is not entirely to blame for my problem. All his children earned bachelors through doctorate degrees and have been successful in their fields partially due to the above qualities I put in a negative connotation.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
|
When I read your story, johntp, I resonated with your words, your life and your authenticity with some tears. What came to my minds eye was looking at your life through a stained glass window with all sorts of beautiful colors as the sun shines thru it. When the clouds come the stained glass is still there, still the same.......
|
|
Trump
climber
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 05:57pm PT
|
We make this sh#t up. Family, like most of our tribal bullsh#t, is exactly that - tribalism. Our preference for our own family is as foundational to tribalism as it gets.
The reason we’re so hung up on family is because it’s in our genes. 4 billion years of becoming humans means that we think we should remained connected to our family and friends (because that’s what has worked to our best advantage). Or if you prefer to believe it, maybe it’s cause we’re just groovy righteous beings that way.
Yea, my adoptive family are mostly not genetically related to me. In a way I chose my adopted children more than I chose my biological child. Does that matter to me? Not that I can tell.
But would I care as much about my daughter if she was just some black girl living in poverty somewhere? Should I? I’m not as attached to some random black girl living in poverty as I am to my daughter. And is that a good thing? We should feel bad about not being as attached to our families as we “should” be - not being inclined to work harder towards our family’s advantage than we do?
Me, I think not, but I also observe that (unfortunately), yes, we humans do care more about our ‘tribe’ than about other people. This social/emotional/tribal human identity bullshit has some staying power.
And it just seems to be getting worse. If you’re in the Trump supporter tribe, you believe whatever nonsense he spews, and you forgive him his irrighteous transgressions of values that you used to think defined you. And if you’re in the opposite camp, your brain gets warped in the opposite direction. We’ve been slowly trying to overcome this tribal bullsh#t, but there are still lots of people who prefer their (eg white) tribe.
My best sense of it is be you, for the reasons that you be you. But if you want to be honest about those reasons, don’t sugarcoat our tribal bullshit in our righteous favor. And while I would hope these ideas don’t have less value to you because they’re not coming from family and friends, I expect, like the rest of us, that they do have less value, and that you suffer from the same social/emotional/tribal belief warping thinking processes that the rest of us do.
Best to you! Regardless.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
|
Please, this is absolutely not a political thread.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
|
This is an interesting and important subject, and I hope you won't delete the whole thread.
On that latter subject: Yes, this thread might be unpleasant for some. But if we deleted every thread that was unpleasant for somebody... Think about it... Avalanche safety? No way, my friend died in an avalanche. Rappel techniques? No way, my sister died in a rapelling accident. And on and on and on. There can be few subjects that aren't abhorrent to someone, and we can't ban everything and everybody.
But back to the subject of family... There can be other reasons than nastiness and abuse to separate oneself from one's family. I was blessed with parents who raised me with love and respect, and although I ended up far from them on the map, I "went home" regularly and stayed close as long as they were alive.
But, although I loved them deeply, and they me, I never felt any blood connection. I was so different from them, and from everyone else in the extended family, that I always felt as if, as a baby, I'd landed from another planet and they'd found me and adopted me. I look so much like them physically that I know I really was their child, but the connection was always a deep love and respect, not blood.
While they were still alive, I'd see the rest of my family when I visited them, but, for me, there was no sense of family. Nice people, but not my people. And, since my father died, I haven't seen any of them, nor felt any desire to.
I'm not even sure I understand "family" in the way it's generally assumed people do. The closest thing I have felt to "family" is the climbing community. There might not have been a place for me in the family or the community of my birth, but I found a place in the extended family of climbing.
|
|
Trump
climber
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 06:41pm PT
|
Did you think my post was politics? One little example of how what I’m saying gets manifested in wider human society, and all you saw was politics? You asked for help, and I shared what I could, from my personal life and experience and my individual perspective, on exactly the topic you asked for help on, but you see it and react the way you do, for the reasons that you do. If you don’t like what I’m saying, my best help for you is to at least be honest with yourself about why you don’t like it. I might have a different experience of and perspective on family and our human tribalism than you’re used to hearing. That tribal family based identity bullshit that we want to be so proud of, and to benefit from, might have a side to it that we prefer not to see, a side like racism and sexism and even political tribalism. Yea I don’t like that about us either. Best to you, regardless.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
|
To add to what ghost said, I have heard that long lost children who find biological family have a tearful happy reunion for the cameras, but a lot of them have very little connection after that, especially if they have no memory of the family.
I have a friend who recently had to put his father in a care facility and sell the family home. Him and his brother went about packing up the house and dealing with "the stuff" which included pictures. He found his parents wedding picture and it was dated a year after he was born. He wondered allowed, WTF? His brother told him that "dad" was not his biological parent. Really did not affect his view of his parents. Plenty of love and caring, and that is what family is about.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 07:14pm PT
|
Thanks Ghost.
The past 10 years has similarity in a small way with what you just described. A scrambled egg comes to mind. I went from a strong Mom to a strong husband with pretty much no time lapse in between. When husband, father died that's when the scrambled egg phase began.
I'm not sure what happened, one of these days I'll ask. But my best guess is that a huge gap appeared in our family with nothing immediate to fill it. Everyone did their best, but everyone was hurting and trying to find their own answers, their own way.
I needed input, a lot of support and this campfire took time to give it. Many spoke to me from their own loss of friends, family and broken places in their own lives.
Crazy, but when I went to the Bridwell Memorial I felt a real sense of family, posse as they say.
After the Memorial I went to Lee Vining and stayed with a friend. How I met this person......driving from Mary Lake after the Bachar Memorial I saw 2 guys and a gal with huge back packs hitching. I NEVER pick up hitch hikers. But I felt strongly I should pick them up (that crazy jesus thing in my life)
Several years later I got a job at Tioga Pass Resort and went to the Mobile for Thursday night music. A young man came up to me. He was one of those I picked up and somehow recognized me. He lives near Mono Lake and we have been fast friends ever since. ( A climber, of course)
You're right Ghost, the climbing community has filled a "family" spot for many.
And T. sorry, I just didn't understand what you were saying.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
|
And T. sorry, I just didn't understand what you were saying.
Lynne- I don't get his drift either other than he seems to be saying having a sense of "family" is logically unwarranted.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
|
|
|
May 26, 2018 - 11:42pm PT
|
The positive aspect of having a dysfunctional family that a person distances themselves from is that you look elsewhere for your support and become much more open to other people in the world who are not of your tribe. That has definitely been beneficial to my profession of anthropology. Conversely I think I probably became an anthropologist in part, because I always felt I was an outside observer to my own family. I have found people all over the world however, who have treated me like I was one of their own. Unfortunately, many people coming from dysfunctional families are never able to experience that.
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
May 27, 2018 - 01:21am PT
|
hey there, say, jan... yes, that is so true...
that is why friendships are so important, they are the balm, that
helps, when there is no where else to go...
hmmm, it seems that this is helping a lot of folks...
i might put back part of my post...
not just for lynne, (was going to email it, to her) ...
but, who knows, someone may need to read some of these thoughts, someday,
if they feel alone... :(
reach out, stay joined to friends, and grow into who you hope to be...
if you ever need to 'see the old trail again' of family, etc,
you will know... and if, you should not, you will know, too...
just a note, for anyone, for the future, :)
|
|
i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
|
|
|
May 27, 2018 - 01:48am PT
|
nutagain!, I don't know enough about your situation but as a divorced dad with three daughters I do know that all three of them became estranged (not entirely) from their mom during their teen years and ended up living exclusively with me until they finished high school (one is almost done).
They are all now very close with their mom again, even though she is still just as crazy. Ironically, she just posted this on Facebook; "By the time you realize your mother was right, you have a daughter who thinks you're wrong".
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
May 27, 2018 - 03:14am PT
|
...I don't get his drift either other than ...
Interesting; I completely understood it. I think the key lay in reading the words and then paying attention to the space between them.
Maybe that's too cryptic for some. Can't help you there.
And Lynne - When you made your OP, I read it as that you were a person who enjoyed a very close relationship with your family and friends, and did not understand how others could not also realize the joy of that.
In one of your recent posts, (it seems to me that)you write about how you experienced a drifting apart within your own family.
So - are you trying to come to some understanding within your own personal experience of the distancing some members of your family have chosen? Because that is an entirely different scene than the one which I felt from your first post(which, as I said, I felt was coming from a viewpoint of someone who knew the joy of close bonds and was befuddled by those who do not).
If the former, than please do tell us of your own feelings as it pertains to your own situation. That will probably help you process what you are feeling better than reading the posts of others, in my opinion. The other posts will just serve as cues within yourself; a mirror. Keep your eye on the girl in the mirror, and tell us what it is you are feeling, and know that who you are writing to is actually yourself.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
May 27, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
|
Interesting; I completely understood it. I think the key lay in reading the words and then paying attention to the space between them.
Maybe that's too cryptic for some. Can't help you there.
Care to enlighten us less agile readers?
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
May 27, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
|
As I said, "can't help you there."
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
|
May 27, 2018 - 07:48pm PT
|
Happygirl, I met you a couple of times. Both times you seemed aloof and distant, completely wrapped up in some current campground drama.
When I met Lynne she came across as genuine and caring.
It may be hard for you to relate to someone like this.
|
|
SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
|
|
|
May 27, 2018 - 09:08pm PT
|
^^^^. We seem to know two completely different Happiegirrrl.
Susan.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
May 28, 2018 - 11:38am PT
|
I agree with Susan. Besides I don't think we should compare humans. We all have our good points and our flaws. I couldn't create a piece of jewelry or a chalk bag to save my life among so many other things Happiegrlll2 is gifted at.
I'm very sad the last poster deleted their post. It was meaningful and encouraging on so many levels and so to the point. A great example to all that if you choose life, good things can happen. "Not Quitting is Winning." If you read this, thanks poster!
|
|
ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
|
|
|
May 28, 2018 - 12:11pm PT
|
Reposted for you.
I was crying as I typed it, and I have a habit of letting my emotions get the best of me.
I’m a guy, we are supposed to be tough...
Sometimes we respond poorly, in our lack of wisdom.
For me, it was a retreat into the darkness, a self imposed exile to punish myself for being human and not being who I wanted to be. Obsessive and idealistic but faced with the realities of mediocrity and lack of discipline, I slithered off to die alone.
Couldn’t even do that right...
15 years went by, spiraling into the pit.
Then one day you find yourself holding the means to end it all, staring down the tube of oblivion, longing for a release from the pain of existence. It is at that moment when one must choose to either end the pain, or end the existence. One choice is easy, and the other quite hard, for the path is unknown and could lead to more pain.
Apparently, I like suffering.
So I cut the ties to my current pains and went off in search of new ones.
Along that journey, I hid from my friends and families. Telling myself I did it for their benefit, to not burden them with my ennui. I thought no one cared.
I was wrong.
For the last two years I have been climbing back out of that pit. Sending timid feelers out to see if I got any responses. I expected very little.
I was shocked by what happened next.
The best I was hoping for was a hand back into the lifeboat, what I got was a Fulton skyhook evac from my personal hell.
Some members of this forum saved my life, and have given me back my will to live.
Our friends are the most precious thing in this existence, as we help each other to navigate through uncertain passages.
When we retreat from them, we rob not only ourselves, but them as well.
Family is a different matter, we never chose them as our companions, we are stuck with the luck of the draw on that front.
|
|
H
Mountain climber
there and back again
|
|
|
May 28, 2018 - 12:48pm PT
|
Thought provoking post Lynne. I do not know who you refer but it makes me reflect a great deal about who I am in relationship to others. I don't think any of us have had a perfect past. That our personal history shapes who we are from the very beginning.
My sister and I are estranged. Its my doing. I am cordial but since my mothers passing and her behavior around it I just don't want to be around her. It actually is a drag because my disregard for her or anyone actually hurts me. I know I will make an attempt to tell her how I feel about that and some other issues I have with her. But it is a process and I am not ready.
I too have been estranged.
I think the best anyone can do around this is to take care of themselves and allow others the same courtesy whatever process that takes. People can be hurtful with their words and actions. Retaliation doesn't make it right or better. I think we all forgive and heal in our own way.
People can be judgmental around these things. But unless your a saint.......I am not sure the story is ever clear on either side of the fence. In my case its probably best not to build fences in the first place.
Lynne it was great to see you at the Bridwell memorial. I appreciate you sharing with me what is happening with you and your family. Family; biologically, created or extended have an effect on us. There is a lot of things I could have handled better in this life. Its my cross to bear however. I hope that I will have as much grace as you do in handling adversity.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
|
May 28, 2018 - 01:20pm PT
|
Pud, If I knew who you were, I might be able to understand the aloofness you refer to, but I will say this - If I am interacting with a person or persons who are acting in a way I find unattractive, I absolutely raise a barrier. I wouldn't call it aloofness; but more an emotional backstep in certain situations, allowing me to better keep an eye on what is happening.
If they are aggressive, I will step right up to it and may even raise the ante. Some men are uncomfortable with women who aren't going to defer to them. Perhaps that is what you experienced.
Something makes me think our "meeting" might be when a man came to the Pit on a bicycle, looking for Phil. In that case, it is absolutely true I wasn't rolling out the hospitality rug. We'd had people stealing things, and I didn't know that man, and I wasn't about to point him in the direction of Phil's personal belongings or give an indication as to where he might be found. I DID, if I remember correctly, offer to take a message to be relayed to Phil, if the person desired. For what it's worth, the person then took a pretty obnoxious attitude with me, a sort of "don't you know who I am/I've been climbing/local here since forever" kind of thing. Why would I want to be friendly with someone like that?
If that was you - I wonder if you have the balls right now to admit it.
The only other person from the Pit that comes to mind is the one who was passed out in a car with the hatch up, and his ass showing out of pants dropped down to his thighs. I guess it must have been hot and he did that to cool off.... I guess.
I happened to show up and they guys at the pit were wondering how to get rid of what they thought was a crashed tweeker, and I said "I'll show you how to deal with it, and walked over to the car, woke the guy up and told him to get lost. The man didn't take kindly to a chick telling him to cover his bare ass and leave.
If that was you, I sure don't expect you to say so, but if it was...well then, you just go right ahead and consider me to be aloof and jacked up on dealing with the dramas that happened pretty regularly at the Pit.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
May 28, 2018 - 02:44pm PT
|
I had friend from college through age 48. We lived in different cities and visited each other frequently. It wasn't unusual for us to have hour long phone calls several times a month. One day out of the blue I get a letter saying his therapist told him he needed to place boundaries on me, not saying the reason or anything else. Try as I would whether by voice mail or email, he never responded to me again. WTF?
|
|
L
climber
Just livin' the dream on the California coast
|
|
|
May 28, 2018 - 02:54pm PT
|
ECF-Some members of this forum saved my life, and have given me back my will to live.
That story just made my day.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
May 28, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
|
ECF, thanks so very much for reposting. One of the best I have read in all my years on ST. I may be in Ouray this summer. Maybe we grab an ice tea or beer.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
May 28, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
|
Just watched the musical "Newsies" it has flavors of what this topic is about.
|
|
Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
|
|
|
May 28, 2018 - 11:11pm PT
|
Though urged to socialize more often by friends and family, some prefer to keep to themselves. I limit getting together with friends and family to a minimum. It’s not so much that I don’t like other people, it’s just that I prefer keeping my own company. Somehow there’s plenty of room in this head of mine to never be bored nor does a day go by that I wish weren’t four hours longer.
Lately more often the than not I’ve found some satisfaction in the decision to not respond to comments online that used to elicit some kind of knee jerk response. But the platitudes live and let live or live and let die come to mind when reading the opinions and stories told on this thread. I can absolutely respect a person’s decision to be an island unto themselves. It doesn’t alway mean they aren’t giving or contributing to the world in other ways
Then there’s the fact that some of us have difficulty putting opinions and feelings into words in such a way that isn’t offensive to others or doesn’t come off as sanctimonious. I have a very close friend who is an expert at placing his foot squarely in his mouth at social gatherings. This person always inadvertently insults someone every time. I’m not talking about myself, of course.
|
|
ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
|
|
|
May 29, 2018 - 06:22am PT
|
Lynne, I would be honored to buy you a beer if you come to Ouray. The aspens turn in early September, and the hoards of Jeep enthusiasts have abated somewhat. Perhaps you could instigate a ST gathering of locals, you have the social clout that I do not to pull some people out to the local brewpub. (Red Mountain has better food...)
I rent an apartment in Ouray, but have a large house between Ridgway and Montrose that could host a fiesta del Taco...
-Christian George
Bushman, I built a Floydian “Wall” around myself, with bricks of disappointment, fear, and self-doubt. It was a comfortable little courtyard of self pity and piety, isolated from this sea of tumult of interaction.
One day you realize, you are the only on laughing at your jokes.
Introspection is a tool, not an ends.
I prefer solo adventures to test my limits, but they are never the fodder of my best stories. It is with friends that the funny and surprising memories are made.
When I woke up the morning after Bridwell’s memorial, my abs ached from laughing so hard the night before, from telling and hearing of such memories.
We aren’t dead yet, there is time to make more.
|
|
SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
|
|
|
May 29, 2018 - 06:42am PT
|
Lynne, if you’re going to be in Ouray give a shout out. Moab isn’t that far away and I love camping in Ridgeway to get away from Moab heat. It’s also a sailing year for me but I’m hopeful that we would still find time to connect....and actually sit down and converse and not just end up with a few hugs and “howdies” that seems to have been happening over the past couple years.
I love following your adventures of heart, mind and body. I always think of you as on a road trip of the soul.
See you soon....hopefully before Facelift!
Susan
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
May 29, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
|
ECF and SC seagoat, you have made my day. There is nothing I look forward to more than a fiesta! I plan on being in the area most of August. Start looking at your calendars, please. :)
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
|
May 29, 2018 - 03:47pm PT
|
I've never visited the pit.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
May 29, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
|
pud, who used to say......"OK, nothing much to see here, move along, move along.?" :) Except when Phil Bircheff was sculpting there, then WOW!
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
|
May 29, 2018 - 08:24pm PT
|
I don't know but, it sounds like a Blitzo quote...
|
|
ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
|
|
|
May 29, 2018 - 10:50pm PT
|
Yes Kath, I was El Cap Fool. (The fool of Tarot follows his heart, not his head)
I make electric guitars, and met you when Mark was soloing Tribal Rite.
You were missed at the memorial.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2018 - 03:33pm PT
|
BITD, I used to get scolded on the Taco for thread drift and rightly so. But at times it's good to drift, imho.
So with fiesta's on the calendar, and getting back to the topic, this cool poem by Emily Dickinson walked into my day. Hope....you enjoy....Hope.
"Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all,
And sweetest in the gale is heard;
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little bird
That kept so many warm.
I've heard it in the chillest land,
and on the strangest sea;
Yet, never, in extremity,
It asked a crumb from me.
I enjoy some of the old poets and writers. They really know and make use of the English language.
My spin on this poem and the topic here is that there is always hope if we keep our hearts and minds open. (Well I would actually pray too, but I understand that's not part of some people's game plan and no problem there.)
But like I said earlier we don't know where our winding life path leads. It just might lead to recognizing the existence of someone whose life has caused tremendous pain; or perhaps a small measure of reconciliation, forgiveness. Or perhaps just acknowledging that we agree to disagree, allowing us to give the occasional smile or thumbs up, or once in a while tolerate a gathering for the next generation. (Believe it or not they need us.)
Or Not.
Who knows, but for those that want it, there is always Hope.
|
|
nah000
climber
now/here
|
|
|
May 31, 2018 - 12:51am PT
|
this has been a [mostly] really beautiful thread...
thanks all [especially to the o.p. LL].
Just how do we "lose track" of family and-or friends?
my experience tells me we don't "lose track" so much as we still carry people in our hearts that we must respect are on different paths.
even if it is we/i who are/am on the different path...
love... all.
until we meet again... :)
|
|
| Messages 1 - 64 of total 64 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!