Discussion Topic |
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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May 22, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
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This sucks.
I dislike those cables.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 23, 2018 - 06:28am PT
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I've only been down them, and they spooked me. I backed down the steep parts with a haul bag on and thought: "They let tourons do this? Yikes." Angels' Landing in Zion gave me the same feeling. Whoa. But I'm glad these trails exist. It's good to go out and risk your neck, and non-climbers enjoy it, too. So what was this bloke doing out there in t-storm activity? Darwin at work. RIP, brother.
BAd
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Damn this looks high
Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
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May 23, 2018 - 07:00am PT
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I’ve been up the cables once with my son and down them 12 times. The only thing that surprises me is that somebody doesn’t die every single day. Sad news but you can’t be up there in a thunderstorm!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 23, 2018 - 07:03am PT
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Yeah, the cables always seemed like an incredibly bad idea in general.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 23, 2018 - 07:14am PT
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Worse than an LA freeway on a Friday afternoon - half the people are nice, half are stoopid,
and the other half are jerks.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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May 23, 2018 - 08:05am PT
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So what was this bloke doing out there in t-storm activity? Darwin at work. RIP, brother.
wondered about that myself. maybe it's a "once in a lifetime deal", and he's got to get it done.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2018 - 08:23am PT
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I have only been up the cables once, 25 years ago, cables were on the ground, posts removed as it was late in the season. nobody else on it so it did not seem like a big deal, we had climbing shoes and basically batmanned up.
I am going to hike Angels Landing in two weeks with my 15 yo son, apparently it has killed quite a few people. Not telling his mom about it till we are done.
Adding more cross-boards on half dome would be expensive as two more cables would have to be added, as it is the crossboards are anchored by the posts, about ten feet apart.
20 deaths on half dome, includes lightning strikes and presumably climbers, only 7 deaths on Angels Landing, so it is three times safer?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 23, 2018 - 08:29am PT
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Adding crossboards wouldn’t achieve a thing other than encouraging more crankloons.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2018 - 09:08am PT
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The news report is sparse on facts as usual. It says he was up there T-storm activity but doesn't say that's what killed him. Plus if it was some electrical event, wouldn't there be more bodies? Like someone mentioned above, I bet he was outside the cables (which, BTW, is way less polished).
Nevertheless, my condolences to his family and friends.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Denver CO
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May 23, 2018 - 09:19am PT
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One time I was going down the cables after soloing snake dike, it was a massive traffic jam so I walked down next to the cables on the outside, freaking out hundreds of people standing in line. You could chop the cables and climbers could still easily use it as a descent route.
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CragRat 4x4
Big Wall climber
Simi Valley Ca
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May 23, 2018 - 09:37am PT
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Having only gone down the cables (wrapping a post and Rappel the outside), I think if I ever go up ... a harness and lobster claws will be used.
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up2top
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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May 23, 2018 - 09:54am PT
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I went up last year under party cloudy skies and got out of there when rain clouds began to gather. Made it down just as the first drops of rain began to fall. And then the swarm started. Everyone was trying to get down the cables at the same time. Total sh#t-show. I'm stunned more people haven't died descending the cables when it's wet.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 23, 2018 - 10:10am PT
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The cables are the adventure of a lifetime for many people. It's the best day hike in the world IMO. I'm glad so many people get to experience something similar to what rock climbers do, that doesn't take hundreds of dollars worth of gear and months if not years of experience.
The biggest problem is the rock is super polished from years of traffic. Add in some rain and there's significant risk. The cross boards are too far apart to step from one to another so most people must step on polished rock. Additional cross boards would help, but drawbacks are mentioned up thread.
When I need to pass someone I go on the outside of the cables and the amount of friction is hugely different.
Like Angels Landing there is risk. But as long as people are aware of the risk they should have the right to choose if they want to do it, just like rock climbing.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 23, 2018 - 10:28am PT
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I think more people have been swept down a waterfall, just a few miles earlier on the same trail. What does one do to prevent someone from being swept down a waterfall? Nothing, it was probably for the best. Our planet is overpopulated. There should be more danger, not less.
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Trump
climber
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May 23, 2018 - 10:30am PT
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Shoot sorry to hear.
Angels Landing seemed way different to me. Not nearly the amount of time/distance in a must-not-fall situation with no escape as on half dome.
Having been up the half dome cables a bunch of times, still, sometimes it seems uber-sketchy, sometimes childishly trivial, depending on how my brain is working that day.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 23, 2018 - 10:47am PT
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 23, 2018 - 10:56am PT
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Great shot, Don! Love the smartass kid.
BAd
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2018 - 11:39am PT
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Thanks for breaking the numbers down Del, makes it look like the cables really are not dangerous unless it is wet.
Having only gone down the cables (wrapping a post and Rappel the outside)
I would not want to risk a rap, those posts are not anchored and are in shallow holes held in by the weight of the cable.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 23, 2018 - 11:57am PT
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they really should be upgraded but I think that would be admitting to negligence
Probably not. Assuming Federal Rules of Evidence apply:
Rule 407. Subsequent Remedial Measures
When measures are taken that would have made an earlier injury or harm less likely to occur, evidence of the subsequent measures is not admissible to prove:
negligence;
culpable conduct;
a defect in a product or its design; or
a need for a warning or instruction. . . .
But clever lawyers can sometimes finagle around even seemingly clear rules, and they may be assisted by partisan judges who can also do some finagling to help out the ol' plaintiffs' lawyers, criminal defendants, and their ilk.
(I suppose, to be fair, much less rarely you'll get a judge on the other side of things, who plays a little fast and loose with the law. But the conservatives generally advocate for "judicial restraint" and things like the "plain meaning rule" where judges are supposed to apply more-or-less clear rules instead of thinking of how they can get around them to engineer the outcome they want.)
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2018 - 12:10pm PT
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Blabby, can you cite a case where the government has been held liable for not making nature safer? in fact even in the Glacier Apron case where a NPS water leak likely hastened rockfall, there was no liability. I think that was decided by a judge on a summary judgment motion.
If the bias that you claim is the norm then there should be lots of cases out there. post'em up.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 23, 2018 - 12:34pm PT
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Blabby, can you cite a case where the government has been held liable for not making nature safer? in fact even in the Glacier Apron case where a NPS water leak likely hastened rockfall, there was no liability. I think that was decided by a judge on a summary judgment motion.
Whoa!
My post was primarily intended to refute the contention of another poster that improving the state of the affairs would be used against the government to show negligence. I briefly explained the concept of "subsequent remedial measures" NOT being able to be used that way to correct a misunderstanding on the part of the poster.
And the careful part of me that knows "there's an exception to every rule" merely noted that we have lots of liberal judges who in general disregard the "plain meaning" of rules and laws to engineer an outcome they would prefer. I would think someone subject to the tyranny of the "Ninth Circus" would surely agree with that!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 23, 2018 - 12:35pm PT
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So what was this bloke doing out there in t-storm activity? Darwin at work. RIP, brother.
wondered about that myself. maybe it's a "once in a lifetime deal", and he's got to get it done.
Like most climbers, I've been down the cables more than I've been up them, but the trip up the cables was the highlight of my young life in 1962, and doubtless represents an ultimate adventure to many tourists.
Given that, I'm surprised there aren't more people trying to head up in a thunderstorm after the permit system came into place. We always used to say that the mountain will be there tomorrow. With permits becoming scarce, many tourists can't say that about their hike to the top.
My preferred solution is to build a parallel cable network and scrap the permits. Go up on the right-hand side (facing to top) and go down on the left-hand side. It won't do anything about the crowds, but it may make their journey a bit safer.
John
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klaus
Ice climber
6th and Mission
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May 23, 2018 - 12:42pm PT
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natural selection
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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May 23, 2018 - 12:50pm PT
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I have only ever gone down them. First time, after Snakedike, I left my climbing shoes on and walked down on the outside but hanging on to the cable. The friction was way better and seemed reasonably mellow.
The second time was after doing the regular route in a very long day. I was exhausted and stayed clipped into the cable by leapfrogging two slings.
they really should be upgraded but I think that would be admitting to negligence
The number of deaths has been surprisingly low in my opinion. The cables are high enough to count as wilderness so I thought that was why the park service could no longer upgrade them and there would be too many howls if they tried to completely remove them.
I do wish they could add a second cable route, so that there would be separate lanes going up and down.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 23, 2018 - 01:10pm PT
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Or a slip and slide for the way down.
When the permit process first went in place I was kinda bummed, no last minute trips to possibly take friends up there and just more regulation. But now I'm convinced it was the right thing to do. Seeing all the photos of crowds on the cables is scary when thinking about a lightning storm moving in. I'd hunker down in the cave instead of wait in a traffic jam on the metal cables.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2018 - 01:27pm PT
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And the careful part of me that knows "there's an exception to every rule" merely noted that we have lots of liberal judges who in general disregard the "plain meaning" of rules and laws to engineer an outcome they would prefer. I would think someone subject to the tyranny of the "Ninth Circus" would surely agree with that! Ah, the fake lawyer speaks. The Ninth Circuit does not deviate from the law anymore than the 7th Circuit or (whom I'm sure is your hero, Neil Gorsuch). This is typical Fox News bullsh#t. The fact that you don't agree with the decision does not mean that the court has an alternate agenda.
Sorry for the thread drift...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2018 - 02:12pm PT
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I'd hunker down in the cave instead of wait in a traffic jam on the metal cables.
You might be safer in the scrum
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-07-29/local/me-5124_1_rock-climbers
YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK — Two rock climbers were killed when they were struck by lightning atop famed Half Dome here, park officials said Sunday. Three others were injured, two of them critically.
The five were sitting in a cavern on top of the monolith overlooking Yosemite Valley Saturday about 6:30 p.m. when a series of lightning flashes started a few small fires and struck the climbers, a spokeswoman said.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 23, 2018 - 02:43pm PT
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Ah, the fake lawyer speaks. The Ninth Circuit does not deviate from the law anymore than the 7th Circuit or (whom I'm sure is your hero, Neil Gorsuch). This is typical Fox News bullsh#t. The fact that you don't agree with the decision does not mean that the court has an alternate agenda.
Sorry for the thread drift...
Looks like Fats is up to a little "fake news" today.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/12/neil-gorsuchs-opinions-never-overturned-by-supreme/
(We'd have to carefully parse exactly what Fatty's somewhat ambiguous claim is to bust his ass 100%, but it seems somewhat deceitful to claim that the great Justice Gorsuch deviated from the law as much as the oft-ridiculed Ninth Circus.)
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 23, 2018 - 02:59pm PT
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Cable Memories October 24, 2007
Up at 5:30 AM after illegally sleeping in the “closed” backpacker’s campground. Reached the base of the Snake Dike via the Mist Trail only to be delayed by a party of three ahead of us. Finally, on route, and on the summit by late afternoon. Lazed around and left the summit in early evening. The cables were down so we had to lift them to use them as hold holds. Reaching the base, I realized I had left our coiled rope on the summit. Oh well, not going back. Wrote it off. Although we did ask two young climbers that were going up the cables if they might contact us later and we’d reimburse them. Never heard from them again.
My 75 year old knees wouldn’t take the steps of the Mist Trail going down, so I took the Muir Trail and promised to meet my partner, who was going to use the Mist Trail, at Curry Village for dinner and a beer. We both took off with headlamps aglow.
I reached the parking area and my partner’s car was gone so I scurried over to Curry Village. No partner to be found, so I had a beer and headed back to the parking area to see if his car was there. Nope. It was about 9 PM by then so I decided to sleep in my car, right there in the parking area with the bear boxes. Well, sleep was intermittent at best and interrupted by bears making their rounds around 11:30 PM.
I gave up and headed back to Bishop. Avoiding a few herds of deer cluttering the highway to Tuolumne, I arrived home at 3 AM – 21.5 hours after arising. It was a long day.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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May 23, 2018 - 06:43pm PT
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Having never seen the cables in the past, my partner and I descended with full haul bag and wall rack, after climbing RNWF for three days, at night before the cables got put up at the start of the hiker season. Glad it was dark.
Don Lauria: That is a hard core adventure
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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May 23, 2018 - 07:05pm PT
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hey don lauria, that is a great shot of the crowds on the cables. is that dj in the foreground, and then val, kimber, and anna in the background. heather was looking at it and wanted to know, steve schneider
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DanaB
climber
CO
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May 23, 2018 - 07:05pm PT
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Our planet is overpopulated.
Well then, why don't you volunteer?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
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Blah, thanks for the nonresponsive admission about your earlier fibs about being a lawyer. And you think I'm the one that needs to be fact checked? I'll leave you to your private dreamy fantasies about Gorsuch, who, in a SCOTUS decision, just screwed employees in what was called an "egregious" departure from precedent.
Again, sorry for the drift.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 23, 2018 - 09:02pm PT
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Blah, thanks for the nonresponsive admission about your earlier fibs about being a lawyer.
Hehe, have no idea what you're rambling about now. But I suppose I prefer your nonsensical foolishness to be being cybestalked and having my law firm unfairly besmirched, so good day!
Oh and Gorsuch found (in a typically lucid and compelling opinion) that the Ninth Circuit screwed up again in Epic Systems, what a surprise!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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May 23, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
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so you're a lawyer blahblah? what's your firm?
anyone trumpeting about the silver stallion gorsuch.....seems like the kinda person what might find a way to get offroute on the cables
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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May 23, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
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What are the odds that this guy was outside of the cables? I would say 99.99% High up, there is a section where it's very steep, and the cables are about shoulder height- I could see someone sliding out there.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 23, 2018 - 09:48pm PT
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The cables are evidently slightly less egregious than the Glacier Point Firefall...how else to explain their longevity. I do think they should drop the wilderness designation Half Dome currently has and redesignate it has a high impact tourist zone.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 23, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
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Is this what’s known as a thread ‘going off the cables’?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 23, 2018 - 09:53pm PT
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Cable drift
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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May 23, 2018 - 10:00pm PT
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The cave is not a safe place. It is the worst place.
exactly
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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May 23, 2018 - 10:21pm PT
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spark gap
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 23, 2018 - 11:30pm PT
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Yeah I guess the cave rocks are a high point so the lightning would strike their first. Maybe head west towards snake dike to lower ground.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 23, 2018 - 11:39pm PT
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Heather is correct. Sorry about the drift, Donini.
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CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
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May 24, 2018 - 06:47am PT
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Trying to think of how lightning has done anything positive for society
There was that one scene in Back to the Future, but I doubt that happens much in real life.
Very sad death. Hope he died doing what he loved.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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May 24, 2018 - 06:59am PT
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Don Lauria, that was a good story!
I’ve never done the snake dike route or the cables as in general I try to avoid hordes of people. But it may be a good plan for a 75th birthday celebration!
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
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May 24, 2018 - 07:06am PT
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You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Someone died and you think that’s an opportunity to spew political opinion.
I’m younger than most of you, but you are acting like children.
The lack of respect is sickening.
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dh
climber
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May 24, 2018 - 08:41am PT
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I'm sorry to hear this news. Have been down those cables a bunch. Last summer was the first time I have been up. Took the kids (12, 10, 6). Six year old was tethered to me with some cord, the rest were on their own. It was all fine, but MAN all I could think about was how bad it would be in the rain. I am so glad that I have had clear skies every time on Half Dome. I know that it is the hike of a lifetime for many people (justifiably so) and it is sad to hear that it ended tragically for this individual and his/her friends and family.
Stay safe,
Dave.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 24, 2018 - 10:30am PT
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I went down the cables once after soloing Snake Dike, and found it just as easy to walk down to the side of the cables since it was such a low angle.
The Tourons were perplexed at my sticky shoes, but it wasn't the shoes, it was just knowing that you can walk down low angle friction if you stay up right
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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May 24, 2018 - 10:47am PT
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Sorry to hear about another lost soul on HD. It definitely requires one's attention and physical competence and basic conditioning (when considered in the context of the approach and descent hike).
I did Angel's Landing with my kids a few years ago (104 degrees that day)- there was nothing from a safety perspective that jumped out at me as a "yer gunna die" moment. I recall spotting them a time or two, but a tame good adventure.
I haven't been on the HD cables with my kids, but that is definitely a step up in risk and physical demand in my book. I've been up the cables once and down them 3-4 times.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 24, 2018 - 11:19am PT
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Around forty years ago this memorial day weekend came down the cables (they were still down). Nobody around, I mean nobody except two guys who'd just finished the NF. It snowed hard. White out on trails already covered in snow. We were headed up to Tenaya ended up lost for two days and eventually down in T. canyon below Cloud's Rest. Good times.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 24, 2018 - 03:48pm PT
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I am sorry to hear of anyone who dies climbing or in climbing-related activities, and sorry if my posts were taken the wrong way. As someone who has been seriously injured in a climbing accident (yes, I was off route), I'd like to think my empathy level is fairly high. The purpose of my first post was to explain that improving the cables would Italic Textprobably not be admissible as evidence of negligence, which was a point that another poster had made.
I do think it's at least slightly useful that members of society have a general understanding of legal concepts. And if people think that whenever there's an accident that the entity in charge of the premises can't improve the situation or else it will get hammered for negligence, that's not usually right.
But you have to use a lot of weasel words when discussing legal rules and concepts--they're not like the laws of science that are generally absolute and don't care what we think of them. Legal rules require application, and they aren't always applied perfectly for whatever reason, and there can be lots of exceptions. I perhaps slightly injected politics solely as an example and to illustrate that point, but that was very much an aside. Then, I got attacked by Fat Dad (as per usual) and things went downhill from there.
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Sacramento
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May 24, 2018 - 06:01pm PT
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Have a beta update on the SuperTopo for RNWF. There were no tourists on top on 5-17-2018.
Actually eerie to top out and see no one on the summit. Eventually one guy strolled up. We also had the cables all to ourselves. Guess it was a weekday and rain was forecast but kinda cool. Rain was predicted but nothing more than a random drop fell as far as I could tell that day and all weekend.
Also, I sure did descend outside the cables. Much stickier out there.
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CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
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May 24, 2018 - 07:14pm PT
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^^^ Half Dome Man in da posted thread video says the beams get nicked for firewood.
Your bigger beam suggestion sounds good cause, being harder to carry than the current offerings, they would be a disincentive-to shivering thieves.
Maybe ASCA should make it a priority. Chouinard could spot a few bucks to get you to do it. He is said to live frugal, so he’d have a little lying around.
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Matt Sarad
climber
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May 24, 2018 - 08:27pm PT
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First time up I took a six pack of Heineken. Drank one bottle and gave the rest away.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Denver CO
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May 25, 2018 - 07:23am PT
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Xcon that is a great idea. It seems safer to actually be on the outside. Or spray some kind of glue-rock coating on the polished areas, like the high traffic trails in the front range of Colorado.
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clifff
Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
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May 25, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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They should replace the steel cable with rubber coated rope to reduce danger from lightning + it would provide a much better grip.
Have a sign advising of the dangers of afternoon thunder storms and that it's much more secure to back down with both hands on the rope (or cable) when conditions are slippery.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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May 25, 2018 - 08:22am PT
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RR once climbed the cable route "no-hands," wearing hard rubber Spiders, I think, crossing them twice but not touching them. This was long before the route's popularity had made the rock within the cables very slick. I wonder if the route could now be done "no-hands," wearing "sticky" rubber...
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Sacramento
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May 25, 2018 - 10:11am PT
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Sorry to hear of the young man's death for whatever reason.
I believe the cables are considered a historic human made feature so they have protections around changing them - ie adding rubber coating or changing configuration of slats.
Wouldn't a via ferrata setup solve all but the lightning strike issues? Seems obvious that people should have the appropriate gear. Maybe the permit system could recommend a harness and lockers of some sort.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 25, 2018 - 11:06am PT
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I went down the cables once after soloing Snake Dike, and found it just as easy to walk down to the side of the cables since it was such a low angle.
The Tourons were perplexed at my sticky shoes, but it wasn't the shoes, it was just knowing that you can walk down low angle friction if you stay up right
That's still my preferred way down, Craig.
It bothers me how casually so many climbers dismiss the death of a "mere" hiker. Hiking, not least of which was the hike to Half Dome, made me want to learn to climb.
Probably my most memorable trip up and down the cables came in the summer of 1968, when I was 17. I was backpacking alone (for the first time in my life), and started at Tuolumne Meadows that morning, hoping to get to Sunrise for the evening. I grossly underestimated my backpacking speed, when I showed up at Sunrise for breakfast, so I decided to keep going. I got to the Half Dome Trail junction at about noon, and decided I might as well detour to Half Dome. That would be my fourth time to the top.
As a result, I got to see a party top out on the RNWF. I had been climbing a little over a year, but never in Yosemite, so this was a real thrill for me. I, and a party of two hikers, were the only other ones on the summit.
Take it easy on the hikers. They may end up being life-long climbers some day.
John
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2018 - 11:32am PT
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They should replace the steel cable with rubber coated rope to reduce danger from lightning + it would provide a much better grip.
Lightning strikes are 300kV, that would arc through any coating they put on the cable. A car ignition system is about 20kv and it is hard enough to contain between the distributor and spark plug.
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