American Duplicity

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Messages 1 - 66 of total 66 in this topic
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 26, 2018 - 01:53pm PT
I build homes for the people in the first photo with the help of the people in the second photo.

It's become more and more pervasive for some of the people in the first photo to decry the mere existence of the people in the second photo. Oddly, the people in the first photo that often, tacitly embrace nativism, tend to be the most likely to exploit the benefits of having the people in the second photo around. Often this coincides with efforts to break every safety and environmental rule that applies to our industry while incessantly complaining about wages.

The people in the second photo will be coming to a town or Crag near you. Their grandchildren will marry your grandchildren in spite of all the efforts taking place right now. It's the second Great American Migration.

10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Apr 26, 2018 - 02:16pm PT
It's become more and more pervasive for some of the people in the first photo to decry the mere existence of the people in the second photo. Oddly, the people in the first photo that often, tacitly embrace nativism, tend to be the most likely to exploit the benefits of having the people in the second photo around. Often this coincides with efforts to break every safety and environmental rule that applies to our industry while incessantly complaining about wages.
The majority(now) will rue the day that the minority(now)become the majority.
2050?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 26, 2018 - 03:51pm PT
Right on Contractor. The extreme nativisim today is the last gasp of people who believe they should be privileged by birth not by merit.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Apr 26, 2018 - 04:01pm PT
Spot on, Contractor!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 26, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
It has been that way before I helped build Mission Viejo in the 70's and 80's.

Same over here without minorities.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 26, 2018 - 05:53pm PT
Take cover...Another PC grenade has been tossed....
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
You accusing me of being PC?

I'll March right into that lawn bowling center wearing khaki mother fuker! Haha...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 26, 2018 - 06:19pm PT
Why don't you hire the lawn bowler guys to dig your ditches? They'll do it if you pay them enough. I'm sure they have a price. Everybody does.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
You accusing me of being PC?

You're a libtard with some kind of guilt-ridden class warfare hair up your a*#.

Here's your new workforce:


A fell host indeed.

Build them all a free shack in a social justice subdivision.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
Ward, you're right about that guilt. In fact the guilt harbored by some of my friends and family is so profound, a few have married and had children with persons of Mexican heritage- clearly to alleviate the pain their race has created.

Thank you for giving me a slap of reality! And to think, I was foolish enough to believe they did it out of love...
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Apr 26, 2018 - 07:08pm PT
Contractor, hope your not paying your workers under the table!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2018 - 07:56pm PT
I knew that was coming. You'd have to like Russian Roulette as a pastime to hire workers under the table these days.

Yes, I audit all my subcontractors once a year for workers comp and liability, which I carry as well. We're all visited by the Department of Labor and OSHA on a regular basis.

A fair number of the guys that I know in the industry that cheat the system are good ole boys that hate the taxman, love their toys and voted a particular way.

Look, this is no commentary, it's more of an observation.
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Apr 26, 2018 - 08:05pm PT
Your legit Contractor, that's all we could ask of anyone!
Odyssues

Trad climber
California
Apr 26, 2018 - 08:12pm PT
WOw!!!!

Contractor is such an American hero....

Yer either hiring illegals or your not. Nobody here knows.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 26, 2018 - 08:13pm PT
This is a subject very close to my heart. But, unfortunately, one about which I believe any sort of rational discussion was torpedoed years ago.

First things first: I live and work in the US, but am not a US citizen. I am here legally, and am seriously happy for the opportunity. But to achieve this status took a lot of work and was far from free.

Your country has benefited enormously from the decision to let me in fifteen years ago, and the decisions, repeated every three years since, to allow me to continue working here. I have expanded the international footprint of the company I work for, increasing US exports. And I've hired and trained half a dozen US citizens who now have jobs they wouldn't have had if I had not been allowed in.

And it works the other way, as well. Plenty of US citizens have benefited from the chance to work _legally_ in other countries.

But what does any of that say about illegal immigration? Should I be pissed that millions of people sneaked in to the US without going through the legal/financial hassle that I did? Or should I be pissed that the US has a visa system that allows white men like me to get in relatively easily, while keeping brown people out?

Are my abilities as an editor more important to your economy than the physical labor of the brown guys in the second photo of the OP?

The US, along with most other first-world countries, needs to have a serious discussion of these questions, but, sadly, I don't see much chance of that happening.
Odyssues

Trad climber
California
Apr 26, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
But what does any of that say about illegal immigration? Should I be pissed that millions of people sneaked in to the US without going through the legal/financial hassle that I did? Or should I be pissed that the US has a visa system that allows white men like me to get in relatively easily, while keeping brown people out?

It actually is racial, but not for the reasons closet-bigots like to claim. Most "white", "Western" people tend to fit our job market. Also with Asians.

"low-skilled" labor is where the sh#t hits the fan. That's our SA brothers and sisters. There needs to be a queue. Plain/simple. And a wall.


Are my abilities as an editor more important to your economy than the physical labor of the brown guys in the second photo of the OP?

Depends, see above.

The US, along with most other first-world countries, needs to have a serious discussion of these questions, but, sadly, I don't see much chance of that happening.

Quite the opposite. You will not like the outcome, I know you, but there will be a decisive resolution of this f-ing conflict. It will be settled, probably in 2 weeks.

For both sides, this has to happen. The law is being twisted. Somebody needs to put their foot down. #SupremeCourt
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
Yer either hiring illegals or your not. Nobody here knows.


My bookkeeper (wife) knows. My tile contractor let his workers comp lapse for a month and I was on the hook to pay his comp bills for that month. She'll take my balls if someone isn't legit.

Any ways, you're pretty much full of sh!t. Brownifest Destiny is heading your way, like it or not.

BTW, you ever had a good carne asada burrito?
Trump

climber
Apr 26, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
Top 1%ers worldwide have an income of $32,400/yr or more. By wealth it’s net worth of $770,000 or more. Keep those 99%ers out!

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 26, 2018 - 09:48pm PT
Solid observation Contractor.

Disregard Ward. Notice he didn't try to distinguish your point. Just an ad hominem to attack on you personally. That's all people like Ward have left. No facts; just bias.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 26, 2018 - 10:11pm PT
So, do we let ‘em all in? Who wants to play god?

Even the righteous Scandihoovians are cutting back, so to speak.

RURP_Belay

Big Wall climber
Bitter end of a bad anchor
Apr 27, 2018 - 09:29am PT
The Meritocracy is dead!

Long live the Meritocracy!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2018 - 09:48am PT
Well said Dingus. It takes at least two generations for our society to absorb the best qualities of a culture and extricate the bad.

This is the Fuel and Power that some call American Exceptionalism and it's our laws that tame the excesses of Church,State and commerce.

The tide of tan, agnostic and practicing pragmatist will continue the trend.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 09:53am PT
Thank you for giving me a slap of reality! And to think, I was foolish enough to believe they did it out of love...

Hahaha. I can learn to like you Contractor.

Some of them no doubt married out of love. Some for other reasons. Very few for flat out guilt.
That kind of liberal guilt is hard to wrap one's mind around.

Which brings up a related point : who does a particular race marry when there are no other races around and they are feeling guilty of mistreatment? Their own race? For instance ,when the Aztecs sacrificed thousands of their own people on altars ,did this later result in them marrying their own people out of a pressing and unrelieved guilt?

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 27, 2018 - 09:59am PT
Empathy and Compassion = "Liberal Guilt" now.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 10:07am PT
She asks: " Roger, are you marrying me out of love?"

Roger: " No, out of empathy and compassion"
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 27, 2018 - 10:09am PT
Empathy and Compassion = "Liberal Guilt" now.
Dead on Stahlbro. A sad state of affairs. I hate to make this observation, but it seems that recently many in this country have simply become cruel. Maybe they always were to begin with but did a better job hiding it.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 10:12am PT
I hate to make this observation,

No you don't .

Liberal baby boomers like to dress up their political power motivations in the language of morality and personal virtue.




JLP

Social climber
The internet
Apr 27, 2018 - 10:19am PT
Most of those Latino laborers will always wipe butt because they're generally uneducated savages. It's just a fact.

The real infiltration is from the Middle East and Asia - computer programming skills $$ and a hard work ethic coupled with a reduced female population and a raging H1-B opening into the States for high paying jobs most Americans are too dumb and lazy to secure - they'll buy you out of your neighborhood and take your women, too.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 10:31am PT
Most of those Latino laborers will always wipe butt because they're generally uneducated savages. It's just a fact.

Not true. They are from a culture run by corrupt and murderous overlords. They are educated enough to discern a much better life awaits them north of the border ( the realm inhabited by our Contractor). Those states in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America which are relatively free of evil influences and grounded in traditional family life and culture have less outflow of desperate people; despite the grinding poverty.

I like Ward because he actually legitimately believes what he’s posting

Gnarly dude.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 10:36am PT
Contractor,

Do you know any of the people in the first photo? Do you know any of their stories? Probably not.

So, you rage against people you don't know--simply because they're white--even as you build their homes while paying non-union wages to your workers to enrich yourself?

Sounds like your angst is a bit off.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 27, 2018 - 10:37am PT
OMG

You libs OWN every politard thread on the Taco Stand. You turn each one into an absolute echo chamber because those of us that are not liberal (which does NOT imply that all of us are "right wing") quickly tire of trying to point out your vast cognitive dissonance, and you won't abide a rigorous discussion, as you retreat into plaintive bleats of "WoT! WoT!"

Don't you have enough threads on the front page already? Did you REALLY need to start up yet another echo chamber to rehash the same old crap you have echoed on dozens of other threads already? Why don't you pick just one, settle in there, and have one designated place to bask in your own righteousness?

It's so tiresome, and it's why after this post I'm basically retreating from the Taco Stand. You guys have become so relentless that this "climber's forum" has literally turned into a "liberal's forum."

You can have it, because, fortunately, I have no reason to think that your views are mainstream, so I feel no need to "win" in this increasingly pathetic context.

Bye bye now.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 10:44am PT
Libs and leftists are excited about demographic changes here--not because they give a rat's ass about human beings, rather, because they see a population more amenable to their socialist dreams at the ballot box.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Apr 27, 2018 - 11:59am PT
My tile contractor let his workers comp lapse for a month and I was on the hook to pay his comp bills for that month. She'll take my balls if someone isn't legit.

We never pay unless there is a certificate of compliance from the insurance company mailed to us....from the insurance company, not the contractor.

That’s followed by a phone call to the insurance agent.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 27, 2018 - 12:29pm PT
You libs OWN every politard thread on the Taco Stand.
Yeah, right...looks who's reared their ugly heads: you, JLP (who has some really lovely thoughts to share), Lituya, Ward. There will be more.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2018 - 12:43pm PT
Lituya-
Contractor,

Do you know any of the people in the first photo? Do you know any of their stories? Probably not.

So, you rage against people you don't know--simply because they're white--even as you build their homes while paying non-union wages to your workers to enrich yourself?

Sounds like your angst is a bit off.

Yes I know them. I live a half block from the senior center where the Lawn Bowing field is. I've been building homes for these people as a laborer, skilled worker and contractor for 35 years.

No I am not raging- I've made a simple observation and put it out there. You're projecting a false narrative to argue against which is fine- thank you for your participation.

Secondly, I simply mark-up labor and materials by 13%, so the more expensive the worker is the more money I make. Apparently your math and business knowledge is questionable but this thread is about duplicity so thanks again for keeping on target.

White workers are going after the skilled jobs or playing video games at home. We employ the person that is willing to do the work legally, efficiently and at a fair price- my clients demand this. I suppose we could do some socio-economic engineering that has White people and brown people doing menial tasks hand in hand for $50 bucks an hour.

Almost all the people in the first photo are fine people and living in a military town, many are vets. Some are asserting their prejudices more openly in our current climate and it's shocking to me- that's all.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 27, 2018 - 04:05pm PT
I want to say I am completely with you Contractor.

See it everyday .
Lituya

Mountain climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 05:07pm PT
Secondly, I simply mark-up labor and materials by 13%, so the more expensive the worker is the more money I make. Apparently your math and business knowledge is questionable but this thread is about duplicity so thanks again for keeping on target.

If this is true—and I suspect it isn’t—you should either, a.) give your workers a raise as labor costs, by your own admission, are not relevant; or, b.) Hire only skilled union laborers from the local hall who bargain collectively.


Low bid mentality is part of the problem you decry. Are you leading the race to the bottom?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
Lituya- That's the second time you've called me a liar but thank you for your comments.

Yes, I exploit my workers. In fact I'm training for the Iditarod and my workers children make magnificent sled dogs.
WBraun

climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 05:41pm PT
All you gota do is take one look at Contractor's work here and you can tell he knows what he's talking about.

His quality of work is above excellent from what I've seen .....


wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 27, 2018 - 05:42pm PT
Truth.
Trump

climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
“You libs”, “libs and leftists”

Jesus, even just talking about the challenges and damages of our human ethnic/racial/national tribalism, we feel compelled to lead and blame people based on political tribalism.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 27, 2018 - 06:13pm PT
Mexicans are all afraid of the dark. They are here in a secret plot to steal back the sun and take it back to Chichicastenango. The Mayan Calendar clearly points to the Oranguchump King as the last of the Chubby Child Kings.
couchmaster

climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
Sac up pussy (Madbolter) besides, how is it you leave us tinfoil wac jobs out of the complaint? I still haven’t moved past the recent Syria attack 2 weeks back where we once again made up some lieing bullshit excuse to drop some bombs. Poison gas my ass.


Same same but same.

Ps we’re down to 4 rational beings left now, but who’s counting.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 27, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
All the fascist attack dogs ran to their fence (wall), and started impotently barking about impending liberal communism. How quaint.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 27, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
Contractor isn't a craftsmen...he's a " paper contractor " exploiting workers and lawn bowlers...Thus the term " con-tractor....Has anyone seen pictures of him with a tool in his hand...?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2018 - 07:00pm PT
That's golden Johny! I'm actually HAL, the human hating computer and I'm going to generate a tax audit on your ass!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 27, 2018 - 07:09pm PT
Dude....I was just kidding...
Lituya

Mountain climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 07:12pm PT
Contractor,

In your original post, you complained about assumedly-racist white retiree lawn bowlers--as illustrated in your first photo--juxtaposed against the exploitation of migrant workers in your second. You went on to admit these workers were under your employ, and that you could easily pay them more.

Truth is, my criticism isn't necessarily with your business practices or how you determine wages. Rather, my complaint is with your hypocrisy and your inability to form an argument without resorting to classic racist rhetoric.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 27, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
Lituya....Did contractor say he was running a charity....Or do you think he's Jimmy Carter sinking 16d's at habitat for humanity...why the hate...?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Apr 27, 2018 - 07:19pm PT
^^

Because the thrust of the original post is divisive, racist, and poorly informed.
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Apr 28, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
nah000

climber
now/here
Apr 28, 2018 - 06:19pm PT
while i'm sure Lituya and i are coming from polar opposite foundations, in the end i have to say i agree with some of his conclusions.

and so the premise as i understood Contractor to have articulated is, from my perspective, only a half truth...



i've spent most of my working life primarily in the same gig as Contractor. and during that time i've worked the entire spectrum.

i started my career working for the working "poor": competing with modular home manufacturers and so in order to build one-offs with no volume backing them, i earned basically little more than a labourers wage while carrying the risk and the brunt of the labour required from leading a three or four man crew [that due to the rural nature of the construction did everything from foundations to framing to drywall hanging to painting to siding to roofing to finish carpentry all while contracting the few remaining subs] that a new home required...

i've also worked for the "middle class": folks who aren't entirely driven by cost per square foot but who also don't have the budgets to hit even 50% of what they "wish" they could have.

finally i've worked for the "rich": folks who can pretty much have what they want. and so while budgets always play a factor, they are secondary to what the client wants. ie. the question isn't whether the money is there, but rather whether they "want" something bad enough...



the point in laying the above out is that the only clients i hope i never work for again [in this lifetime] are those firmly entrenched in the middle class but who have never owned or managed a business and so have no understanding how the globalized capitalistic economy works.

the disgusting entitlement shown by those suckers is something i have not experienced, to the same degree, on the other ends of the spectrum.

"you must be getting rich, because a tract house of the same size costs $200k less, so because we are paying 'so much' more we 'deserve' to have 'insert item here', 'here' and 'and here'..."



while if emotion was a currency i'd only work for the working poor [unfortunately that work only left me both broken and broke even if they did appreciate the work that i did], at least the rich that i have worked for, were mostly about business.

the work has sometimes been a bit excessive and so occasionally tends towards the slightly soulless...

at the same time at least i'm not working for those metaphoric folks that blame the "rich" for banana republics while still happily buying their bananas at 59cents a pound.



the "rich" have never been the problem in democratically and capitalistically driven societies.

the results in those feedback driven societies are ultimately only a result of the decisions made by the masses.

and so if there is to be "blame" for the situation as it currently [in these types of societies] stands it falls squarely on the shoulders of those who think they are owed what the "rich" have while looking down on the "poor" as being intrinsically less valuable than themselves.



the rich have for the most part [in these types of societies] been those who have taken advantage of the latent energy found in the mass of wo/men's simultaneous discontent/arrogance regarding their current situation...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 28, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
It don’t matter. There’s a strain of typhoid that is one minor mutation away from being totally untouchable by antibiotics.
nah000

climber
now/here
Apr 28, 2018 - 06:54pm PT
JB:

i suspect we mostly agree... specifically assuming if one views working the very high end residential [when properly contracted and managed] as effectively a subset of the commercial.

in short, the rest of the mass of present day residential construction is at it's heart a non-sustainable industry...

like stripping or hooking it pays fast cash for those who can put out more than the rest... but once your body can't put out at the same rate?

off to the glue factory with an if you're lucky "fUck you" to acknowledge your presence.



and so ime, like stripping or hooking, residential construction as an industry whole, is, for the most part, built on the backs of those who don't believe there is or aren't able to find a way out... [there are, of course, a litany of exceptions]
nah000

climber
now/here
Apr 28, 2018 - 07:32pm PT
That's why it's called being put to work and not a birthday party.

if that was written in reference to what i wrote, then communication via words has failed one or both of us. ie. there's a pretty big spectrum between being exploited, being put to work and being thrown a birthday partay...

peace.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
The practice of American Duplicity is broad and people from every spectrum have their own unique brand, including myself.

My reference in the original post, clearly stated as "some" are embolden to exhibit racism while specifically exploiting the very people they rail against. I empathize with the worker, but he's here by choice and I understand the exploitation of cheap labor by persons of means as purely an economic calculus.

Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the casting of what type of contractor I am!

Probably got a degree in economics and Daddy bank rolled the operation. Rich friends and associates of the family were fed right to my doorstep. I haven't a clue how to use a tool- so what, I have a hired gun, superintendent to run my jobs. I mostly spend time posting pictures and taking credit for what everyone around me builds.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 28, 2018 - 08:39pm PT
Reilly! Re your post!
It don’t matter. There’s a strain of typhoid that is one minor mutation away from being totally untouchable by antibiotics.


The primary mode of transmission for Typhoid is from water contaminated with human feces from Typhoid carriers. Per Wikipedia: “Typhoid is spread by eating or drinking food or water contaminated with the feces of an infected person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid_fever

And some folks infected with Typhoid are “asymptomatic”, which is to say they can pass the bacteria on to others, but they do not show symptoms.
So far, at present times, Typhoid is not showing up in North America or Europe, but infected world travelers can certainly change that.

There are currently two approved vaccines for Typhoid. I eagerly took the oral vaccine before going to Nepal in 2005. I note current statistics only show a 50% to 70% effectiveness rate for those vaccines.

That’s way better than zero, if you don’t take the vaccine.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 28, 2018 - 08:56pm PT
There are also about 35 viruses primed to wipe out mankind after a minor mutation.
It ain’t a matter of if. I’m changing my Volvo order to an Aston. Screw it!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 28, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
Realtors are amoebas.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Apr 28, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
Lituya
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 28, 2018 - 09:19pm PT
Reilly & all!

typhoid is a baceria.

Viruses do scare me.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Apr 28, 2018 - 09:26pm PT
OMG

You libs OWN every politard thread on the Taco Stand. You turn each one into an absolute echo chamber because those of us that are not liberal (which does NOT imply that all of us are "right wing") quickly tire of trying to point out your vast cognitive dissonance, and you won't abide a rigorous discussion, as you retreat into plaintive bleats of "WoT! WoT!"

Don't you have enough threads on the front page already? Did you REALLY need to start up yet another echo chamber to rehash the same old crap you have echoed on dozens of other threads already? Why don't you pick just one, settle in there, and have one designated place to bask in your own righteousness?

It's so tiresome, and it's why after this post I'm basically retreating from the Taco Stand. You guys have become so relentless that this "climber's forum" has literally turned into a "liberal's forum."

You can have it, because, fortunately, I have no reason to think that your views are mainstream, so I feel no need to "win" in this increasingly pathetic context.

Bye bye now.
No one forces you to read the message.
bye
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 28, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
I guess I'm missing something.

Basic business principles depend upon "supply and demand".

I am hard pressed to understand what massive problem we've had with the immigrants (both legal and not)?

If there are no jobs, they will not come. Are there jobs for these people? Yes. A lot of them. What I've observed in the last few years, as things have tightened with the reduced immigration rate, is employers are having difficulty finding workers. I know farmers that have let their crops rot.
How does that benefit our country?

Our recession had nothing to do with these people. But it greatly reduced the number coming here. Illegals get no benefits, but they pay into OUR system, by law.

California a few years ago, passed from a white-majority to a white-minority. I haven't seen the state falling apart.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 28, 2018 - 09:44pm PT
Ken M....True but mexico hasn't put a man on the moon yet...
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 28, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
I really resent my 10th Grade Teacher who made us read 'The Rise and Fall of The Roman Empire" over the summer of '74.

I fear that I know where our current civilization sits on that Bell Curve as a result of that educational endeavor.


Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
How apropos! The thread that finally sent Mad Bolter running home with his toys is titled American Duplicity.

Of course he has a propensity of showing up in spite of his threats of exile, which is very duplicitous.
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