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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 21, 2018 - 02:43pm PT
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Starting a separate threat to discuss comparison of techniques/approaches without diluting the respect/consideration for the recently departed and those dealing with the aftermath of that tragedy.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2018 - 02:47pm PT
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Riley said (about my comments on the Fiddle Stick):
"I thought you were an engineer? Needlessly complicated = solid?
That violates every engineering principle of redundancy.
If something can go wrong it will. Two ropes tied together with a
slip knott are more solid than that rig."
The anchor needs to be safe and solid enough, not the most solid of every conceivable choice. Other factors to consider include time to set it up, and conservation of the resource. The simpler approach of wrapping a rope around a tree or boulder can lead to deep grooving in sandstone when you pull half the rope across the lip when retrieving the rope. As long as the knot is free to move without anything else touching the fiddle stick, it is pretty good. If there is a high risk of rappeller stepping on the pull line, or the pull line blowing into a raging waterfall, maybe not the best choice! But in the right circumstances, it's solid enough for me to bet my life on it. It looks complicated but is fast and easy to set up.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Mar 21, 2018 - 03:57pm PT
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ghosting. my favorite new canyoneering term. seems less offputting than zero impact, unrecorded passage.
can we not "ease on down the road" through this cathedral without blighting the place and blabbing it up?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 21, 2018 - 05:40pm PT
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(Moved post) Thanks Nut! for the insight you posted on the other thread. It sheds some light. I was having a very difficult time comprehending why canyoneers wouldn't just carry twin ropes. Single line releasable raps and knots like the fig8 block just seem like a lot of unnecessary risk to me. There a couple of ways to LNT with double lines and a much better safety margin.
I guess I also have difficulty relating to a canyoneering mindset where rappelling is a sport or fun. It's never really fun for me- something to be approached with maximum focus and avoided if possible . Obviously not a sport I would take up but to each their own.
Hopefully that accident will serve as a lesson to watch our knots and our partners knots carefully in the future.
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 21, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
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Yea I had a hard time getting over my sense of superiority as a climber the first couple of times canyoneering. There’s more than one way for us to tell ourselves that we love ourselves, and I want to take advantage of them all! But they were better at what they do than I was, so hmmm, maybe they have a point. I hate that! And thanks for the thread.
hooblie love that last sentence!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Mar 21, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
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My sense is that canyoneers' devotion to leaving things as they are as much as possible is exponentially beyond climbers' never-ending inclination to modify their environment for their own convenience.
That said, some of the methods canyoneers seem to have chosen to realize their entirely laudable goals seem glaringly suboptimal.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2018 - 10:00pm PT
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Madbolter's arguments in the other thread start from the presumption that the figure-8 block is a mess and that it is hard to check. That is a position biased by decades of familiarity with rock-climber style knots and systems, and lack of familiarity with the figure-8 block.
I was bewildered when I first saw that demoed, and I failed miserably the first time or two I tried to replicate the process after watching it. But within a few minutes I got the hang of it, and it is actually easy to check from within 5-10 feet away.
Let's also be honest- how many rock climbers here started by taking a class and learning the "right" way to do things? I sure didn't. A friend taught me how to rig a top rope with a few cams and nuts. Maybe used a sliding X or something? I learned the rest from Freedom of the Hills and later some more nuances from Largo's anchor book. I took my friends out who knew NOTHING about climbing and they trusted that I knew what I was doing.
I suspect a similar thing happens in the canyoneering world. Some people just get introduced to it and learn by doing, researching bits and pieces from forums or reading books etc. They probably take less experienced people with them as a form of apprenticeship. This is all conjecture on my part, and may be misinformed. But it would seem a logical way to proceed to grow knowledge, by having mixed teams with enough experienced people who are teaching others.
I have not been immersed in the canyoneering culture so I don't yet know what the distribution of "normal" is in terms of practices and experience and training. I just know a narrow slice to which I have been exposed, which appears to be very methodical and professional and not at all as Madbolter is characterizing.
It does seem to be the case that larger groups is more normal, and having less experienced folks in the mix is also normal. The larger group size does contribute to safety even if it introduces some delays.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 21, 2018 - 10:32pm PT
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I used to do quite a bit of canyoneering in Utah back in the late 90’s back then many of the popular canyons had fixed anchors. The more I got into obscure canyons the more trickery was required. It was at that point I realized I just wasn’t willing to accept the risk that was required. I’m fine doing stuff like Mystery and Pine Creek. I applaud the canyoneering community for the lengths they go to to protect the canyons but it just ain’t my cup of tea. I went through the same progression with kayaking creeks, at one point I realized you can’t breath under water and hung it up. Also having kids helped with the decision. Climbing in comparison is pretty damn safe.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 21, 2018 - 11:01pm PT
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That said, some of the methods canyoneers seem to have chosen to realize their entirely laudable goals seem glaringly suboptimal.
^^^Made me laugh out loud...!
I think a lot of the currently popular canyoneering techniques in the US kind of migrated from wet canyoning techniques employed in Europe.
Folks lower, while on rappel, to set the rope distance to a pool (usually in running water of some degree). A whistle signal stops the lower, and, the rope is fixed at a distance so the rest of the group can plop off the rope into the water without a worry about becoming entangled in excess rope. Also the reason for single rope rappels.
Another reason for the figure eight at the anchor is some folks will slip the rope while folks are rappelling to prevent a rope getting cut on a sharp edge.
I think it kinda morphed into being a contingency from those ideas for someone who gets stuck on rappel and needs to be lowered. Does seem a bit lowest common denominator.
Anyhow, at some point, folks that got into canyoneering from a climbing background started adopting these special rigging tricks, along with a bevy of rappel devices specific to canyoneering. Petzl Pirana, Totem, Kong Oka, Sterling ATS, Canyonwerks CRITR, BluuGnome's SQWUREL, etc. Along with leave-no-trace devices like fiddlesticks, w-anchers, sandtraps, pot shots, etc.
As far as teaching techniques, Rich's ACA has been the model.
https://www.canyoneering.net/about-the-aca/
For "how to" type manuals, there's not many. I think the only reasonable resource in the US is Dave's Canyoneering (Falcon Press). It doesn't cover the use of a figure eight for rigging a contingency anchor but instead shows the Munter/mule. I think most current European manuals show a figure eight at the anchor for contingency.
Anyhoo...the evolution of American canyoneering is an interesting study...and merits scrutiny, debate, critique, study...etc.
Bring it!
Cheers.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2018 - 01:08pm PT
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I did not deeply research alternatives, but it seems like I lucked into a good path for hands-on practical learning and doing. I recommend their approach:
http://uberadventures.net/courses/
If you are an impatient climber with something to prove, to show how much you already know and to argue with the instructor to prove your way is better, the classes might not be a good fit. But if you can keep your ego in check, ears open more than your mouth, there will be a mix of stuff you know and stuff that gives you Aha! moments.
I did ask a lot of questions to clarify issues/considerations when what they taught did not resonate with my climbing experience. If you do that in a respectful way, you'll end up with a bigger bag of tools than when you came in, and better judgment for when to use different tools.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Mar 22, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
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Thanks for taking one for the team Nut :)
Interesting perspective on the evolution of canyoneering. Seems like maybe some cross pollination would make everyone safer. Too much inbreeding leads to deformities.
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
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But who do Flash Floods get?
Beginners, who make poor decisions. Mostly. Thus, I attribute those more to lack of experience than anything else.
And... of course, that is a lot like climbing accidents. But I think canyoneering is a lot more dangerous for beginners.
Tom
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:44pm PT
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^^^ LOL
Is Bluey in today, Locker? You seem to be "on a roll," so to speak. ;-)
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:51pm PT
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I was in Interlaken when 21 people died in an instant. My homies did the recovery.
Unsurprisingly, some of the above proclamations are total BS
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Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Mar 23, 2018 - 10:08pm PT
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‘Ghosting’ is a a wonderfully-inspired idea.
Many canyoneers ‘get it’ in this light...
p.s. i could use a veteran leader for Choprock in May, any one? Beuhler?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2018 - 08:10am PT
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A defense of cairns and dead-man anchors:
If you spend time studying how to build anchors with a dead-man (something buried where the ground in front is what gives it strength), with cairns (where the mass and friction against the ground is what gives the strength) of rock or of sand bags, with rocks tied off as chocks, then you understand better what works and what does not- where the limits are. With this, you can decide how much risk you are willing to take on in exchange for a specific experience you are seeking.
Nobody forces you in climbing to do Bachar-Yerian. Nobody forces you to find obscurities with 60 foot runouts on rusty quarter-inch bolts. Nobody forces you to kayak Class V rapids. You can find them if you want, and that’s some peopel’s game, but it doesn’t invalidate the general activity because some people are addicted to extreme levels risk. Most people are happy to have a pleasant day of climbing without requiring a near-death experience. I assume the same is true of canyoneers. They just have more to think about to assess risk levels before a given outing.
All that said, it’s better to know than not to know how to take advantage of marginal anchors if there are not better alternatives. They should be approached in a way so as to increase safety:
1. Inspect it/ rebuild it before using. Don’t just trust some webbing sticking out from the sand or a pile of rocks! Make sure webbing is in good condition, tied off all the way around, the system makes sense (e.g weight is positioned to increase friction and resist movement of the object to which the webbing is attached, natural constrictions or features are taken advantage of), etc.
2. Back it up (at least with a meat anchor or a person ready to jump on top of a deadman or cairn anchor) for all but the last person
3. Test it with a sequence of heavier people to gain confidence
4. Begin with a “soft start” - ooze over the edge slowly to avoid shock loading the anchor or pulling it in a direction in which it is not strong
5. Rappel smoothly!
If you have spent time training to make anchors from available materials, have experience in well-known canyons to test this fact, and you are somewhere where there truly is nothing you can work with and your life is at stake, it’s not a crime to place a bolt. Having a bolt kit is a part of the repertoire. But it is a last resort thing. Just like it is a major faux pax to pull out a hammer and start nailing pitons in a sandstone crack that takes cams, the same sort of consideration would apply in a canyon.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 25, 2018 - 08:22am PT
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. Back it up (at least with a meat anchor or a person ready to jump on top of a deadman or cairn anchor) for all but the last person
And this is why I stopped doing harder more obscure canyons. The last person was always at the most risk. A bolt anchor or similar would take care of this problem but I wasn't going to impose my climbing mentality. The reward just wasn't worth the risk. I would rather go home to my wife and kids after a adventure.
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clifff
Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
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Mar 25, 2018 - 10:48am PT
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If one is going to rap into waterfalls, and that is the most awe-inspiring place to be, one must have hair and clothing super duper secure so that the fire hose force of the water doesn't wrench them loose, allowing them to jam the rap devise. Also you need to run the rope thru a carabiner on a chest harness so the force of the water won't flip you upside down with the water pounding down into your nose and mouth. Even so some water is Class 6 - unrunnable.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 25, 2018 - 11:46am PT
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Also you need to run the rope thru a carabiner on a chest harness so the force to the water won't flip you upside down with the water pounding down into your nose and mouth.
I've never seen someone run the rope through a biner on a chest harness in a canyon...certainly not commonly done, and, not described in any of the technical manuals that I own (most from Europe).
Biggest flow/waterfall I've ever rappelled...during the rendezvous in Delebio Italy in 2012. We thought since the catchment was small, that the rain forecast for the day wouldn't impact the water flow. Got that a tad wrong, but, no one perished...
Spanish feller starting the rappel. Note the water level at his feet.
Me on rappel (photo by Luca). Gettin' spicy but I drop over the edge. Got beat up by the water flow, but, didn't seem too bad (ha ha). Last one to rap that drop that day.
Waterfall from below.
Good times.
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clifff
Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
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Mar 25, 2018 - 01:09pm PT
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Brian in SLC - inspiring pics. thanks.
The higher the point of rotation is, the less likely one will be flipped over by the force of the water. The chest harness may be too high. A point just a few inches higher than the tie in on the harness may be enough. PVC coated gloves will give a good grip on the rope.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Mar 29, 2018 - 12:49am PT
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That takes the cake, aptly named "The Wanker"
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 29, 2018 - 07:30am PT
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That water anchor works on the same principal as a bail technique I once used on the fire department. I had to bail out a 3 story window at an apartment fire in downtown LA. I took off my breathing apparatus and played it on the floor against the window and clipped my drop line to the SCBA. The friction and weight against the wall was enough to to hold me and I was able to make it out safely.
The difference is my circumstance was an emergency and a last resort. Cool concept though.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Mar 29, 2018 - 07:44am PT
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why in fact, I used a macrame knot just last week, and to great effect.
speaking of one-way, LNT canyoneering approaches to jankors, as yet no mention of the Ibis hook....
or the ol' buried 1 lb coffee can filled with wet sand, threaded through holes punched in the sides.....
or the long-axis friction-pinned, rap-down and then flip-outward-pull trick release backpack trick.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 29, 2018 - 07:49am PT
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I have to admit, I really don't get this canyoneering business, especially the rapping waterfalls part. To each his own, however.
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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Mar 29, 2018 - 01:06pm PT
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Thanks for splitting this thread off, good stuff! I have seen but not used a sand trap, the Wanker is a new one though!
I started climbing and then added in some canyoneering after a couple Utah trips. It's taken me to some pretty amazing places and many of those were better off without bolts and tons of traffic. It's a different mentality, but can in most cases be done conservatively and safely even with non-standard anchors. You build/create/engineer your anchor for the requirements of the situation, which is generally bodyweight only.
I've rapped off a fiddlestick a few times, more often cairns or deadmen though those still require leaving something. In many shorter raps a meat anchor (braced person holding the rope) can be great if you have a good climber downclimb last with the rest of the party spotting. Or similar in concept to the sandtrap/wanker for short drops, just hand line/duffersitz off everyones pack, each with a separate cord on it. When you are down, pull each pack individually (together they are heavy enough to counter your weight, individually they will pop over). Works good for some pothole escapes too.
That whole running water/firehose thing doesn't make sense to me either though. I always worried about getting washed down the next falls before I got on rappel and it wasn't fun.
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