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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 16, 2018 - 03:07pm PT
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The law on easements is quite clear as far as I understand it but I doubt that a ‘use easement’
would hold up.
In regards to property, unwritten rights are the strongest rights.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 16, 2018 - 03:12pm PT
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I kayak Lower Piru Creek from Lake Piru into the Santa Clarita River every year. There is a giant land owner who owns much of the land on both sides of the river. The county road bridge just below Lake Piru is the normal put-in but every time I attempt to get in the river the land owner speeds up in his truck yelling that its illegal to float through his property. Several times the police have been called out and several times the police have told the land owner that there is an easement at all bridges allowing access to the river. We have found wire and barbed wire across the river on occasion but I don't believe it was malicious but meant for cattle.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 16, 2018 - 03:20pm PT
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unwritten rights are the strongest rights
Yeah, that's legal argument likely to fly,...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 16, 2018 - 03:52pm PT
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T, they're cutting not building.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 16, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
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You consider a desire for peace and quiet on land you worked hard to own as a ‘fetish’?
Spoken like a true anarchist.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 16, 2018 - 04:58pm PT
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Yeah, that's legal argument likely to fly,...
It's not a legal argument, it's a rule and an ancient rule at that. Right now I don't have my references handy, but here's what Curtis M. Brown, a foremost authority says:
Within the United States, in most areas, the first right to land must be acquired via a writing, however defective. After a written title is obtained, except in Torrens Title areas, imperfections in the writings can be corrected by long possession or the land area can be enlarged or diminished by the acts of adjoining owners. Written title alone is not the only consideration in determining who owns property; actual physical possession of the land can result in the passing of title. In the order of importance of elements determining who has ownership of land, a legally consummated unwritten right ranks higher than a written title. http://californiasurveyors.org/members/art_lsliab.html
Every land surveyor will tell you that you don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger and you don't mess around with Curt Brown. (or Gurden Wattles, but that's for another post)
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 16, 2018 - 05:42pm PT
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If I like the precedent, then I don’t want it to change. If I don’t like the precedent, then I do want it to change. Didn’t we just have an election about something like that?
Sorry folks, we don’t have a right to things staying the same, much as we might wish we did.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Mar 16, 2018 - 05:55pm PT
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One of the crappier 'artists' all time, Huey Lewis made the news when he fenced off a slough/channel used by generations on Montanans. He has involved himself in plenty of mischief and his $$ will always keep him in the 'right'.
Easy Craggy :) I've done sound for Huey a dozen or so times over many years. Yeah, he may be hasbeen and he is pretty darned old but we all thought he put on one of the better shows back in the day.
I've heard another side to those litigations but I don't remember the details. Are you saying he prevailed because he bought it off? I thought he lost the lawsuit anyway, no?
Arne
edit-I'll have to read up on it. I know it was long and drawn out
edit edit-too complicated. Sounds like he has prevailed for now which is rare for Montana water rights but it is an interpretation by the judge (so far) that its an irrigation ditch not a natural body of water. It looks like a pretty irrigation ditch though, with fish but I don't think he's the crappiest artist of all time.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 16, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
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I think the point about money prevailing in court, as anyone who has been engaged in litigation can attest to, is that it is a war of attrition. Judges don’t decide dick for a long time, and either side can keep filing motions and delays until he other side runs out of money to pay lawyers. And if you try to represent yourself without lawyers, the legal rapeage rises to a whole new level unless you are super-meticulous about paperwork and procedures and filing by deadlines. A lawyer on the opposing side will bury you in paperwork and delay filing until last minute so you have the least time to prepare a response.
Courtrooms are not about finding fairness or reasonableness. It’s just a different type of war with a specific set of rules. And those rules are strongly biased to the side with more money.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Mar 16, 2018 - 10:20pm PT
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Idaho stream access law is based on logger's right’s to float trees down "navigable streams" from the 1800's. By law, that is a stream that will float a log 12" in diameter & 8 feet long, while in flood. On "navigable streams" right of access to the high water line & above it, if needed to continue along the stream, is guaranteed to both loggers & fishers.
That law always worked for Idaho's larger rivers, but Silver Creek, a Blue Ribbon spring creek, near Sun Valley, was "locked-up" by local land barons.
In the 1970’s local fishermen, escorted by Fish & Game wardens, proved it was “navigable” & established public access to it.
There are still “locked-up” streams in Idaho, but I don’t know any that are interesting rafting. That, of course, doesn’t stop a local rancher from putting barbed-wire across a “navigable-stream” to keep his cows from wandering.
The key decision by courts on Idaho stream access, is that the state owns both the water in the stream & the stream-bed. In Wyoming, the state owns the stream, but the local land-owner owns the stream-bed.
I remember that on the great floatable fishing streams around Pinedale, WY, folks could float the streams, but they were trespassing, if they anchored their boats, or got out to fish the stream. And some landowners called the cops on folks that tried to do that.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 17, 2018 - 01:25pm PT
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An "ancient" rule huh? So are the 3 Ss.
Here in Utah easements are registered and subject to subsidence if not used for a certain period.
I think Reilly gets it. Its the bad apples that screw things up for most people.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 17, 2018 - 02:08pm PT
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Think what you want TV, but unwritten easements can be enforced. If you buy a piece of property and people have been using that property for any sort of access or use in the past, you took on that unwritten easement along with any other encumbrance on the property.
Please reread the Brown quote.
BTW, don't be so sure about easements going away due to non-use.
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RussianBot
climber
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Mar 17, 2018 - 02:30pm PT
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Right it’s those bad human apples that are screwing up the climate for everyone else. Don’t look at me - it’s the other bad apples. Those humans are just so f*#king full of themselves that there’s not much room left in their heads for anything else.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 17, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
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Breaking the law on Lower Piru
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 17, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
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"property is theft"
You'll think that until I and 20 of my friends take up residence in your living room.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 17, 2018 - 07:22pm PT
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Piru is navigable, hence state land.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 17, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
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Gary, tell that to Rancho Temescal.
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TheRev
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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Mar 18, 2018 - 07:53am PT
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New Zealand has an interesting approach to management of a river. They gave it full citizenship and personhood . In any legal proceeding effecting the river, it must be represented by a legal team. This is not as strange and artificial as giving a corporation rights under law.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 18, 2018 - 09:29am PT
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"New Zealand has an interesting approach to management of a river. They gave it full citizenship and personhood . In any legal proceeding effecting the river, it must be represented by a legal team. This is not as strange and artificial as giving a corporation rights under law. "
The environmental NGO's sued to protect the Colorado River from being siphoned off to Denver and attempted to use that basis.
The court not only threw it out, the state threatened sanctions for frivolity.
http://kjzz.org/content/576238/lawsuit-give-colorado-river-legal-personhood-over
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