who knew Fanny, in the 70's, was so good

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Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 4, 2018 - 11:37am PT
worthwhile click
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 4, 2018 - 11:47am PT
good catch!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_(band);

those of you who know my iPod also know what the next step is...
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Mar 4, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
I'm not sure I remember the band Fanny.


For me, it was Fanny's Pantry that was so good in the mid-1970's.

You never forget your first conquest in the Valley.


Two years ago, I was wandering around the Church Bowl, after an absence of decades, and was pleased to see people still enjoying the Pantry.


Yosemite's magic covers a tremendously wide bandwidth.








mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 4, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
Alice de Buhr interview (partial)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSKf4ujp-qs

"Sexism is alive and well..."

Thanks for the listen up. Enjoyed it.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 4, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
For the Bird...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
perswig

climber
Mar 4, 2018 - 02:49pm PT
Left alone with big fat Fanny.
She was such a naughty nanny...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGR-ePhFav0

Dale

jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 4, 2018 - 04:00pm PT
Yes indeed, Fanny Flagg was (and is) a delight. My mother's favorite.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2018 - 06:28pm PT
It's a crime I never heard of them. What song, Best Drummer, they deserve their own thread. These days, many with much less talent, are far richer. Doesn't surprise me Wobbler isn't quite there yet.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Mar 4, 2018 - 06:55pm PT
Cold.....man .....lol.

But ,what about Little Feat,ARS,Mott the Hoople,Focus,King Crimson,Genesis,Bowie,Slade,Deep Purple,Black Sabbath,Blue Oyster Cult,Foghat,Marshall Tucker Band,Outlaws.......I mean Green Grass and High Tides.....I could go on .......lol
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 4, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
Don't forget Helen Reddy...My all time favorite group..
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Mar 4, 2018 - 07:04pm PT
Yes,Hula Dancing......Thread drift....lol
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
Wobbler man. It isn't always a contest, no? Considering the company you keep, I'm sure you aren't a bad guy. I just think you're a bit off about some things.

Likewise, I appreciate the folks on the taco. First hand accounts of a unique time are pretty rare. Just that some of your posts give me insight about the "boys club" Lynn Hill sometimes wrote about.

I'll bet you know her, shared a rope, pushed standards.

Hopefully,, think of this as a friendly, what's Up? Then again, maybe I just don't get it.


[Click to View YouTube Video]




zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 4, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
Take a load off Fanny, take a load for free
Take a load off Fanny, and you put the load right on me


Nico, Zeparella

Gladys Knight and Otis Day

Bill E. Holiday and Doc

Sam Fish
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Mar 4, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
W/O Even mentioning,

The Band.......



What about Bonnie or Linda?
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
Let's talk story. No thread drift here. Hula is only bare breasted women in grass skirts? Some Polynesian cultures were matriarchies. Got uncles and aunties? Finally, if you go to the islands try remember where your'e from. You hold your head too high and you might not see what's under you feet.

Don't you surf too?, oh man. aloha. Really aloha.

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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 4, 2018 - 07:56pm PT
Joy of Cooking

Big Brother without Janis? not a great band...

Ramatam had a pretty good lead guitarist...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
around 3:00

zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 4, 2018 - 09:02pm PT

No vocals, eh? Electrical LadyLand

Fanny impersonating Love Hendrix Stills

Damn finejob


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZoO_H71ZkA
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Mar 5, 2018 - 12:33am PT
Here's an interesting set of solos:
[Click to View YouTube Video]

But I have to agree that classic rock was dominated by men - it was a product of its time.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 5, 2018 - 05:27am PT
Man, Fanny kicked Ass!
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
Mar 5, 2018 - 08:44am PT
...real musicianship hasn’t been cool since Punk

Wobbler for the preemptive "swing and a miss"!

Yep, and from the roots of rock and roll, punk was born. Lest we forget the late great David Bowie, an artisan who reached out to generations to come. Bowie's band mates, Earl Slick and Mike Garson, also opened windows for the next generation to express themselves outside the same ol' classic rock template. Peter Murphy of Bauhaus fame respected Bowie, as did Daniel Ash with Earl Slick.

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"Mr. Narrator......this is Bob Dylan to me."
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 5, 2018 - 09:04am PT
another Bowie quote:

In a 1999 interview with
Rolling Stone, Fanny fan David Bowie revealed his respect for the band:[12]

One of the most important female bands in American rock has been buried without a trace. And that is Fanny. They were one of the finest... rock bands of their time, in about 1973. They were extraordinary... they're as important as anybody else who's ever been, ever; it just wasn't their time. Revivify Fanny. And I will feel that my work is done.

— David Bowie

zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 5, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
Reverse fannhy pack. Cute eh Kevin!




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Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Mar 5, 2018 - 07:37pm PT
I don't agree that Bowie had much noticeable influence on Punk. Iggy Pop yes. Bowie - meh - not so much. Punk US style was initially NYC mixed with heavy Upper Midwest whack jobs.

To wit, may I present to you the Motor City 5 ya Muthaf*#kas :

[Click to View YouTube Video]

zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 5, 2018 - 07:44pm PT
Well they weren't Motown that's for sure.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 5, 2018 - 10:14pm PT
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gee who wrote that?
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these guys covered it later I guess...
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zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 6, 2018 - 01:04am PT
Fanny how we tend to forget

Don't overlook what happened when Ma Rainey and Beethoven unwrapped that bedroll

Hypnotic Brass ensemble_ing down by the river


mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 6, 2018 - 01:10am PT
If I may, Kevin, I'd like to say you are beginning to sound like a broken record.

And I thinketh you protest too much about the talent women show or don't show musically (or athletically).

What does it matter as long as it's enjoyable music, man? Keep your eyes closed when listening and you may be lots happier.

zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 6, 2018 - 07:36am PT
Oh mama, papa ooh maumau, and not forgetting of course the hypno_toad



I did not know she hung with Lil Joe, Hop Sing, Ben and Hoss, but FWIW

Don't eat them apples offa that tree unless you know for sure
Will the 'other' Bo take a bough

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10b4me

Social climber
Janie's
Mar 6, 2018 - 07:55am PT
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Gretchen Menn on lead guitar
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 6, 2018 - 08:36am PT
Norma Jean Wofford (more than 50 years ago) took over Lady Bo's spot. Could dance bettern Bo, guitar_wise probably not, but she did pass the audition.


Black Cat Bone and an audience full of young white girls. I'd be willing to bet none of them rode the Tahoe Tram.

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Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:42am PT
generally speaking, in the seventies, female influence and accomplishment in the realm of rock and roll was comparable to its importance in climbing.

Um,
Grace Slick, Airplane days....
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:30am PT
Bowie DID in fact, influence punk on several levels. Of course, punk has its spectrums (just like rock has its spectrums/sub-genres), one of which is gothic punk. Bands like Alien Sex Fiend, Bauhaus, Tones On Tail, Skinny Puppy, Eater, David J, Swans, Christian Death, Shadow Project and many others, praised Bowie for opening the door, especially during a time when music stalled. Lou Reed (especially during Transformer) inspired folks to explore into uncharted territory. Hell, even my favorite band of all-time, Pink Floyd, had an influence on new and experimental music. Syd Barrett already presented himself as a dark enigma, much different than the die-cast character of rock during that time frame. That look and character presence is seen in the goth punk movement today.

Past all that and shifting gears, I'd have to cast my vote for all-time best musician and master of guitar work.......David Gilmour. Hands down!
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 6, 2018 - 12:37pm PT

Nashville cats, play clean as country water
Nashville cats, play wild as mountain dew
Nashville cats, been playin' since they's babies
Nashville cats, get work before they're two


Nashville mayor who had affair with bodyguard resigns after pleading guilty to criminal theft



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zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 6, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
Sandy Bull

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mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 6, 2018 - 05:45pm PT
This is a song about the woman by the ladies.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
who knew Yoko, in the 70's, was so good
(except for the ending tee-hee)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 08:14pm PT
I can't quit you babe?

gee, I though that Willie Dixon wrote that...
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another tune Led Zep covered...
...I wonder if Willie got any royalties on that.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 08:40pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 6, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

My ex-wife's granddaughter.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 08:53pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 08:58pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
hey warbler, can you give a little?
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:02pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:03pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:08pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:18pm PT
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zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:19pm PT
https://metvcdn.metv.com/Ieof2-1502134997-552-lists-alfalfa.jpeg


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wZbDluGjYak&itct=CBUQpDAYASITCOrRsbi82dkCFQkGfwodLUAOrDIHcmVsYXRlZEibt4z_6MLq3VI%3D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UruqFo_jG5s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46G1nRdCOio&itct=CA8QpDAYByITCJCx4aK92dkCFSQkfgod7XYIaDIHcmVsYXRlZEipw42N7vKwy8EB
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:20pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:26pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:28pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:30pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:32pm PT
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zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:34pm PT

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KhG3RVQox7g
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:37pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
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zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lUGJnnI0ics&itct=CBMQpDAYAyITCKHu4uO_2dkCFUbHfgodYBEDbjIHcmVsYXRlZEjNvNCNrI6gytIB




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a2H_U_BXaLM&itct=CAkQpDAYBSITCNDT27jB2dkCFc2Pfgod1E4EtDIHcmVsYXRlZEig9JuWzsLft60B
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:41pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
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Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2018 - 09:49pm PT
Classic

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Modern classics

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Nevermind

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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:53pm PT
Good night Irene

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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:53pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:00pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:02pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:04pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:05pm PT
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Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:06pm PT
Thanks Ed! Especially for the Siouxsie and the Banshies link.

ps and for Bikini Girl. I wasn't familiar with them/her.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:09pm PT
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Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2018 - 10:10pm PT
catchy tune

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:10pm PT
seems like the time I grew up in had a lot of great "rock & roll"

Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
OK, this doesn't belong here 'cause it's contemporary and they're a little too folk-bluesy, but effing-A they're good. You Bay Area people can check them out from time to time. Do! The lead singer on this clip plays blues guitar and when she does: I have to admit that my heart goes pitter-patter.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:47pm PT
^^^good one Darwin!

warbler, all girls? you obviously didn't know a lot of what I posted above, but ok we can do all girls...

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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:48pm PT
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Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2018 - 10:49pm PT
Hehe he, <cough>, ummmm















Addendum: Ed's playlist
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:52pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 10:57pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:00pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:02pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:03pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:05pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:10pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:14pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:17pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:21pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:23pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:27pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:29pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:31pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:34pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:39pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:44pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:46pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:48pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:53pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 6, 2018 - 11:56pm PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 7, 2018 - 12:01am PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 7, 2018 - 12:08am PT
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tornado

climber
lawrence kansas
Mar 7, 2018 - 12:10am PT
Sheesh somebody likes YouTube.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 7, 2018 - 12:11am PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 7, 2018 - 12:14am PT
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 7, 2018 - 12:17am PT
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zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 7, 2018 - 07:22am PT
Keep on truckin' Doc. but don't drift too far from shore...

Did anyone notice that the menz & wimmins can actually collaborate to good effect? (e.g. Duane & Aretha, Cindy & Sonny, Werner & Merry, Patti & Bob)

Be careful whre you take that knee

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mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
Mar 7, 2018 - 07:35am PT
Neko Case, Laura Veirs and KD Lang

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Dang, Ed.....you were on a roll!
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
Mar 7, 2018 - 07:37am PT
Lang hitting it out of the park with 'Helpless'.....

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Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 7, 2018 - 12:09pm PT

I'd say Big Mama Thornton has more balls than Hendrix

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mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 7, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
International Women's Day, every March 8 since 1910.

Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2018 - 06:54pm PT
If everything is a c*#k measuring contest, who wins?
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 7, 2018 - 07:12pm PT
The one with the most accurate micrometer.
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 7, 2018 - 07:22pm PT
That's the same thing David Dennison said

Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2018 - 07:48pm PT
HaHa! You the man Mr. Wobbly one. One last one for you.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

We should all be so lucky

Like the lama says..

No mas eh
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 8, 2018 - 09:19am PT
They’re just not cut out for getting together and cranking out reel good rock n roll.

that would seem more the statement of opinion rather than a statement of fact.

Though I'm not sure what "reel rock n roll" is: a cross with celtic dance? the image of Meatloaf collapsing off stage? an old school rock video?

is this what you're talking about?
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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 10:54am PT
obviously the rock bands we know in their fame were a product of financial investment by record companies who were looking to make a money off of the popularity of that music.

many all-woman rock bands never had the support of the record companies, especially in the early period of rock-n-roll. the production quality of, say, the Rolling Stones and the Beatles, greatly increased from their beginnings to the acme of their popularity. This wasn't because guys did it better than gals, but because of the financial investments made in the bands.

how many all-black bands made it in that period of time? strange since almost all of the foundational material used by white bands was appropriated from those rhythm and blues classics, many never correctly attributed. Robert Johnson's "Love in Vain" an example, covered by the Stones and attributed to "Jagger and Richards" usually the attribution for lyrics and melody, the ways the compensation coming from royalties are divided up... no mention of Robert Johnson there.

so it is not just the talent of the rock band that determines how far they'll go. as you know, a huge part of the mix is the promotion, and if that is not there you don't get you guy bands either, talent being the smaller part. the promotion obviously targets the audience that has the money to buy the product. an audience whose tastes often follow the promotional advertisements.

of all the bands I posted above, I actually really liked Autoclave, the music was interesting and the genre "math rock" was new to me. the low production value of the video, and the obvious limited commercial appeal of the music does not detract from the quality of the musical composition or the talent of the musicians.

comparing it with "Stairway to Heaven" would be absurd

but maybe you have other facts...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 11:33am PT
...not at all what I said, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Hardly Visible

Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
Mar 11, 2018 - 11:42am PT
Okay, not much to add here but putting up a Metallica video as a high bar for “guy” rock and roll is pretty lame. You might as well just lay the bar on the ground.
Being a good musician or having the ability to “rock” is not gender specific, those who take the time to practice will have it whether they receive critical acclaim for it or not. Critical acclaim in the past (maybe not so much anymore) was more based on what Ed said above, “the rock bands we know in their fame were a product of financial investment by record companies who were looking to make a money off of the popularity of that music”, and “This wasn't because guys did it better than gals, but because of the financial investments made in the bands” period.
Meanwhile here is a couple of gals in their very early twenties rocking out with Guthrie Govan, looks like old dads may have to step up their game.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 11:45am PT
^^^maybe it's not fair because the have dexterous little fingers...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 01:05pm PT
^^^he's no schoolboy but he knows what he likes.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 11, 2018 - 01:07pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 11, 2018 - 01:23pm PT

Warbler.

It's best done by girly boys...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

No wonder parents back in the day didn't want their kids to listen to these girly boys... very bad role models...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
you have a mind?
isn't that the first step?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 11, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
Mooch said:
Past all that and shifting gears, I'd have to cast my vote for all-time best musician and master of guitar work.......David Gilmour. Hands down!

I don't know much about this stuff and I don't play an instrument, and though I'm not necessarily supporting Mooch's opinion of David Gilmour's guitar playing (though I do love Gilmour's highly emotive style), and I'm not directly providing fodder for either Ed Hartouni's or Kevin Worrall's debate, I DO enjoy a wide variety of musical styles, and I get a kick out of these play-along videos!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

More from Tina S,
She sounds to me to be in some of this borrowing/expressing the virtuoso style of Yngwie Malmsteen?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 11, 2018 - 04:52pm PT
I'm probably one of the few here who has supported some of Kevin's unpopular opinions or more specifically, aspects of his position here on the forum, namely that any movement can at times and in specific instances go too far, and if left unchecked through self-reflection and critical thinking, can also produce fanaticism.

Ed, Kevin:
I have no problem seeing your perspectives, and find much validity in both.

But sometimes, I sense that you each are struggling with a tug-of-war over the short ends of a very important Gordian knot.

Kevin, remember in the Hazel Findley thread where you asked Cat T whether, concerning her interest in supporting women's reproductive rights, she had tried to influence the wives of conservative lawmakers in Texas?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3000669&msg=3012469#msg3012469

And where I suggested there were movements started by the ecofeminists, exemplified by what Merle Lefkoff did during the wars in Bosnia to empower women as an aspect of mediation & conflict resolution and also (this second example not specifically mentioned then) Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring, which did great things for our society such as eradicating DDT, signifying an example of the productivity of the women's movement(s)?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3000669&msg=3012545#msg3012545
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3000669&msg=3012581#msg3012581
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3000669&msg=3012608#msg3012608

*links provided only for reference to earlier conversations.
........................................................

In that vein, let's try this one, an excerpt from:

Sex and War, How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World, Malcolm Potts and Thomas Hayden, 2008, Benbella Books, Inc.

Pages 13-14, why supporting women's autonomy and reproductive rights may really matter in the big picture
The evolutionary perspective we take here highlights the fact that team aggression is predominately an activity of young males, and although it affects women it very often does not benefit them in a lasting way, as we will show. Women compete for resources for themselves and their offspring, and may even benefit from associations with the most aggressive, successful male leaders or groups, but their competition is not usually expressed with such violent destructiveness as among men. There are women gangsters, warriors, and terrorists, of course, just as there have been great female military leaders. But despite some fanciful misinterpretations of prehistory and anthropology, women have never shared men's propensity to band together spontaneously and sally forth to viciously attack their neighbors.

The same can be said for older males, who may well gain more from war as generals than the young do as foot soldiers, but who also generally have much more to lose. We will show that societies where the proportion of young males to older males is high are often particularly prone to conflict – and that one way to reduce the risk of violence is to empower women and maximize their role in society.

This is perhaps the most profound insight to come from taking an evolutionary perspective on war: empowering women reduces the risk of violent conflict. Far from being a politically correct notion of feminist philosophy, women's role in reducing the risk of war is born out by rigorous study and historical experience. We will argue that contemporary Western nations have a great opportunity to make the world more secure and reduce terrorism by doing everything they can to empower women who live in countries where they currently enjoy few choices and wield little or no political power.

There is a clear and important evolutionary link between this biological perspective on war and Martha's and my work in family planning. For most women, the first step toward autonomy and equality is the ability to choose when to have children, and how many to have. From Italy to Iran, it is an empirical fact that wherever women have access to modern family planning, family size always falls. This is of crucial interest at a time when rapidly growing human population stresses our infrastructure and social systems, and threatens what remains of the natural environment. Reducing birthrates can also have a dramatic effect on the prospects for peace by reducing competition for resources and lowering the ratio of testosterone-filled young men to older men and women in the population. By understanding this and other biological dynamics underlying war, we can begin to see our way toward taking real, effective action to reduce war's likelihood and limit its destructive potential.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 04:53pm PT
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_Roll_Hall_of_Fame#Criticism

Criticism
The most frequent criticism of the Hall of Fame is that the nomination process is controlled by a few individuals who are not themselves musicians, such as founder Jann Wenner (co-founder and editor-in-chief of Rolling Stone magazine), former foundation director Suzan Evans, and writer Dave Marsh, reflecting their personal tastes rather than the views of the rock world as a whole. A former member of the nominations board once commented that "At one point Suzan Evans lamented the choices being made because there weren't enough big names that would sell tickets to the dinner. That was quickly remedied by dropping one of the doo-wop groups being considered in favor of a 'name' artist ... I saw how certain pioneering artists of the '50s and early '60s were shunned because there needed to be more name power on the list, resulting in '70s superstars getting in before the people who made it possible for them. Some of those pioneers still aren't in today."[41] Sister Rosetta Tharpe is often considered "The Godmother/Grandmother of Rock & Roll",[42][43] but was not chosen for induction until 2017. Also, the influential soul/funk group Tower of Power has not yet been honored. Velvet Underground drummer Maureen Tucker has dismissed the Hall of Fame as the "Hall of Lame".[44]



Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 05:02pm PT
But sometimes, I sense that you each are struggling with a tug-of-war over the short ends of a very important Gordian knot.

for my part, I have only argued that Kevin seems to take a rather simple view of the vastly complex issue, without examining his underlying assumptions, particularly of the "data" he marshals.

Sexual dimorphism is an entirely non-controversial phenomenon, it exists in the primates and in humans.

What that has to do with Rock 'n' Roll, or rock climbing is not at all obvious, and Kevin's argument as to why it does matter is not at all convincing.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 11, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
Thanks for reading my longer post, Kevin.
I know it is somewhat off-topic and more far-reaching.

.............................

Well, of the three women covering Comfortably Numb, from the standpoint of tone and feeling, I prefer Sylwia Urban's effort (1st of the 3 YouTube links) to that of Emily Rose Hastings' or Tina S'.

.............................

Definitely an astounding technician, le petite juene fille

Soul, melody, blues roots?

Not so much

Great guitarists, and great musicians in general, use changes in tempo and empty space to make their music great.
^^^
And regarding your assessment of Tina's work (4th YouTube link), given that it is for me, similar to Malmsteen's neoclassical metal playing style, YES.
(It may also be due to her more feminine inner workings. I don't know. I'll let somebody else provide counterpoint to that notion in particular).
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2018 - 06:16pm PT
Ed I appreciate you trying to instill a bit of rationality on the taco.

You may find some other stuff here:

https://www.amoeba.com/blog/2015/03/eric-s-blog/all-female-bands-of-the-1970s-happy-women-s-history-month-.html

Also, I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree with Warbler. Not that I think he would agree with that.

Guess I lied:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_audition

the same words used by Warbler were used by Orchestra masters and conductors regarding non-white-male musicians, but only when they knew who the musicians were. Once the auditions were done blind, the number of these under-represented musicians increased dramatically.

The test for Warbler would be to distinguish a rock performance without knowing the gender of the musicians. My guess is that he would say he could do it, my guess is that he couldn't.


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 11, 2018 - 06:28pm PT
Ed,

The bias proven (I think we can say it was proven, yes?) in the selection of players by orchestral masters is one of the most salient and important examples you've brought forth in all of these discussions.
Blind performance auditions, much research has proven, often results in the hiring of more women and minorities because it eliminates the opportunities for bias to influence who makes the cut.
^^^
From the Wikipedia link in the prior post by Ed.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
I think I brought it up before (in another thread)... but it never hurts to reiterate in these discussions
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 11, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
Yes, you brought it up in the thread: When Feminism Goes Too Far, about the piece written by Davita Gurian.

The reader may wish to go here for more context and detail:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2932616&msg=2933859#msg2933859
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 11, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
Dig the rockabilly!
Let's see if these compilations are any good, you know, for our purposes & enjoyment:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 11, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
I don't see the orchestral bias findings proving any generalizations about women in climbing or music regarding presumed or expected parity in performance with men, it just shows that we can do better in terms of removing bias where expectation is concerned.

I.e., removing glass ceilings is helpful, but it won't necessarily make us equal. Equal opportunity, not presumption of equal performance upon removal of limited or low expectation. We should encourage everyone to be at their best, however that shakes out.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 11, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
I think you misunderstood the example from orchestra players, who are supposed to perform at a high level as musicians, not just at a technically high level. Men who were excellent musicians and responsible for auditioning the candidates were biased enough not to recognize an excellent performance because of that bias: the bias being that women couldn't perform at those high levels.

They were wrong.

However, judging performance can be loaded with cognitive bias. In the Rock 'n' Roll case you particular taste in music can bias you. Who are you to say what "Rock 'n' Roll" is, anyway? Same in climbing, which you quickly modified your criteria on once mere execution of moves was shown to be a gap closing quickly between gals and guys.

I believe your gambit then was "adventure" climbing, that guys were bolder than gals, and more likely to push the envelope in creating new climbs.

If the complex issues of performance, and especially the mental aspects of performance, were explained by a single factor, say the amount of testosterone in your blood, then I certainly missed that data. Most studies that I know find that too much testosterone inhibits mental performance.

If I apply that to you in this (and other like) threads that might explain a lot; lay off the vitamin-T warbler! Such a simple explanation.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 11, 2018 - 09:14pm PT
Uh, oh, put your beer goggles on for this …

Kevin said:
To simplify, Feminists claim that if men weren’t such dicks, the numbers would be equal. I believe it’s biology in both regards, related to higher testosterone levels in men, and the evidence, so far in human evolution, supports that. I ask for examples that prove the claimed equal performance and enter the condescending ad hominem attacks, tangents and smoke and mirrors.

It’s pretty damn funny really

I tend to agree with that short passage, Kevin. I see it happening to you all the time, and I don't think it's that funny. You do draw a lot of attention to yourself, and you bring it up/respond a lot.

Your opponents may disagree with you on specific points, or even fundamentally: nothing wrong with that at the outset. But it goes further. I think what you are experiencing is endemic to an argumentative mode typified by polarization in our culture at large. Knee-jerk, emotional, defense of position or opinion based on ego (and importantly, at the root of it, caring, with a heavy dose of misdirected tunnel vision and oversimplification baked into the cake). In this particular case, those who want the most for women and minorities can often succumb to a lack of objectivity when it comes to digesting your opinion and perspective, Kevin, to the point where criticality coming from you is interpreted as wholesale resistance to fair play on your part.

Nuance is too often overlooked. It starts reading to me like: You are either with us or against us. For me that's dangerous. I can and do support the general vector of feminism, I think there is still work to be done, but sometimes see fault in its execution at one turn or another, such as things you often allude to, Kevin, and a few times I've been reflexively attacked as a sexist, misogynist, or racist, usually by people that don't read thoroughly enough, and succumb to cherry picking individual statements of mine and abusing context. Which is to say they don't understand me at all, because they are not doing the work of reading the totality of my position in regards to individual statements I've made within these long streams of discussion.

You, Kevin, on the other hand maybe not so much, everyone knows you are a brute! Ha ha.

Many people like arguing and they like winning. Exchange, understanding, and productive discussion require hard work. Taking sides is easier. It relieves one from withholding judgment and doing the work of penetrating deeply into a topic. Most don't have that much time or don't want to commit it. They think they already know where they stand, and succumb to the temptation of oversimplification, more for the sake of economy of time, as far as I can see. I like music, and I like problem solving. And you know, I like women and what they bring to artistic expression, which is why I entered this particular conversation. I don't feel the need to stand strongly against people's opinions or to defend my own. I always suspect that with time, I'm likely to change or amend my position, at least with regard to details, so why bang around against the shell of another person's portrayal of their particular intellect in support of it?

You and Ed, in general, understand each other pretty well. I say that with the caveat that there can always be improvement. And it's a good debate!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 12, 2018 - 08:53am PT
F*#k the testosterone c*#k rock symbolism and bulging crotches...That disappeared in the 70's... Punk pushes the boundaries of chaos releasing the inner savage ....That's who we really are...That said , whatever happened to Helen Ready...?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 12, 2018 - 08:56am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:12am PT
DMT...The missing bulging crotch should have been your first clue it was a lady...Were you not looking...?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:15am PT

Rocks: So does PJ Harvey when she wants to...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 10:27am PT
I really don't think Warbler needs any backup to fuel his fire,
And really, Scout's honor, I'm mostly here for the offerings such as the ones Marlow just queued up from PJ Harvey, but since you all insist, here goes:

From Malcolm Potts & Thomas Hayden's Sex and War, pages 25, 26, 27:
But then circumstances changed, and commercial whaling all but eliminated great whales precisely because they had to surface in order to breathe air – the same trait went from being highly adaptive, to neutral, to wildly maladaptive, solely because the great whale's environment changed.

We propose that, like the lungs of a whale, the human male predisposition to violence, teen aggression, and war are, in essence, an evolutionary hangover. The impulses behind the behavior must once have given a reproductive advantage to those who express them – and in some cases may still. But culture and conditions have changed while the genes have not, and many of our Stone Age impulses are decidedly undesirable in an Information Age man. The simple fact is that biology has painted us into a behavioral corner, and it's up to us to find a way back out of it. That's where we have the advantage over Wales – they can't stop breathing, but humans could choose to stop fighting wars.
^^^
I find this interesting in the context of rock 'n roll music, because Pete Townshend, to paraphrase him in one of the interviews I've seen, described his guitar playing as an artistic, expressive act of (destructive?) violence and rebellion.

*I'd love to source the actual quote.

We recognize instincts in other animals, as when a cat or a dog cares for its young, but the word instinct is rather too mechanical to capture the subtlety of human behavior. EO Wilson calls the behavioral frameworks we have inherited *predispositions*, a term we have already used. Sometimes, a single gene can control these tendencies or proclivities. It has been shown for example that the lack of a particular gene in a mouse (and possibly a person) produces a self-destructive fearlessness. Mice lacking the gene run about in the open and climb on prominent objects exposing themselves to cats and other predators instead of hiding. However, most behaviors, such as our desire for sex or our ability to hate our neighbors, depend on complex, shifting interactions between large sets of genes and are influenced by the environment around us.
^^^
"Lack of a particular gene … produces a self-destructive fearlessness"???

Alex Honnold, Peter Croft, anyone? I know, I know. How very shallow of me. Couldn't resist. They are but noble gods to us, of course.

Jane Goodall observed that male chimpanzees make mistakes and fall out of trees twice as often as female chimpanzees, and that all the falls over ten meters involved males. Human accident statistics also show that young men are twice as likely as young women to break a leg or an arm. Obviously, culture plays an important role (a little girl who is taught to stay at home is unlikely to be run over in the road), but the chimpanzee data does suggest that the predisposition of men to take more risks than women probably also has a biological basis
Guys are natural risktakers. Free soloing, risky FA behavior, necky trad climbing & super alpinism, anyone?

Not that women can't learn, adapt and excel at such endeavors, but they may not be the most naturally inclined toward them. The best rebuttal I can provide for Warbler's argument is that we shouldn't predisposition ourselves to limit them from doing so by saying they can't, or they aren't suited to it. Let them have at it and have their fun too. Let their resume speak as climbers, not their gender. But it's hard not to expect they probably won't cleave to such behavior with as much zeal across the board, as will men. Big, ballsy, potentially gene deficient manly men. And Catherine Freer, along with other outliers.

I don't think trad climbing per se, is such a limiter. I see that more as an artistic expression than one of sheer risk-taking. Plenty of women excel therein.
I really can't venture to comment on shredding the gnar on blues guitar and the like. Even if Pete Townshend says it's partly an act of aggression and rebellion, I think women have plenty of reason for expressing those feelings in the context of art.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 12, 2018 - 10:54am PT

I am sure Steph Davis is a higher degree risk taker than 99,9% of the world's male climbers. You find more freaks of nature among males than among women, but you can't construct a credible one point "male only adventure and risk taking, female comfort and safety" rap...

That's a point the Warbler is missing in his rap... His motivaton is strange... a strange attractor from his childhood?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 10:58am PT
Repost, but the two cuts pair up so well:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

I know, the lead guitarist Eric Erlandson, was a guy.
Love the energy!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 11:12am PT
I agree, Kevin,
Catherine Freer and Steph Davis are likely outliers and anomalies.

But along the lines of blind auditions for orchestras, the less we label it (anomaly), the more likely we are to see what they can do as individuals and as a group. True, it's hard to withhold expectation based on the evidence, but it can be productive nonetheless to tone down those expectations of limitation. I'm guessing that's the point of those who rail against you, if they really looked into it. It's a subtlety. This isn't binary, and neither is your position. And I doubt you miss it, all on your own.

I will never understand why some women want so badly to be just like men, and why those same women often resent the very men they strive to emulate.
^^^
That's just the price we (not just men) all pay for holding them down: now, holding them down (patriarchy) is a popular narrative, whether it's true or not varies widely.

Check the movie about artificial intelligence called Ex Machina: a guy makes an artificial woman, keeps her in a glass box for the sake of testing her viability as a sentient being, she deceives her tester (leveraging her feminine wiles) and stabs her maker to get out into the sunshine. F*#k man, I would too!

[edit]
*Ha ha, posted the same quote as Marlow and at the same time! But for different reasons, and I like Marlow's usage as well.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 12, 2018 - 11:12am PT

I will never understand why some women want so badly to be just like men

One more strange attractor ... speaking of women in general terms.

Do you think PJ Harvey and Steph Davis want to be men?

At least not to my knowledge...

Steph Davis is no more of an anomaly than Buhl and Bonatti... They are all three of them freaks of nature, yes...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 12, 2018 - 12:06pm PT

Then, drop the generalities and tell me about one concrete woman and her points of view.

You continuously jump up the ladder of inference in a categorical dance to fit your one point rap... That's rather boring, just like Largo on the Mind thread... Though Largo's one general "first and third person perspective" point I find more valid than your one point (men adventure/risk, women comfort/safety)...

I agree that feminisme can end up as ideology and political correctness far removed from what is actually going on... but that's only possible when speaking from the top of the ladder... just like you often do...

Maybe you're searching polemical play?

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 12:15pm PT
Anybody remember Thelma and Louise?
From Wikipedia:
Thelma & Louise is a 1991 American road film directed by Ridley Scott and written by Callie Khouri. It stars Geena Davis as Thelma and Susan Sarandon as Louise, two friends who embark on a road trip with unforeseen consequences.
Numerous critics and writers have remarked on the strong feminist overtones of Thelma & Louise. Film critic B. Ruby Rich praises the film as an uncompromising validation of women's experiences,[11] while Kenneth Turan calls it a "neo-feminist road movie".[12] In her essay "The Daughters of Thelma and Louise", Jessica Enevold argues that the movie constitutes "an attack on conventional patterns of chauvinist male behavior toward females". In addition, it "exposes the traditional stereotyping of male–female relationships" while rescripting the typical gender roles of the road movie genre.
^^^
Man, when I saw that film, as a rock climber, a lifer, which is to say essentially a social outcast within the context of my own American society from the 70s through the 90s, I felt more kinship with those two female characters than most men with whom I competed in the marketplace. Not because of my feminine side or any such stuff, but because they represented the survival of the artist, of the societal OTHER.

..............................................

Concerning the grunge rock group Hole, from Wikipedia:
Hole is an American alternative rock band that formed in Los Angeles, California in 1989 by singer and guitarist Courtney Love and lead guitarist Eric Erlandson. The band had a revolving line-up of bassists and drummers, their most prolific being drummer Patty Schemel, and bassists Kristen Pfaff(d. 1994) and Melissa Auf der Maur.
^^^
Okay, it was a joint effort between a woman and a man, (Love and Erlandson) but she definitely fronted the group, and it definitely looks more like a collaboration with mostly women and one guy, so we can't say it was creatively a guy with just a woman offered up as vocal windowdressing.

Hole has been noted for being one of the most commercially successful female-fronted rock bands of all time, selling over three million records in the United States alone[2] and having a far-reaching influence on contemporary female artists. Music and feminist scholars have also recognized the band as the most high-profile musical group of the 1990s to discuss feminist issues in their songs, due to Love's aggressive and violent lyrical content, which often addressed themes of body image, abuse, and sexual exploitation.[3]

In the months preceding the band's full formation, Love and Erlandson would write and record in the evenings at a rehearsal space in Hollywood, loaned to them by the Red Hot Chili Peppers;[13] during the day, Love worked as a stripper to support the band and purchase amplifiers and their backline for live shows.[14]

And then the creative core of the group becomes two women and the man:
Love and Erlandson began writing new material for a second Hole album in 1992, in the midst of Love's pregnancy with Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain. Love's desire to take the band in a more melodic and controlled rock format led bassist Emery to leave the band,[31] and drummer Caroline Rue followed. In an advertisement to find a new bass player, Love wrote: "[I want] someone who can play ok, and stand in front of 30,000 people, take off her shirt and have 'f*#k you' written on her tits. If you're not afraid of me and you're not afraid to f*#king say it, send a letter. No more pussies, no more fake girls, I want a whore from hell."[32] In April 1992, drummer Patty Schemel was recruited after an audition in Los Angeles, but the band spent the remainder of the year without a bassist; Love, Schemel, and Erlandson began to write material together in the interim.[26]

Hole went on to become the most commercially successful female-fronted grunge band in history, selling over 3 million records in the United States between 1991 and 2010.[2][134][135] In spite of Love's often polarizing reputation in the media, Hole received consistent critical praise for their output, and was often noted for the predominant feminist commentary found in Love's lyrics, which scholars have credited as "articulating a third-wave feminist consciousness".[136] Love's subversive onstage persona and public image coincided with the band's songs, which expressed "pain, sorrow, and anger, but [an] underlying message of survival, particularly survival in the face of overwhelming circumstances."[137] Music journalist Maria Raha expressed a similar sentiment in regard to the band's significance to third-wave feminism, stating, "Whether you love Courtney [Love] or hate her, Hole was the highest-profile female-fronted band of the '90s to openly and directly sing about feminism."[138]

While Rolling Stone compared the effect of Love's marriage to Cobain on the band to that of John Lennon and Yoko Ono, they noted that "Love's confrontational stage presence, as well as her gut-wrenching vocals and powerful punk-pop songcraft, made her an alternative-rock star in her own right."[139] Author Nick Wise made a similar comparison in discussion of the band's public image, stating, "Not since Yoko Ono's marriage to John Lennon has a woman's personal life and exploits within the rock arena been so analyzed and dissected."[140] The band has been cited as a major influence on several contemporary artists, including indie singer-songwriter Scout Niblett,[141] Brody Dalle (of The Distillers and Spinnerette),[142] Sky Ferreira,[143] Lana Del Rey,[144] Tove Lo,[145]Tegan and Sara,[146] and the British rock band Nine Black Alps.[147] The band ranked at #77 of VH1's 100 Greatest Hard Rock Artists.[148]

You know, maybe because I'm a guy, it's a bit of a land grab.

But as a dedicated climber who gave it everything he had in the face of what could then have been essentially considered a culture largely averse to that lifestyle, I relate to some of this sh#t women have been through in a big way. I can't exactly say I feel Courtney Love's pain, but I empathize with it, inasmuch as any struggling artist objects to the background of their struggle and their arising, whether it be economic, gender, cultural, or racially based.

And I think all of this Struggle, with a capital S, comes through very strongly in her music. It's communicated. It's felt. And For me, there's a recognition.

......................................

Read one of my favorite authors, a feminist and a magical realist, Jeanette Winterson, in her work of literary criticism: Art Objects.
Not objects as in things, but objects as in disapproval or disagreement with the status quo. I may pull from that later ...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 12:34pm PT
Kev said:
I don’t approach this debate or any other polemically or with any vitriol, Roy, until my opponents continue to refuse to back up their (bs) position, or resort to name calling and ad hominem attacks. That’s when respect dwindles and sarcasm is appropriate. And entertaining, frankly. At least for me.
And in this, I will stand by you, my friend, untethered to whatever is held in the content of my perspectives and observations.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
Jesus f*#k!
Pardon my fransh ...

Let's see what Steph Davis has to say.
This is one of the most soulful, penetrating examples of personal exposure I've ever seen:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 12, 2018 - 12:48pm PT

Buhl and Bonatti are hardly anomalies in the broad spectrum and history of daring male climbers, Mar. Steph, on the other hand, is one of the only women I’ve ever heard of to solo somewhat regularly near her limit, a realm inhabited by lots of male climbers btw.

...one of the only... women...
... lots of male climbers...

^^^^

Comment:

One of a few women, yes...
Lots of male climbers... No... a few of the male climbers... but for sure more male climbers than female climbers.

And I also think that the % of limit pushers among male climbers is higher than the % of limit pushers among female climbers...

The point about there being more freaks of nature among men than among women, I think that point is valid.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 12, 2018 - 01:08pm PT

The point is that in men it isn’t (nearly as) freakish - it’s more natural

I would rather say that among men it is seen more frequently. It's natural to Steph. As solo climbing seemed natural to Catherine Destivelle in the Alps.

From the video - Steph after the death of her husband and some months of not flying:

I was afraid
I opened my arms and
pushed off

The air filled my wings
and it was all there:

Freedom... wonder... pain...
mystery... magic... joy...

I want it all, I choose it all
I choose to fly
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 01:22pm PT
Okay, I've learned her voice is not for everyone. (Ha ha, having tested this recently)
But it's just this small woman, her modest fingerpicking skills, her emotive talent, and her powerful commitment to her ideals.

If you can watch the whole thing, as I have several times, just look at the responses on the faces of those in the audience.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

I do not think it is a stretch to say there are parallels between Joan Baez and Steph Davis.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 12, 2018 - 01:45pm PT

It would be interesting to test her testosterone levels

Once again rather stereotypical and reductionist, don't you think?
Not that stereotypical thinking isn't allowed... and not that there couldn't be a connection to hormones...
Nothing else of interest?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 12, 2018 - 01:55pm PT

Tarbuster.

The audience is in a state of serious enthrallment...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
Every time I turn these on, I cannot put them down until they are finished.
I'm transfixed. Her performance here is Manna.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 02:37pm PT
If women were required to free solo unconsolidated rime ice over loose vertical ground through the night with broken ice tools to save their babies, would they do it?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 04:05pm PT
I'm glad, Kevin, that you breezed by my poetic-rhetorical device just one post overhead there, which was little more than a cheap shot, illustrating my romantic leanings.
I would've been disappointed. Not even so much meant as bait (I'd guess it's been tried before), and in the common sense, not a question and truly rhetorical.

(though entirely hypothetical, I believe, reflective of what women are capable of summoning from themselves, when truly meaningful circumstances call for it)

.......................................

My buddy Jane, did at one time free-solo regularly, though not at her limit. You know, 5.7+ and that kind of jazz. When she once stayed un-roped and did a 5 to 7 pitch 5.9 in Meteora Greece, a climb containing occasionally wiggly cobbles, with an off-width crux, she did so out of spite for some Germans who didn't bring her along on one of their coveted 5.11+ FAs. She bagged the first free-solo that route: Pillar of Dreams, which I had climbed with her prior and she had guided a whole bunch.

Not what I would call chick-brained, as retaliation schemes go, but a testosterone (some women have a dab more than others) fueled expression of what? Angst in response to betrayal?

After that, Stateside once again, she'd regularly do the Bastille Crack, and her husband suggested she knock that sh#t off, if the two of them were truly serious about having a child together.
So she did!

.....................................

I'm sure Ed will be back here to play with you this evening.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

I recall one of the Bangles, maybe Michael Steele, a woman, (née Susan Nancy Thomas), their bass player, or maybe it was Vicki Peterson, guitarist, in an interview once cited Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds as an influence. Lot of good stuff in that interview. Heard it in the mid-80s on KROCK.

Yeah well, I liked the Go Gos too!
(Please, no more cracks about The Monkeys, people)

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 04:40pm PT
Yes, I'm going to pull up something from Don Juan's Reckless Daughter in a bit.
Got it here on vinyl, double album, may have to play all of it to select the tune I want. Not really rocking, more spatial-ethereal.

Nothing but work, work, work over here, I'm telling you!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 05:02pm PT
^^^
Ha ha. Good one.

I played some of her Mingus album on the jazz thread. Twisted is a lot like The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 05:04pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 06:43pm PT
I know, right? You'd think I'd know better, do better, be better.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 07:00pm PT
I was looking for the passage from HUD:
Women just like being around something dangerous part of the time.
From the script:

Lonnie: Lonesome? He [Hud] can get more women than anybody.
Homer: That ain't necessarily much and it ain't necessarily company. Women just like being around something dangerous part of the time. Even Hud can get lonesome once in a while.

..................................

This one's not a bad companion clip, though Jennifer Neal isn't going for that bait:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 12, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
From Sex and War, Malcolm Potts and Thomas Hayden, page 2:
In the pages to come, we will show that for most of history and prehistory, small groups of men who were prepared to attack their neighbors and steal their resources, and who could seduce or coerce women for sex, ended up having more offspring. Women, meanwhile, were more likely to improve their reproductive success – to have more children survive to reproduce themselves – by aligning themselves with successfully violent men rather than by joining raids and risking death themselves.

Footnote on page 2:
In a 2008 study of 28 populations over 300 years, British researchers Rebecca Sear and Ruth Mace found that the early death of a father often had "surprisingly little effect" on their offspring's survival, while a mother's death significantly increased childhood mortality. In evolutionary terms, fathers are more expendable than mothers, and thus can afford to take more risks.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
Just checking in, so:

Heavy Metal = the rockin'est
Free soloing = the climbingest
XY = the badassessest

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 12, 2018 - 10:38pm PT
I'm sure Ed will be back here to play with you this evening.

no, just got back from the Robbins' memorial and not in the mood to feed Kevin's trolling life work of "simplifying" the male/female difference. He likes to hijack every thread that even vaguely touches on this topic and then spam it to death with his opinion.

somethings aren't simple, even if you insist they are.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 09:47am PT
sorry you feel belittled, warbler, don't know how that could happen as I certainly do not intend to belittle you, rather, just argue a point. So don't worry your pretty little head about whether or not I respect your intelligence (but don't forget that while you were pulling down hard routes in the Valley in your youth I was pulling down equivalently hard science in mine, and we both accomplished a respectable reputation in our areas of concentration, I got the Ph.D. for mine, if we're into defining accomplishment, mine intellectual).

the point being that the playing field for women and others has not been level with respect to white-male privilege, you are a white male, and used to having those privileges, and now you are grieving the questioning of those privileges and the advantages they bestow.

my simple point is that if women and others have not been given equal opportunity in whatever area of comparison you'd propose, the records of their accomplishments do not demonstrate anything about "true ability."

your simple theory falls down because your assumption that women would have achieved as much as men if they were able, and since they haven't, you conclude they are not able.

that's a relatively simple point, but comparing women's opportunities to men's one might find that men had many more opportunities, while women did not (and women were more likely to have been discouraged in any of these endeavors).

you have not demonstrated that women have not been disadvantaged (and studies would argue that they have been) while men have not had privilege (which studies would argue that they have).



Rock 'n' Roll is such a strange thing to argue about simply because the variance of subjective opinion, taste in music varies greatly.

I hardly accept your metric of what the best Rock 'n' Roll is, but even if you objectified it... say what rock bands made the most money (or at least produced the most revenue) you have to deal with the idea that the "Record Industry" not only bet on the economic viability of the bands, but actively promoted their vision of Rock 'n' Roll to the audiences they felt had the most resources to spend on their product. That has been traditionally white male teenagers. So obviously the "Record Industry" produced a product that that audience would buy.

It is argued that "Stairway to Heaven" is the "greatest" rock song produced, but it has a very odd theme centered on a stereotype. One can say "it's just a rock song" but then, nothing is accidentally anything in that business.

Accomplishing anything in the music business vaguely resembling "success" takes with financial support of the industry.

Where that is not forthcoming, success is hard to come by regardless of how rad you shred.

You have research that supports your underlying assumption that guy and gal bands enjoyed equal support from the industry?

I think not.

You have research to support that the industry judgement on a band's financial viability is unbiased?

I think not.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 13, 2018 - 11:08am PT

If a woman is brilliant in a profession that is dangerous and she becomes a mother, how old do her children have to be before it is acceptable for her to return to work? This is the question that James Ballard had to face after his wife, the mountaineer Alison Hargreaves, died while climbing K2 seven years ago, when their children were aged four and six.

In May 1995, Hargreaves became the first woman to make it to the summit of Everest alone, unsupported and without any artificial oxygen. She received almost universal praise. "One of the greatest climbs in history," declared the front page of the Times. But, just three months later, having successfully reached the summit of K2, Hargreaves died on the way down - and was criticised in the media for having "left" her two children.

And the criticism was way more harsh than it is when men die during the same circumstances. This is cultural...

Nothing wrong about her climbing ambition or soul as the Warbler wants to frame it...

So, whether the Warbler and feminists like it or not... (these polemical details are really stupid, but I will play the game with the Warbler for a while...)

Not that "don't worry your pretty little head" is any better...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 11:58am PT
I vaguely bristled (raised an eyebrow) at pretty little head also. But the rest of Ed's post was good, as was Kevin's.


The Allison Hargreaves reference is a good one, Marlow.
I was trying to come up with her name/accomplishments and throw her in with Catherine Freer and Steph Davis.

I was never quite sure whether the criticism posthumously leveled at her originated/proliferated more in Europe, or in America.

Slightly off-topic, but from what I can tell, we do a lot more hand wringing in America over parents taking risks than they do in Europe?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 12:20pm PT
You didn’t address my question about how many new pitches have been led first by women in Yosemite.

I did in another post, you might have forgotten, and not only that, I trended the data and predicted when the fraction of FA's put up by men would equal those of women. That's the direction things are going.



Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 07:45pm PT
Bonnie Raitt & John Lee

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Bonnie Raitt and Al Green

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Bonnie & BB King

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Bonnie Raitt, at the end of the piece with Al Green:
Rhythm and blues, soul music, in my opinion ... cuts every single thing ... if you play it for anybody anywhere in the world ...

... they're gonna be tappin' their feet and lookin' to get laid.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 07:53pm PT
I had saved Ed's list to my hard drive, from 2008, retrieved from the Chick History Thread.

I'm guessing this is the same one the statistics come from?

..................................................

Ed Hartouni wrote:

Some Yosemite Valley FAs and FFAs with women team members (not all, I don't know how to resolve "Chris," etc.. in the list... any help would be appreciated...)

76 Degrees in the Shade 5.10c 2001 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Absolutely Free, Left Side 5.9 1970 Jim Bridwell Bev Johnson Mark Klemens
After Six 5.7 1965 Yvon Chouinard Ruth Schnieder
Afterburner 5.11c 1993 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Are You Hard Enough? 5.10d Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Bad to the Bone 5.9+ A4 VI 1984 Jay Smith Lidija Painkiher
Betsy Pinnacle 5.9 1970 Betsy Nelson Rick Sylvester
Big Easy 5.11d 1993 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Birds of a Feather 5.7 1975 Kevin Worrall Jane Wituchki
Blackballed 5.10b 1987 Dan McDevitt Sue Bonovich
Boneheads 5.10b 1999 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Boulderfield Gorge 5.9 1966 Royal Robbins Liz Robbins Mike Dent Victer Cowley
Bourbon Street 5.10c 1993 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Chairman Ted Scraps the Time Machine 5.10a 1987 Greg Murphy Melanie Findling
Chicken Pox 5.8 1972 Steve Wunsch Dianna Hunter
Chips Ahoy 5.12b 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Church Tower, East Arete 5.5 II 1935 Ken Adam Olive Dyer Morgan Harris
Compass Rose 5.10- 1989 Tucker Tech Lynn Wolfe
The Cow, Left 5.8 R 1970 Ken Boche Mary Bomba
The Cracker, Southwest Corner 5.5 1969 Bill Sorenson Ann Rehder
Critical Path 5.11a 1991 Clint Cummins Anne Smith
Diminishing Returns 5.10c 1990 Hal Thompkins Lin Murphy
The Dove 5.8 1975 Kevin Worrall Jane Witucki
Dreams of Thailand 5.11d Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Dromedary - The Hump 1971 Barry Bates Bev Johnson
Dynamic Doubles 5.9 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Dyslexia 5.10d A4 VI 1985 Ellie Hawkins
El Capitan, West Chimney 5.9 1937 Ethel Mae Hill Owen Williams Gordon Patten 1966 Galen Rowell Tom Fender
End of the Line 5.10c 2001 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Energizer 5.11b 1990 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Eura Mura 1983 Knez Franabcek Lidija Painkiher Igor Skamprle
Eye in the Sky 5.10b R 1985 Mark Spencer Shirley Spencer Dan Abbot David Abbot
Falcon 5.10b 1981 Chris Cantwell Larry Zulim Becky Plourd Sue Moore
Fast as a Shark 5.11 1988 Ed Collins Joan Collins Ken Ariza Tucker Tech
Fifty Crowded Variation 5.10a 1987 Clint Cummins Nancy Kerrebrock
Final Decision 5.11b 1981 Anders Lundahl Eva Selim
Fine Line 5.10a 1985 Grant Hiskes Doe DeRoss
Fish Fingers 5.11b R 1985 Jonny Woodward Maria Cranor
Five o'Clock Shadow 5.9 X 1987 Jay Smith Penny Fogel
Fly-Girls 5.11a Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
The Footstool, Right Side 5.4 R 1959 Mark Powell Beverly Powell Bill Feuerer
For Your Eyes Only (Octopussy) 5.9 A3 VI 1988 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Free Press 5.10a 1971 Galen Rowell Sibylle Hechtel
George's Secretary 5.8 1988 George Watson Jim Edmondson Kyle Edmondson Mike Forkash Nancy Beebe
Ginger Snap 5.12b 1992 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
The Girl Next Door, Left Side 5.1 1972 John Bragg Bev Johnson
Golden Needles 5.8 1979 Jim Beyer Janice Linhares
Goodrich Pinnacle, Right Side 5.9 R 1964 Royal Robbins Liz Robbins TM Herbert
Grape Race 5.9 A5 VI 1974 Charlie Porter Bev Johnson
Great Escape 5.11c 1993 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Harding Route 5.7 III 1957 Warren Harding Bea Vogel
Hell's Hollow 5.10a 1985 Ken Ariza Doe DeRoss Nick Arms Mark Carpenter
Holidays 5.8 R/X 1986 Scott Cosgrove Jenny Naquin
Home-Boys 5.11a Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Hoosier's Highway 5.10c R 1974 Steve Shea Molly Higgins Larry Bruce Lou Dawson
Hooter Alert 5.10c Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Horse Play 5.9 A3 VI 1984 Steve Grossman Sue Harrington
The Hundredth Monkey 5.11b 1990 Deanne Gray Rolland Arsons
I Don't Know 5.10a 1990 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
I Don't Remember 5.9 1990 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
The Inconsolable Buttress 5.7 A3 III 1960 Mark Powell Beverly Powell Dave Rearick
Isoceles, Left 5.9 1972 Linda Halverson Rick Sylvester
John's Other Chimney 5.4 A1 II 1953 John Ohrenschall Marry Ann Corthell
Jump for Joy 5.9 R 1967 Yvon Chouinard Joy Herron
Just Do Me 5.10d Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Just for Starters 5.10a 1992 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
The Kids are All Right 5.7 1986 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
Knuckleheads 5.10b 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Kung Pao Chicken 5.10b 1982 Dan Hare Kathy Cassidy
Laughing at the Void 5.9 A3 V 2000 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Le Bachar 5.11b 1982 John Bachar Mike Lichlinski Mari Gingery
Leaning Tower, Traverse 5.5 II 1957 Chuch Wilts Ellen Wilts G.B. Harr
Lonely Dancer 5.10c 1979 Dave Yerian Shary McVoy Bruce Morris
Lower Arch Traverse 5.3 I 1957 Krehe Ritter Mara Unterman Judy Beyers
Lunatic Fringe 5.10c 1971 Barry Bates Bev Johnson
Lunch Ledge Direct (Space Case) 5.8 A4 IV 1961 Yvon Chouinard Wally Reed 1976 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis
Lynnea's Birthday Surprise 5.10a 1986 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Mac Daddy 5.11a 2002 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Marginal 5.9 R 1970 Ken Boche Mary Bomba Joe McKeown
Mass Assault 5.9 1972 Ken Boche Dennis Hennek Judy Sterner Russ McLean Sibylle Hechtel Tim Auger Mike Farrell
Middle Cathedral Rock, Northwest Buttress 5.6 II 1953 Bill Dunmire Marj Dunmire Jack Davis Dale Webster Dick Long Dick Houston
Middle Cathedral Rock, Northwest Face III 5.7 1957 Les Overstreet Jerry Gray George Ewing 1959 Margret Young Steve Roper
Mirror, Mirror Left 5.10b R 1985 Eric Brand Jonell Geller
Moby Dick, Center 5.10a 1963 Herb Swedlund Penny Carr 1963 Frank Sacherer Steve Roper
Mother of the Future 5.11a 1989 Joel Auger Clint Cummins Nancy Kerrebrock
Movin' Like a Stud 5.10d 1978 Pat Timpson Julie Brugger Bob Crawford Dave Anderson
Movin' to Montana 5.8 1992 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
Mr. Pink-eyes 5.11d 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Mud Shark 5.8 1980 Billy Serniuk Charleen Serniuk Jack Dodalou
My Rhombus 5.10a 1986 Dan McDevitt Sue Bonovich
Mystic Mint 5.11b 1992 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Nevada Falls, Left Side 5.6 A4 II 1960 Royal Robbins Lin Ephraim
New Suede Shoes 5.10c Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
No Teats 5.10a 1986 Susan Lilly Tucker Tech
North Dome, South Face Route III 5.7 1957 Mark Powell Wally Reed 1960 Mort Hempel Irene Ortenberger Steve Roper
North Dome, Southwest Face 5.9 1968 Bev Clark Chuck Pratt
The Nose 5.9 C2 VI 5.13b 1958 Warren Harding Wayne Merry George Whitmore 1993 Lynn Hill
Nutcracker 5.8 1967 Royal Robbins Liz Robbins
Nutter Butter 5.12b 1992 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
On the Waterfront 5.9 A5 VI 1986 Steve Bosque Mike Corbett Gwen Schneider
Peter's Out 5.12 1978 Peter Croft Tami Knight
Pigs in Space 5.12 1978 Peter Croft Tami Knight Larry Zulim
Pink Panther 5.11a 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Poker Face 5.10b 1986 Dan McDevitt Sue Bonovich
Polymastia 5.10d 1994 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
Power Failure 5.11a 1975 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis Mark Vallance
Priceless Friends 5.10a 1988 Mike McGrale Urmas Franosch Marlo Finney Marty Lewis
Pringles 5.11b 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Psycho-Betty 5.9 1989 Eric Gompper Linda Gil-Martin
Reality Check 5.10c 1976 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis
Reticent Wall 5.7 A5 VI 1995 Steve Gerberding Scott Stowe Laurie Stowe
Rixon's Pinnacle, South Face 5.8 A2 III 5.11d 1948 Chuck Wilts Ellen Wilts 1974 Tobin Sorenson John Bachar
Royal Cornpad 5.10a 1976 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis
Sailin' Shoes 5.10d 1978 Bruce Morris Dave Austin Chuck Neifield Gary Robbe Peter Thurston Val Lecont
Sargantana 5.9 A5 VI 1997 Pep Mesip Silvia Vidal
Savage Amusement 5.11b 1988 Ed Collins Joan Collins Ken Ariza Tucker Tech
Second Thoughts 5.10a Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Sex Drive 1988 Tucker Tech Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Siberian Swarm Screw 5.10a 1972 Jim Donini Steve Wunsch John Bragg Kevin Bein Bev Johnson
Skinheads 5.10d 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Slingshot 5.12a 1990 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Sloppy Seconds 5.5 1972 Jerry Anderson Elsie Anderson
Sloth Wall 5.7 1972 Steve Miller Jerry Anderson Elsie Anderson
Sorry Poopsie 5.8 1989 Don Reid Susan Reid
Space Case (Lunch Ledge Direct) 5.8 A4 IV 5.10c 1961 Yvon Chouinard Wally Reed 1976 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis
Mt. Starr King, Northwest Face 5.9 II 1970 Ken Boche Mary Bomba
Stephanie's Corner 5.8 1991 Stephanie McCormack Walt Shipley
Strangers in the Night 5.10b 1972 Jim Donini Rab Carrington Bev Johnson Steve Wunsch
Supplication 5.10c 1971 Barry Bates Bev Johnson
The Syllable 5.8 1971 Rick Sylvester Sibylle Hetchel
Sylvester's Meow 5.11a 1986 Rick Sylvester Sue Odom
Teacher's Pet 1988 Dave Yerian Cade Loyd Ken Ariza Merry McGrath-Braun
Thunderhead 5.11d Jim Beyer Janice Linhares 1985 Jonny Woodward Maria Cranor
Tooth or Consequences 5.11b 1986 Charles Cole Lidija Painkiher
Twisted Road VI 2003 Paul Tureki Kristen Kramer Greg Collins
Unagi 5.10c 1988 Clint Cummins Nancy Kerrebrock
Unnamed but Beautiful 5.10c 2001 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Uppity Women 5.10c 1990 Lin Murphy Denise Matenson
Warm Up Crack 5.10a Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Watermelon Rind 5.9 A3 V 1971 John Svenson Sharon Young Kent Stokes Bob Schneider
Waverly Wafer 5.10c 1970 Jim Bridwell Barry Bates Bev Johnson
West Side Story 5.10b 1989 Tucker Tech Sue Harrington
William's Climb 5.10c 1989 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson Rob Kroeckel
Winter of Our Discontent 5.1 1989 Tucker Tech Sue Harrington
Winterlewd 5.10b 1990 Lin Murphy Jane Koski Mia Ongelma
Zoner 5.11b 1985 Mark Spencer Shirley Spencer Floyd Hayes

..............................................

Don't know if it's been updated since, but here it is on the forum:
(The Fish had suggested some corrections)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=53589&msg=675730#msg675730
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 08:03pm PT
When I was looking at submissions on YouTube for Bonnie Raitt, in one of the duets she did with John Lee Hooker, she stated that she has known him since she was 19 years old.
Cool shit!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 08:06pm PT
Bonnie and Nora Jones

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Norah and Anoushka, her half-sister (both daughters of Ravi Shankar)
Norah Jones born Geetali Norah Shankar - March 30, 1979

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Nora and Anoushka with sitar

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 13, 2018 - 08:20pm PT



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwpagb-_Zk0

Anyway, just call me angel in the morning baby.

“Wretches! ye loved her for her wealth and hated her for her pride,
“And when she fell in feeble health, ye blessed her--that she died!
“How shall the ritual, then, be read?--the requiem how be sung
“By you--by yours, the evil eye,--by yours, the slanderous tongue
“That did to death the innocent that died, and died so young?”

Peccavimus; but rave not thus! and let a Sabbath song
Go up to God so solemnly the dead may feel so wrong!
The sweet Lenore hath “gone before," with Hope, that flew beside
Leaving thee wild for the dear child that should have been thy bride--
For her, the fair and debonair, that now so lowly lies,
The life upon her yellow hair but not within her eyes--
The life still there, upon her hair--the death upon her eyes.

“Avaunt! to-night my heart is light. No dirge will I upraise,
“But waft the angel on her flight with a Pæan of old days!
“Let no bell toll!--lest her sweet soul, amid its hallowed mirth,
“Should catch the note, as it doth float up from the damnéd Earth.
“To friends above, from fiends below, the indignant ghost is riven--
“From Hell unto a high estate far up within the Heaven--
“From grief and groan, to a golden throne, beside the King of Heaven.”
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
I'm pretty bad with accuracy where recollections of second and third hand reportage goes ... Who isn't?

But, somewhere, from someone, I heard a vignette about Bonnie Raitt and her bass player, hanging out in a bar, pretty well smashed, having an argument about God knows what and she said to him, and I have to provide a big disclaimer here because it's paraphrased ... but just too damn good to pass up ...

Bonnie said to her bass player:
If you don't knock that sh#t off, next time you're giving me head I'm going to piss all over you!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
that's an old list...
...and I suspect that warbler would demand that we'd have to list all the gal routes put up with the FA team wearing tubesocks and short-shorts next.

zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 13, 2018 - 08:40pm PT
It ain't that pretty at all

I was there with them

It was Ms Raitt talking to Bass player Willie Dixon about Greg "pretty boy" All_man



if he doesn't stop pissing me off, I'm gonna take a hike up to Bass Lake and hire some angels to beat the schitt out of him


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b2/47/9d/b2479da0ab0b6182b1e833a6b0b06a3a.jpg
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
not updated for recent routes
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 08:50pm PT
of course you would
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
So much good music on this thread!
Ed, after your initial run of the usual suspects, you threw up a bunch of girl bands I'd never heard of. Still going through all of it. Very cool.

I came late to the party: nobody tells me anything.
If hardly visible hadn't e-mailed me about it, I never even would've clicked on it!

And after review, in something like the fourth post, if mouse hadn't linked Alice de Buhr's brief YouTube plaintiff, you & Kev likely would've missed out on a lot of sparring!

............

BTW: could you please put up a more current list of the FAs involving women?
I've archived lots of your work and would love to have an updated version.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
of course you'd propose some sort of criteria that could not be measured, and something only you could judge

that is one of the ways such bias is maintained, warbler, well known and well studied

...

what you "think" is true is unproven, now it's your turn, show us your data

what you "suspect" is also unsupported, show us the data

and once again, you are describing your "experience," and you use the adjective "huge" (of course)...
but perhaps your experience isn't where it's at. works for you I know, so what?
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2018 - 09:12pm PT
How bout, "Women have made fewer scientific discoveries than men because they arent as inherently scientific".

Hysterical bias?

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
T Hocking,
This thread is about:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 09:20pm PT
Ursula Marvin, Geologist of the Extraterrestrial, Dies at 96

'But she did not became interested in geology until she was a student at Tufts University, where she majored in history but was required to study science for two years. Biology bored her; geology transformed her.

“Here was a professor talking about mountains, how they form and change, about rivers, lakes, deserts, beaches, dunes and how the earth itself formed and evolved,” she said in the lecture. “I never knew there was such a science.”

Inspired, she asked her geology professor if she could change her major.

He rebuffed her, telling her that she should be learning to cook.'
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2018 - 09:27pm PT
Just a joke.

FA's seem like a poor metric. Historical bias, and a finite set. Women were treated differently in the past. Apparently now, not always much better.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 09:43pm PT
There are ample stories of injustices to men by women also Ed...

They tend to be more in the personal relationship realm

Both sexes have their biases


but you are saying that the it isn't a bias, warbler, you're saying it's Testosterone that makes men better. That's an overly simplistic view.

Playing the victim card here? don't think it will trump anything...
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
Warbler, I understand.

My point was that FA history may be biased by social norms, perhaps like discoveries in science. Also, FA's are limited, and maybe harder to come by over time, especially the 20-30 pitch kind.


zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 13, 2018 - 09:54pm PT
Be careful out there all you testers

Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
Whut? If only I had a time machine, a cordless hammer drill, some lycra, and a grigri. I could have probably squeezed some lines in on swan slab in the 80's Just saying.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2018 - 10:09pm PT
No worries Warbler, again I think we just disagree. With a data set, you may be able to draw conclusions, some even statistacilly significant. Still, data can be biased, and conclusions may only apply to the information at hand. Dudes do have more FAs than women.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 10:19pm PT
That is so cool to hear folks talkin about Fanny! Growing up in Davis Ca, I had the pleasure of knowing soundguy Dave Millington. His sisters June and Jean Millington were the core of the group Fanny. Jean was at one point Married to Earl Slick, David Bowie's guitar player. Their son Lee Madaloni is a very good rock climber and musician from Rocknasium's old days. I hired his first band to play their first gig at our tenth anniversary party. The party also featured "gladiators " on the portable wall. I started gladiators in 1999. Basically two climbers attach to the auto belays. Then they race to the top anything goes....we had some rules like no hanging all body weight from someones extremity in a way that would cause dislocation and no interfering with the opponant's safety gear. Otherwise anything goes. I once climbed the entire sixty feet of pipeworks wall with a routsetter on my back trying to rip me off the wall. Lee Madaloni remains one of the coolest musicians I know. He accompanied his mother Jean and Aunt June in a band called June and Jean Millington's Slammin Babes. I brought them to our 2001 Tamarack Mountain Music Festival. They brought their whole tour with them including Tret Fure, Di Patterson, Joan Armatrading and other women's music hits. We had Jules Graves and Nataly McMaster at that show as well. Quite a tour de force of outstanding women artists. June and Jean championed the show with their incredible confidence and badass slammin funky lady style. As their lyrics state, you my have heard of LA. But they are from Oakland (Oaktown). I found them to be very laid back persomally and super kind and friendly. When I was at Jean's house in Davis, I noticed a picture of Lee as an infant. He was sitting on John Lennons lap. I guess the Babes of Fanny got to know the Beatles pretty well through The Ed Sullivan Show in which both groups were featured. God bless the Millingtons and Madalonis!
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
The taco abides

[Click to View YouTube Video]
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 10:36pm PT
In rock and roll, the Ladies rule. Check out Stevie Nicks doin Sara in 1979 or Rehanna in 1976 live. That woman is my hero. She fricken rocks with grace, power and fury. She never took her clothes off like Madonna, Cher, Hanna Montana or so many other desperate female icons. Stevie Nicks didnt have to. She is incredibly powerful in ways no man ever could be. Most folks dont know that Stevie actually wrote Fleetwood Macs most popular songs. It makes me sad that so many modern women think that trying to become like men will empower them. Stevie Nicks embodies feminine goddess power like no other artist. That is part of what I like about Di Patterson and June and Jean. They are fricken badass and powerful and unleashed. Yet they are feminine and beautiful and have alot of love for men. I think that true feminism embraces the beauty, grace, power, sanctity, strength, glory, responsibility, pain and dignity of being a woman. Its not about becoming a man. Why would a woman, stronger, wiser and infinitely more desirable than man want to yield her power to become a mere male?
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2018 - 10:42pm PT
Because they're free to do whatever the f*#k they want.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 10:56pm PT
Had the pleasure of working with Bonnie Raitt at the Headwaters Forest Protest in Scotia California. 9000 people staged one of the Nations largest mass arrests in history. The cops ran out of plastic cuffs. Our non violent direct action went on all summer. Back at the legislators office in Eureka, the Humbolt County Sheriff and his buddies were pepper spraying our friends in the eyes. The video released to the public was edited as part of the settlement with EPIC, our legal arm of Earth First. The original video which was not released I got to see, being an organizer. The cops boarded up the office windows with plywood so noone protesting outside could see what they were doing. Then the abuse started. The HC sheriff deputy was clearly sexually arroused by the suffering of his victim as he sprayed her with pepper spray and rubbed it in her eyes with q tips while rubbing her face against his groin. It was decided in the settlement process that if the public saw what he had done the cop would have probably been killed by somebody.

We were in a terrible battle to wrestle the Headwaters Forest away from Junkbond king Charles Hurwitz who had bought Pacific Lumber. He didnt have the money to buy the company. He illegally leveraged the company by buying it with money he borrowed against their own assets. He liquidated the loggers pensions and started chopping despite six injunctions in Federal court forbidding it. So we blocked their access to the forest. We put our bodies between the dozers and the trees. Some people sat in cars on their roads. Organizers would pour rebar loops into concrete on the road. Then the sitters would drive up in a car with holes cut in the floor. Next they would remove the wheels and drop the car on the ground, handcuffing themselves to the rebar through the floor. The car could not be moved. But the engine ran so the could run the heater and listen to the radio or flash the lights to signal other protesters when they were being assulted by cops.

I was privileged to work with Judy Bery and Daryl Cherny. I met her after the Feds planted a bomb in her car and blew her up. She and Daryl survived. I watched over Judy's kids while she crossed the line to be handcuffed. This 5'1" gentle woman was one of the kindest and most powerful people I have ever met. To me she was like Ghandi. Judy died of colon cancer two years later. The US supreme court ruled that the federal authorities were responsible for her death and obstruction of justice and awarded the Bery estate $5,000,000 after her death. See "Who Bombed Judy Bery." That was a time when strong willed women taught non violence and put their own lives on the line for justice. I watched Bonnie sing "Make Me an Angel" a-capella with her dad and brother at Scotia. We backed two flatbed trucks into each other and covered them with plywood. The Clan Dyken's sound system and a generator and we were in business. My best friend Mike Gerell ran the board. It was the most beautiful a capella I ever heard. Bonnie was easygoing and very friendly. What a great lady!

We all salute the incredible victory of Julia Butterfly who lived more than a year in a tree to save it from Hurwitz. I watched the film as helicopter loggers tried to kill her by smashing big logs into her tree while she clung to life. When she came to whole Earth Festival as one of our speakers she was totally inspiring! For some reason, these incredible women like Judy, Bonnie and Julia were able to organize and mobilize thousands of people to fight for justice in ways noone ever had before. People risked their lives. I have pictures of hundreds of armed riot cops and CHP lined up to bash our skulls. And we did it without violence. These women inspired us to take a beating but not to break ranks at all cost. Not one assult was committed by any protestor that entire summer.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Mar 13, 2018 - 10:57pm PT
Im also a big fan of "Pussy Riot"
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 11:33pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 13, 2018 - 11:34pm PT
Thanks for the stories! That's good stuff, chainsaw.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Mar 14, 2018 - 12:01am PT
Dude, nice Joan Armatrading posts! I added some stuff by edit to the headwaters story.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 14, 2018 - 12:21am PT
Pepper spray, Q-tips, rebar, handcuffs, car bombs, more handcuffs, tree sitting under violent siege, and nonviolence: now that's full value, fully committed living!
I knew a woman who was a Weatherman activist, but those gutsy, risk-laden, over the top, violent experiences aren't my stories to tell, and she probably wouldn't either (and didn't).
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 14, 2018 - 04:29pm PT
Flip liked 'em.

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Johnny liked 'em.

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Saturday night I was downtown
Working for the FBI
Sitting in a nest of bad men

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Oh Honey!

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 14, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
7 to 12-year-old shred head fembots will clip yer bangs for ya, stat!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

 Just wait & see: someday one of these prodigies is going to tire of noodling around on the guitar, strap on a Pokémon chalk bag, and solo Free Rider.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 14, 2018 - 09:22pm PT
You know, zB, Long Cool Woman in a Black Dress by the Hollies has to be one of the top 10 examples of all time for how rock 'n roll should make a person feel.

plus, Plus, your riff on the Ms Raitt talking to Bass player Willie Dixon about Greg "pretty boy" All_man passage just cracked me up!
if he doesn't stop pissing me off, I'm gonna take a hike up to Bass Lake and hire some angels to beat the schitt out of him

[Click to View YouTube Video]
^^^
I like this stuff because it was catchy and slickly produced.
(So were Teen Beat magazine and Barbie Dolls, what's a listener to do ...)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 14, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
LONG COOL WOMAN (In a Black Dress)
The Hollies

Saturday night I was downtown
Working for the FBI
Sittin' in a nest of bad men
Whiskey bottles piling high

Bootlegging boozer on the west side
Full of people who are doing wrong
Just about to call up the DA man
When I heard this woman sing a song

A pair of 45's made me open my eyes
My temperature started to rise
She was a long cool woman in a black dress
Just-a 5'9, beautiful, tall
With just one look I was a bad mess
'Cause that long cool woman had it all

[Instrumental Interlude]

I saw her heading to the table
Like a tall walking big black cat
When Charlie said I hope that you're able boy
'Cause I'm telling you she knows where it's at
Then suddenly we heard the sirens
And everybody started to run
A-jumping out of doors and tables
When I heard somebody shootin' a gun
Well the DA was pumping my left hand

And a-she was a-holding my right
Well I told her don't get scared
'Cause you're gonna be spared
I've gotta be forgivin' if I wanna spend my living
With a long cool woman in a black dress
Just a 5'9 beautiful tall
Yeah, with just one look I was a bad mess
'Cause that long cool woman had it all
Had it all
Had it all
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 15, 2018 - 07:41am PT
hahaha
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 15, 2018 - 07:43am PT
This could be a good read:

Amazon says:
In 1937, climbing mountains was thought to be an activity reserved for men.
Ruth Dyar Mendenhall broke that barrier to become one of California's first and most important women mountain climbers.

The letters collected in Woman on the Rocks:
The Mountaineering Letters of Ruth Dyar Mendenhall (Spotted Dog Press 2007), edited by Valerie Mendenhall Cohen, document her amazing fifty-year mountaineering career.

Katie Ives' review for the AAC:
http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/12200845800/Woman-on-the-Rocks-The-Mountaineering-Letters-of-Ruth-Dyar-Mendenhall
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 15, 2018 - 11:58am PT
Roy, the Ruth Mendenhall book looks like a worthy read, for sure.

Katie wrote a pretty fair review, too, with some interesting quotes.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 15, 2018 - 12:42pm PT
I think it goes deeper than that, mouse.
I was hoping something of this would've been reflected in some of the reviews, but I had this conversation with Steve Grossman about the book yesterday.

Apparently, before the war, and somewhat in contradiction to what you read in reviews of this book, it will describe this prewar era as a time when women were much more involved in the mountains and mountaineering. The apogee of that was Rosie the Riveter, who became an icon of women's empowerment, exemplified by their being swept from the kitchen and into the manufacturing effort during the war.


So, unless I misinterpreted what Steve had said, it's possible he was talking about the greater history of which he was already aware, but I believe this book will talk about how during the postwar era, women were somehow put back in their place, so to speak.

There is some sense in this if you just review in your head all the pictures you've seen historically, namely from the 20s and 30s, of women involved in mountain club stuff, prior to the introduction of belays & more aggressively roped and protected climbing, more in the sense of general mountaineering, such as in Bob Godfrey and Dudley Chelton's book: CLIMB, where you see in fact large groups of women, with and without men, all over the flanks of the Flatirons.

If you think of the Chautauqua movement, which I believe happened just after the turn-of-the-century, where people were encouraged to get into the mountains and the arts, the idea goes that women were much more involved in this, and that after World War II, all of that changed. And you know, the Chautauqua movement itself was somewhat, if not mostly dismantled, one of the remnants being the Chautauqua Park and dining hall above Boulder Colorado.

Eldorado Canyon used to have a ton more hardened infrastructure, conveyances (see: funicular) and a hotel on the side of the canyon, at one time people were much more encouraged to get into nature, notwithstanding with some creature comforts to help along the movement. As Kevin has said, climbing gyms are a much more amenable environment to many women in terms of their interest in climbing. And clearly more socially focused, as was the Chautauqua movement. Something to be said for this. I don't know if I need to dig it up, but I was watching a climbing video centered on women recently, and one of the women said one of the things she likes most about climbing is the social element, something which Kevin has also indicated before.

We are NOT talking: rope, rack, and the shirt on your back here.
And YES, many women like their creature comforts. My wife is way more amenable to a long day in the mountains if she can return home, versus sleeping on the ground or in a tent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chautauqua
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funicular

The cover of a 1917 promotional brochure:


I'll be excited to get this Ruth Dyer Mendenhall book and see if there's an explication of any of this, though I think it is more focused on the spare and sparse aspects of a woman doing technical climbing, with minimal means, and in the rough and wild, as indicated in the reviews.

I don't think it's necessarily going to refute what's been said in this thread. But it might open our eyes to the general proclivity of women to be involved in mountain activities, not necessarily technical climbing per se, and there may be some truth to this idea of a cultural renaissance in respect to the empowerment of women which reached its height during the war effort, from which our culture retreated.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 15, 2018 - 03:23pm PT
Ha ha: and they're going to get it!
If Outside Online magazine's ad campaign has any sway, or is any kind of indicator:


So move over, Rover!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 15, 2018 - 03:48pm PT
And after that fine announcement ...

Every guy needs a little Kim Gordon/Sonic Youth in his life ... part of the time:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

I WANNA BE YOUR DOG

So messed up, I want you here
In my room, I want you here
Now we're gonna be face-to-face
And we lay right down in my favorite place
Now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Well, come on
Now I'm ready to close my eyes
But now I'm ready to close my mind
And now I'm ready to feel your hand
And lose my heart on the burning sand
Now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Well, come on

Songwriters: Kim Gordon / Lee M. Ranaldo / Thurston Joseph Moore
Freezer Burn / I Wanna Be Your Dog lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group


[Click to View YouTube Video]

BULL IN THE HEATHER

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty
Tell me that you want to hold me
Tell me that you want to bore me
Tell me that you gotta show me
Tell me that you need to slowly
Tell me that yr burning for me
Tell me that you can't afford me
Time to tell yr dirty story
Time f'are turning over and over
Time f'are turning four leaf clover
Betting on the bull in the heather
Ten, twenty, thirty, forty
Tell me that you want to scold me
Tell me that you a-dore me
Tell me that you're famous for me
Tell me that yr gonna score me
Tell me that you gotta show me
Tell me that you need to sorely
Time to tell yr love story
Time f'are turning over and over
Time f'are turning four leaf clover
Betting on the bull in the heather

Songwriters: Kim Gordon / Lee M. Ranaldo / Steven Jay Shelley / Thurston Joseph Moore
Bull in the Heather lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group


[Click to View YouTube Video]

DRUNKEN BUTTERFLY

Smile like a sun, back over time
Crazy for you, pleasure is mine
I love you, I love you, I love you, what's your name?
I love you, I love you, I love you, what's your name?
You're coming through, even it up
Going too far, try understand
I love you, I love you, I love you, what's your name?
I love you, I love you, I love you, what's your name?
Whisper, kiss your ear, I'll tell you what I fear
Whisper the kisses in your ear, I'll tell you what I fear
Come on home, just ain't fair
Name of rock 'n' roll, where love dies
Couldn't find a soul, tell it like it is
Deep down inside, drunken butterfly
I love you, I love you, I love you, what's your name?
I love you, I love you, I love you, what's your name?
I love you, I love you, I love you, what's your name?
I love you, I love you, I love you, what's your name?

Songwriters: Kim Gordon / Lee M. Ranaldo / Steven Jay Shelley / Thurston Joseph Moore
Drunken Butterfly lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group

.........................

[Click to View YouTube Video]

^^^
Now about two thirds through this interview (37 min.), and it's like augering into quicksand. Intentionally slack, and with far less effect than achieved in the music.
Probably going to read the Mendenhall book first and save the Kim Gordon Girl in a Band book, which is limply supported here, for never. Or maybe a little bit later than that.

That's probably part and parcel to the intended anti-commercialism affectation.

... And after finishing the 67 min. interview, well, asking an anarchic artist to give a structured interview is, you know, um ... I only have myself to blame.
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Mar 15, 2018 - 04:32pm PT
I Wanna Be Your Dog was written by The Stooges, not Sonic Youth.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 15, 2018 - 04:52pm PT
I know, what's up with that?
They both copyrighted it.

The Stooges attribution for I Wanna Be Your Dog:

Songwriters: David Alexander / James Osterberg / Ronald Asheton / Scott Asheton
I Wanna Be Your Dog lyrics © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc, BMG Rights Management US, LLC

Probably an inside joke between the bands. Or an outside joke for the fans?
I do see only one difference: Sonic Youth wrote sand, while The Stooges wrote sands.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 15, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
That entire Cream Royal Albert Hall performance from 2005 is so goddamned good!
If your full collection of music videos were to be limited to three items, it should make the cut.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 15, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 15, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 15, 2018 - 08:37pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 15, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
originalpmac

Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
Mar 15, 2018 - 10:51pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Mar 16, 2018 - 12:47am PT
Yes, everyone knows that Joplin was pretty good, but, if we're really being honest, her stuff just doesn't compare to this example of what testosterone (uh, maybe) can help to create:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 16, 2018 - 08:45am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 16, 2018 - 09:02am PT
Yikes!
T Hock, that incessant high-pitched shriek you have in your ears (me too).
https://www.amazon.com/DownBeats-Reusable-Fidelity-Hearing-Protection/dp/B00A3Z44R2?th=1

 I wear one of these ^^^ in my right ear permanently, because I can't take any transient loud claps, bangs, or overly sharp noises. (Clapping in a small room and screaming kids are the worst)

I have partial loss of hearing in my left ear, so no problem there!

No worries, these plugs won't generally interfere with your tinnitus experience, it will just keep on faithfully squealing along even with your hearing totally blocked, because that's not related so much to external inputs, although it can get worse if some unusually offensive external clang puts you over the top.

 For that, like when I'm sitting in my home office, which is adjacent to our kitchen, and I'm dick-tating with my voice control software onto Supertopo while my wife is banging & clanging pots and pans, I wear these:

https://www.amazon.com/Bose-QuietComfort-Acoustic-Cancelling-Headphones/dp/B00YSQBRZE/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1521217341&sr=8-15&keywords=bose+noise+headphones+cancelling
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 16, 2018 - 10:15am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 16, 2018 - 10:15am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 16, 2018 - 11:45am PT
Watching John Belushi look deft on his feet as he does at 1:45 just busts me up!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Mar 16, 2018 - 12:24pm PT
If you're up for novelty, Japanese girls have fun here with rock 'n roll, covering The Ventures & The Animals:

(this is what happens when you give a guy some free time and unlimited access to YouTube)

[Click to View YouTube Video]

(^^^College talent contest winners? Local phenoms? World beating wonders?
Regardless of skill or gender, to me they're just people enjoying the experience of making music)


Not that I know much, but Tomoko seems to show an even better feel for the surf rock genre, and the guitar:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 11, 2018 - 05:59pm PT
In honor of locker's exit from TacoTown, from the ethers I've hailed Gretchen Menn, the lead guitarist from Zepparella.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 11, 2018 - 07:27pm PT
Nice gesture, Roy.

How about a little sideways love for the late Warbler, speaking of "miss-creants"?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 11, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
Ha ha, Brian!
That's a peach!

Bruce Hawkins used to call us climbers: miscreants.

Having spoken with Warbler, I'd say the bet is good he's just on furlough, and will be back to dust off the plate for us soon enough!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jun 13, 2018 - 09:32pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2018 - 11:51pm PT
You made me do it Tarbaby. Gotta play the Charo card.


[Click to View YouTube Video]

If you have to know, my mom turned me on to her.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jun 14, 2018 - 08:16am PT
OMG! I knew Charo was a cutup, but I had completely forgotten she could shred!
Turns out she trained under Segovia. Well done, Jim Clipper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charo
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 14, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
Not Victoria Spivey, no Dylan harmonica

13 years old (probably only 12 at the time)

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jun 14, 2018 - 07:19pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jun 17, 2018 - 06:58pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

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Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 18, 2018 - 07:58pm PT

Frazey Ford. My new favorite.
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Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2018 - 12:29am PT
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