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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 27, 2018 - 07:02pm PT
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The rock is conglomerate. That is an introductory enigma.
How do so many water-rounded rocks get piled up together?
A reasonable explanation can be found by looking at what Wikipedia has to say about Meteora, in Greece.
As I understand it, deposition is a slow process. Somewhere I learned that sediment at the bottom of oceans accumulates at a rate of about one centimeter per century. Over geologic time, that can add up to a lot.
However, where rivers run in to the ocean, material transported by the river may accumulate at a faster rate.
In Ontario I was fascinated by the limestone cliffs of the Niagara Escarpment. The little fossils at the base of the cliff could be millions of years older than the little fossils at the top, if my one centimeter per hundred years is anything close to right.
However, in a conglomerate of large pebbles like Meteora or Maxwell, the rocks at the bottom may be almost the same age as the rocks at the top, in geologic time.
bottom
top
I will let you know when I find a dinosaur egg. Pretty sure I spotted a mummified hatchling.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 27, 2018 - 10:08pm PT
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That looks a lot like much of the Olympic Mts - olympian in their chossitude although,
to be more accurate, I guess ‘pillow lava’ is a different clause in the Faustian bargain.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2018 - 08:15am PT
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Other mysteries, to me:
Why the big holes?
Why are some lined up while others are not?
So far, the bolts I have hung from and the holds I have pulled on have been secure. The base of the main cliff has large sections that look ready to peel away, and down below there are quite large boulders. Pretty far down below.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 28, 2018 - 08:19am PT
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So far, the bolts I have hung from and the holds I have pulled on have been secure.
Obviously! 🤡
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2018 - 08:25am PT
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You sure those bolts arn't just punched into a coupl'a ol' igneous rox and will pop out when body weight is taken?
A little to one side of those bolts:
Much of the area is untrammelled. Very little sign of climbers. A lot of sign of deer. In looking around I often reassure myself by thinking that if deer came up this way, I can probably get down it.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2018 - 08:29am PT
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Reilly, not completely obvious.
I rap down and auto-belay up. I usually back up anchors with a rope tied to a tree. I don't know who placed the bolts, and the guide does say that there is loose stuff.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 28, 2018 - 08:33am PT
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not completely obvious.
True, I was going to add that perhaps you were posting from hospital,
but I don’t think of you as a troll.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Feb 28, 2018 - 09:43am PT
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Andy, while you're there, perhaps you could visit Eric's grave. At the Anglican church (Saint Mary's) on SSI.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2018 - 11:23am PT
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Yes, Anders.
I only recently was told and will visit next time we are over there.
We currently spend 2 weeks in W Van and then 2 on SSI
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2018 - 11:25am PT
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Hey, thanks for the info, Dingus!
I am grateful for the word 'cobbles' which is what I was needing.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Feb 28, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
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clode
Trad climber
portland, or
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Feb 28, 2018 - 02:20pm PT
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In geologic terms, conglomerate is a sedimentary rock, comprised of sediments ranging in size from small clay-sized particles, to boulders, feet across, with the predominant grain size typically in the relatively large (i.e., cobbles to boulders) size.
Think of loose, gravel pit material, held together with some form of "glue". The key to whether this rock type is chossy or climbable, lies in the "glue". The Troutdale Formation, near Portland Oregon, is an indurated, or "glued" gravel, in which small, clay particles, mixed in with the larger particles, holds the material together. The bond between the clay and larger gravel particles is strong enough for the formation to maintain vertical cliffs or outcrops, but weak enough so that trying to climb on it will rip and tear it apart (i.e., you'll fall).
By contrast, the rock in the New York Gunks, is a conglomerate where the particle sizes are more pebble size, than boulder size. The reason it is great for climbing is that the "glue" is quartz, which has a relatively much stronger bonding power than clay.
(Your friendly neighborhood geologist. My Master's Thesis was on the Troutdale Formation, and I've climbed in the Gunks and seen the rock up close and personal).
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 28, 2018 - 02:45pm PT
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BJ's linked geologic map
http://www.empr.gov.bc.ca/Mining/Geoscience/PublicationsCatalogue/OpenFiles/2009/Documents/2009-11/OF2009-11.pdf
shows several formations on Mt. Maxwell.
KB at the summit (Baynes Peak)
DN to the northwest
Dg contact to the southwest
However, the close up photos of the rock look similar to what we have at the Pinnacles National Park, which I have heard called breccia or tuff -
a bunch of volcanic clast stones in a matrix of ash. So the layer
DMg/DMt may also be present (it's on the mountain to the south).
But DN and DMg/DMt may look similar to a climber....
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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It's definitely not breccia or tuff. It's a thick layer of sedimentary conglomerate. The bed runs all the way from the Chuckanut Mts near Bellingham thru the San Juans and up to near Nanaino... interrupted by a couple of folds. Several generations of UBC geologists have mapped it at field school.
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Jeff Thomson
Sport climber
BC
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I really enjoyed reading this thread. Saltspring Island is my only experience climbing on this kind of rock. I really enjoyed it in a perverse sort of way. Seriously though the 2 pitch 10 - something on the main wall was one of my all time favourites. Maybe it was the location, which was beautiful, or that it was my 20th anniversary get away (yes thats where we went), but either way, I thought it was great and I'd go back in a heart beat.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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The holes are tafoni - google it. The holes line up because of the consistency of the weathering properties of individual layers in the sandstone/conglomerate. It's thought that salt crystallization plays an important role in the weathering that creates tafoni.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2018 - 06:52pm PT
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All interesting.
From BJ's link above:
The Extension Formation has been interpreted to include high-energy deposition in deeper marine submarine canyon and fan facies in northern areas of Nanaimo Group, and shallow marine to coastal to braided fluvial depositional environments in the Nanaimo area where coal is present. This rather wide range of depositional environments seems a bit odd as a single formation, but my grasp of the Nanaimo Formations is limited.
I notice that geologists often sound tentative, an admirable tone to use for events that happened so long ago, often involving forces far outside our direct experience. Does high-energy deposition mean a submarine slide?
The KB which BJ earlier directed me to is the Benson or Comox formation. It is the deepest named layer of the Nanaimo Group. Whether the conglomerate of the Comox Formation was deposited in a marine environment or not is unsettled, I think:
The Nanaimo Group begins arbitrarily about 90 million years ago and ends abruptly with the strike of the large meteor or comet 65 million years ago.
When I divide the 4 km thickness of the Nanaimo group by the 25 million years it represents, I get a deposition rate of 1.6 cm per century.
edit:
source of the images above
https://www.uvic.ca/science/seos/assets/docs/PenderFT13.pdf
I wonder if the large holes in the cliffs could be places where gas pockets formed.
My own history with Maxwell goes back at least to 1994 when our kids went to a summer camp below it.
How Maxwell looked in 1994
We may have visited when we were living in Seattle between 1979 and '87.
Seattle climber Jon Nelson lived on Salt Spring for 2 or 3 years and climbed on Maxwell.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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If one hand-drilled a bolt there, would it be necessary to use Maxwell's silver hammer?
People hang-glide from those cliffs, or somewhere on the island anyway.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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The large holes are NOT gas pockets, they're produced by subaerial weathering.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
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People hang-glide from those cliffs, or somewhere on the island anyway.
I can check the Maxwell final plan for you:
Rock-climbing is No No No whereas as bouldering is No No Yes, meaning that bouldering will be allowed in specially designated areas. I am not sure whether this plan ever got out of the planning stage.
Thanks, kpinwalla2. I hadn't seen your first post when I was composing the long one below it. I have now looked at a few of the links as to how such pockets form.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Is that an ophiolite that I see?
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Fossil Rock is some sort of igneous conglomerate, definitely cobble climbing. Yes, the bolts here always make me a little anxious.
Pinto Rock is on a ridge top high in the Southern Cascades, sort of equidistant from Rainier, Adams, and St. Helens. More of the same igneous conglomerate, but with some real boulders embedded. There's been a bunch of activity here in recent years, some pretty moderate multi pitch routes. Not my photo, pilfered from a friend.
Maybe BJ has good geological info on this stuff.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2018 - 07:26am PT
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Off White has jogged my memory. Old friend Bryan Burdo spoke about finding conglomerate outcrops south and west of Rainier, I think.
edit:
Which Randle agrees with, after looking at the map.
And Fossil Rock is a little further north, west of Rainier.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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That was probably Pinto Rock, its the one with the road at the base. There's also Kirk and Shark rocks, but they're hiking affairs. Some years ago (like 15?) I was picking huckleberries in the area and scoped out Pinto Rock. It had a number of 5.easy scary looking unprotected routes listed in the brown Beckey guide, and one new looking bolted modern route on the very south end. Never figured out who put that in, but Bryan Burdo, energizer bunny incarnate, is a good candidate. I know it wasn't Yoder et al. Some of that circle, notably Brenden Sullivan, is who's been active there of late, putting up maybe a dozen routes.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2018 - 07:42am PT
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Bryan was looking around in the course of restoring his health from a combination of tendonitis and chronic fatigue, if I remember. He said the area was good for walking and exploring.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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BJ, funny you mention the Eocene sandstone, I've got an outcrop of Tenino Sandstone in my yard with 30 some routes on it. Yes, digression from the original post, sorry all, but if you could send me a link to the stuff you referred to I'd appreciate it.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2018 - 04:18pm PT
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No need for anyone to be sorry. The OP already opened the door to digression by using the word 'enigma.'
Maxwell is an enigma, though hopefully not as hazardous an enigma as Mount Garfield (a la Beckey).
Some good photos from Michael Levy:
http://www.flatearthphoto.com/photos/photos-2/
An account of an ascent in 1922, or was it 1859? The writing recalls an earlier era.
http://www.beyondnootka.com/articles/maxwell.html
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
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The ELMS historical articles in your link are a great resource. TFPU
Welcome, but let me be clear; most of this is a mystery to me. Maybe it is true that all who wander are not lost, but I am not sure where I am.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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A single voyage up Black Elvis will set you straight laddie. A mind clearing mantle at the top for the sake of clarity. Talk to Off if you venture anywhere near Tenino while south of the border on I5 close to Olympia and you can catch my drift. Hercules you will be...
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2018 - 07:32am PT
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a mind clearing mantle
Is that what the holes are for?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
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Andy are you goofin' on Elvis?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2018 - 08:21pm PT
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A few people live in Burgoyne Bay.
This thread may become rambling and forgetful.
Did I mention that Jon Nelson lived on Salt Spring for 2 or 3 years and climbed with Randy Atkinson, there?
As an Index new router that ties back to Clint Cummins' participation. In a digressive rambling sort of way.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
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Nicely said, Jim!
And I'm not factoring in the Independently Wealthy...
I hope to tell you about John, soon.
Our nearest neighbours are Ken and Sharon Tara. They are good neighbours to have. He does excavating. He did some for Randy. They raise and sell beef and pork.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
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No doubt you have discovered the channel ridge trail network, highly recommended for a nice late winter ramble. My understanding is that to some extent its been ravaged by a high-end subdivision put in with no real regard for long term aquifer capacity
I think that trail system came up in conversation, once, and there may be a way to walk to it from the south end where we are.
I have not discovered much, yet, and a lot of what I have found only raises more questions.
The guidebook by Gus Oliveira has been helpful. I now know the Maxwell Bluffs and have been to the lower tier bolted routes and the base of the main cliffs. I have had no luck locating the Quartzite Crag mentioned in the guide. A process of elimination is underway. Not many hiding places left.
Randy has also not found the Quartzite Crag, though he says he spoke to Gus about it. It may be on private land. It is said to have one bolted route.
Randy mentioned a quartzite band, and sure enough the geological maps show one under the conglomerate of Maxwell. Next time I was out I noticed that the outcrops in the lovely open slopes south of Maxwell were not conglomerate.
One thing I did discover:
Foweraker (1974) considered the annual available recharge to the bedrock aquifer(s) on Mayne Island from precipitation as 25.4 mm (1-inch) or about 3 percent, based on an average annual precipitation of 838 mm (33 inches). As a similar climate and bedrock environment exists for Saltspring Island, the same recharge rate of 25.4 mm (1-inch) was utilized on a regional scale in the 1977 report and in this report.
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wsd/plan_protect_sustain/groundwater/library/saltspring/saltspring.html
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2018 - 07:14pm PT
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Thanks for the follow-up, Greg. I like it.
For some reason memory offers up that Mr. Smaill worked in water in some capacity for the government in Nanaimo.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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If you believe there's nothing up his sleeve, then nothing is cool.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2018 - 09:05am PT
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The Salt Spring Rock Climbs guidebook has a "Quartzite Crag" below and south of the conglomerate bluffs.
According to the geological maps the layer under the Maxwell conglomerate is granite and granodiorite.
Outcrops near the Girlfriend trail on the south side of Maxwell look like this:
Here is a corner of one of the lovely Garry Oak slopes. A conglomerate boulder has traveled to get here and the prevailing rock type shows down and left.
There is nearby rock that looks like quartz. To a layperson.
edit:
I'm aware that quartzite is metamorphosed sandstone, where the sand may have originally been quartz. My main experiences with it were the Gunks and Devil's lake.
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Paul_in_Van
Trad climber
Near Squampton
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Hey MH2 and all,
Glad to see you are finding out about SSI climbing. I worked with Gus, Pete and Mike for a while a number of years ago climbing the stuff they had put up and doing a few FFA along the way. Most of the people that were climbing alot have moved on or away. I don't see many people out when I am over there visiting family and getting on the rock here and there. Mike is still living there, but got out of climbing and Gus, Sam and Pete moved away.
The guidebook (there is a second edition) details pretty much everything that has been opened.
Interesting that the land use seems to eliminate climbing from the park. Not sure of the politics there, but could be a push to keep bolts out perhaps? Could be NIMBY action going on as well.
On the subject of the rock quality, it definitely ranges from pretty solid to barely hanging on. I have found that you can tell from the weathering which end of the range you will be playing in. White is bad, grey and weather worn is likely ok.
Also agree the Buns in the Oven (BIO) is one of the best climbs there, just fun climbing, solid rock and an awesome place to be.
If you have questions about climbing on SSI, feel free to ping me.
Climb safe
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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I believe you can find some fun bouldering at Ruckle too although it's greenschist or some crap like that iirc and has the odd exploding hold when weighted above the wave splash zone
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Paul_in_Van
Trad climber
Near Squampton
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Regarding the quartzite crag, I'll have to check the guide when I get home. My recollection is that it is under Maxwell on the S side. Access from the wineries on Fullford-Ganges Road kinda area.
There is a hit for this on thecrag.com, only route there is Holy Smoke 5.9.
If I can't find it then I can call a couple people and see how to get there (though it is possible that you have to cross private property to get there or it is on private property, so you might not be able to get there or may have to ask permission).
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
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Thank you, Paul.
I am not in a hurry to find everything out. There are no signs in the area that say anything about climbing. I hope it stays that way.
One mystery that would be good to clear up a little is the raptor nesting. The guidebook I have shows a crag called The Amphitheater as closed for falcon nesting, but that is probably not current. I suspect that there aren't resources to check on falcons like there are for Squamish and that it may be best to just stay off the rocks during the early part of the climbing season. Or it may be that the falcons nest elsewhere. I think they prefer small ledges and there aren't many such in evidence on the faces I have looked at.
I met a trail runner named Dave from Squamish on Maxwell. He had done some local climbing and told me about another person who had more current info on the situation. Michael Levy managed to put me in touch with Nigel and he was happy to get together with me next time I am over there.
Buns In The Oven had a start too hard for me. I moved to the other line just right of it. I expect to figure out the start to BIO eventually. No chalk to guide me and I am not tuned in to pebble holds, yet. They are quite solid, though.
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Paul_in_Van
Trad climber
Near Squampton
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Hey MH2;
looked at the guide. Seems like the quartzite crag is in the area I suggested, but apparently there is access from the top. Perhaps this avoids the private land issue? No further details at this time. If you are serious about going there, then let me know and I can reach out to a few folks to see what the deal is.
Have you tried the bouldering up from Burgoyne Bay at the base of Maxwell? Is a nice small hike and very cool to hang out in the forest and boulders and such. If I am climbing alone, I go here rather than setup a top rope. Landings are pretty good (as long as you are thinking about it) and the holds for the most part are solid.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2018 - 04:58pm PT
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I am quite impressed by the Burgoyne Bay boulders, Paul. My two visits have been in wet cold weather but it should be great once the hotter days come.
I would be glad for anything you can tell me. The messaging over SuperTopo probably no longer works. I can be reached at
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2018 - 07:59pm PT
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Raptor update, etc.
I've seen a peregrine. About 10 metres from me on an outcrop. Did not seem to mind me.
I've seen the randomly assembled sticks of peregrine nests inside the large cavities (tafoni), but no signs of recent occupancy.
I met a birder in the meadows below Maxwell. He told me that peregrines would not be shy about letting me know if I got too near a nesting site of theirs. He said they would make a lot of noise and might swoop toward me. I thought, 'sure, okay.'
Then I was up at the top of a face and noticing a bright orange streak in the waters of Burgoyne Bay below. Then I noticed an eagle circling higher. Cool photo on the way, I thought.
As I was taking the camera out another movement caught my eye. I saw a small bird quickly rising far above the eagle. Then it shot downwards. The eagle did a roll and took off away from the cliff.
I learned that I did not want to risk a peregrine diving at me. Made me think of a charge by a grizzly. You don't want to find out if it's a bluff or not.
The orange streak in the bay was noctiluca scintillans according to the paper.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2018 - 08:00pm PT
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I am adopting the SSI ethos and keeping my mouth shut about the climbing. But I am doing it on mere 60 million year old formations.
I would not trust the CIA to keep a secret for 60 seconds, but the volume of disinformation covers up any transgression.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2018 - 06:54pm PT
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As you may know by now, Salt Spring Island has the highest climbing talent per capita of anywhere. Hence:
Wish I could be in the audience.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 16, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
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Wish I could be in the audience.
You and me both.
I'll be exploring my own new home that week, but once we're settled, and climbing weather rolls around again in the spring, I'll try to get down for a visit.
In the meantime, be careful of that conglomerate. Yeah, it can be solid, but it can also be kitty litter somehow stacked vertically and just waiting for someone to reduce it back to its angle of repose.
Pinto Rock, which was mentioned a few times upthread, is the weirdest "rock" I've ever seen.
And, should you ever want to trade kitty litter for granite, we have rather a lot of it in our new back yard.
Cheers
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2018 - 07:46pm PT
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A bolt?
Just use gear. Offset nuts and cams.
Looking left
I hope we can get together sometime. I may need a refresher course on granite.
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