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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 18, 2018 - 11:49am PT
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When there is a government shut down, how do they deal with visitors currently in the National Parks? Do they do a sweep through campgrounds and roust people out? Or do they just deal turning away with incoming people at the entrances?
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John M
climber
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Jan 18, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
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They generally kick you out. At least they did in Yosemite. That includes hotels. Its a pissy move in my opinion.
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beaner
Social climber
Maine
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Jan 18, 2018 - 12:21pm PT
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last shutdown they gave campers 48 hours to leave in Acadia National Park
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Jan 18, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
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Seriously?
We all know the answer.
Yer Gonna Die!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 18, 2018 - 12:29pm PT
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There are Big Walls that have designated "Government Shutdown" bivies.
FACT
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 18, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
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Some ranger gonna come drag you outta the backcountry?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jan 18, 2018 - 01:11pm PT
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Was the road through JT kept open during the shut down?
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 18, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
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The rangers used to patrol the high country in Yosemite (on horses) and roust people without proper backcountry permits. Wake them up in the middle of the night and make them get moving. Don't know if they still do that. Budgetary concerns may have affected the practice.
But never underestimate the Man.
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 18, 2018 - 01:17pm PT
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We never had any problem with the patrolling rangers in Yosemite because we never camped near a trail. You had to be near one of the elephant trails to be caught.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jan 18, 2018 - 01:18pm PT
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Don't leave your car at a trail head, unless you are ok with a ticket, or tow. Might be ok for a few days, but a week, probably knot.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 18, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
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The road through JT was not open. We were lucky enough to stay on the Cohn Property, but were told in no uncertain terms we would be tossed if we were found climbing off the property. The ranger was not happy to see us.
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 18, 2018 - 01:22pm PT
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My college roommate was brother-in-law to the Chief Ranger at Yosemite then, so I got to know a few of the rangers. They took an unholy delight in enforcing the backcountry rules. Plus when they went on a patrol they got a few days out from under the eyes of their bosses. In the high country, no less. No wonder it was so hard to get one of those jobs.
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 18, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
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The National Recreation Area at Great Falls, Virginia (part of the National Park system) was once closed when the Potomac flooded. Against the rules, one of the Olympic kayakers in the area put in on the Maryland side. A Virginia policeman waded out into the Potomac, at risk of his life, and grabbed the kayak, dragging it onto the Virginia side.
The kayaker was criminally prosecuted but the case against him was dismissed because the boundary between Maryland and Virginia runs along the Virginia side of the river, not down the center of the river, and so the Virginia policeman did not have authority to effect an arrest twenty feet or so into the river.
I personally observed (don't ask me how) that during that shutdown the rangers were patrolling parts of the park that they never ordinarily patrolled.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Jan 18, 2018 - 01:59pm PT
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the safety and integrity of park resources would be at risk, not to mention the safety of visitors and the quality of their experience, if park personnel weren’t there to ensure proper management and oversight
get ready for taggers to go on a spree
and by the way, there will be a shutdown. Politicians are not looking to avoid it, they're just angling to see how they can best use it to their own political advantage
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Jan 18, 2018 - 02:28pm PT
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how can you punish taxpaying citizens the most with the gov shutdown, throw them out of their national parks. the difference during the reagan years was they just stopped manning the entrance stations, etc. got to stay for free, it was great.
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Jan 18, 2018 - 02:52pm PT
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I was solo on El Cap during the last shutdown. They did not kick me out. Although my car had many notices on it when I got down and there was no place to buy beer...sad face.
And no they did not close Tioga Pass, I left that way. Every pull out had cones and barriers saying not to stop. I guess they were trying to close the view too.
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 18, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
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When the Tioga Road was shut down due to a fire about four years ago I rode my bike from the entrance station down to Olmstead Point and back several times, just because I could. Although cars from free to enter from the east, in fact very few did.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 18, 2018 - 05:13pm PT
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2013's shutdown in October was a stoned gas. I drove up to El Patrol and talked to the few people hanging at the EP Market and they said no problemo for traffic, patrolling Schmeglies, or tourists. The tour buses were allowed in, was my understanding.
I made a run into the park, passed thru the kiosk and was told no stopping, go straight thru to the south entrance, please. I made a record speed run to the Y at the Fresno junction after stopping briefly at Fern Spring (daring fate, of course, but that was part of the fun!).I got to Yo West and took Henness Ridge to the end and parked. Came back that night by reversing the direction, no probs.
I did not go into the valley as that would have led to who knows what. The tour buses were let in because the concessionaire, Delaware NO, would have bitched too much, I think.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 18, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
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Only gross materialists get shutdown ......
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 19, 2018 - 09:29am PT
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 19, 2018 - 09:40am PT
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WHERE’S MY WELFARE CHECK?
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Jan 19, 2018 - 09:45am PT
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In November of 1995, the federal government ran out of money after congress failed to pass a budget. Arnberger had to evacuate and close the Grand Canyon for the first time in the national park's history. But it's what happened next that focused the country's attention on Arizona.
Governor Fife Symington announced he was coming up with a slew of National Guardsman to open the park by force if necessary. Arnberger says he basically threatened to take over federal property.
"One of the last times that happened was the start of the civil war and a state making that kind of ridiculous claim. It caught everybody by surprise."
On the afternoon of November 16, the governor flew into the airport just south of the canyon. A convoy of national guardsman and state troopers joined him on the ground. Arnberger met the governor and invited him into the park.
"And the governor made a very direct comment. I'm not here to see the canyon. I'm here to take it over. I replied that a take-over would be illegal. He said "It may be illegal but who will sue us?"
Mark Shaffer, who covered the event for the Arizona Republic called it "a totally crazy situation."
"Governor Fife came up to the park," he recalls, and "was like beating on the gates there saying "Open these gates!". There were some rather bemused federal officials on the other side there checking it out."
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The shut down only lasted a week, but was quickly followed by another that lasted a month. The second time, Arizona managed to keep some of the park open by loaning the federal government around a half million dollars.
"For us it was a very practical move to save the economy of N. Arizona and it worked. We were the only national park to open."
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Arizona Senator John McCain testified that the government shut downs cost Arizona $400 million dollars in lost tourism revenues.
 http://knau.org/post/last-government-shutdown-almost-closed-grand-canyon
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 19, 2018 - 10:01am PT
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In the fall of 1995, I was working for National Biological Survey and living in the ranger cabins in Hawaii Volcanoes Nationals park.
During the shutdown, we were basically isolated in the park! We couldn’t use the government vehicles to get groceries because there was no active insurance during that time. So we played football on the lawn and hung out a lot, basically stuck. One guy shared a car with 3 other people not working there, and during the week I think we managed to make one grocery run in that private vehicle.
So I’m guessing they make some effort to get people out of the campgrounds when closing, but don’t kick residents out of the parks, and don’t force people out of the back country, but they will have kiosks closed. I doubt they would lock gates in case people inside wanted to get out, but maybe they would to prevent more people from coming in?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 19, 2018 - 10:06am PT
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nice to see trump has his priorities. he's going to mar a lago, again.
what a f*#ktard.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 19, 2018 - 11:23am PT
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Da animals will be happy in Yose.
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John M
climber
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Jan 19, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
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Living and working in Yosemite, I enjoyed the park shut downs because I didn't need much and at the time my only outstanding bills were medical bills, so I got a mini vacation. I went backpacking and had the backcountry mostly to myself. it was wonderful. But I knew people who were hurt financially by the shutdowns. Most of them were good people.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jan 19, 2018 - 12:56pm PT
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Back in '95/'96 I was at Red Rocks during the shutdown. We were camped at the old Oak Creek campground. The campground hosts received orders to kick everybody out. Instead, we got stay for free, a big middle finger to Uncle Sam for punishing park users.
The really funny thing is when National Forests "close". How do you close a forest? Pay rangers overtime to patrol the roads/trails and kick people out? But wait, I thought there was no money for staff...
It's just the gov't throwing a big tantrum and punishing the citizens to try to get back at the politicians, indirectly.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 19, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
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LEO and required essential operating employees that work during a shutdown DO get paid.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Jan 19, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
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I'm Fed up!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 19, 2018 - 02:41pm PT
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So in previous *government shutdowns*, keeping the parks open was an option all along?
Why would previous administrations have closed the parks when they could have been kept open, except to abuse the citizens?
Especially if they are going to end up paying all the employees *back wages* for the days they were off?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 19, 2018 - 03:14pm PT
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"The parks will remain open... but employees WON'T get paid"...
I'm quite certain that "non-essential" Gov. employees don't get paid during a shutdown, they get paid retroactively.
Any talk about defaulting is fake news. The 14th amendment is clear on that matter. And taxes will continue to be collected, which is more than enough to service the debt. In any case it's unconstitutional to default no matter where the money comes from, even if the President has to raise the debt. ceiling without Congressional approval.
All in, about 15% of government services will shut down. SS checks will still go out. Medicare will stay in business, as will entitlements. And needless to say the IRS will roll on.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 19, 2018 - 04:27pm PT
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So in previous *government shutdowns*, keeping the parks open was an option all along?
Why would previous administrations have closed the parks when they could have been kept open, except to abuse the citizens?
Especially if they are going to end up paying all the employees *back wages* for the days they were off?
The regulations that apply in such a shutdown, require that only "essential" and "emergency" services should remain acting.
Are the parks "essential"? Nope. Another example of the GOP ignoring the law for good publicity.
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franky
Trad climber
Madison, WI
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Jan 19, 2018 - 04:56pm PT
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Everyone got paid during the last shutdown, even those who didn't work.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jan 19, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
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Only the gross materialists whine about shutdowns.
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John M
climber
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Jan 19, 2018 - 05:07pm PT
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Everyone got paid during the last shutdown, even those who didn't work.
Federal employees got paid. Concession employees did not.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 19, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
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Congress should not get paid if the government has to shut down.
I don't mean delayed payment, I mean loss of wages.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Jan 19, 2018 - 05:26pm PT
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Everyone got paid during the last shutdown, even those who didn't work.
during the last shutdown of some 17 days, only deemed "essential" Federal employees were paid during the 2013 shutdown
the other Federal employees (my next door neighbor) did not receive their normal paychecks until after the shutdown ended and congress quickly passed a law paying back pay for that period
the Federal government categorizes employees as exempt and non exempt for pay and benefit calculations
Late in the evening of October 16, 2013, Congress passed the Continuing Appropriations Act, 2014, and the President signed it shortly after midnight on October 17, ending the government shutdown and suspending the debt limit until February 7, 2014.[16] wiki
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Jan 19, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
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Jody stated:
When the Democrats were in the WH, they refused to release the reserves that each department had so the shutdown would be disruptive
the last shutdown was in 2013 when your Republicans controlled the House and thereby all government spending, your above statement makes no sense at all, prove it
prove it Jody, show your credible sources, prove you did not just make it up
also Jody, for the now 5th time request prove your statement that
"the Dems support and people and countries that support Sharia Law"
prove that you did not make that up out of the blue just because you are so stridently partisan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_2013
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 19, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
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When was the last time you heard a Democrat get tough with talk against Sharia Law or countries that live by it?
Strike two.
Why can’t you simply admit you’re wrong instead of making yourself look like a dumbass?
Sheesh.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jan 19, 2018 - 07:42pm PT
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Quit embarrassing yourself Jody
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 19, 2018 - 09:56pm PT
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This statement:
When the Democrats were in the WH, they refused to release the reserves that each department had so the shutdown would be disruptive.
Which departments, what reserves and where is the evidence that the Whitehouse didn't allow "releasing" these reserves?
I followed the 2013 shutdown fairly closely. I don't recall the Obama admin not allowing "reserves" to be spent.
For sure there were proposed piecemeal bills (some even with the word "reserve" in their titles) that would have allowed funding, but, this wasn't for funds that had been kept in "reserve".
What departments, what funds are these, and, where is the documentation that the Whitehouse refused to allow their release (or even had the authority to do so)? There wasn't an executive order issued...
I'm reasonably handy at searching through government archives, etc, and, I just don't see any of this information. Do you have a source? Some reference?
Just curious...
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 19, 2018 - 10:06pm PT
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It is a messed up world when the TRUTH is labeled bullsh#t.
unfortunately jody, you can't handle the truth.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Jan 19, 2018 - 10:20pm PT
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Go to a non NP climbing area, F the gov who cares.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 20, 2018 - 06:30am PT
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hey there say, happygrrrl...say, i was wondering about all this...
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Jan 20, 2018 - 07:52am PT
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Norton,
I wasn't sure what Jody meant when he said "Democrats refused to release the reserves that each department had in the 2013 shutdown". I googled it and found this video.
Go to 1:00 minute mark to hear Mulvaney of OMB explaining how Democrats refused to use "carry forward funds" and "transfer authority" in 2013, which could have prevented many gov't functions from shutting down.
Also the 6:50 minute mark, 9:20 minute mark for more.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:17am PT
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I haven't looked at these issues for some time but my recollection from the last shutdown is that some of the maneuvers proposed by Mulvaney may be of dubious legality. Gov't officials have to tread very cautiously; the penalties for unauthorized expenditure of gov't funds can be draconian. At the federal agency I worked at then, we were told we would have to shut down and then my bosses got advice of counsel that we could use some left-over funds, so we didn't shut down. At my agency, every effort was made to stay open but no one wanted to risk illegality.
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ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:30am PT
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and can you folks please keep the political bickering off SuperTopo. This is a climbing forum for all people. Show some respect to our community linked by love of climbing not the need to think the same on passing current events.
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
The fake McCoy from nevernever land.
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Jan 20, 2018 - 09:09am PT
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Nps toilets may be closed but ours arent... no shitting in the woods yall...
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Jan 20, 2018 - 09:24am PT
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Larry, your video source, understandably a liar because he is a WH spokesman, is wrong
since 2010 the Tea Party wave gave Republicans control of the House
as everyone knows except WH Republican spokesmen it is the House who constitutionally controls Federal Government spending, including the emergency funding
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_2013
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Jan 20, 2018 - 09:27am PT
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Jody, your brave attempt at deflection did not work
when challenged to prove your statements were not lies, you failed
as others here have said, you are an embarrassment to your fellow "conservatives" by showing yourself not only uninformed but misinformed, very typical
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2018 - 10:08am PT
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and can you folks please keep the political bickering off SuperTopo. This is a climbing forum for all people. Show some respect to our community linked by love of climbing not the need to think the same on passing current events.
So....remember the old days in RCdotCom? When You & Co made a sport of abusing others for nothing more than....well, being on the site and not in your clique, it seemed? I was on the receiving end of quite a bit of that, including actually having some of you go into my campsite when I was not there, and take pictures of me which you posted on the site and then made disparaging remarks over.
Did something happen that had you change your thinking, or was that "just a phase" you went through, or what?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 10:22am PT
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Oh, boy, now we’re getting somewhere. Hope recess lasts long
enough for this to fully develope.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 20, 2018 - 10:25am PT
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I wasn't sure what Jody meant when he said "Democrats refused to release the reserves that each department had in the 2013 shutdown". I googled it and found this video.
Then please explain why the White House has gone to great pains to explain that employees in "essential" roles will be working----but not paid?
It appears that what gets shut down has nothing to do with budgets, reserves, or money issues, at the dept level.
So why do you pretend that it does, Larry?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 20, 2018 - 10:29am PT
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So in previous *government shutdowns*, keeping the parks open was an option all along?
Why would previous administrations have closed the parks when they could have been kept open, except to abuse the citizens?
Especially if they are going to end up paying all the employees *back wages* for the days they were off?
So Jody, I can see that I should have framed this in the form of a question:
Do you advocate that the parks are an "essential" form of gov't? More than disease monitoring, more than food inspection?
Do you advocate violating the law to get a result that is more politically appealing? Why are the parks open, Jody?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 10:34am PT
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It takes two to tango. How is either side more culpable?
This is the two party system’s greatest shortcoming.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 20, 2018 - 11:15am PT
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jan 20, 2018 - 11:23am PT
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So....remember the old days in RCdotCom? When You & Co made a sport of abusing others for nothing more than....well, being on the site and not in your clique, it seemed? I was on the receiving end of quite a bit of that, including actually having some of you go into my campsite when I was not there, and take pictures of me which you posted on the site and then made disparaging remarks over.
Did something happen that had you change your thinking, or was that "just a phase" you went through, or what?
Did you call the internet police?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jan 20, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
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Ryankelly hurled a cinder block in his little glass house, karma is a bitch
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 20, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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The Mercury News story says there will be no or limited emergency response in National Parks during the shutdown.
On vous cherche . . . not.
Just like the good old days. John Muir's good old days.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 20, 2018 - 02:32pm PT
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You people are definitely insane ........
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Jan 20, 2018 - 04:39pm PT
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Back to nature....perfect...no cops!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 20, 2018 - 05:55pm PT
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locker
climber
Jan 20, 2018 - 10:38am PT
This is NOT our "Normal" situation...
No matter how it's sliced...
ALL this bullsh!t is due to the ORANGE TURD...
and he is a REPUBLICAN...
That means ALL this bullsh!t lands on THEM< (Repubs)...
Just the way it is...
;-)
Ha. More fake news from the fakenewsman!.......
Did the orange guy tell YOU he is a REPUBLICKIN?
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Degaine
climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 01:28am PT
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Jody wrote:
This shutdown is ALL on the Dems.
Honest question, given the circumstances of this particular shutdown what is your reasoning behind your claim in the above statement?
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jan 21, 2018 - 08:33am PT
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"Closed" is a somewhat arbitrary term in my opinion......
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Jan 21, 2018 - 08:51am PT
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Before the federal government shutdown at midnight Saturday, President Donald Trump privately vented frustrations that the political impasse would possibly keep him from attending a glitzy inauguration anniversary bash and fundraiser set for Saturday at his Florida getaway Mar-a-Lago.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:24am PT
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Who was responsible for the previous shutdown, or the one in '95?
Funny how people like democracy in all its messiness but whine like bitches when they can't go to the park. First world problems anyone?
Now the PRC is using this as an opportunity to chastise "Western Democracy" because they're butt hurt about the TPP not passing against the will of the people:
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/chinese-state-media-us-government-shutdown-exposes-chronic-033125012.html
So there's your choice: totalitarianism or a squabble between representatives. I'll take my government shutdowns in stride thank you very much.
(and yes, ALL sides are to blame. F*#k your blind and emotional partisanship)
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2018 - 09:29am PT
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Actually, DMT, that is not the "technical reason."
I see you have quoted from a NYT article, here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/us/politics/government-shutdown.html so I will also add some text from that article.
First:
The final roll call, was 50 in favor and 49 against. Sixty votes are needed to end debate and move to a final vote. Five Democrats voted to end debate, while four Republicans voted with most of the Democrats to block the bill.
I don't know enough about the particulars in the Bill to make any judgement or statement on the contents; maybe others can do so. But we have a shut down, and considering that for the eight years the GOP stood against so many things the president and Democrats supported, seeming "just because they could," I don't have much sympathy for the the idea that the Democrats did similar. Especially when more Dems went "for" than Reps went "Against."
Secondly:
"obstructionist losers"
That seems a bizarre choice of words for a professional representative to use.
But What Even Matters Anymore?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:48am PT
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Many months ago Trump ended protection for Dreamers. Why? Probably because of his impulsiveness, cruelty, ignorance, and racism.
Democrats warned they would not agree to a budget unless there was a dreamer deal.
Congress has dicked around with getting a deal for dreamers for months, even though everyone said they wanted one, including trump.
A couple of weeks ago, Trump said get a dreamer deal and I'll sign it.
Graham and Durbin presented a bipartisan deal.
Trump said FU, and FU shithole countries, giving into both his white nationlists impulses and the fascists who work for him.
No one really knows what the orange f*#k up wants, even republicans. (Wow, what a great deal maker.)
So, here we are. This is squarely on the orange f*#k up.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:51am PT
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It takes two to tango. It only takes one to sling mud.
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John M
climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 09:55am PT
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Sure its a fact Dingus.. but Terri's point was that this stems out of the Rights hardline approach all through Obama's time as President. Was it a good idea for the Dems to now go hardline? I doubt it. But its understandable. It is sad though, because the hardliners are winning right now and that could go on for awhile.
Edit: Reilly said it better.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2018 - 10:10am PT
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So...the Dems should have let the Dreamers be damned, it sounds like from your post, in order to not have the shutdown.
Why is it not also the fault of Reps, for refusing Dreamer issue?
So - heading to the park today, and will bring trash bags in case I see MOOP. My sister sent me a link to an AltUSNationalParkService post, where they will send a goodie via mail to people who post before/after cleanup pics during this shutdown.
I don't need a goodie, but the post reminded me - just because the dumpster isn't full doesn't mean I should put my stuff in there at this time. I will pack out anything I bring in. Also going to buy some xtra TP and will donate if I see outage in the cans.
https://www.facebook.com/AltUSNationalParkService/?hc_ref=ARQmx6Wz-LuobbLztKKS_hRE2_8A2ZdoEp1n9XpMi5ARtLfODz6yR6Wt41FIbKJOIsc&fref=nf
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John M
climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 10:17am PT
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In Spiritually there is a saying.. Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall find Peace. The Koan is to understand how that is true, while at the same time it is also true that some times you do have to hold a hard line in the sand. Where discernment comes in is knowing when it is appropriate to hold a hard line and when it is appropriate to compromise.
The liberals compromised over health care by not voting in full socialized medicine, and what did it get them? Hatred from the right. Can someone point to me what the conservatives have compromised on in the last 20 years? I truly do not know. I haven't heard a reasonable conservative voice in quite some time, so I have no idea what they have done. The left is also mostly insane, but I still know a few reasonable voices from that side, so I can at least follow along.
At this point I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that as a country we are currently very lost.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 21, 2018 - 10:41am PT
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Not passing the stopgap spending bill meant the government shutdown. The Senate Democrats purposely continued their filibuster in an attempt to force the GOP to negotiate on the topic of dreamers. The GOP refused. The Senate Democrats basically said they would not stop the filibuster. The GOP couldn't force them and still refused to negotiate on the dreamers.
According to your own words, DMT, the Repugs refused to negotiate. Of course they did, because Trump undercut them when he refused to go along with the bipartisan compromise that the senators had negotiated in good faith, based upon Trumps' lie "that he would sign what they brought to him". So they did.
Why did he not sign it?
He supposedly agrees with it. Polls show that 80% of the populace agrees with it. The Repugs in the Senate and House agree with it?
Why?
Because he is not interested in national unity. He is interested in grinding his heel in the face of those not on his side. His anarchist advisers counseled him that to go back on his word would "f*#k up" the dems. The cost to the country is immaterial.
Keep that in mind when it comes around to extending the debt limit. Damage to the country is not an issue worthy of consideration.
As you say, fact.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 21, 2018 - 10:46am PT
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I am not wrong. I made no statements about dreamers, or walls on the mexican border, or the fitness of the GOP to govern; at all. I simply pointed out the Democrat Senate filibuster is the reason the government shut down.
No, the reason is that the GOP promised something, then when the Dems complied, they pulled the football out of the way. Now, you want the dems to toss the Dreamers overboard, so that the hardline GOP can do what it wanted all along....to deport them....and make it look like the Dems fault.
So now Trump says NO NEGOTIATION. Why?
Why would any public servant, facing a national crisis, fail to want to negotiate?
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John M
climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 10:56am PT
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No, apparently some do not. Some are saying the GOP shutdown the government and that is simply untrue.
I disagree with your interpretation of things. As Reilly pointed out, it takes two to tango. What reason did the Dems not vote for the temporary spending bill? At this point I have only heard the rights version.
If the right said.. Here is the temporary spending bill. It contains a law that makes it illegal to be a democrat, would that then make it the democrats fault if they didn't vote for it?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 21, 2018 - 10:58am PT
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Is the NP shutdown preventing Braun from posting , i hope ? rj
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John M
climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 11:08am PT
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No Dingus, you come on. Why did the Dems not vote for the temporary spending bill? If they have a lousy reason, then yes it is their responsibility. But if they have a good reason, then shouldn't some of the blame for the shutdown go towards the repubs? Or do you refuse to see that point?
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AlpineDualism
Trad climber
san diego, ca
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Jan 21, 2018 - 11:21am PT
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nothing happens in a vacuum. all things have a series of causes. yes the democrats caused the shutdown, but there were several motivating factors behind this stance. you shouldn't frame the situation as if the democrats position happened at random, it was the sum result of a multitude of external factors from all sides of the political spectrum.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 21, 2018 - 12:37pm PT
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“So...the Dems should have let the Dreamers be damned,”
I think it's been pretty clear all along that the Reps were okay with legislation fixing the DACA situation in exchange for ending chain migration, the visa lottery and a border wall. That trade was unacceptable to the Democrats, who are making it clear that they prefer the status quo. They aren't stupid for taking this position, it's politically expedient in the long view.
Reagan made a deal with a Democrat Congress where he agreed to a total amnesty bill in exchange for a commitment by Congress to seal the border. The Democrats broke that agreement. So this time around the Reps are insisting that the whole deal is in one bill. No one wants to screw the Dreamers. The fact is that other than people who are arrested for serious crimes, no illegals are going to be rounded up and deported. Trump doesn't have the political capital to make it happen, even if he wanted to.
The Republicans will do their best to hold a DACA deal hostage until they get their way on the other issues. But since a Federal Judge in CA just ruled that Trump cannot impose a deadline for closing the DACA program, I expect that this issue will be tabled for the time being and Congress will fund the government ASAP. Perhaps the next battle regarding Trump's authority in this matter will be fought in the Supreme Court.
As a footnote (from the armchair) I'd guess that if a deal is ever reached the Reps will trade off the wall, or most of it, in exchange for stopping chain migration, the visa lottery, and tightening the border in other ways. Trump can let himself off the hook by blaming Congress and "reluctantly" sign the bill.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 21, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
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The government is still shut down because tRump is a coward and a liar. He wants all the credit and none of the accountability. He always needs someone else to blame.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Jan 21, 2018 - 01:45pm PT
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good thing the US President is so against a government shutdown
glad Donald got what he wanted
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 21, 2018 - 02:38pm PT
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That is unsound logic
Analyzing our gubmint using logic is a fool's errand.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 21, 2018 - 03:06pm PT
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I know that. Remember, I'm the one that runs the reading comp class here.;-)
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John M
climber
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Jan 21, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
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nothing wrong with my logic. We were arguing different things.
I simply pointed out the Democrat Senate filibuster is the reason the government shut down.
The problem is, and you should know this, its not that simple. Certainly people will try to make it that simple and I agree with your contention that the Dems should stand up and say they voted against the temporary spending bill. And then say why. Thats better then first trying to blame the repubs. Because you are correct, this bill did not pass because they filibustered. So I agree with you to that point.
but..
there is a reason that they filibustered. That was mine and Terri's and Reilly's point.
Edit: And as Alpinerealism pointed out.. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Jan 21, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
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^^^^ This man blows goats. I have proof.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Jan 21, 2018 - 03:59pm PT
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Jan 21, 2018 - 04:03pm PT
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Jody stated:
When the Democrats were in the WH, they refused to release the reserves that each department had so the shutdown would be disruptive
the last shutdown was in 2013 when your Republicans controlled the House and thereby all government spending, your above statement makes no sense at all, prove it
prove it Jody, show your credible sources, prove you are not lying
also Jody, for the now 5th time request prove your statement that
"the Dems support and people and countries that support Sharia Law"
prove it, Jody
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_2013
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 21, 2018 - 07:42pm PT
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I agree with your contention that the Dems should stand up and say they voted against the temporary spending bill. And then say why. Thats better then first trying to blame the repubs. Because you are correct, this bill did not pass because they filibustered.
The only problem with this "evidence" is the video posted above, where Lindsay Graham tells us, on tape, that he voted "No". They couldn't even get their boys to vote for it.
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Degaine
climber
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Jan 22, 2018 - 03:49am PT
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@Dingus, thanks for the detailed posts. I had not personally looked at the situation from your point of view: the trigger event.
@Jody, thanks for taking the time to reply.
While not a personal fan of the current Republican way of doing business, my understanding is that Republicans and Democrats in both houses of Congress came to an agreement that Trump openly stated he was willing to sign (or he at least stated that he would sign any agreement the two parties in the two houses of Congress came to).
Also, my understanding of the situation is that Trump reneged on the bipartisan deal, causing the need for a stopgap bill and a close-call procedural vote for debate.
If I counted correctly, the procedural vote count is as follows: 5 Republican senators voted no, 1 abstained (McCain), 1 independent voted no, and 5 Democrats voted yes, that's 12 votes from a mix of three parties.
While I personally am in favor of the Democrats in the Senate taking a stand, in this particular case, if we are going to play the "my team / your team" blame game, I fail to see how the Democrats are "100% at fault". The Republicans had enough Democrats to vote "yes" but failed in convincing enough members of their own party to do so.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
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I don't "blame" anyone for the shutdown. I would assume(since I haven't personally researched on the topic) that what was written a few posts back, was that it was due to a series of events, with both sides involved. I just took objection, DMT, to your simplified "Dem's fault." It triggered reminders of the frustrations we faced over GOP refusals to work w/Dems just because, at least that is what is seemed, that "black man in the White House."
I agree that if a shutdown occurs, as Ballo said, he'd rather have that than a totalitarian gov. telling us "here's how it is going to be."
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jan 22, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
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Found this in an email from a river runners organization (they were going to let private parties launch during the shutdown)
According to Ranger Vandzura, the National Park Service cannot say they
are open. "You can" he said, "but we can't." Vandzura noted essential
services such as the operation of the Park's helicopter and the Grand
Canyon Clinic will remain fully operational. Unless donations or
volunteers come forward, restrooms and visitor centers will be closed.
Seems like the LE in the Grand Canyon were not going to enforce a closure.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 22, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
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And the take-home message from the last three days is...
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Jan 22, 2018 - 10:26pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mitch McConnell shut the government down, not Democrats. And it is Republicans that have been shamelessly politicizing the effect on the troops.
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GZ
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Jan 31, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
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In November 91' my partner and I hit Chickenhead on our first day, and the shut down was ordered sometime that day.
By nightfall it was a mass exodus of cars, the lights streaming as far as the eye could see in both directions.
We had no idea what was going on, but the next 2 days on the Nose were HEAVENLY!
No cars, no dragon, nothing. No campfire smoke, just clear air and mostly silence from down below.
When we got back to our cars, the shutdown was over, but there was hardly anybody in the valley.
BEST. SHUTDOWN. EVER.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Ready for another round?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Freaking idiots should give us a balanced budget or be forced to quit.
They just have to learn to compromise.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Yes, negotiating a solution their f'ing job.
Last one was not a problem
Love Flagstaff
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
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What do you think the chances of a shut down are? My friend is getting ready to board a flight to JT tonight. Hopefully the "Parks Open" happens again, or she's going to be one unhappy camper.....
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Is she landing at Giant Rock?
Just kidding.
I don't think there will be another one, but wish the DEM's would hold lying MMc to his word.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Its OUR fukking park!
They ought to just keep out the motor vehicles. That would cut down on the most likely problems.
What a bummer for your friend Hapie.
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