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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jan 16, 2018 - 05:02pm PT
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I wonder why Santa Clara County made the cut to be part of New California? Maybe the new state needed a reliable source of revenue? San Benito County didn't make the cut, so I'll have to cross the state line to go to work.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 16, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
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Does this mean there'll be a new shithole?
It all depends on what you mean by shithole.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jan 16, 2018 - 06:20pm PT
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Riverside/ Orange County/San Diego ain't exactly farm land either.
Fitting that odd count number of stars on the flag is always so awkward.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jan 16, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
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Gerry has mandered another crooked line.
Better yet, for purposes of electoral college and number of congressmembers + senators, combine into one state:
both Dakotas
Iowa & Missouri
Wy & Montana & Idaho
Kansas + Nebraska
Oklahoma + Arkansas
Utah + Nevada
W. Virginia + Delaware.
Mississippi + ?
Alaska + Hawaii
etc.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 16, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
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Shitheadistan?
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Jan 16, 2018 - 08:21pm PT
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I get the distinct feeling though that blue California is going to move out into the Central Valley and eastern counties. Venture Capital (VC) will eventually make it up the 580 corridor to places like Modesto and (my gawd!) Oakdale. There's already a telecommuting culture in the Foothills that faces toward San Jose. Eventually all that cheap real estate is just too tempting. Also, the eastern provinces are tied to State money that's doled out to the poorer areas. If they go indy, they'll be cutting their own throats.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 16, 2018 - 08:30pm PT
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If they go indy, they'll be cutting their own throats.
That's what is forgotten every time the rural (or at least non-big-city) folk get upset about being under the political thumb of the city-dwelling hordes.
Modern roads, power, sewers, etc etc etc aren't free, and the residents of small-town North America would have trouble paying for them without a contribution from the taxes harvested from those nasty city types.
Yes, it goes both ways, and the city-dwellers gain from their rural brethren, but to believe that you and your twenty neighbors can afford, out of your own pockets, the upkeep of the highways, power grids etc that you take for granted is unrealistic.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 16, 2018 - 08:43pm PT
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They haven't forgotten.
Hmmm. Technically, that's probably true. In order to forget something, you have to have known it in the first place. Having lived in small-town, medium-size, and big-city environments, my sense is that the rural folk really don't accept that "those as#@&%es in the city" are contributing big dollars to the rural lifestyle.
On the other hand, this...
The key here is to listen and hear what they are really chaffed about. It's the same set of complaints that led to the election of President Trump.
...is spot on. But the real question is, how do we get people to listen?
Dingus, you and I have lived in tiny, small, medium and big places. We know that farm folk, small-towners, little-city people, and urbanites all have problems. But a lot of people who have never left their birth environment are unwilling, or incapable, of seeing anything except their own problems -- which, of course, are caused by "those as#@&%es in..."
What to do?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 16, 2018 - 08:56pm PT
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Can we get an Amen for New Baja California?
Or two.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jan 16, 2018 - 09:07pm PT
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Which state would get to keep the legal weed?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
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...I don't have any big answers.
That might be true Dingus. Maybe you don't have big answers.
But you do have small answers.
I see at least one of your small answers daily on this site. I see you treat your fellow citizens (here on Supertopo) with basic respect. Consistently. Day in and day out. Agree or disagree. Basic respect for others.
That's a small answer that I wish a lot more people would implement.
(As you would say) Cheers!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 16, 2018 - 09:59pm PT
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I don't know the answer either. But it's an answer we ought to be working hard to find, because the us-vs-them splits are starting to rip civilization apart. And not just in the US -- Europe is seeing the same thing.
And going two posts up, I have to disagree with Jim's comment about the old saw of labour being stationary and capital mobile not having changed since the invention of money.
That is just plain wrong. Labor has been mobile since the beginning of the industrial revolution. If labor wasn't mobile, there would be no big cities.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Jan 16, 2018 - 10:10pm PT
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Pretty smart how they give the blue California the commercial ports and two major international airports, the oil producing counties and the wine, tech and entertainment industries.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 16, 2018 - 10:36pm PT
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don't know the answer either.
I do. Nobody listened to Thomas Malthus 200 years ago except the German Army in
the latter part of the 19th century.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Jan 16, 2018 - 10:53pm PT
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But what are the best paying jobs in Tuolumne County? For one, the guards out at the prison by Jamestown who buy property in Twain Harte and get big pensions. For another, there are the social workers who try to help the tweakers and homeless in downtown Sonora. The social worker types too have degrees, high paying jobs and pension-track positions. But where does the money come from to pay them? Obviously from the fat areas along the Coast filtered through the State Legislature in Sacramento. In other words, the backbone of the local economies is underwritten by the more prosperous areas. If the counties in the Sierra foothills set up their own separate State there wouldn't be anyone around except the homeless, criminals and tweakers. All the retirees would scream bloody murder.
Hence what's missing in the cultural outback in Cali is venture capital plus large schools to produce a professional class that would up the standard of living and raise property values. But a lot of the people who live in those areas don't want to see that happen because then they'd have to change. Wouldn't be quiet and folksy anymore. Just can't have it both ways though.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 17, 2018 - 02:34am PT
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For the guards at Sierra Conservation Center, the realty game in Tuolumne County and vicinity is the new Mother Lode. Their union is probably the single most effective in the entire state. What would one expect?
There are more folks commuting to Modesto from the foothills than ever, whereas in the last century the Sonora area was more of a second-home investment opportunity for those in the urban centers and the coast.
Recently, there are many staffers at UC Merced who live in Mariposa County for the lifestyle and who commute to the campus through the charming countryside each morning. Also, there are several people who I have met that teach at the UC, but who don't get nearly the wages the administrators have been able to wangle. They typically commute from areas like Oakland/East Bay to work at the lower pay scale, but tenure is not going to happen soon, if at all.
Times and economies change constantly and we have the automobile to thank.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 17, 2018 - 07:56am PT
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ain't going to happen.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 08:04am PT
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^^^^^. Jerry would call out the National Guard, headed by General RJ!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 08:25am PT
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California Satellite Image - View Cities, Rivers, Lakes & Environment
Green Power
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Slym
climber
Merced, CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 08:35am PT
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...the red counties rightly understand that the money the blue counties supposedly send their way is mostly illusion. Property tax runs those counties not state level tax dollars. The blue county rich folk squanders billions on bullsh#t, emo voter initiatives and pretend everything is a-ok.
Moving from a "blue" county in Silicon Valley to a rural "red" County a couple years ago has been a confirmation of what you posted above, and part of the reason we decided to move our family to the Central Valley. People here generally have a good nose for the bullsh#t, and aren't willing to be sold a sack of it. Then it's seemingly excused as the ramblings of simple folk.
I'm in a line of work that really needs more participation from these communities, but they've been burned so many times in the last 50 years (and see more on the horizon) that apathy takes over, and it's easier for many to just put the nose to the grindstone and achieve the "simple life" you outlined in your other comment below.
It's interesting, too -- Mouse mentioned the UC influence in Merced, where even here there's some mistrust in "the UC folk." Maybe it's a mistrust of a "blue" institution that's perceived to be selling more bullsh#t? Or maybe it's a protective instinct to keep those "blues" from impacting the "simple life."
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 17, 2018 - 10:08am PT
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People here generally have a good nose for the bullsh#t, and aren't willing to be sold a sack of it.
Then why do they vote Republican?
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 10:25am PT
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Which state would get to keep the legal weed?
I'd presume both.
Not sure why non-New California cares so much about breakaway states. A lot of them were probably cheering for Catalan independence not long ago.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 10:59am PT
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In order for such a separation to work it would necessarily require overwhelming support in both Trad Cali and Libtardia Enclavia.
The only two ways I can see that going forward is:
1) Trad Cali acquires the political dominance to reverse the current electoral situation--forcing Libtardia to perhaps seek separation, which Trad Cali would readily agree to in a heartbeat. This is of course highly unlikely given the current population distribution and disparities.
2) Blue Cali joins the rest of the national Libtardia Enclavia to secede from the U.S. and as part of a broader deal would relinquish Trad Cali.
Any of these developments are in the distant future, if at all. But perhaps not so distant.
One thing is certain however: IF current and future efforts to limit immigration in the U.S. become increasingly restrictive this will threaten the political future of Libtardia by depleting it of incoming warm bodies.
The writing on the wall for Blue Cali would then be incrementally apparent: separate while they've got the warm bodies or risk an ignominious political reintegration into Trad America.
Such an outcome would of course be unfortunately tragic for the progressive techno-elite masses yearning to breathe free:
If on the other hand Blue Cali joins a nationally broad Libtardia Enclavia and secedes from the U.S. it would be hard not to envision a dystopian future for the resultant Snowflakia: an immigration policy that could be summed up as: "if you can get here then you're a de facto citizen." And a political climate resembling third world thuggery as various groups violently clash for dominance:
The situation would then devolve into inescapable anarchy and then eventual totalitarian leftism of the sort witnessed in Europe and elsewhere over the last century. Not pretty.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 11:36am PT
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Sadly, Ward probably spent a fair amount of his morning composing and illustrating that babblelog.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 11:38am PT
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Sadly, Ward probably spent a fair amount of his morning composing and illustrating that babblelog.
Probably just a little bit longer than you spent reading it.
Like the photos?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 12:05pm PT
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Will Independence then become like a ‘free state’ or the Switzerland of Cali?
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matisse
climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 12:54pm PT
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They are dreaming if they aren't already if they think San Diego county would be a part of this. From Wikipedia "According to the San Diego County Registrar of Voters, as of June 2013, there are 1,556,739 registered voters in San Diego County. Of those, 547,897 (35.2%) are registered Democratic, 526,306 (33.8%) are registered Republican, 401,340 (25.8%) declined to state a political party"
56% voted for Clinton and only 36% for Trump.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2018 - 01:50pm PT
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At least they'll have a bullet train...
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Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
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Jan 17, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
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It's a non-starter of an idea. Wasn't the last time a state divided in 1863?
Part of Virginia "went south," quite literally, and another part wanted to stay with the Union.
That same event settled the broader issue of secession, too...
Force of arms says states cannot secede.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 03:23pm PT
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There's a shithole part of every state, county, city and block. There's even a sh#t-drawer in my kitchen.
Because he won't, I take out my neighbor's trash every Thursday...big deal.
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Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
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Jan 17, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
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^^^ Welcome to the 19th century economy and the pre-lapsarian New Deal society to which all the red hats would have us return. Back when things were so much better than they are today.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 17, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
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My story is pretty much the same as Dingus' in terms of leaving the place I grew up and heading west. I didn't do it for a job, rather because I was unhappy in my home town and wanted something else. Didn't know what it was, but knew there had to be something out there for me.
Also like Dingus, I think I did reasonably well for a prairie boy "of modest education and income aspiration." Which is to say, I discovered climbing, and built a life around that -- somehow managing to include a family, home ownership, and all that stuff. Including the "old cars and cheap clothes."
And then threw it all away, moved again (this time for a job), and redid the whole show.
But Dingus and I aren't just old guys whose stories are meaningless in this new era. In the last three years, I've hired four young people (well, three young and one middle-aged) and am about to hire a fifth. And every single one of them has the same history -- moving from where they grew up and looking for a new life.
And they're doing well, even in this city (Seattle) which everyone says has become totally unaffordable.
And, as Dingus said:
Was it ever any different? Was Rome affordable to some peasant from the provinces?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 17, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
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SomebodyAnybody nailed it. Figuring out how to fix those issues would solve a lot of the inequality and persistent unemployment issues we have.
I grew up in Torrance, not too far from the beach. It was a pretty nice place to grow up. To move and get a house where my parents house was, you'd need an income well over $100K and a decent sized down payment. How many people moving from West Virginia or Mississippi are going to have that?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 17, 2018 - 04:51pm PT
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Or maybe we just create two little states for the 9% very conservative people and 6% very liberal people and let them each create and live with their own messes.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
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Drive from downtown LA to northeast CA and it seems weird that it's all one state.
Broad range of people and lifestyles to all have one set of rules created by the two most populated areas.
I'm fine with the split and living in New California, we wouldn't need all the tax money from the big cities because we wouldn't spend it on things like bullet trains and enforcing the 900 (!) new laws on the books in CA for 2018.
We'll let LA buy water for $1 per gallon, the tax for building a giant city right next to no natural resources of their own :)
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 07:21pm PT
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Or maybe we just create two little states for the 9% very conservative people and 6% very liberal people and let them each create and live with their own messes.
Why wouldn't you put them in one little state and televise the results?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
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Never saw you in Otay or San Miguel or didI? Cheers {from Bostonia Ballroom}
I’ve been all over this state top to bottom left to right rich to poor - and I am just not going to let yall rip my playground apart like this. So the motion is DENIED!
;)
You Californios are just going to have to learn to live together... again.
DMT
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
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I hold the opposite view Limpo... I love the mind boggling diversity of my adopted home of California. I love the dichotomy of if all too. It’s so friggin amazing from geology and geopraphy to ecosystems and the vast span of people and cultures.
I really dig going from San Francisco boardroom out through the delta to central valley farm town, 49er country, honest to god mountains of the gentle wilderness to the high desert beyond.
I’ve been all over this state top to bottom left to right rich to poor - and I am just not going to let yall rip my playground apart like this. So the motion is DENIED!
;)
You Californios are just going to have to learn to live together... again.
DMT
I can understand that point of view, and I also enjoy the diversity of CA that makes it geographically awesome. What I'm saying is to look out the window when driving through most of New California and think about the fact that most of those people don't get what they vote for, but are instead told how to operate by people that live in a very different area.
For much of rural CA it's like being told, "keep quiet, we know what's good for you so just have to do what we say."
Understandable that they'd want to make their own state so they get a say.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 17, 2018 - 08:52pm PT
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delete this thread. This is the kind of sh#t the Russian intelligence apparatus would love to see.
We're all Californians.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Jan 17, 2018 - 08:53pm PT
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I have also come to believe the next wave of industrialization will be mobile enough to bring in smaller scale money to heartland communities, if all parties concerned are willing to bust their asses to make it happen.
I doubt the last part of that statement very much, Dingus. People in Sonora-Soulsbyville-Twain Harte are fundamentally lazy and don't want anything to change very much at all. Then, what do they have to bitch about?
That's why Tuolumne County needs a Sandhill Boulevard with millions of venture capital and a big school to turn out programmers and engineers. Bulldoze this place! Make it into a 24/7 party zone and wreck it's rural character for good.
But seriously I think you have a good point about diversified high-tech remote industries moving into the area. There used to be the Pine Mountain Group in Groveland ('Grovel Town') but I think it got bought out by an outfit in Orange County. Pine Mountain used to be one of the best network diagnostic places going with seminars and an library of diagnostic scripts. They'd come out of Lockheed-Martin and could solve any network problem. Someone must have come along and bought and transported their knowledge base down to LA.
I did just tell Gavin Newsom about bringing some low-impact high-tech into the Cali foothills. What about a VC strip in Modesto? All they need is MONEY. Maybe we could all get together and pay Gavin off to see things our way?
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
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the next wave of industrialization will be mobile enough to
make sure Indians get all yer jorbs
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Jan 17, 2018 - 11:34pm PT
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make sure Indians get all yer jorbs
They already have all the good jobs in Tuolumne County at the Indian casinos.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Jan 18, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
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Not sure what you mean by "fundamentally," but they do vote differently.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Jan 18, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
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I just love the rednecks, haters, speed freaks, tweakers and homeless up in the foothills. Are they really worth saving?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2018 - 03:43pm PT
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New Idaho would be more like it...
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Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
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Jan 19, 2018 - 08:50am PT
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I'm with Dingus.
I assume everybody realizes this is a debate about ten years younger than the state.
By the `60s, people in the rest of California were squealing about "the Bay." (Note: that's the 1860s, before even Donini can remember.)
Los Angeles got added after the earthquake. (Jim can't remember that one, either.)
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Jan 19, 2018 - 02:25pm PT
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They should make the border on fault lines...
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