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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 14, 2018 - 11:17am PT
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An op-ed piece in today's NY Times (sorry I don't have the link; I read this in a dead-tree copy) claims that, per the mayor of a certain French town, climbers are now required by law to carry harness, rope and headlamp on certain routes. Or they will be fined.
Also, someone wrote in to Carolyn Hax (advice columnist in the W Post) and said that she, the writer, didn't like her new boyfriend's adult daughter because said daughter was promiscuous and opinionated and engaged in both rock and ice climbing. One sensed that the ice climbing was the deal breaker. Everything else she could have tolerated.
Finally, the Sat. NY Times (again, dead-tree copy) said that some Amish oppose safety features on buggies such as orange reflectors because such features usurp God's role in overseeing safety from speeding motor vehicles.
Let's have a poll. Who is with the Amish, and who is with the French mayor. My personal observation says climbers will favor the Amish point of view.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 14, 2018 - 11:30am PT
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Funny stuff.
I'm with the Amish all the way. Even though they're promiscuous.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 14, 2018 - 11:33am PT
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The Frogs are all about control. A sign near Chamonix:
WTF?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 14, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
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So lets see. A requirement for basic climbing gear if climbing.
These things don't come out of nowhere, they happen because there are incidents. So what would be the effect?
On skilled climbers, none.
On people that don't know what they are doing, but head up---will get them off the route.
Stop the problem causing many SAR call-outs? or increase climbing fees to pay for the call-outs?
Who do we think should set policy in a particular climbing area? Locals, or Americans? Should Americans set policy for how everyone does everything in the world? Hmmmmm. Might rephrase that poll.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 14, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
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Everything's relative to something else, que no?
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
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A point of theology, I guess. The NY Times quotes a New York State Police sergeant who works as a liason officer with the Amish and Mennonite communities on traffic safety issues. He says that some think the orange color signifies the devil or hell fire.
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dauwhe
Trad climber
Greenfield, MA
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Jan 14, 2018 - 01:04pm PT
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A few years ago in September I hiked up from Chamonix to Plan d'Aiguille (midstation for the Aiguille du Midi lift, 4000 feet above the valley floor) late in the day. I knew I'd be hiking down after dark, and so was prepared. As I descended by headlamp, I saw a person walking up without a light. Turned out to be a 20-something Dutch kid, with city shoes, a big sweater, and a tiny backpack. He asked me if he could get to Mont Blanc if he kept walking up the trail. It took a lot of persuading, but I eventually convinced him that he would need ropes and crampons and technical skills to go higher than Plan d'Aiguille. He finally came to his senses, and walked down the trail by the light of my headlamp.
I wonder what would happen if that kid had found the right trailhead for Mont Blanc, and no one convinced him to turn around.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 14, 2018 - 01:05pm PT
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The piece is by Francis Sanzaro, editor of both Rock and Ice and Ascent, and is entitled Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/opinion/sunday/keep-our-mountains-free-and-dangerous.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fsunday&_r=0
From the quote, the Amish want to replace mandated safety measures with a faith in god. The climbers' response is not based on faith in all-powerful savior, but rather on a desire to preserve uncertainty and risk in the mountains, where they are natural (one might even say god-given) aspects of life.
And what I called the climbers' response is perhaps the response of a shrinking cohort of climbers, as technology and fashion continually diminish the risks associated with climbing and so bring more and more people to the activity who want to be shielded from the adverse features of unbridled nature.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 14, 2018 - 01:13pm PT
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dauwhe, nice one! Did you try to explain crevasses to that tard?
You coulda shown him his route...
Street shoes? No problem!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 14, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
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What do you call an Amish guy with his arm way up a horse's ass?
The mechanic.
Sorry. Couldn't stop myself.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 14, 2018 - 07:47pm PT
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Pretty soon the Ten Essentials will be law and we'll all be bivying much more than we like.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jan 14, 2018 - 07:50pm PT
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If an Amish person climbed, they would probably go with lug sole boots and a hemp rope. So I'm going to have to go against the Amish on this one.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 14, 2018 - 09:03pm PT
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I'm not a fan of regulations and I dislike the idea trying to make safe what isn't. But really, they are dealing with things on Mont Blanc that are pretty messed up. Inspired, one supposes, by Killian Jornet, (who some might remember had to call the gendarmarie to rescue him from the Frendo Spur because he was up there too lightly equipped), more and more trail runners with little or no alpine experience are tackling Mont Blanc in preposterously inadequate equipment---and dying.
I don't know that equipment rules are any kind of answer, but it is possible to have some sympathy for the mayor of the local town, especially (and I have no idea whether or not this is true) some portion of his budget goes towards the rescues.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Jan 14, 2018 - 09:31pm PT
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"Climbers in running shoes! Sacre bleu!" :-D -- https://www.chamonix.net/english/news/PGHM-Chamonix-Rescue-Kilian-Jornet
Then there was the time his partner broke through a cornice right behind him. -- https://theadventureblog.blogspot.com/2012/06/kilian-jornets-climbing-partner-killed.html
However great an athlete Kilian is, I wouldn't bet on him reaching retirement age.
I think some sort of regulation may be necessary in parts of the Alps that are almost resorts or amusement parks. (The folks who rescued Kilian off the Frendo Spur rapped in from the top of a gondola, after all.) The easy access leads to crowds, herd behavior, and an unhealthy feeling of safety. If the North Cascades were as accessible as the Alps, or if Colorado had terrain as treacherous, we would have similar problems in the States, but fortunately they aren't.
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Degaine
climber
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Jan 15, 2018 - 12:22am PT
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The mayor of Saint-Gervais (the township where the summit of Mont-Blanc is officially located), Jean-Marc Peillex, is, well, special. He likes to call attention to himself. About once or twice per year he has a "look at me, look at me," moment like this. Most of the time he uses controversy to do so.
He enacted the city ordinance (which has no legal weight) following the unfortunate deaths of two inexperienced trail runners on Mont Blanc's Aiguille/Dome du Gouter standard route. During the hub-bub, he blamed Kilian Jornet.
The PGHM (Chamonix's SAR) stated that their job is rescuing people (they are officially law enforcement), full stop. In addition, in its first iteration, the mayor did not put a helmet on the list, and most deaths / injuries injured on this route are due to rock fall when they cross the Gouter Couloir.
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Degaine
climber
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Jan 15, 2018 - 12:27am PT
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Regarding Kilian Jornet's adventure on the Frendo Spur, it's pretty common for people to climb it in a day in the summer, taking the first tram at 6:30am.
On that particular day, thunderstorms were in the forecast for late afternoon (and proved accurate), more than enough time for Kilian and a more experienced partner to climb the spur.
As has happened with many of us, he overestimated his girlfriend's abilities. When it was clear that she was in bad shape he made the (right) decision to call for a rescue.
The PGHM or CRS SAR teams in France prefer to recover live rather than dead bodies, and if it weren't for the fact that it's Kilian Jornet, no one would have ever heard about the incident.
Whether people like to admit it or not - whatever their experience, country of origin, or philosophy about adventure and self-sufficiency - the proximity of the lifts and the ability of the PGHM to rescue people quickly just about anywhere in the Mont-Blanc Range is, in my humble opinion, in the back of people's minds (consciously or subconsciously) and has an influence on the risks they are willing to take.
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Hoser
climber
Vancouver,Rome
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Jan 15, 2018 - 04:25am PT
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To qualify for a backcountry pass at Whistler you needed that gear least and more for at least the last two decades.
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2018 - 05:04am PT
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Does anyone remember Jeremy Bernstein's piece On Vous Cherche, published sometime in the 1970s, and reprinted in his book Ascent? Describes various rescue efforts around Chamonix. Still worth reading, I think.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 15, 2018 - 08:39am PT
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If the good mayor was really interested in safety he would see to it that the antiquated
Midi-Helbronner telepherique gets replaced with a design less than 60 years old, nest ce pas?
The week after I was there in August 2016 there was almost a major tragedy with the exact
scenario that occurred near Grenoble about 30 years ago. But stupid hikers/climbers are
much easier (and cheaper) low-hanging fruit for our attention whore maire.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 15, 2018 - 09:13am PT
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Degaine, thanks for real perspectives on the situation.
It is, as you say, impossible not to at least subconsciously factor in the availability of help when deciding what risks are appropriate. But the fact that, perhaps at great expense and considerable risk to others, we can be extricated from the results of bad luck or bad judgement surely rattles the foundations of mountaineering as a purely individual enterprise that utilizes just experience and skill against the dangers of the mountains.
But in case there is any confusion on the matter, I think the mayor's regulations are dumb, probably only enforceable after a rescue has taken place, and unlikely to make a noticeable dent in the accident rate.
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Michael Browder
Mountain climber
Chamonix, France (Oregon originally)
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Jan 15, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
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I think the thing to realize about the French is that they have regulations for everything. It's just that NOBODY follows them including the French. This includes skiing off piste. There is no freedom here except what everybody takes.
They certainly don't follow U.S. regulations when visiting. I remember one time attending a slide show presentation about a disabled person climbing El Cap when the park was closed due to Congress not authorizing funding. She was in the company of a French gendarme whose very words were, "Sometimes one has to break the law." I've also seen advertisements in Snells catalogue of guides guiding in Yosemite or on Denali. You know they weren't part of a concessionaire.
The thing about Jornet, is it's not the first time he's got into trouble in the Mont Blanc massive going 'light and fast'....
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Degaine
climber
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Jan 15, 2018 - 12:42pm PT
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@Reilly,
FYI - the Midi-Hellbronner gondola is within Chamonix's city limits and not Saint-Gervais, so it's the town of Chamonix's problem (actually it's the Compagnie du Mont-Blanc's problem since they have the concessions contract to run the lifts).
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Degaine
climber
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Jan 15, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
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@Rgold,
Like Yosemite, most of the PGHM's rescues in Chamonix are hikers and not climbers/mountaineers. In the winter, most rescues are due to knee injuries or collisions at one of the ski areas.
In spite of the PGHM, plenty of people still unfortunately perish in the Mont-Blanc Range every year, whether falling into crevasses, buried in an avalanche, rockfall, etc.
However, in France, a lot more emphasis is placed on personal responsibility when it comes to hiking, climbing, backcountry skiing, etc. Jurisprudence reflects this.
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Degaine
climber
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Jan 15, 2018 - 12:56pm PT
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@Michael Browder,
Honest question, when was the other time that Kilian got into trouble in the Mont-Blanc Range?
As far as regulations in France go, off-piste skiing is allowed, and unless patrol did not do their job and an avalanche comes tumbling down onto an open groomed run, jurisprudence clearly demonstrates that it is the individual's responsibility (and not the ski area's) to move safely through the mountains.
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GuapoVino
climber
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Aug 15, 2018 - 02:41pm PT
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River runners have had to adhere to a list of required items for years if they want to paddle down riviers controlled by the NPS, BLM or USFS. Sometimes, if it's in the middle of nowhere and isn't a very popular river, no one is there to check you or ask questions and it's on the honor system. Sometimes they just ask if you're familiar with the regs and if you have everything. Some times there is a mandatory equipment check by a ranger at the put-in.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Aug 15, 2018 - 03:33pm PT
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If you climb in the domain of SAR then you must submit to regulation.
If you want the mountain to be dangerous, disband SAR.
Dingus, this is really a sign in Disneyland?
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perswig
climber
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Aug 15, 2018 - 04:15pm PT
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A point of theology, I guess. The NY Times quotes a New York State Police sergeant who works as a liason officer with the Amish and Mennonite communities on traffic safety issues. He says that some think the orange color signifies the devil or hell fire.
I'm pretty sure Maine has an exemption from the 'hunter orange' requirement during deer season for certain religious beliefs.
You pays your money and takes your chances...
Dale
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