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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 31, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
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Sunday's N.Y. Times Magazine (31 Dec 2017) is devoted to short pieces on noteworthy people who died in 2017. It includes Royal Robbins. Daniel Duane, the author of the piece on Royal, adheres to "Simplify, simplify, simplify, then exaggerate" which assaults my sense of the more nuanced actual history, but still, Royal's inclusion is pretty cool.
https://nyti.ms/2E6XWj4
Happy New Year
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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The subject matter they chose for the piece on Robbins is a bit of a bizarre choice. Not sure that the non-climbing NY masses will understand the story at all . Without prior knowledge of the story... it's sort of a WTF are they talking about?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dan Duane is an established writer with Outside and other mags. I think, though, that he's a bit young to comment on someone of Robbins' stature. He may well never have met RR in his climbing days.
But hell, it's a fluff piece for the holiday, so WTF. It's not like it is a serious biography. There was much more he could have written about that would satisfy the NY audience. Or the Clevelanders.
Happy New Year, Roger!
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unlocked gait
Gym climber
the range
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his was an eclectic quest.
why paint it otherwise?
who the f*#k cares about the audiences reception of the truth.
he was wiley, at heart. royal.
yea he was also a brilliant business man, which way more c#&%s could swallow; but the fella made brilliance out of the mundane.
if i were to pen a piece on the man,
i would also shelf the common and celebrate his extraordinary eccentricities.
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WBraun
climber
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it's a fluff piece for the holiday, so WTF. It's not like it is a serious biography
Yep .... that's all it is.
Why people react to every little fluff piece anyways?
NYT is a sh!ty newspaper anyways.
They've fallen off the map over 20 years ago .....
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2018 - 10:17am PT
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These are obits: right or wrong in their details, they are not fluff pieces.
I have never read anything else by Duane, as far as I know. His piece hangs on Royal's complicated relationship with Warren and weaves his story through the regular route on NW face of Half Dome, the Nose, and the Dawn Wall, ending with Royal accepting that Warren still climbed well. While this makes for a tight, symmetrical story in which the final sentences write themselves, it is a poor summary of Royal's life, reassigning Royal's laudable ability to shine a bright light on himself to some muddled notion that Warren's climbing equated to his on ideals.
As climbers, we all gained from Royal's efforts, but I don't think admitting Warren climbed well is the takeaway. We all knew that, we just didn't like his bolting. But drawing a sharp distinction between Royal and Waarren regarding bolting would not be easy: There are the inconveniences of integrating the second-ascent team of the Nose adding a bolt or the long bolt ladders on Tis-sa-ack.
I don't think Royal's dustups with Warren were the center of Royal's life or a major contribution to climbing (fortunately, climbing just moved on, well before the Dawn Wall), but I would give Duane a pass--he writes what editors want--and just feel good about those editors wanting a piece on Royal.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Roger,
I agree with your sentiments, and Happy New Year!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Werner, in your great wisdom, what newspaper should I read. Which news is valid in your opinion?
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unlocked gait
Gym climber
the range
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werner was over 20 years ago,
over.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Roger, you're correct about these being obits.
I do think you're right about the center of RR's life NOT being as Dan depicts.
I have to say both things or I won't be able to face you honestly when the time comes for the man's memorial in Modesto.
I have an open mind and am happy to engage new ideas or differences of opinion.
Hope to see you in March.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2018 - 02:19pm PT
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Happy New Year, Brian. Steve too.
I misread a post upthread from Mouse from Merced, missing the not. My apologies to Brian. I've modified my post so it is clear I am tilting at windmills.
In Daune's piece on Royal, there are no factual errors, as far as I can tell, (except maybe the number of bolts placed on the first ascent of the Nose were "countless"), but there are editorial phrases which shape the reader's understanding of a story line that is focused on Warren.
This makes for a good story but is not good history and is not very respectful of Royal.
Do we really think that Warren "retaliated" against Royal's first ascent of Half Dome when he started up the Nose? Do we think that the second ascent ofthe Nose was the result of Royal being "disturbed" by the style of Warren's first ascent. Pretty much everything Royal climbed, he worked to do in a better style than whatever had come before. His repeated ascents of the Steck Salathe were improvements only over his previous ascents.
Would any of us describe Warren's ascent of the Nose as "retrograde?" I think Royal is on record that Warren's ascent was pretty much the only way to climb El Cap in 1957.
For a regular reader, at its center, Daune's piece tells us Royal's climbing was driven by besting Warren, until, finally, Warren's Dawn Wall ascent was so good that Royal could not.
Daune spends a paragraph with a pretty good summary of Royal's conclusion that first ascent teams had a responsibility to the broader community. Next paragraph: Warren thought that was pompous and ridiculous. I think that is probably a fair asessment of Warren's opinion. (That said, the goal of climbing without fixing was first achieved by Warren with Chuck and Yvon on Mount Watkins, in 1964, showing that at least up until that time Warren could strive for the same styles Royal advocated. But instead of following the broad path of how the climbing community absorbed Royal's idea of the first ascent team's responsibility, the path that shows why Royal had such a huge influence on climbing style and commitment, Daune makes a bee line for Royal's reawakening on the Dawn Wall.
What about the idea that striving for a better style on every ascent, while respecting the first ascent's style, was the goal we all learned to strive for. What about clean climbing? Working out the mechanics of big wall climbing? Writing the first and maybe still the best instruction books? The first bigwall solos? First 5.9s? First 5.10s? The great routes?
From a purely personal point of view, I don't like that all of Royal's accomplishments are just the preamble to his decision to stop chopping. It is sort of a cheap shot.
That said it would be unreasonable to hold Daune solely responsible: editors can rewrite and change the meaning of author's submissions.
I see that Kevin as posted my thoughts more eloquently.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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I do think you're right about the center of RR's life NOT being as Dan depicts.
Read that again, Roger. We are agreeing, I thought.
I've also thought that his life centered on his trying never to be like his stepfather nor his biological father. His rebellious nature as a young boy took the form of furthering free climbing standards with an almost in-your-face enthusiasm, as the readers of To Be Brave may see. This, in spite of his Boy Scouting.
His beatnik phase, shared with Joe Fitschen while they both served in the US Army as draftees, represents more rebelliousness.
Reading of a life is not participating in it. I cannot be an expert on RR, and I don't like it when some scholar takes on that mantle. Why should I like it when some journalist puts out "unwarrented" mention of dubious behavior by the subject? There is so much more Dan could have chosen to include.
edit: I read the MTM piece, too. There's a lot more "meat" to chew on in this piece, by comparison, IMO.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2018 - 04:17pm PT
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So sorry Brian. New, New Year's resolution: Read twice, cut once.
That said l will leave my post up with a few modifications. In writing that post, I worked through my own thoughts and have become upset at the idea of a great climber, flaws included, can so easily be diminished. It would be the same if Warren were remembered only for his 1975 first ascent of The Porcelain Wall, which he chopped as he climbed and not his great climbs.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I didn't know Royal, so won't comment on whatever personality flaws he may have had.
But there is a paragraph in that NYT piece that's just pure bullsh#t.
Harding retaliated by claiming the first ascent of El Capitan. In 45 days’ work spread over 18 months, Harding created the so-called Nose Route by keeping ropes always fixed from his high point to the ground, commuting up and down with food and wine, drilling countless bolts and basking in national publicity.
I seriously doubt that Warren Harding's desire to climb the nose was driven by a need to "retaliate" against anybody or anything. He just wanted to climb it. And, as to the whole thing being some kind of publicity stunt carried out for personal aggrandizement... I didn't know Warren, but I do know his main partner on that climb, and would suggest that all of you make it to the Oakdale Climber's Fest this fall, where I believe Wayne will be presenting a discussion/slideshow of that climb.
Might just open your eyes. It would sure as Hell open Daniel Duane's eyes.
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WBraun
climber
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I think he (Warren) lost it near the top.
I was aiding along on A1 crack, 1 inch size, and his rivets were right next to the crack, lol.
Porter said the same thing when he got there and started chopping some of em.
His partner's (Caldwell) leads were much better and you tell who lead what just by the amount of unnecessary rivets you'd encounter .....
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Interesting reactions.
Pretty much the same unknowing ignorance that we express when laypeople express opinions about climbing, I suppose.
First, a hell of a lot of people died in 2017, that they would have included Royal, when he was a person who can reasonably be said made no difference in most people's lives, is really an honor.
So what, in the very limited space allotted, does one say? Is it reasonable to report in a newspaper, what the person did that was newsworthy in their time? How would you do that? Remembering that we're all biased, an unbiased person would probably go to the newspaper record, and see what was written. Probably nothing about river kayaking. Probably nothing about being an importer of climbing gear. Understanding that if you don't write something thought to appeal to one's customers, it won't get published, do you say "better that they'd not written about him, at all"?
Perhaps Patrick can weigh in with his experience (hoping that he omits his resume, again, and how tough Maggie Thatcher is, again......)
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WBraun
climber
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He dropped all the 1 inch angles after being drunk for weeks?
Ho mannn.
I forgot to ask him about that during that winter he lived right next to me .....
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WBraun
climber
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Probably ......
Yep .... probably the whole rack was at the base by then anyways ..... :-)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
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Ken M, what to write about Royal to a non-climbing readership is a good question.
Much of what Daune wrote works. What I would eliminate is the focus on Warren and sustitute Royal's dominance of Yosemite climbing for about 10 years starting in 1957. I'd tell the readers that there were lots of potential routes to climb but no clear path to decide what to climb, how to get up them safely and in what style. Robbins defined the importance of style--our rule book--and honoring the efforts of first ascents and created a flexible framework for climbing to expand its boundries.
Robbins pushed every boundry and articulated how to think the issues through. And he did it so well that the latest masterpieces, Dawn Wall all free and Salathe free solo, unthinkable in the 1950s and 1960s, still adhere to his princpals of boldness, safety and stylistic coherency.
I would start the piece with Half Dome but in 1955 when Wilson led Robbins, Gallwas, Harding on an attempt. Wilson stopped the effort because they were too slow but Robbins and Harding chaffed being told what to do.
I would include Royal's many ascents of the Steck Salathe doing more of it free and in faster times to articulate his vision and drive.
A writer could blow that trumpet as loud as decorum allows and as long as space allows. Royal's dominance was unparalleled.
This is not to say that climbing would be substantially different today but for Royal. My guess it would look pretty much the same. But if this is true, then Royal was one farsighted visionary.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Before this Duane article was published, the NY Times called me to ask if they could interview me with regard to my being Royal's belayer on the WEML.
I always find it annoying that, though I did belay Royal, he also belayed me. We swapped leads up the entire climb - at no point did either of us opt out of our next lead, nor did either of us ask to lead a particular pitch, we just alternated leads to the top.
The NY Times person told me the name of the author of the upcoming article and I replied that I sort of knew Daniel Duane. They replied, in that case, can he interview you? Of course!
I really didn't "know" Daniel Duane - what I knew was that Allan Bard had taught both Daniel and Daniel's brother how to ski and Allan had mentioned that to me many times. I had also read Daniel Duane's book "Caught Inside".
When he called me last week all he wanted to know was exactly when and what Royal said when the decision to quit chopping was made. I told him that I couldn't remember his words - that I could only say that Royal felt the climbing was harder than he gave Warren's capabilities credit for.
Duane kept pushing his own idea that Royal felt the climbing was very difficult - I can't remember any extraordinary difficulty on the entire climb - it was just El Cap nailing and I recall no difficulty with it other than dodging huge 6-foot icicles coming off the summit. Except for Royal's first bivouac decision to stop chopping, I don't remember Royal ever complaining about difficulty. It was an El Cap wall, it was not supposed to be easy.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2018 - 08:24pm PT
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"...just El Cap nailing," said the man who, with Dennis Hennek, did the 2nd acsent of the North American Wall.
Dear Mr. Lauria,
Thank you for your submission for our upcoming issue, "The Lives They Lived: Royal Robbins 'He Earsed His Soul in a Climbing Battle with a Rival" (Working title only.)
We are sorry that we are not able to accept your banal characterisation of climbing the WOEML as just El Cap "nailing" and find your failure to remember Mr. Robbins' existential angst when he finally recognized the horrendous difficulties in ascending Mr. Harding's route less than compelling.
While we accept that climbers are sticklers for the truth, in our continued search for the most compelling ways to tell stories, our current editorial guidelines allow fake news if it is believed this will provide our readers with a more authentic experience.
Sincerely,
NYTimes Sunday Magazine
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dear Mr. Lauria,
Thank you for your submission...
LOL. Funniest fake news of the new year.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Thanks, Roger, both for posting this and for that bit of wit just above.
It was nice to see a climber so honoured, however imperfectly. Simply that the New York Times chose to include Royal as an "important American" who died in 2017 is impressive.
I agree that a lot more could might have been said about Royal, to truly illustrate his life, climbs and values. There was much more to him than the WOEML incident, and as humans, we all have feet of clay at times. Royal was the first to admit when he didn't measure up to his own standards, as on Tis-sa-ack.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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I knew Royal pretty well during the 'Golden Age'...shared camps and climbs and philosophy discussions....
I also knew Harding, though not as well...and some people around here get very annoyed at some of the stories I know...so just leave them rest...
I don't think this article at all does justice to either of them or captures the spirit of the times.
...but that's about what I would expect from the New York Times, which I normally rarely read.
...and years ago I've had occasions to visit the chief editor in his office and discuss such things.
So it happened by chance that I sat down over coffee and read most of this issue, arriving by surprise to the article about Royal.
I found most of the articles that I read in the issue to be mediocre, heavily biased and poorly researched...reinforcing why I rarely read it...
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duncan
climber
London, UK
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This piece appears to be derived from Valley Uprising and similarly lacks nuance. It is a shame that Robbins' life has been so oversimplified when it was clearly far more complex and interesting.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I believe the author encapsulates Robbin’s personality pretty well. I also think that Harding was done a disservice being described as Robbin’s “alcoholic rival” without having his personality fleshed out.
Lastly, I agree with others that the Robbins/Harding rivalry was one aspect of his career and should not be the centerpiece for what, to all intents, is an obituary in a national publication.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Royal on his WEML quandary:
“So I was faced with this existential problem which I could see quite clearly: Should I act for the sake of consistency, which would certainly bring me harsh criticism, or should I stop something I now felt was wrong – and by doing so look like a fool? I decided I had to stop. Because if my actions were going to be motivated solely by consideration of what people might think, I was finished anyway. So I talked to Don in the morning, and that’s what we did.”
He later expressed:
“… it looked right at the time, and the iron was hot, so we took the risk that we might turn out to be doing the wrong thing. But everyone makes mistakes. I’m happy to admit this was one.”
As to the so-called Robbins/Harding “rivalry” that I think implied “dislike”, Royal offered:
“Although the climb might not have been done exactly to our taste, and although we might have fretful little criticisms that envy always produces, we can better spend our energy in ways other than ripping and tearing, or denigrating the accomplishments of others … I admire Harding because he is a great exponent of individualism, which I think is one of the most important features of climbing. It’s one of the things I came into climbing for … He has always been a loner, and in these days of conformity, of the death of individualism, of joiners and organizations, of group assertion, it is refreshing to see the crusty, intense, eccentric individualism of a Harding. Good to have a man around who doesn’t give a damn what the establishment thinks. As our sport becomes more institutionalized, Harding stands out as a magnificent maverick.”
One of the best discussions of the whole WEML thing (from which I’ve drawn these quotes) is found in Gary Arce’s Defying Gravity, pages 89-92. Check it out.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Thanks Don.
You prove again that it is always better to let climbers write about climbing.
Warren and I had some good times and some less so, but he will always be a hero.
I only had a little contact with Royal but the same goes for him.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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The writer has little to contribute. And does so very well.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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I don't or didn't mean to disparage Daniel Duane's writing. I've bought and read two of his books, both about climbing, and gotten another from the library. I'm pretty sure he's an OK dude, from what I've found.
He's been a climber for decades and knows the ropes. Technical parts of his books hold water.
I'm not here to criticize his style, however, as sycorax has. The points he made were valid, to be sure.
In the final analysis, everyone has editorial problems until they find a good one. That's who should shoulder blame if blame is to be dished out--the editor of the piece.
Don, gr-r-reat input, have a nice day.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Media loves spectacle and controversy. NYT is no exception.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Intersting and really cool to hear the feelings of folks who were there at the time. From someone who only knows of these things by what I have read the rivalry angle is nothing new. Read about that more than once. like it or not if you are going to chop someones rout you will be remembered for that deed and yes it will quite possibly overshadow many of your accomplishments.. Not saying that it is right or wrong just that it is what it is... The rivalry has been written about enough that to someone who was not there at the time perhaps it has become fact...
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WBraun
climber
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As our sport becomes more institutionalized
Definitely institutionalized, st00pid fuking brainwashed robots masquerading themselves as human beings .....
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dee ee
Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
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Clearly Daniel Duane didn't do either man justice but I still admire and love both of them.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Media loves spectacle and controversy.
So do readers. And climbers.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Media loves spectacle and controversy.
So do readers
And . . . . . . that's why media loves spectacle and controversy!
See, that wasn't so hard.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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The Times published two different pieces about Mr. Robbins at the time of his death and now a third at the end of 2017, so maybe regular readers do in fact have a full picture.
I know Dan casually and he is a good guy and legit climber. I think this piece missed the mark somewhat but maybe it made a better impression on non climbers.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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great thread. [thanks]
as per the article?
seemed to me to be structurally based myth making intended for the greater stage...
with ultimately nothing more nor nothing less to offer.
and so equal parts trite in its content and boring in its necessity.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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**And . . . . . . that's why media loves spectacle and controversy!
See, that wasn't so hard.**
Changing the rules in the middle of a game, John?
By the way, if you ever do identify this media that you mention, please let us know.
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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Foremost, appreciation to NYT for including Dad in an "important" issue, and the respect inherently given by doing so.
Next, a disclaimer that I have not yet read every post in this thread. Thus said, am both chuckling and in agreement overall. Those who are my "friends" on facebook may have read my brief intro to posting the latest NYT link.
My impression of Duane is that he has done a respectable quantity of writing about Yosemite climbing, but beyond that we are not familiar. The focus on the Harding/Robbins (mythological) "war" is exaggerated, but perhaps something that non-climbers can grasp and be interested in (as with Valley Uprising).
For the wonderful sense of humor generally exhibited in this forum, I will share that the "fact checker" for the NYT called prior to publication. The article, had we not spoken, would have also stated that "when not climbing, Royal enjoyed reading R.W. Emerson and taking ballroom dancing classes...."
Those who don't instantly grasp the humor therein will likely be advised by those who do....
Cheers all ;)
PS a correlation between Chuck Berry and RR's "blue suede shoes" would have been pretty epic....
PPS Lauria's input is obviously as close to reality as one can get, having shared in the experience. The quotations of Dad's that Don cited are accurate, and indicative of RR's perspective about that matter - and the overall consideration he took in approaching (pun intended) everything in life.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2018 - 02:07pm PT
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Tamara, I cannot believe that you dissuaded the Times from publishing that your Dad took ballroom dancing lessons!!! This is clearly a missed opportunity: it's true even if it didn't happen.
Best, Roger
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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Lol Roger.... You may have a point there.....
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jan 18, 2018 - 11:15am PT
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I consider Robbins and Harding to be the yin and yang of Valley climbing, each containing a bit of the opposite, but together, seeding the continuing dichotomy that is the essential paradox of climbing there - selfish, self-absorbed crazed fanatics push standards with zero concern for other climbers, history, or the resource, while climbing next to, and sometimes with, zen purists who impose the strictest criteria on themselves, and nevertheless occasionally push the standards anyway. Both Robbins and Harding deserve and generally receive admiration and respect for their boundary shattering, pioneering creations, and climbers have accepted that each was a far more complicated and nuanced person than even they might have admitted, sometimes behaving as if savoring the stereotypes they had created.
Limiting this set piece to rehashing a period when climbing had a rare high publicity moment forty years ago, a moment involving Harding's and not Robbins' climb, serves the memory or legacy of neither man. A better writer could have given the general public a glimpse into the background of climbing, the scope of Robbins' milestones, and how he influenced both the technical and stylistic standards, and finally the underlying philosophy of modern climbing, moving it from a 1950's Corps of Engineers conquest mentality, to a personal, internal challenge which continues through the Caldwells and Honnolds of today.
This piece is not a result of editing, as the entire focus is on the old Dawn Wall saga, and most revealing perhaps, with nary a mention that this is the very same wall Tommy Caldwell freed, in an even more intensely publicized event. Tommy's inspiration might have a bit of Harding madness in it, but the Robbins' influence is clear in Tommy's aspiration, to set the bar impossibly high, where success was never assured, and where justifications were never allowed to corrode the ideal, or allow compromises.
That may be the most enduring element in Robbins' legacy, and this article only cheapened and demeaned it, in passing.
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Jan 18, 2018 - 11:59am PT
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I've read all of Duane's books and I think he's very good writer. But this article is weird from the get-go. I mean, why is it necessary to call out Harding as an alcoholic (in a remembrance in which he should not be center-stage)? I can only offer a couple caveats (which are not a defense of the piece). One, we, ie, anyone on ST, are not the presumptive audience for the piece; we know too much (but in a way that makes it worse!). And, two: these NY Times pieces are not obituaries at all. They're some weird hybrid nebulous form written with a good deal of subjectivity.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 18, 2018 - 01:48pm PT
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Duane is an excellent writer. Mainstream media puts a premium on conflict, so focusing on RR's rhubarbs with Harding was an obvious choice, though not one that would probably satisfy a niche audience.
Adventure personalities are usually interpreted as warriors, and since a warrior needs an opponent, it often plays out in one of three ways: Man against Man; Man against Nature; and the best of them all, Man against himself.
Robbins always chased an idea, and tired to live up to it. Therein lies the story we all wanted to hear, because in the trying he laid down a path that few can ever follow, and which inspired several generations of climbers.
But times change. When I was up in Yosemite during the Dawn Wall FFA, I was amazed that many in the meadow, including full time climbers, knew little to nothing about RR.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 18, 2018 - 02:13pm PT
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Why not a tribute to his vision in the form of noting the major firsts he did
Because it's the NYT not Rock & Ice
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 18, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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It always makes me laugh when someone quotes RR's excuse for not finishing his chopping mission.
For anyone who has chopped bolts, which is more likely: that Robbins had some kind of conversion like St. Paul, or that he got tired and that chopping the entire route wasn't worth the sweat considering he already made his point?
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 18, 2018 - 03:30pm PT
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Ballo,
To refer to Royal’s reasons for stopping the chopping as his “excuses” may be a misuse of the word. An excuse implies “something offered as justification or as grounds for being excused”. Royal’s reasons, as quoted above, I believe, offer no hint of justifying or of asking to be excused. He merely admitted a mistake – “a wrong action proceeding from faulty judgment”.
Neither of us complained of fatigue, nor did we adopt a new religious philosophy, we just climbed on despite the folly of the first day.
After the first bivouac, the "chopping" was never discussed. I, personally, never gave it a second thought. I was oblivious to Royal's inner conflict if it was actually gnawing at him as we proceeded. Most of his introspection must have occurred on the bivouacs, after dinner, and without discussion.
To paraphrase Yvon, "Climbing with Robbins is no fun - you know you're going to make it."
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 18, 2018 - 04:12pm PT
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"Excuses" is probably a misuse, but you can remove the term "excuses" without removing the crux of my question.
I'm not dogging the man; I appreciate his ideals. The whole story just seems easier to explain without the moral conflict given what a PITA it is to remove a hundred bolts. Not saying that's how it happened and I appreciate your first hand recollection.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2018 - 07:27pm PT
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Last weekend I read a few of the memorials in the Times Magazine. A few I knew about, Glen Campbell, others, I had never heard of. They all tried to capture the primary story about the person, all told in evocative ways. I just made me sad. Our guy seemed to be singled out for misrepresentation.
I think in the same number of words, using many of the same words, Royal's uniqueness as an individual and his lasting imprint on all of us could have been told, effectively, to the same readers.
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okay, whatever
climber
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Jan 19, 2018 - 05:00am PT
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I'd vote for "Tis-sa-Ack", his account of both his and Don Peterson's feelings (the latter told as though Peterson was speaking/writing, though it was Robbins' interpretation of Peterson's feelings, of course, that appeared on the page) on their ascent of that route on Half Dome, as his most interesting piece of writing. He also "spoke" for some others that had been involved in attempts on the route, in that piece. He at least tried to be objective about himself in writing it, whether successfully or not.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Jan 19, 2018 - 08:17am PT
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While the Times article/obituary is disappointing, though not surprisingly so, the most troubling thing to me in this thread is Largo's comment above, that at the time of the Dawn Wall FFA that many in the crowd in the Meadows "including full time climbers...knew little or nothing of RR". Think of that in Yosemite, even full time climbers who are so unaware of our history. I can understand it for 'gym rats', but "full time climbers" IN YOSEMITE!!!!
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 19, 2018 - 08:23am PT
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The Chauvinist at Tahquitz was a Mark Powell route with the typical Powell "5.7" friction.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2018 - 10:32am PT
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Kevin, I share your sense of what it was like to climb one of Royal's routes, but I think that only those of us climbing so soon after Royal's fist ascents and who were also starting to work on their own first ascents would wonder at Royal's skill and drive. Within a few years, there were other more impressive routes to wonder at. Royal's best routes were bold and sort of outlandish from a first ascent perspective and as Bridwell said, they were always put together really well.
Just taking Meat Grinder as an example, I always thought that it was the most frightening route at The Cookie to think about leading before the Nabisco Wall pitches were climbed. I thought this even as I was doing other Cookie climbs which were just as steep.
For a sense of perspective, here is a list of the climbs on The Cookie, with the FA date and party. In February 1968, Royal and Lloyd climbed the left and right sides of The Cookie slab, both rated 5.9, and in March, Royal returned with TM and climbed the Meatgrinder, rated 5.10. Sometime in 1968, Royal and Galen free-climbed the Vendetta. The only other climb at The Cookie that looked less probable than The Meatgrinder , in 1968, was Pratt's Twilight Zone which had been done in 1965. The Meatgrinder certainly set the stage for those climbing in the early 70s, but I don't think it sets the stage after the Nabisco Wall was climbed.
So, I think that Royal's legacy is the combination of his climbing and his writing about the process of climbing, especially first ascents, and its relationship to the broader climbing community. Harding and Pratt both climbed stunning new routes but did not contribute to an interior understanding of putting them up. Sacherer, who changed everything, didn't say a peep. Royal's writing certainly sets him apart from all of his climbing peers, probably even today. It certainly reached many more climbers. It was not just his formal writing, it was also what he said, and didn't say, in public about climbing, climbers, and the climbing community. I cannot find the exact quote, but sometime when Summit Magazine was still the main source of climbing news, I recall Royal writing some sort of appeasement to Warren and ending it with "Now are you finally satisfied?" His exasperation was palpable. (I hope my memory is correct; I edit this if someone finds the actual quote.)
There is also a quote in one of his long interviews, I think in an early Ascent, where there was a discussion about the prospective negative effects guide books were having on climbing, and Royal offered that he liked to see his name in print. Given the public vibe of selflessness at the time, his honesty was stunning. Royal was so transparent, or seemingly so, and he thought hard about the nature of climbing and nature of our climbing community, and he wrote about it or discussed it persuasively in published interviews. Interestingly, when I was working as one of his guides, I don't recall him ever lecturing anyone on climbing ethics or greater responsibilities (I never attended any of Royal's public lectures), nor do I ever recall him making derogatory remarks about anyone. He certainly held strong views that he had thought hard about, but he established a professionalized form and tone to express them. To my memory, no other climber has come close. (This is not to say that other climbers have not done as much to support great climbing: we all benefited from Bridwell's mastery of leadership and all-inclusiveness.
I am not entirely sure of this, but I think that a modern climber could read Royal's writings and they would still resonate as issues that matter, even if climbing changed radically since those times.
On a personal note, one that I have only reflected since the NYTimes profile/obit, I realize that Royal's commitment to good writing affected me. Roper and Pratt, and my Mom, taught me to write, but Royal had cleared a path showing that writing carefully and well mattered. Even if my friends thought I was whacked for caring. I was an easy target of ridicule as I was trying to learn, but in my own private memorial to Royal, I have realized that he, in his quite way, gave me solid support, as I figured out how to wrap language around my thoughts, and how that required wrapping clarity around those thoughts.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jan 19, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
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Chouinard and Roper attempt on the Salathe Wall 1962
"Concerning the the fifth pitch which involved bold free climbing, provisionally rated at 5.10 just above some long reaches between rurps and bolts. Yvon's too short; Steve's too chickensh#t, he said without mincing words. Furious about this admittedly brilliant line, we stormed up this section in minutes. It happened to be my pitch, and I was elated."F*#k you, Robbins!" I screamed to the heavens."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 19, 2018 - 06:04pm PT
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Roper, who else?^^^^^
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jan 19, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
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But of course, who else!
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jan 19, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
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Don't forget that Robbins did a solo ascent of the north face of Mt. Edith Cavell. Audacious and impressive.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jan 19, 2018 - 07:35pm PT
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Royal Royal Royal Royal Royal Royal Royal Royal Royal...................................
Roper Quotes Royal....................
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Yeti
Trad climber
Ketchum, Idaho
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Jan 19, 2018 - 08:01pm PT
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My understanding is that "C*#ks@cker's Concerto" was the more traditional Chuck Pratt's response to Royal's new and clean ethic involving protection, as well as a Pratt (all in good humor, of course) dig at Royal's dirt bag sophistication in naming "Nutcracker Suite." Both routes are as good and intriguing as their names.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
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It is also my recollection that C*#ks@cker's Concerto was Chuck's name. It sounds like Chuck. He didn't like no-pins climbing, he didn't like pretense, and as the owner of many, many, many classical 33 LP records, he knew the music that Royal's Nutcracker Suite referred to. I always thought CS Concerto was crude and seems to have given licence to name a nearby route Fecaphilia.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 12:12am PT
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As long as we're talking about it, I did the 2nd ascent of C.S. Concerto with Yvon on June 11,1967. He insisted that I do this really neat new route 15 minutes after he had led me into the depths of Tweedle Dee.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 20, 2018 - 12:16am PT
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I don't know anyone who's done Tweedle Dee, I went to look at it once and was convinced it wasn't going to go well for me
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 21, 2018 - 10:52am PT
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"There’s more than one quote there, doctor Hartouni,..."
that's Dr. Ed to you... Warbler
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 21, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
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I have a recollection that it was originally Nutcracker Sweet in line with Royal's love of puns.
C S Concerto was definitely Chuck's name and certainly made Roper happy along with other Pratt names like Chingando which allowed Steve to use one of his favorite words and pastime in print.
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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Feb 15, 2018 - 07:59pm PT
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Hartouni, laughing at your response regarding Roper quote.... ;)
Everyone, I have recently come across a 30 page epic personal reflection that Dad wrote about the Dawn Wall event (an event which has gained mythological momentum, the more coverage it gets).
I'm saving sharing his reflections for a later time, but suffice to say that the internal (anguished) debates he had before, during, and after, very clearly indicate how seriously he took that endeavor. Lauria has eluded to such in his replies here, I believe. Dad had both respect and good will towards Harding, his issue was with the precedent that Harding's ascent would set in regard to Yosemite climbing standards/ethics. That aspect of the Dawn Wall, in the strange recent media coverage has been largely sacrificed for the sensationalism of their personal "rivalry".
Warren and Caldwell put up a route that, regardless of the bolts, took immense tenacity and commitment. Dad and Lauria, from a place of well-intended efforts to preserve a certain quality of Yosemite climbing, had to not only re-climb that route, but wrestle with all sorts of personal / philosophical questions along the way.
It's an epic story, and hopefully will be retold with a broader perspective sometime in the future.....
Cheers ;)
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