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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 17, 2017 - 08:11am PT
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Agree. Well written, and very personal. That took a lot to put out there.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2017 - 09:49am PT
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@xCon: Such a troll.
free pass tommy and her got on murder
So do you call, say, killing an intruder who seems to have every intention of killing you and/or your family "murder"? This was simple self-preservation. Oh brave one behind the screen, how would YOU have handled it? Remember, their captors had ALREADY EXECUTED SOMEONE during their captivity. Rodden et al. had every good reason to believe that would be their fate. Yeah, I give them one hell of a big pass. What they did took tremendous courage. Take a hike, punter.
BAd
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 17, 2017 - 10:07am PT
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Parenting starts when you let those sprouts out from under your own shadow, and let them find themselves. Maybe their families support was mis-directed? to be/go pro, 1st, confidence and poise has to come from with-in - a place where doubt and control balance with confidence 1st?
but what do I know?
I'm crushed that the genetics were transferred to my children; both climbed the walls and rocks as kids. As the years have passed so has the love of climbing. May be getting it all, all to fast?
PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL, IT IS SAD THAT THE YOUNG MAN SURVIVED TO HAVE TO FACE THE MUSIC FROM HIS TRIBE,
BE GLAD, AND LIONIZE THE CHILDREN OF OUR TRIBE! aND BE PROUD, THAT WE HAVE HAS SUCH SOULS TO BOTH SURVIVE AND THRIVE. . .
GREAT CLIMBERS BOTH TOGETHER AND APART.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 17, 2017 - 10:25am PT
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Wonderful piece. Working in the first person is tricky. Tends to be the me-myself-and I show and she did a nice job with it.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 17, 2017 - 11:04am PT
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Very good article.
There was an article a few years back about how she took a lead fall, suffered a concussion, and was still suffering the effects months later. Did she make a full recovery?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2017 - 03:58pm PT
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Of course she couldn't hit on everything, but I know, too, that she went through a pretty serious shoulder injury and surgery that took a lot of rehab. She's a resilient, tough woman. It's really cool to see that her life is working out.
BAd
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 17, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
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ive always thought that the free pass tommy and her got on murder at the time was telling
You think? That's a revelation.
So you think a person who is kidnapped at gunpoint has no right to escape, causing severe injury or death to the kidnapper in the process?
You DO NOT know what was intended. MAYBE kidnapping, was that what they told you when you interviewed them? Maybe kidnapping after rape? Maybe rape and dispose of the evidence? Who knows?
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 17, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
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they were going to be ransomed. their captures had zero interest in any harm coming to them. fear of being murdered was unreasonable even for the kids they were at the time
Wow! This is a brand new psychological disorder. It’s like some kind of Pre-Stockholm Syndrome by proxy.
One can never know what a kidnaper will do, and even if the plan is to ransom the hostage, that could change to rape and/or murder as the circumstances change.
I think the hostage should work off of the assumption that the kidnaper will certainly murder him or her eventually. Then the hostage should decide if he or she would rather die or take the life of the kidnaper for a chance to survive.
Then if the hostage has the will and the opportunity, the hostage should try to escape, and if that requires injuring or killing the kidnaper, they should do so.
Excellent article by Beth Rodden.
edit
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
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Beth and Tommy two very fine human beings.
Thanks Beth ....
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katiebird
climber
yosemite
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Dec 17, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
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Bump for some excellent writing and exposing oneself with such honesty.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 17, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
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It's funny. Maybe all of our most important climbing stories are really stories of growing up.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 17, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
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Pushing the teen over the cliff was understandable given their fear and immaturity, but spinning it as a heroic coming of age adventure was not the best. Glad the guy survived..I,d love to hear his story
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2017 - 08:02pm PT
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Wow! This is a brand new psychological disorder. It’s like some kind of Pre-Stockholm Syndrome by proxy
I was thinking the exact same thing... lol...
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Dec 17, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
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I thought that he was executed by the Kyrgyzstan government
I remember reading that somewhere too. All I can find in a search now is a story by Greg Child from 2003, that mentions meeting Ravshan Sharipov, the guy Tommy pushed off the cliff, in his cell in Bishkek where he was awaiting his death sentence:
https://www.outsideonline.com/1821591/back-edge
and from Greg Child's book about the incident: https://tinyurl.com/y7uq2m5b
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 18, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
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If somebody has you at gunpoint and is ordering you around, and previously that kidnapper head shot another person in cold blood, you might not like killing the kidnapper, but he laid down the rules of engagement and only the person who does not value their own life simply lets the kidnapper has his own way, based on abstract principals.
Maybe "hero" does not apply to Tommy in this regards, though an argument could be made that "cowardice" or fear-frozen would apply to the person unable to act on their own behalf. The notion that you can reason with such a terrorist is probably just a notion. Why chance it.
I hope I'd have the sac to do what Tommy did, knowing I'd probably hate myself for doing so, but then, we'd all still be alive.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 18, 2017 - 12:26pm PT
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Nice coming-of-age story in a context of climbing.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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Dec 18, 2017 - 12:29pm PT
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Glad the guy survived..I,d love to hear his story While you will never hear the IMU soldier telling "his" story, you can still hear another person's "his" story -- TC laid out the events in great details in his book, The Push. I don't think anyone has the right to pass judgement without having been through the ordeal themselves.
BTW, Beth Rodden's article was put out only weeks before the book came out. Both her article and his book exposed a lot of raw emotions, and I give kudos to both of them. I think readers ought to read both as well.
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Dec 18, 2017 - 01:59pm PT
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Well written, bravely introspective, nice job, Beth. Life is a journey, no doubt about it. I hope you continue to thrive amidst the chaos, Beth.
ceers
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 18, 2017 - 02:24pm PT
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I remember reading that somewhere too. All I can find in a search now is a story by Greg Child from 2003, that mentions meeting Ravshan Sharipov, the guy Tommy pushed off the cliff, in his cell in Bishkek where he was awaiting his death sentence:
https://www.outsideonline.com/1821591/back-edge
and from Greg Child's book about the incident: https://tinyurl.com/y7uq2m5b
I was searching also, and all I found was stories stating that he was on death row. I do not find anything saying he was executed. I don't see anything saying he was freed either.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 18, 2017 - 02:26pm PT
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Tommy deserves a medal for saving the team from the terrorists.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 18, 2017 - 04:04pm PT
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WOW! powerfull read.
total douch move to judge someones actions in a life and death situation while you hide behind an avatar.......
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Dec 18, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
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^^^ Though awful, what does all of that have to do with the facts about what happened? Are you saying thst because of atrocities allegedly committed by some of (the worst of) our countrymen that they should have had sympathy for their captor?
Edit to add, really great article.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 18, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
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lot of f*#ked up people in the world. many of the hiding behind avatars....
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 18, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
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In the off chance that Beth R. reads any of this. THANKS for writing that!!!! I loved the personal relationship and climbing perspectives. From my considerably different perspective of a 60++ year old male, yeah we all have to re-visit a tons of decisions, but I think you're great.
I hope you/she is still climbing (sounds like it) and LIKING it.
OK, if I had my way I would only let Tami, jgill, and Largo post to ST, but that would be a mistake, but OMG there is a lot of chaff here. And Haan, but he hasn't shown up in this thread.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Dec 18, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
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I read this when it first came out. It was certainly worth a reread. So well written.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 18, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
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I'd feel a lot older if she didn't still look like she was 18.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Dec 18, 2017 - 10:57pm PT
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Beautiful film by Graham Zimmerman up thread there. Thanks for sharing that. And beautiful article by Beth. Our "sport" is lucky to have characters like both she and TC.
And add me to the list of posters who think xCon is a bit of a loser.
Scott
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Dec 18, 2017 - 11:25pm PT
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XCon,
My advice is to practice keeping your thoughts to yourself. You have zero ability to empathize nor to engage in basic logic or critical thinking. Combining that with your firm confidence in your own beliefs and assertations is a truly embarrassing display. I’ll skip any conversation we are ever presented with the option of.
“Pentagon approved narrative”, Lol, for starters.
I’m the only person here who knows what happened there. Your words are wind and not even a hot one.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 07:22am PT
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So ......
Who is xCon?
xCon .... are you saying their story was fabricated and made up?
Who are you?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 07:24am PT
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A useless sack of discontent and trollery. He can go back into his hole anytime. The rest of us will continue to admire Rodden for her courage, strength and honesty, and xCon will continue to be a miserable sack of complaints and grievances.
BAd
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Dec 19, 2017 - 09:16am PT
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outside knows their MARKET
Reads like a people magazine article on climbing royalty.
Must have been hard for her write about some real personal stuff; maybe that's the price of being a celebrity.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 19, 2017 - 09:27am PT
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I thought the Greg Child article in Outside well nuanced and researched.
Much respect for Beth, Tommy, and Tami.
Be sure to read Tommy's book.
But the Western knowledge of that part of the world is incomplete.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 19, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
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I always thought the story was fishy...
I've got a pretty thick foil hat myself but can't understand why a small group of 20-something year old naive American tourists getting kidnapped would be that much of a stretch to imagine or have anything to do with some larger nefarious plot.
And they pushed one of their captors off a cliff... Good... Pushed, stabbed, shot, strangled.. whatever... You do what you have to do to survive and/or escape.
Nice article btw. I often wondered how she felt trying to keep up with that inhuman climbing machine, Tommy! I remember her jugging up some sufferfest with him when she had the broken ankle and thought to myself that just can't be cool back at home.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Dec 19, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
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^^^ So what do you think happened? It was a big conspiracy to sell advertisements through outdoor media and funnel money to a despot?
Confusing to say the least. Bullsh!t to put it lightly.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 19, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
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I find it difficult to believe they did not know anything about possible dangers in the area. They interacted with no one who knew there was hostility in the area? I don't buy that for a second.
Kids that age, they want to see that kind of stuff.
Sure, I can see an influence of xCon's perspective playing out - a story of survival sounds better than one of naivety. It doesn't matter, though, they got themselves an adventure out it, for sure, and it's their story to tell and they have the right to spin it however they want. Same with anyone reporting on it.
These people questioning pushing the guy - that absolutely does not compute with me. I would have shot the guy, chopped him up and ate him if had to for survival - fuk that - there goes dinner and a bunch of supplies off the cliff, wtf did you do Tommy?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 19, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
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Is takeing a working vacation in a combat zone stupid? hell yea it is and that angle was played pretty hard by lots of people at the time. Is their story as they told it believeable? hell yea. did that story get exploited by the powers that be? of course. That is their job. Its what they do but that certainly is no fault of the kids that got kidnapped. Is Tommy a hero for not only pushing the guard off a mountain trail and enableing his team to escape but also for then helping them find government troops and making contact without getting killed. That was probobly the only way they come home alive. Is ex con an as#@&%e for pinning the deeds of the corupt governments on these kids? absolutly!
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 05:37pm PT
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@JLP: I think there WAS a State Dept. warning about the area, but they pushed on anyway--young, immortal, super accomplished--not hard to understand why.
BAd
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:04pm PT
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I thank all the saints and lucky charms I never experienced what she did in Asia.
Amen to that.
When the kidnap made the news my interest in the story was low. Just recently a friend directed me to the Greg Child piece about it. I was quite surprised by how long the ordeal lasted. The cold, the danger, and the hunger went on for days.
It was extremely difficult psychologically for Tommy to push the guy off the cliff. He felt the complete opposite of a hero, and was crying and begging Beth to forgive him for what he had done.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
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An interesting, open and honest article.
I hope it helps bring her some peace of mind.
It seems that the main cause of the Beth-Tommy breakup was simply from marrying young and growing apart. They accomplished a lot as climbing partners and probably more, no doubt. But when climbing is not as fun due to injuries and feeling obligated to help be a partner on projects even when injured, plus your spouse is mainly motivated by climbing, it might not feel like the marriage you had possibly once imagined as a kid.
I hope Beth and Tommy continue to find happiness with their new spouses, kids, climbing and the other good things in life.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Dec 20, 2017 - 08:58pm PT
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I don’t recall Kyrgyzstan being considered particularly dangerous at that time, and pre-9/11 I don’t think westerners were regularly targets of kidnapping and violence. I know going to that part of the world isn’t exactly like visiting the Dolomites but it wasn’t always a guaranteed life or death encounter with the Taliban or whatever.
I enjoyed the article, she really put herself out there.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Dec 20, 2017 - 09:03pm PT
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Thank you Beth Rodden for sharing your profoundly human story. You are a strong person to get to where you are . . . best wishes to you on your journey.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Dec 21, 2017 - 07:21am PT
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Well done Beth, this is as true and honest as it gets.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Dec 21, 2017 - 10:52am PT
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I admire her for putting out in public something so deeply felt and honest.
Best wishes for a happy life.
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Medved
climber
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Dec 21, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
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Good article. Props to Rodden for her honest introspection.
The Karavshin in southern Kyrgyzstan in 2000 was a no go zone. Four Japanese geologists were taken hostage in the south the previous summer. The area was widely understood to be outside government control and overrun with militants. How Rodden and Caldwell could get all the beta on the Karavshin yet not know what everyone in the Kyrgyzstan climbing community knew at the time is a bit of a mystery.
Caldwell's discussion of the danger in The Push is puzzling: "Back home, the State Department had issued an advisory against travel in Kyrgyzstan, but that seemed so improbable that we felt right for having ignored it. It called conditions in the region "fluid and potentially dangerous." Like everywhere, right?"
... not like everywhere, and not like everywhere in Kyrgyzstan. The local climbing community headed to the northeast mountains that summer; as much as we wanted to go, we all steered clear of the Karavshin.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2017 - 07:00am PT
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Thanks, Medved. That was my recollection. Youthful denial and we're-immortal thinking, I'm sure, something we've all been guilty of. Let's hope that climbers now are paying attention to such warnings. I wonder if there were any warnings out before that terrible attack at Nanga Parbat. As a Westerner, and an American in particular, I would be extraordinarily careful about traveling in the Muslim world, especially the "stans."
BAd
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 22, 2017 - 08:04am PT
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Meh - it’s not like a bunch of guys lost their lives trying to rescue them. No harm, no foul.
Not sure how I would have reacted myself, but I think I would have been more aware that what happened was a consequence of my decision to go there.
Jason Smith and John Dickey seemed to have a lot less to say on the matter.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Dec 22, 2017 - 08:27am PT
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This is an excellent article. A great job by Beth.
I hope she can continue to find a path that brings her happiness.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 23, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
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I was at the press conference in Davis at Rocknasium a few days after Beth and Tommy returned home. Beth still had the goat cheese they had been living off during their captivity in her pocket. She scarfed some and offered me a taste. It was the nastiest goo Ive ever smelled. The poor girl was still in shock and suffering from post traumitic stress. Ive known Beth and Tommy almost twenty years. In that time Ive known them to be people of high moral standards. We are all human and its terribly difficult for people of their celebrity status to avoid criticism. Einstein wrote "Brilliant spirits will always be criticized by mediocre minds." Ive known Beth and Tommy to be brave and generous. They are also human and have their faults and shortcomings like everyone else. They are not "disposable heros." So I honor them and reflect with pride and gratitude that I have known them and call them friends.
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crøtch
climber
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Dec 24, 2017 - 04:25am PT
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Great article by Beth R.
There’s a state department warning for any place that’s interesting to visit. And it’s easy to imagine incomplete information on local conflicts back in the dawn of the internet, before twitter and 9/11. Then add being an immortal young adult to the mix and most of us would have jumped at the chance to climb there.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 24, 2017 - 09:51am PT
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Great article. Well written. Maybe a bit TMI about their personal relationship with TC, but that's up to the author and hope he internally doesn't mind so much personal info shared.
Interesting to see people criticizing for throwing a killer and their kidnapper off the cliff. Hope no one here had to be in their shoes. I got shot at when I was younger after beating the sh#t out of someone, whose ego couldn't take the loss I guess...having a gun pointed in your direction is no fun.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 26, 2017 - 09:29am PT
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Maybe a bit TMI about their personal relationship with TC Way TMI. A woman exposing their partner’s sexual shortcomings is the oldest breakup coping mechanism.
I liked the control back story. Setting up some big send as a life passage gets old, heard it a million times. Beth seems to get beyond that a bit but then stops. It made me wonder what the shrink she mentioned had to say - she doesn’t expose that, or at least doesn’t put it together with anything.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 26, 2017 - 11:42pm PT
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Way TMI. A woman exposing their partner’s sexual shortcomings is the oldest breakup coping mechanism Knott sure how you interpreted “The lovers part rarely happened and never clicked” as anyone’s “sexual shortcomings”. For all we know it had as much (if knott more) to do with her.
Bottom line, for whatever reason (and most certainly none of our business) they didn’t really click in a passionate way, although they obviously loved each other. Nothing to see here, move along.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 27, 2017 - 08:55am PT
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I haven't visited the forum in awhile. Interesting to see conversation about an article written by a woman.
It is never easy to live in the public eye. I am a small woman, and I love to venture in the wilderness. Those that love the women who have the skills and courage to spread their wings also face constant criticism and will feel a need to protect them. When I was overdue and my husband had reason to believe that I was in danger, he was stressed beyond any limits he ever expected to encounter. Though he is a devout Christian, I have no doubt that he would push someone off a cliff if my or our children's lives were threatened. When you and someone you love may be in grave danger, the fight or flight instinct is activated. It is incredibly powerful.
I would criticize the decision to go to that place as incredibly naïve, but the steps taken to escape - I would not fault them. They did not go out to intentionally kill someone. Because of their stature in the climbing community, they will find their actions carved up. It must be incredibly difficult to fully heal when those wounds are constantly picked at.
Many people will make unfortunate decisions that have unintended consequences. Some have to bear unintended consequences beyond their wildest dreams. I have compassion for that - so long as people learn. I have made mistakes and know how difficult it can be to live with the unexpected consequences.
Wishing all peace this holiday season.
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Toe Jamb
Trad climber
CA
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Beth’s article is well written and I believe her that it is the most open she has been especially about her marital affair. However she left out many details where in 2008 she went from bad girl, to worse, to slutty, to downright mean and cold hearted in regards to Tommy. As we know, Beth started bouldering with the Berkeley Crew in the fall of 2007 at the encouragement of Tommy since Beth was rather depressed about their house taking too long to build and they were running out money. The Berkeley Crew included Randy Puro, Courtney Hemphill, Paul and Lynn Barraza, plus others (read Beth Rodden Weekend Warriors). Beth quickly became good friends with the entire crew especially Randy and Courtney. After only a few months Beth fell in love with and was hitting on Randy with a passion (read Beth Rodden Story and Beth Rodden Local Hero). What Beth failed to mention was that in 2008 Randy was engaged to be married to his longtime girlfriend Courtney. So, little miss innocent was not only secretly dating and having the “lovers stuff” (as she puts it) with Randy while she was married to Tommy she was also dating and having a sexual affair with one of your closest girlfriend’s fiancé. Beth even wrote about it (read Beth Rodden Life, Death, and What We Worry About) where she is with Randy while he is crying about the guilt and separation from his ex-fiancé. If Beth is with Randy as she wrote, then this would likely have been one of her many 2008 secret rendezvous at Randy’s place in Berkeley. So why is Randy feeling guilty? I am guessing that Courtney found out that Randy was having a sexual affair with another women and not just any women but with one of her close girlfriends who is married to one of her other close friends Tommy Caldwell. This story only gets worse but that can wait for another day.
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couchmaster
climber
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^^^She sounds like she's lived a full life Toe Jamb^^^. But you say it was a good article?
Toe jamb said, quote: "Beth’s article is well written and I believe her that it is the most open she has been especially about her marital affair. However she left out many details where in 2008 she went from bad girl, to worse, to slutty, to downright mean and cold hearted in regards to Tommy. As we know, Beth started bouldering with the Berkeley Crew in the fall of 2007 at the encouragement of Tommy since Beth was rather depressed about their house taking too long to build and they were running out money. The Berkeley Crew included Randy Puro, Courtney Hemphill, Paul and Lynn Barraza, plus others (read Beth Rodden Weekend Warriors). Beth quickly became good friends with the entire crew especially Randy and Courtney. After only a few months Beth fell in love with and was hitting on Randy with a passion (read Beth Rodden Story and Beth Rodden Local Hero). What Beth failed to mention was that in 2008 Randy was engaged to be married to his longtime girlfriend Courtney. So, little miss innocent was not only secretly dating and having the “lovers stuff” (as she puts it) with Randy while she was married to Tommy she was also dating and having a sexual affair with one of your closest girlfriend’s fiancé. Beth even wrote about it (read Beth Rodden Life, Death, and What We Worry About) where she is with Randy while he is crying about the guilt and separation from his ex-fiancé. If Beth is with Randy as she wrote, then this would likely have been one of her many 2008 secret rendezvous at Randy’s place in Berkeley. So why is Randy feeling guilty? I am guessing that Courtney found out that Randy was having a sexual affair with another women and not just any women but with one of her close girlfriends who is married to one of her other close friends Tommy Caldwell. This story only gets worse but that can wait for another day. "
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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This story only gets worse but that can wait for another day. That's pretty much how these things quite often happen in the adult world. You registered as a new user for that? What a boring post.
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Toe Jamb
Trad climber
CA
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Whenever Beth writes one of her mushy articles about her life you see a lot of replies, especially the filtered ones on her website, about how sweet, nice, and innocent she is and what a wonderful role model she is. I was just pointing out that after torturing and treating Tommy like dirt for over a year in 2007 and 2008 plus the things she conveniently leaves out of her articles she may not be the shining example she tries to portray herself as. I am certainly no saint and I am fully aware that relationships sometimes fall apart but she took it to an extreme in lying, cheating, and being downright mean and cold hearted. I may be old fashion but I would not consider what she did as normal adult actions in the real world. Take for example Tommy and Beth’s six week bouldering/climbing vacation to Rocklands South Africa in June/July 2008. You are half way around the world with your wife hanging out and climbing with a bunch of great friends enjoying some of best climbing in the world (see Andy Mann – Pro Blog 1,2,3,4,5). Two weeks into your vacation your wife stops climbing and starts hanging out at an internet café in a nearby town Clanwilliam (talking/texting with Randy back in the states). You come back after a full day of climbing with your friends and when you get to your room you see your wife on the bed sobbing. You walk over, put your arm around her, and softly ask what is wrong. Your wife then looks at you and says she misses her boyfriend. Ouch, and only after being away for two weeks. What makes this even more salacious is that Courtney Hemphill, Randy’s fiancé, is on this same trip with Tommy and Beth. So Beth is telling Tommy she misses Randy while his fiancé is just down the hallway. Take a look at Andy Mann – Pro Blog 4 and scroll down a ways and you will see a very haunting and creepy (some might say disgusting) photo of Beth giggling and making Apple Crisp deserts with Courtney knowing the whole time she is having a secret affair with her fiancé. Certainly not my kind of role model.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Damn.... Ouch....
But that's like 10 years ago right Tommy? You've moved on an have a kid (2?) with someone else?
You still kick ass... Let it go man....
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2019 - 10:39am PT
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So that's a bunch of creepy info I didn't know about. Ugh.
BAd
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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There should be a statute of limitations on allowing people their past transgressions. However, in this case, Beth chose to share her story with the public... and she conveniently omitted her own transgressions.
A little contrition goes a long way.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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If cheating is what you need or have chosen to do to get out of an unhappy marriage - I've never seen it go any other way.
A completely classless post about ancient history that was obviously none of his business in the first place.
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Toe Jamb
Trad climber
CA
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A couple of thoughts. Yes, this was 10 years ago but Beth just brought it up, without the salacious details, in her 2017 article. She also recently wrote about the 2008 South African trip (see Beth Rodden Facebook sugar packet). In regards to Beth Rodden’s Local Hero article note that it was published September 1, 2008 which means she wrote it in early August 2008 just after returning from the South African trip and two month prior to telling Tommy about her affair. So Beth is romantically hiking (and likely sleeping) with Randy in Yosemite immediately after her return while Tommy has been sluffed off to Colorado so she can have time to think about her life (note that there is an editorial timeline blunder in Tommy’s book The Push in that the two month separation could only have occurred AFTER the South African trip and not before). This is also the time that she told Tommy that she was not going to be calling or talking to Randy. Yes this was a long time ago but I do not believe that Beth has every come clean of what she really did and I do not believe she has ever said she was ever sorry or ashamed for all the people she hurt. She seems to think this is acceptable behavior as long as it justifies her feminine independence.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Maybe it wasn't mentioned because it's nobody's fuking business.
Has Tommy approved of your posts? I highly doubt it. I would be pretty disgusted and upset myself to have this aired if it involved me in any way.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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. Yes this was a long time ago but I do not believe that Beth has every come clean of what she really did and I do not believe she has ever said she was ever sorry or ashamed for all the people she hurt. She seems to think this is acceptable behavior as long as it justifies her feminine independence.
We all die dirty in some aspects. Their relationship never seemed to be a real healthy one from the outside view at least. That doesn't justify what she did but even good people are complicated and sometimes even cruel.
I doubt many even remember who Beth was as she seems to have moved on with motherhood and whatnot. I doubt she's visible enough to be the role model you might think. May you find peace with your own life.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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I hope that you can move past all this.
That you can be happy after more time
take away something good from a sad episode
see the best in what is sad
passion is what happens.
A mix of powerful emotions
accept what happened.
Look away to see happiness
so to be ready when Providence shines on you
find some solace and can place the pain
in a place that allows you too, to move on.
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Toe Jamb
Trad climber
CA
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To be fair, Beth, Tommy, Randy, and Becca have all seem to have gotten over and moved on over what Beth and Randy did in 2008. I can not imagine going on vacations with my ex-wife and her husband knowing they had a sexual affair behind my back for six months. Tommy is certainly a much bigger and more forgiving person than me. However, Beth in her November 2018 article Rebuilding Your Climbing Life After Losing a Partner seems to imply there are still some hard feelings and that it was only recently that Beth and Tommy actual did a roped climb together. FEAR may be correct that Beth’s role model as a climber has probably played out and forgotten by the younger climbers and she is now relegated to writing about her nipples and how to make almond milk. I do have to commend Beth for all her articles on climbing while pregnant which has not likely ever been covered.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Toe Jamb = Cortenay?
Pretty sure Toe Jamb has never climbed 14c trad.
Move on with your life. No primates are 100% monogamous.
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brotherbbock
climber
So-Cal
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How do you know all this info Toe Jam?
EDIT:
I'm glad no one is spraying online about the stupid sh!t I did 10-15 years ago.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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especially the filtered ones on her website, about how sweet, nice, and innocent she is and what a wonderful role model she is.
--
What amazes me is that adults living in the real world could still believe "Instagram Perfect" is anything but an idealized load of sh#t and that this is somehow a mark we are supposed to live up to and oh what a shame and a bummer when we can't because we should cause we're better than that cha cha cha.
We're all partially made and finished with claw hammers. That's just the way it is. Who really wants it otherwise?
That wasn't really airing "dirty" laundry. It was just laundry. You'll find much the same in most everyone's hamper. Congratulations.
Ain't it grand?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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We're all partially made and finished with claw hammers. -JL
Added to my list of favorite quotes.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2019 - 06:29am PT
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I'm kinda with Somebodyanybody on this one. It's gotta be rough living in the public eye.
BAd
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Yawn. What a lame soap opera. No one cares.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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We all reincarnate in this school of life again and again, as we each have hidden and open character defects, along with attachments and vain desires, which keep us tied to the cycle of deaths and rebirths. Only difference is, when you become even a little bit of a celebrity in any field, even for a brief time, your stuff becomes more public, albeit temporarily.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I never take sides in relationship issues...no one is privy to what goes on behind closed doors.
I don’t agree, however, that everyone who is cheated on deserves it...a lot do but certainly not all.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I'm not sure why you think it is incumbent upon her to "come clean" in some kind of public sense, or have some ritual parade of self-shaming.
--
The old hair suite syndrome. Or the Scarlet Letter. In my experience, the person posing on the high road has a closet full of skeletons, gay porn, S & M gadgets and drinks himself silly while watching FOX news and Cheers reruns. They're ain't no saints, amigos.
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hacky47
Trad climber
goldhill
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geez..that hit close to home...ok i dont watch fox news
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I can not imagine going on vacations with my ex-wife and her husband knowing they had a sexual affair behind my back for six months. That's the great thing about having your wife cheat on you - instead of looking in the mirror and realizing you're the pitiful d#@&%ebag you present yourself here as - you have the option of blaming it all on her for the rest of your life - and Beth - and everyone else too! Have fun with that!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I can not imagine
---
Not even true. We can all imagine anything. Whatever you can't you're afraid of. That's the problem.
Whatever lives in the shadows will get you. It always got me, anyhow.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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You always deserve it when you get cheated on. No exceptions.
Nice logic, Tommy deserved it…..
Not sure, anyone deserve their depressed x-wife/husband writing an article about how f’d up their marriage was.
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Degaine
climber
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donini wrote:
I never take sides in relationship issues...no one is privy to what goes on behind closed doors
Exactly. Unless you are one of the two protagonists in the couple, you just have no idea of what exactly is going on.
Personally, I don't judge.
@both Jims (Brenan and donini)- honest question, why do you think the person being cheated on sometimes/always deserves it?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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You always deserve it when you get cheated on. No exceptions.
Wow. This is right up there with blaming rape victims.
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couchmaster
climber
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I'm with Largo. Climbers, but more specifically Dirtbag climbers (apologies to poster dirtbag) tend to be non-monogamists. Pretty much leave it up to folks to figure out their own personal loves and lives. If they want me to be getting my nose in their business they have but to ask me and I'll help if I can. Otherwise generally since it's not my business and they're not asking my my opinion, thoughts or requesting that I butt in on their fidelities or lack thereof, I'm out of their business.
I think we humans put people who don't deserve to be up there onto pedestals all the time for the wrong reasons. Look at any "movie star" as example. They're often simply messed up half wits who have but a single skill: the fantastic ability to imitate another person and have us believe in it. Yet people kiss their feet and talk highly of them all day long.
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Toe Jamb
Trad climber
CA
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I am completely with donini and EdwardT on this one. Tommy certainly did not deserve six months of Beth lying, sneaky around, and having a sexual affair with Randy behind his back. If Beth was that depressed about her marriage then early on she should have just told Tommy things were not working out, she had fallen in love with someone else, and wanted a divorce. It was not like Tommy was either verbally or physical abusive with Beth in fact quite the opposite. He had just spent a year building their dream house in Yosemite that Beth insisted on. Tommy unconditionally loved her and worshiped the ground she walked on. He loved her so much that he was willing to leave her for two months, at her request, so she could think about her life only for her to jump in bed with Randy as soon as he left. The only excuse Beth gave in her article was that she wanted more romance and more “lovers stuff”. Perhaps, instead of sneaking into Berkeley to hook up with Randy she could have sneaked into Berkeley, gone to Victoria Secrets, buy a cute teddy and may be some naughty underwear, booked a hotel, and then call Tommy to meet her at the hotel for a big surprise. Love and romance takes two persons to be involved and it does not appear from what Beth wrote in her 2017 article that she tried very hard. Remember that at the time she was only 28 years old so it was not like some kind of mid-life crisis.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Perhaps, instead of sneaking into Berkeley to hook up with Randy she could have sneaked into Berkeley, gone to Victoria Secrets, buy a cute teddy and may be some naughty underwear, booked a hotel, and then call Tommy to meet her at the hotel for a big surprise. You have what appears to be near zero emotional awareness - like roughly that of a 9-14 year old. Good luck with adulting, bud.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I keep seeing shirtless "Randy" from the Trailer Park Boys..... Oh... the humanity!
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Degaine
climber
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Jim Brennan wrote:
Because no one is perfect. Read Largo’s post, LOL !
Thanks for the reply, I perfectly understand that no one's perfect and and understood Largo. Just don't get using the term "deserve." A bit too strong and "judgy" for me.
I'm more in line with what caughtinside wrote:
You seem to put it all on Beth. Takes two to tango.
The idea of shared responsibility in a relationship. Everyone participates in making the situation what it is.
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Toe Jamb
Trad climber
CA
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caughtinside may be right. Perhaps Tommy could have taken Beth out to more romantic dinners and done more lovey-dovey stuff but at least he tried. After spending 40 days helping Beth climb 70 foot Meltdown (hauling gear everyday, setting anchors and ropes, shoveling snow, chalk marking her steps) when they finished he gave her his most romantic and big hug then whispered softy in her ear how proud he was of her and when he went to kiss her she just turned away with not so much of a thank you. Sad since it was on Valentine's Day. To make it sadder, seven months latter when Beth is in the middle of her marital affair she gives all the credit (see Beth Rodden Local Hero) for Meltdown to bouldering with Randy.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Toe Jamb, who are you? What is your relationship to Tommy & Beth?
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dhayan
climber
culver city, ca
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Hey Toe Jamb, are you perfect? I’d be curious to know why you are so triggered by this and have such an axe to grind. Like someone else already asked - what is your relation to this story?
From the little I know of Beth I have a ton of respect for her even if she did do all of the things you allege. Role models to me are not people who can do no wrong, they are people who have the courage to face life as it is and and as it comes, and use these opportunities to grow and learn about themselves. What is your shadow’s name?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Degaine....I said that I didn’t agree with Jim Brennan on that issue. Certainly, some people deserve being cheated on but I believe that a good number of them don’t. Human behavior is extraordinarily complex and when sex is involved everything becomes more explosive and less predictable.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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It's an interesting thing to see people obsessed with A) finding a "reason" why something untoward happened, and B) placing blame on the "guilty" party.
Granted, I put a huge effort into trying to do the right thing - not a simple task for someone who is basically selfish - but I've gone astray and still do so often that the idea of castigating others for less than idealized behavior is not something I can do without feeling like a fraud.
We're all winging it, man. We try and limit the carnage but life is chaos and it will never be anything but an adventure.
Generally, people do as well as they can. Seemingly ugly behavior is often a efort to escape a desperate situation. It's unlikely this will go smoothly.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Largo talks about himself and Jim Brennan applauds...
:o)
There's a Norwegian proverb: På seg selv kjenner man ingen andre...
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Degaine
climber
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donini wrote:
Degaine....I said that I didn’t agree with Jim Brennan on that issue. Certainly, some people deserve being cheated on but I believe that a good number of them don’t. Human behavior is extraordinarily complex and when sex is involved everything becomes more explosive and less predictable.
Thanks for the reply and clarification. Apologies if my post wasn't clear - I understood you to be "sometimes" and Jim Brennan to be "always".
There was no intention to impugn or judgement on my part, just wanted to understand where you both are coming from.
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Degaine
climber
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Jim Brennan wrote:
Degaine, I came up with "deserve" not from a point of judgement. Inexperience in human nature is something everyone confronts at the early stages of adult life.
There's no rehearsal and if you choose through youthful idealism to not see what is writ large about how other people treat you, you're up for a lesson in life. You deserve it because it's good for you in developing mental fortitude.
Naturally, it hurts.
Thanks as well for the reply and clarification. Pretty sure we're in agreement.
"Deserve" at face value feels pretty harsh and accusatory to me, but it sounds like we agree that two people are responsible for what happens in a relationship. When one person in a relationship cheats, the other definitely needs to look and see what role they played in that happening.
Also, have watched the video you posted, but the title is spot on: staying in a relationship longer than one should because one is "invested" (like continuing to pay for repairs in a car that you should probably junk).
Cheers.
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Degaine
climber
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Largo wrote:
It's an interesting thing to see people obsessed with A) finding a "reason" why something untoward happened, and B) placing blame on the "guilty" party.
Indeed, and with regard to B, I've come to realize that placing blame has no purpose and is usually counterproductive.
But as you write, I'm only human, and subject to all the conditioning and ingrained expectations that comes with it (the process is a long one to untie yourself from all that), which means that sometimes the knee-jerk reaction to blame gets the upper hand.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Toe Jamb, who are you? What is your relationship to Tommy & Beth?
Thought we decided upthread she was Ranydy's ex-fiancée.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Thought we decided upthread she was Ranydy's ex-fiancée.
LOL. Certainly sounds like someone with some skin in the game, no pun intended.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Missed that, but it would show a lot more integrity on the part of Toe Jamb if they would own their very explicit, personal comments about Tommy and Beth.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I think I'm going to have to agree with you guys - no man would act like this - it could only be from a chick who lost at love to another woman. Beth's articles are probably filling in some missing pieces for her, hence the bizarre interest.
Here's a clip of Randy and Beth in Berkeley for ya Courtney!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Mar 10, 2019 - 12:55am PT
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Tommy and beth have moved on in every way with happy families and everything. why don't you move on toe jamb and go troll elsewhere. u have no say here hiding behind an anonymous avatar. ss
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Trump
climber
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Mar 10, 2019 - 09:13am PT
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Generally people do as well as they can.
Totally agree.
I’d say like around 86% of the time they do the best they can. But like 92% of their behaviors are controlled by deterministic processes, and only like 8% are left up to free will, so generally, yea, kind of the best they can do.
Like look, that person right there, their behaviors are the best they can do in order to just escape a desperate situation! What, are they just gonna die or continue to risk being killed in order to help their captors escape the desperate situation their captors are in? Or are they gonna murder their captors in order to escape the desperate situation that they are in? Probably they’re gonna do the best they can in the situation.
And by best I mean some unmeasurable arbitrary best that I made up in my mind and am always trying to figure out exactly what it is. Best like what best really means in reality, like what best has meant for the last 4 billion years, but translated and interpreted to the best of my awesome abilities, and then imposed by me on other people’s behavior.
Beth wrote some words about something important that affected her life.
Now we’re writing some words about Beth writing some words about something important that affected her life.
Me? I’m writing some words about you all writing your words about Beth writing her words about something that happened in her life, because my words are just so true I felt like I needed to share them with y’all. Maybe you’ll hit me up with a few bucks to my gofundme if I can do my best at being likeable enough.
Or maybe there’s a crazily more complicated string of determinants at work, and we’re just doing the best we can to express the interaction of those determinants when we write our words about the words that someone else wrote about the words that someone else wrote about things that actually happened in their lives.
Maybe it’s more like 9% free will, and the best we can do with that is to say we do the best we can do. Or maybe the best we can do is to say that we can do better.
Who knows? Generally, I think saying that we know even when we don’t know is the best we can do.
Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.
Best to y’all!
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wheatBeer
Social climber
TheBronx
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Mar 10, 2019 - 02:14pm PT
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This is why ST sux.
What a car crash and a bunch of rubberneckers. Everyone from anonymous trolls to climbing superheroes cant keep from adding to the BS.
Sad state of affairs.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Mar 10, 2019 - 06:46pm PT
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Eh, hell of a lot more interesting than a bunch of boomers navel gazing about the meaning of “mind”, retreading their favorite ‘70s rock or the tinfoil hat brigade.
Honestly, a lot closer to the online version of Degnan’s that this site started as, instead of the “campfire” that the late arriving dustfarters try to claim.
#makesupertoposlanderousagain
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
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closer to the online version of Degnan’s that this site started as,
instead of the “campfire” that the late arriving dustfarters try to claim.
LOL sure was some crazy sh!t being said and done at the deli back in those daze.
"Campfire" ... blech, I'd puke if I had to engage in that horsesh!t ....
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2019 - 08:26pm PT
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Just reread the piece. Without going into gruesome detail--which is understandable and appropriate--she covers the bases and admits to her role in the break up. My initial response stands. A worthwhile read.
BAd
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Toe Jamb
Trad climber
CA
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Mar 11, 2019 - 10:33am PT
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After reading Beth’s article I went back and re-read Tommy’s book “The Push” plus several of Beth’s own articles. Let’s just say I may have a different opinion of her than others and I fully accept others opinions including JLP. As far as having any special knowledge, note that in most cases I gave the document reference. For example the incident where Beth would not even let Tommy kiss her after completing her Meltdown assent on Valentine’s Day was written by Tommy Caldwell himself in his book Chapter 17 page 169. As far as what happened on their South Africa vacation (where Beth tells her husband she misses her boyfriend and considered Tommy a total stranger when he tried to sit next to her during breakfast) was again written by Tommy in his book Chapter 19 page 175 and by Beth in her sugar packet Facebook post. Considering that both Tommy and Beth continue to write about this I think it is far game to comment on what they have written. As I have said previously, I fully understand that relationships do not always work out but in this case for Beth to be so rude and insensitive to Tommy for well over a year to me was rather ungrateful and regrettable considering that Tommy saved her life, spent years helping her recover from Kyrgyzstan, was responsible for helping her achieve all her famous climbs, married her at her insistence, and spent a year building their house in Yosemite again at her insistence. The real coup de grace of Beth’s insensitive and disregard for Tommy’s feelings came when after FINALLY telling Tommy in October 2008 of her affair with Randy she begs Tommy to stay married to her but she insists that she wants to continue dating Randy (see The Push Chapter 19 page 177). So Beth’s plan is to live with Tommy (separate bedrooms of course) during the week and then drive into Berkeley on the weekends to drive around in Randy’s fancy black Audi, go out to nice dinners, spend the night having sex with him, then drive back to Yosemite the next day. Sounds to me like she only cared about using Tommy to continue and support her climbing career and to be able to suck money out of her sponsors. I am glad that Tommy did not go for it which enabled him to meet and marry Becca who I think became a much better wife than Beth ever could have been. And the best part of the book (Chapter 36 page 328) is when Tommy says “I even feel lucky that Beth left me,….”.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Mar 11, 2019 - 10:39am PT
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Geeze, and I thought I was bored.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Mar 11, 2019 - 10:40am PT
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Toe Jamb, your persistent postings containing very intimate descriptions of another person's relationships, made without being forthcoming about your identity, are very annoying, if not downright slimy.
IMO, if you think you are somehow 'outing' Beth by making these kinds of posts, the only person you are 'outing' is your own lack of integrity.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 11, 2019 - 10:43am PT
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Toe Jamb is most definitely Courtney.
I have to admit - after a minute or two of Google-Stalking - Beth kinda sorta looks like Courtney too - except Beth is blonde and maybe a little cuter!
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Mar 11, 2019 - 11:20am PT
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See, it’s the digital deli. Almost as good as listening to Way critique the style of parties on the Cap!
Admittedly the OE was better than the tea I’m drinking as I read this, but we all get older. Carry on.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 11, 2019 - 11:34am PT
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Geeze, and I thought I was bored.
This is why I never want any books/movies written about me! Brings out the stalkers... I can only hope TJ is someone actually involved with the situation and just PO'd. The alternative is super-creepy if it's a stranger....
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Mar 11, 2019 - 01:27pm PT
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Toe Jamb, you have all rights to post your side of the story of double betrayal on the thread where ST pack praising Beth for her side of the story. Even mean clown JLP managed to guess who you are. Actually, you already wrote a few good paragraphs where one can see that your pain is still with you and sin of betrayal is hardest to forgive
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 11, 2019 - 05:55pm PT
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Toe Jamb, I'm sorry for the pain you are feeling. It's real, and it's not slimy and it's not funny. I don't know you, have never met you, but I can sense the pain you must be carrying. I wish anything or something I had or could do would fix it. I'll give you a virtual hug and wish you the very best in your life. Please don't be distraught. It gets better. Really. The sun will come out again. The flowers will bloom. Life will have sweetness again. Please know that we all feel the weight of the human condition at times, sometimes it's almost too much, and it's OK. It's OK to cry. It's OK to laugh. And it's OK to love again. Thank you for laying some facts out there for us who know so little about so much. You do have a voice, and that voice was heard loud and clear, even if some people get confused and have no understanding. Thank you for sharing the rest of the story.
They say the best revenge is to have a great life. I wish I had better words. But it fails me at times and I apologize for that. Be well, live long, and prosper and may you have a long fantastic life.
xo
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Mar 11, 2019 - 07:31pm PT
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tj, unless you out yourself, u have no say here, your are nothin. ss
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Mar 11, 2019 - 08:51pm PT
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^^^
+1
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Mar 12, 2019 - 12:28am PT
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It's been a number of years now. I think Toe Jamb just needs to get over the fact that she just wasn't enough. Well, that and the fact that no one is buying the "Tommy was tortured by Beth" b.s.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 12, 2019 - 08:49am PT
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Tommy says “I even feel lucky that Beth left me, My 2c - CH is at least as lucky Randy left - and Tommy and Beth are none of your concern.
Randy was your relationship, and he sounds like a d-bag - frankly.
If it's been 10+ years, you might want to start looking in the mirror.
Two cheaters entering into a relationship together on that basis are going to someday have to deal with some baggage, it doesn't go away. It will be considerably more difficult to deal with it from within the relationship - few survive - but maybe it will. I look forward to reading about it either way, should she choose to someday share it instead of boring the jebus out of me with stories of her last rad send. The article in the OP does just that, stopping short of something far more interesting to me personally.
The premise that we're all here fawning over sweet innocent Beth and her Instagram life is simple and naive. I think everyone gets the divorce and the reasons for it from some personal perspective and likely has some interest in hearing how she dealt with it in relation to their own way of seeing and dealing with things.
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| Messages 1 - 122 of total 122 in this topic |
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