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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 13, 2017 - 02:41am PT
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Asthma inhaler abuse in sports is nothing new. A bronchodilator, by definition, opens up the lungs so that more oxygen can be exchanged. The story with Froome is that he cross some arbitrary line, and used too much of the drug. Nominal use is OK, but excessive is not, apparently.
A few years ago, I was exposed to some moldy hay in a barn, and wound up with "Farmer's Lung" which was like asthma, but was not responsive to albuterol/salbutamol. In an effort to stop the bronchoconstriction, I would use the inhaler excessively, regardless of the fact that it didn't work. Later, I found out that I needed to see a doctor, and get a steroid shot and a cycle of prednisone.
Froome may have had a similar experience, wherein he excessively used the inhaler in an innocent attempt to gain relief from something that did not respond to salbutamol. It is almost an involuntary act to keep using the inhaler, even if you know it isn't working.
If I was Froome's lawyer, that's what I would say.
Albuterol/Salbutamol are prescription drugs, and in my experience don't have the same "kick" as OTC epinephrine.
Before there was a ban on the CFC propellant used for inhalers, epinephrine was available over-the-counter as Primatene and Bronchaid. Today, you can still get ephinephrine OTC as non-aerosol liquid for atomizers, and also in pill form.
Here is a little ditty I came up with for Tonya Harding. She famously was using her asthma inhaler A LOT during the notorious 1994 Winter Olympics when her goon squad clubbed Nancy Kerrigan on the knee.
Tonya's Silver Hammer
Tonya skates again,
Jacked-up on epinephrine.
Judges get annoyed.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 13, 2017 - 07:57am PT
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I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this. But then it does seem his doctor was a bit cavalier in his management although estimating dosage via inhaler seems an imperfect science.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 13, 2017 - 11:28am PT
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We should be banned from the Olympics now also.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2018 - 02:22am PT
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Here's a credible rumour about Froome's proposed defense. He's going to say that his kidneys malfunctioned and instead or excreting Salbutamol they actually stored it and then released it all at one time!
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/chris-froome-kidney-dope-test/
It appears that cyclists, and athletes in general, still continue to come up with new and amazing ways to explain their use of PEDs.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 17, 2018 - 06:31am PT
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Yeah or he could have inhaled moldy hay spores riding in Belgium...?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 17, 2018 - 06:57am PT
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"These aren't my pants"
-C. Froome
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jan 17, 2018 - 07:12am PT
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I was reading about the Tour in the post-Armstrong era, and on one of the big classic climbs--maybe Ventoux--the winner's time would have placed him 40th in the peleton during an Armstrong race! Since then, speeds have been creeping back up. It's a totally corrupt sport, and it seems it always will be. Maybe it's time to just give up, make it a pharmacological free for all, and let the riders explode on the road.
BAd
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2018 - 09:32am PT
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With respect to climbing times on Mont Ventoux..... let's throw out 2016 when the roads were clogged with fans, but the time before that, Chris Froome's time compared very closely to Lance Armstrong's best time and both were raced under similar conditions.
Also, Chris Froome has been besting all of Lance's climbing times on the training climbs around Nice/Monte Carlo. If Lance was doped then.......
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John Mac
Trad climber
Breckenridge, CO
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Jan 17, 2018 - 09:48am PT
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Bruce, Thanks for keeping us up to date and sharing your thoughts.
I thought the comments by Katy Compton's were an interesting viewpoint as well and they closely match my experience with a friend who has had asthma since childhood. We ride on a regular basis here in Colorado and he has some bad days and the inhaler helps but it doesn't help that much!
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 17, 2018 - 09:53am PT
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I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this.
And all this time I've thought of you as good old fashioned cynic!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 10:04am PT
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Sorry to disillusion you, Gary. I also believe in the little people and unicorns.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2018 - 11:39am PT
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Katie Compton provides a very informative picture of how someone who actually has asthma deals with the condition.
Pro cyclists have been abusing Salbutamol for years. Once a rider gets a prescription for an inhaler he starts taking oral doses and using the inhaler to make it look like he isn't doing anything illegal.
People keep saying that at the level of an asthma medication there is no performance enhancing aspect, but at the level Froome tested at there is definitely a performance enhancing effect.
The way dope testing works is that the lab has the ability to test for hundreds of different illegal substances, but only run 3-5 tests on each sample. I had a long discussion at the 2009 Giro with then UCI president Pat McQuaid and he assured me that since an athlete doesn't know which tests are going to be run they don't take the chance of doing anything.
I disagree and think that some athletes roll the dice and hope that what they are taking won't be tested for on that particular day. I think this is what happened to Froome. He rolled the dice and lost.
Having said that, the editora at VeloNews told me that there are certain tests that do get run on every sample and Salbutamol is one of them. I contacted the US Anti-Doping Agency and asked for confirmation of that and they are working on getting me a reply. Hopefully, they can either confirm or deny that.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
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I think I am, once again, disillusioned.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
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I think what is really interesting here is that there appears to be some real arrogance from Team Sky regarding this matter. They just survived an investigation by UK Antidoping and also Parliment into Sir(!) Bradley Wiggins doping allegations.
They survived by basically stonewalling any request for information and also refused to allow their team doctors to provide direct testimony. Because doping isn't illegal in most countries there really isn't much you can do to make someone testify and/or give information if they don't want to. You can read more about that affair here(follow the links in the article).
http://sportsscientists.com/2018/01/team-sky-marginal-games/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FcJKs+%28The+Science+of+Sport%29
So, because they thumbed their noses at the authorities with the Wiggins affair they think they can do the same with the Froome case. It is time for these guys to get taken down a notch or two or three or four.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 17, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
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Reilly a rube! Say it ain't so.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 17, 2018 - 02:40pm PT
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I think what is really interesting here is that there appears to be some real arrogance from Team Sky
not surprised at all, and it probably will only get worse. Isn't Sky going to be bought by Rupert Murdoch?
Also, Chris Froome has been besting all of Lance's climbing times on the training climbs around Nice/Monte Carlo.
why would Froome be doping on a training ride?
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
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Froome would be doping on a training ride because it is part of a training program. You get stronger if you can make your body and muscles work harder. EPO makes you work harder and Salbutamol, at the levels that were in Froome's urine, aid in muscle growth and recovery(so you can train just as hard or harder the next day).
There is a good reason why anti-doping authorities do both in-competition and out-of-competition drug testing. BTW, the drug panels they test for are different. There is undoubtedly some overlap, but they are not the same.
Murdoch already owned Sky, but the whole thing was recently bought by Disney.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 06:40pm PT
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My husband thinks this was completely an accidental systemic dosing of someone who was trying to control their asthma in a critical performance situation using an inhaler. When using an inhaler, even if used correctly, a large proportion of the drug can get ingested and end up getting registered as systemic. He says no one would deliberately misuse salbuterol, it's not really performance enhancing. What you are trying to do is control your condition and win a race, trying to control your symptoms.
My husband is an expert on inhaled drugs, a former VP in a pharmaceutical company where he led a development organization on inhaled drugs.
But he's also a cyclist and a fan of Froome's, and maybe he hasn't looked at it as closely as you have Bruce. He doesn't follow the cycling mags too much.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 17, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
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Phylp... I believe your husband... Makes sense but good luck convincing WADA ...WADA sounds over the top with their interpretations of PED rules...? Who was the Norwegian x-country skier lady that was suspended for using a lip cream that contained a banned substance...?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 07:07pm PT
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why would Froome be doping on a training ride?
Messages 1 - 20 of total 24 in this topic << First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>
So nobody would question his performance elsewhere?
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
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Sometime later... I read him Bruce's posts and he said very interesting he could be right.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 17, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
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Was working on an olympic medalists house when the dope cops showed up to do a suprise test ....it was humiliating kinda like having the jehovah witnesses at your front door only they got to come in unannounced and take your blood...
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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Jan 17, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
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Doping while training increases the training effect.
No dope in your system while racing😊
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 10:00pm PT
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I have a good friend who is an internationally famous bio-chemist and cyclist and he also
thinks WADA is an inept bureaucracy. During Lance’s inquisition he said those labs were
a joke. He didn’t say Lance was innocent but from what he saw it was more a case that
he was found guilty in spite of the lab work.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2018 - 10:29pm PT
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Phylp,
the problem with your husband's logic is that Chris Froome had that option to use as his defense and he chose not to use it so that probably rules out that as the cause of the problem since it is a much more reasonable defense than saying his kidneys accidentally stored the drug and then released it all at once.
A couple of years ago an Italian cyclist, Diego Ulissi, tested at the same level of Salbutamol as Froome. He went into a lab and tried to achieve the same level by just taking the recommended dose of Salbutamol from an inhaler and failed. His defense team then just had to admit that he took too much at one time and he received a 9-month ban.
There is a good article about it here:
http://www.velonews.com/2017/12/news/ulissi-lawyer-froome-risk-longer-ban_453938
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 17, 2018 - 11:40pm PT
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Having said that, the editora at VeloNews told me that there are certain tests that do get run on every sample and Salbutamol is one of them. I contacted the US Anti-Doping Agency and asked for confirmation of that and they are working on getting me a reply. Hopefully, they can either confirm or deny that.
There is a strong motivation to give out misinformation on the part of the testing organizations. That is, if you think they are doing one thing, and you prepare for THAT, but they are really doing something else, then you get caught. Why else would the "need to work" on a reply, other than to give you a good, misleading answer, that helps no one.
Defeating testing and catching cheats is a constant competition. The less the cheats know about how the testers test, the harder it is to beat.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2018 - 12:36am PT
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ken_m,
at the 2002 Winter Olympics, the head of USADA, Frank Shorter, intentionally started a disinformation campaign that there was no way to test for the 2nd generation epo(darbepo) even though there was now a marker and the test was 100% effective.
The disinformation ended up catching a bunch of athletes.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 18, 2018 - 06:40am PT
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Johann Mulegg was one of the athletes caught in Salt Lake City...X-country skier from Germany that gained spanish citinzery probablly because spain didn't test at that time..Mullegg was out - running the snowmobile camera...Oops..The other athletes caught was a Russian lady x-country skier who lost her medal...Suprise , suprise...
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 18, 2018 - 07:18am PT
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Coincidentally, last night we watched Icarus on Netflix. Very interesting.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2018 - 10:57am PT
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Larisa Lazutina was the Russian female XC skier who lost her gold medal in the 30km. What was interesting here is that both Lazutina and Muehlegg won two other medals and were allowed to keep them. A couple of years later the Court for Arbitration in Sport ordered both skiers to return their other medals though they did not test positive when they won them.
And to make the whole sordid affair even weirder, because Lazutina was DQed the skier in second got upgraded. In one of her races it was a Russian skier who then received the gold only to also test positive for darbepotin so in the end the skier who finished third got the gold. I believe a spectator who was on the sidelines watching the race was awarded the bronze:-)
Nice to know that cycling isn't the only sport with a sad history of doping.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 18, 2018 - 12:50pm PT
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There was a short interview on Cyclingnews with the multi-time womans US cyclocross champ Katie Compton. Katie has a well-known problem with asthma, having had to drop out of races due to asthma issues. She indicated there were times when she took multiple hits both before and after races and still didn't register anything close to what Froome got.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2018 - 09:10am PT
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There is an interesting side story going on here.
The Giro d'Italia is Italy's version of the Tour de France. In recent years riders who have attempted to win both the Giro and the Tour have failed. They can win the Giro which is in May, but can't win the Tour about a month later. So, the Giro has lost some of it's stature as the top riders take a pass in order to have the best shot at winning the Tour.
One way the Giro has attracted top riders is to pay them money to be there. Start money is pretty common in a lot of top sports, it's just not talked about much with the public because it 'taints' the nature of sport for some.
Anyway, the organizer of the Giro has reportedly paid Chris Froome and his Team Sky $3,000,000 to ride the Giro, but there are now some legitimate concerns about the deal.
First off, Froome and his team signed the deal knowing full well that he had this problem with his Salbutamol levels. For some reason(!!!) they forgot to tell the organizer of the Giro when they took his $3 mil. Rightly so, the organizer of the Giro wants the Froome situation resolved before the Giro starts.
If the issue is resolved against Froome he won't be racing. If the situation is resolved in Froome's favor, the flimsy excuse he is going to use for his defense will most likely leave a lot of the public unsatisfied as to his innocence and the $3 mil spent on bringing him to the Giro will have been a big waste of money. Lastly, if the issue is unresolved and he still races, the public will be even more disgruntled.
This situation could have been avoided if Team Sky and Froome had been upfront with the organizers of the Giro. The team is supposedly built around transparency, but I guess that word means different things to different people.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 21, 2018 - 10:01am PT
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OT... I remember Bob Roll , with his toothy grin saying " this is how the Italians ride the Giro " as i towed him on his Mt. bike up the 4 mile climb to the start of a Mammoth NORBA race.. That was right before the police pulled us over administrating a stern lecture..
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2018 - 11:16am PT
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More OT, When a bike racer gets married it has been a tradition to have a 'freedom ride' or the last ride as a free man:-)
When Andy Hampsten was getting married we went out for the freedom ride(leaving a bit late) and all got pulled over by the police for supposedly riding three abreast. None of us had any ID's so the police wanted to haul us all into the station to sort it out. It was an hour by bike back to Boulder and the wedding started in two hours so we pleaded with the cops that we would give our real names so just start writing tickets. It didn't help that the SWAT team showed up for some reason.
So, we finally convinced the cops that we would give our real names and the first person the cops walked up to was Bob Roll. They asked him his name and in broken English he says, "my name is Francesco Moser, Italiano" We tried as hard as we could to no bust out laughing, but the officer wrote the ticket and thankfully the rest of us gave our real names. We just made it back in time for the wedding.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 21, 2018 - 11:28am PT
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Francesco Moser...!! LMAO...Bob's my idol ..
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2018 - 10:13am PT
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ASO is attempting to keep Chris Froome from riding the 2018 Tour de France. Froome returned an Adverse Analytical Finding(AAF) for Salbutamol on September 20, 2017 and ASO is frustrated with how long it is taking to resolve the case. Some feel that Team Sky and Froome are attempting to delay the finding until after he can ride the Tour, hence the attempt at a ban.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Hinault suggested the riders strike if Froome is allowed to participate...Don't agitate the badger...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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A question for Bruce (or anyone else who follows cycling/doping):
There have been more than a few comments in this thread about Chris Froome turning in performances on par with those of Lance Armstrong at his doped-up best. But, after he returned the adverse finding in the Vuelta, wouldn't he be in the sights of every doping official in the world? Wouldn't he be tested every time he turned around?
If that is true, he'd pretty much have to stop doping, and yet his performance hasn't dropped off. At least not if the Giro was any indication.
I don't have a clue about any of this myself, and have no idea whether he was doping or not. But I'm curious about how he is seemingly able to continue the extreme performance if they're testing him all the time.
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HoMan
Trad climber
Wasteville,CA
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I think there are several factors.
The doping is done in cycles...nothing new on this front.
The doping is a generation ahead of current testing.
The doping promotes recovery over performance.
These factors make it very difficult to nab abusers during races.
They come to races in peak form AND fully rested/recovered.
They've already tweeked their bodies to run at a 'higher' state for a given time. Long after testing would condemn.
Just my speculation.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2018 - 08:21pm PT
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Ghost,
his performance in the Giro wasn't that great. He looked completely vulnerable during most of the race and was dropped numerous times. Also, it was a pretty weak field of rivals. And the stage that he won and took the pink was more due to race strategy(Dumoulin waited for others to get over the Finestre to help with the chase and they didn't get there until there was too big a gap and then they couldn't/wouldn't work) rather than Froome being that much stronger.
But, yes, I would say that Froome gets more random tests both in-competition and out-of-competition than before. It's too bad that the tests for the two most abused and effective drugs, EPO and testosterone, are so easy to foil.
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HoMan
Trad climber
Wasteville,CA
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^^^^
Nice summary.
BTW..I'm not implying Froome is really cheating.
I'm a Froome fan. Hope he's playing it straight.
But I'm(for the sport) damaged goods..lol
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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I'm a Froome fan.
Not me. ABF(anybody but froome), but I am hoping Vincenzo ends up with the *Mellow Johnny* in Paris.
*Simplified for the texans amongst us.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2018 - 11:00pm PT
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One of the big problems with sports like professional cycling is that they are not very "strong" meaning that someone like Chris Froome can hire a bunch of high-priced lawyers and they can make a mockery of the system. Riders with less resources just have to suck it up and take it. That's not very fair.
It is not a coincidence that the strongest force in cycling, ASO which owns the Tour de France, was the one to stand up to Froome. They are not intimidated by Froome's lawyers. Hopefully, ASO's ban will hold up with the French Olympic Committee. We will know on Wednesday.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2018 - 04:42am PT
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The UCI has decided that Chris Froome's high salbutamol level did not constitute and Adverse Analytical Finding(AAF). He should now be cleared to ride the Tour de France.
Here's the press release from the UCI:
UCI statement on anti-doping proceedings involving Mr Christopher Froome The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) confirms that the anti-doping proceedings involving Mr Christopher Froome have now been closed.
On 20 September 2017, Mr Froome was notified that a sample collected during the Vuelta a España on 7 September 2017 was reported to contain a concentration of salbutamol in excess of 1000ng/ml.
The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Prohibited List provides that inhaled salbutamol is permitted subject to a maximum dose of 1600 micrograms over 24 hours, not to exceed 800 micrograms every 12 hours (the permitted use), and that a concentration in excess of 1000 ng/ml is an abnormal finding which is presumed not to be the result of a permitted use. The WADA Prohibited List further provides that the athlete can establish that his/her abnormal result was the consequence of a permitted use, in which case it will not be considered as an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF).
The UCI instigated disciplinary proceedings in accordance with the UCI Anti-Doping Rules (ADR), during which Mr Froome exercised his right to prove that his abnormal result was the consequence of a permitted use. The proceedings started with an evidentiary phase, with the UCI and Mr Froome agreeing that the UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal would decide whether certain information could be provided to Mr Froome in preparing his defence. The UCI already sought WADA’s advice at that stage, during which a significant number of expert and scientific reports were submitted on behalf of Mr Froome.
After the evidentiary phase, Mr Froome requested additional information from WADA about the salbutamol regime. Following receipt of information from WADA, Mr Froome then filed his explanation for the abnormal result on 4 June 2018, together with significant additional expert evidence. The UCI has considered all the relevant evidence in detail (in consultation with its own experts and experts from WADA). On 28 June 2018, WADA informed the UCI that it would accept, based on the specific facts of the case, that Mr Froome’s sample results do not constitute an AAF. In light of WADA’s unparalleled access to information and authorship of the salbutamol regime, the UCI has decided, based on WADA’s position, to close the proceedings against Mr Froome.
Whilst the UCI would have obviously preferred the proceedings to have been finalised earlier in the season, it had to ensure that Mr Froome had a fair process, as it would have done with any other rider, and that the correct decision was issued. Having received WADA’s position on 28 June 2018, the UCI prepared and issued its formal reasoned decision as quickly as possible in the circumstances.
The UCI understands that there will be significant discussion of this decision, but wishes to reassure all those involved in or interested in cycling that its decision is based on expert opinions, WADA’s advice, and a full assessment of the facts of the case. The UCI hopes that the cycling world can now turn its focus to, and enjoy, the upcoming races on the cycling calendar.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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This stinks of exactly the same sort of stuff that went on in the Armstrong era. Top rider on the most well-funded team is able get away with something that got other riders banned solely by having more money and lawyers.
And it's not at all suspicious that this only happened when ASO turned the screws.
If this is how it goes with the urine test for salubutamol, they might as well drop that test.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Breckenridge, CO
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Thanks for the update Bruce.
Weird timing as well with just a few days out before the TDF. I guess they will be revising the test limits.
Lots of comments coming thick and fast over on cyclingnews.com!
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Trump
climber
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When they didn’t fail the tests we believed they weren’t cheaters, until upon closer examination, we learned that they were cheaters.
Now we believe that they’re cheaters when they pass the tests, and then when they fail the test, but upon closer examination are vindicated as not having failed the test, we believe, well, that they’re cheaters.
I think the bottom line is that we believe stuff. Might as well enjoy the race. I’ll be rooting for Froome.
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ManMountain
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I remember Bob Roll , with his toothy grin saying " this is how the Italians ride the Giro " as i towed him on his Mt. bike up the 4 mile climb to the start of a Mammoth NORBA race.. That was right before the police pulled us over administrating a stern lecture..
I know nothing about mountain biking but once gave a knackered biker a tow up a steep 4WD road with my Wrangler. I was scared to death he'd hit a rut and end up under a rear tire, but he reassured me everything was normal.
Question: Is it proper for the biker to hang on to the windowsill?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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It's proper only if you are italian...
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
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In 1995, 5-time winner of the Tour de France, Miguel Indurain, and four of his teammates came to Colorado to train for the World Championships. One of the team riders was Andy Hampsten. Andy phoned and asked if I would come to Colorado for three weeks to look after Miguel since I knew both the roads and how to speak Spanish.
So we go out to do a training ride from Breckenridge up and over 11,500' Fremont Pass and out into South Park(yeah, that South Park). About two
miles below the top, at about 11,000', I get dropped(by a 5-time Tour winner, surprise, surprise). The team manager comes up to me in the follow car and tells me to grab the door handle. I comply and the next thing I know we are heading up the road at 40+mph with me in a stupor from the effort and the altitude hanging onto the car door for dear life.
I make it back up to the group, but that doesn't last long. The next time the manager in the car comes up I tell him to wait for me on top. Something about fool me once.....
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Yeah, I saw that one too Bruce, and was tempted to link, but you beat me to it.
The points made in there are pretty valid...the whole system is going to get thrown even further into doubt by this.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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And there was the Norwegian nordic racer lady that was banned from last winters olympics for using the inhaler too many times...The rulings seem very inconsistent...?
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
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We don't really know why WADA decided not to pursue the AAF but it was probably one of two things. Either they didn't think their Salbutamol test was accurate or the level they established for the AAF was too low.
In either case, this has been the WADA test and AAF level for a number of years and athletes have received bans and had their reputations potentially harmed because of it. For the WADA to do an abrupt "about face" is really puzzling unless they can cite some new evidence that brings their previous test/level into doubt.
Hopefully, WADA will be forthcoming with this information in a timely manner so we can all understand what their rationale was and not just continue to think that some is not right here.
Just to give this whole affair a bit of context with regards to other sports the gender question in athletics(AKA track and field) is undergoing the same sort of turmoil with a lot of unanswered questions.
Rottingjohnny,
Norwegian Skier Martin Sundby served a ban for Salbutamol. Therese Johaug was banned for another steroid, clostebol, which was supposedly in the sunburn cream for her lips.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jul 30, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
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Didn't want to post this on the "tour" thread, but talking with my husband, the subject of the drug Tramadol came up. Apparently it is still legal for pro cyclists, but will become illegal next year.
People think of tramadol as a pain killer, acting through an opioid receptor, but back when I used to have bad back pain issues, my doc prescribed it for me saying it was a good one because it also increases the levels of norepinephrine and serotonin. I loved it for long road trips, because you feel no pain and are happy and speedy at the same time.
I'm sure it would be very easy for a pro cyclist to justify Tramadol use, given the physical nature of their jobs. I'll bet it is a decent performance enhancer. Wonder how many pros currently use it?
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2018 - 04:06pm PT
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Phylp,
I don't know how many current pro teams use it, but former Team Sky rider, Michael Barry, said that tramadol was widely used by Team Sky when he was on the team(2010-2012). Given that it's use it still legal I would be willing to bet that it is used a lot by pro riders. It gave me restless leg syndrome and I couldn't get to sleep when I was prescribed it by a doctor.
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Trump
climber
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Jul 30, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
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He’s just as fast as Lance was when the Texan was winning his grand tours and know we know one of the potential reasons why. It appears that cyclists, and athletes in general, still continue to come up with new and amazing ways to explain their use of PEDs Chris Froome has been beating all of Lances climbing times on the training climbs around Nice/Monte Carlo. If Lance was doped then......
So now that we learned that Froome didn’t fail the test, and we learned about all of the misinformation that we had been using to form our well reasoned beliefs, what amazing ways are we going to explain away our old faulty beliefs?
Are we going to believe about ourselves that maybe we’re full of self-confirming sh#t (myself included)? That’s not so appealing.
If Lance was doped and Froome beat him, are we going to believe that Froome was a better athlete than Lance? Or that they both followed a doping schedule designed to maximize their performances on their training rides? The performance enhancing effects of the salbutamol that Froome is using are stronger than the effects of the EPO and growth hormone and steroids that Armstrong used?
Or are we going to come up with some amazing new way to explain to ourselves that what we NOW believe really is the truth (just like we did when we were wrong)? I’m betting on the latter, and I’ll bet the athletes aren’t that different.
If you’re an athlete at the peak of your game you’re going to cheat by using drugs to maximize your performance. If you’re a journalist at the peak of your game you’re going to spread pseudo-scientific innuendo and controversy to maximize your performance. Works for the rest of us.
Decent performance enhancers that are legal?! That’s almost as bad as passing a drug test.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 30, 2018 - 08:41pm PT
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Hey Trump . . . you don't make a lot of sense but Team Sky is not concerned about plastic in the ocean. Where do you think their refuse ends up?
Piss off punter.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Interesting interview of Lance...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
He says there's zero percent chance he would have won anything if he hadn't doped (and others had).
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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At the last winter olimpics all members of Norway team had asthma with corresponding prescriptions.
Who cares?
If Lance was doped and Froome beat him, are we going to believe that Froome was a better athlete than Lance? Yes.
Personally I do not care whether a particular athlet was caught or not.
Anyway, there are a lot of new drugs that were not added to a list of prohibited substances yet.
They ban only particular drugs rather than classes of similar drugs.
So a slightly modified chemical is OK in a brief period of time between its release and addition to a black list.
Who cares?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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The athletes that don't cheat , care...Anybody can cheat...How much fun is cheating knowing you're taking a short cut while others are following the rules...? Must have to do with the bolshevik DNA..?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Another norsk cheater on the road...
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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rottingjohnny:
The athletes that don't cheat , care...Anybody can cheat...How much fun is cheating knowing you're taking a short cut while others are following the rules...? rottingjohnny, how do you define "cheating"?
Were members of Norway team with "asthma" cheating?
Were members of US olympic team with top secret prescriptions (that were exposed by Putin's hackers) cheating?
Are athlets who use substances to be banned tomorrow cheating?
Are athlets with superior inherited genes like Phelps taking a shortcut?
Must have to do with the bolshevik DNA..? You must be progressive liberal.
Typically they resort to ad-hominem attack when they have nothing relevant to say.
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