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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Well deserved...
The kids she spoke with easily saw that “sexual violence is violence” and understood victim-blaming was wrong, University of Colorado Denver criminologist Callie Marie Rennison told Moneyish; they struggled to comprehend why survivors wouldn’t be believed. “I’ll tell you what: If you ever need to feel inspired and uplifted, go talk to some eighth graders,” she said. “If this is what the future looks like, things are going to be a lot better.”
I hope so. America of today is a strange land...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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From the story:
Nursing sadness the day after the 2016 election, Rennison signed up with Emerge Colorado, a training program aimed at upping the number of Democrat women in public office. “I did the training, and I’m ready when the time comes. I’m not just telling people run for office and win — I intend to do the same,” she said. “Nothing is going to change until we do it.”
Damn! I'd vote for her at whatever level she was running, but "Senator Crimpie" has a pretty fine ring to it.
Well done Callie!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Great idea putting Brock Turners mug in the book! Thanks for fighting the battles Callie, Colorado needs some good progressives.
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wayne w
Trad climber
the nw
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Keep up the great work, Callie!
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Represent!
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c wilmot
climber
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Of course her own gender bias in presenting males as the definition of rape is totally ok...
This is nothing more than leftwing activism taking over what once were centers of learning.
Now they are centers of indoctrination
and since this will upset- I suggest directing your gloatrage at all men rather than me- as the "professor" would approve of...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Calli good job
Wilmot are you always like this? Get a life man. I take it with your statement you know her? I could state my thoughts about you based off what You've written, but why waste my time.
Peace
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c wilmot
climber
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Not going with leftwing ideology = a need to get a life
Got it
This kind of anti male shaming where one individuals actions are used as a means to collectively place blame on all males is just another example of small minded thinking which inevitably only leads to more bias (i.e. "Get a life"etc..)
i don't expect any of you to see things as I do. Clearly my reality is drastically differently than yours
Enjoy the herd.
And this nonsense they feed you
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L
climber
It's a Bear Affair
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i don't expect any of you to see things as I do. Clearly my reality is drastically differently than yours
Yes, and until YOU yourself are a victim of rape, sexual abuse, or physical abuse by a larger, stronger male, and join the MAJORITY of these victims who, surprise-surprise, are women, your reality isn't reality. It's bullsh#t.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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L, Locker, thank you for saying as much as I was thinking, but have to watch what I say over public waves. Callie as I know and Dave are great people with a fair amount of intelligents. The issue at hand can not in any form be tolerated and to defend it in any fashion is highly questionable. Would love to be belaying Wilmot on a lead fall, just to question how the "right" felt about secure belays.
Peace
Edit:wilmot, wouldn't want to give credit with a capital w
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c wilmot
climber
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So I need to be raped to understand rape, and since I don't ascribe to this politically driven form of far left politics I don't deserve a capital in my last name..,
That says a lot more about your ethics than mine.
You people really need to take the blinders off your high horses
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Big congrats to Callie for her deserved fame. I've had the joy of meeting her & sharing a drink & conversation, on two occasions. It is very nice to enjoy knowing such a pleasant & friendly legend.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Good on you Callie...you have my vote!
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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I don't take right or left, you probably do need to be subjected to what ever you criticize because truly you really don't have a clue until you've been through whatever is critcized. Capital letter or not you are in your own world.
Peace
Out
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c wilmot
climber
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Telling someone they should be subjected to rape because they don't agree with you is quite absurd...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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It's a double edged sword...There are people that exploit the sexual assault violations for personal gain and people with legit claims that get ignored because of the frauds...? Who you gonna believe...?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Brown...You crack me up...Knock it off...
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nah000
climber
now/here
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wilmot wrote: "Of course her own gender bias in presenting males as the definition of rape is totally ok..." and then : "This kind of anti male shaming where one individuals actions are used as a means to collectively place blame on all males"
could you quote me the lines where this happened? i read the article and thought it was pretty good at both using non-gendered language throughout and also not blaming one gender nor the other. but maybe i missed something.
closest i saw it coming to your claim was the statement: "Men, of course, should be part of the solution."
i didn't take that to be a blaming statement. rather it was just seeming to say that when around one out of six american females [and one out of about thirty-three american males] will be raped or attempted to be raped in their lifetime that e'erybody, whether male or female, has a role to play in working towards reducing these shItty numbers.
or at least that is how i read it.
also, while you present the important to consider issue of defining rape as a solely male problem, as a leftist one, i'd argue it's just a straight up cultural problem that is not just limited to the left.
while you may already know, for others who don't, it was only on jan. 1, 2013 that the FBI changed their definition of rape from " “The carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.” to the non-gendered: "“Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”
ie. as Locker points out, rape does happen both towards males and due to female perpetrators and likely in numbers that would be surprising to many [or at least they were to me], even at the same time that they are relatively small as compared to the number of male perpetrators...
and so your seeming desire to in part make sure that this awareness is spread is an admirable one.
i just don't get why you think the partisan sniping is necessary or truthful, as this "oversight" has from my perspective not known political bounds...
and edit to add: and more importantly congrats to crimper... always enjoyed her posts...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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ALL HAIL THE PARROT WHISPERER AND HER IMPORTANT WORK!
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floydd
Trad climber
ruin
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Dec 10, 2017 - 06:07am PT
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people like wilmot continue to validate and
promote the sick culture where women
are assaulted physically, suppressed professionally,
and disrespected in general.
the prevalent culture in america has been, and now continues to be
male dominance over the female.
it's bullsh#t. the grace, prowess, intelligence and beauty that
many women embody is a cultural treasure that all men need to
respect, gather and learn from. then america could stand up a little straighter.
of course any gender can rape; stupid argument, little willy.
the worst aspect of american culture is fearful, ignorant, and greedy white guys like yourself. they suffer from a dearth of substance (courage, kindness, compassion, and humility,) thus they reach beyond themselves and validate their existence through material accessories.
your only hope, wilmot, is to find a mistakenly submissive girl that is burdened with the baggage of an abusive father and thus suffers a damaged esteem.
i'm teaching my daughters to identify your kind. you're easy to spot: you've NOTHING in the eyes, your soul is broke down and thus your spirit is disgustingly sallow.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 10, 2017 - 06:22am PT
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Kevin...if a woman considers it sexual harassment it IS sexual harassment. The word "no" is in everyone's vocabulary.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 10, 2017 - 06:33am PT
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Lying is another matter and, unfortunately, with the example of the creature in the White House it's in vogue right now.
Off to some crack climbing!
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c wilmot
climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 06:42am PT
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Floydd - that is some of the most deranged and hateful nonsense I have ever read. You need help bud
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floydd
Trad climber
ruin
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Dec 10, 2017 - 06:55am PT
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well said, from a cheap, white, made-in-america male.
your message, though, is sleight.
just shooting words from your gob gives them no flight.
your man trump does the same shite;
and so many of us see right through your (an his) decorated veil.
i suggest that you take your song to another stage.
this audience, whom is comprised mostly of thick-charactered men and WOMEN, easily deflects your worthless messages of ignorance and intimidation.
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c wilmot
climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 06:58am PT
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More delusions...floydd-I don't support trump or any other politician.its just theatre. Your assumptions about me are laughably insane. You should really tone down the random hate that's bordering on psychosis...
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 07:00am PT
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I saw the link to the article featuring Callie's words on my FB feed, and when someone made a comment about "emails she might receive," meaning hate mail, her response was that there had been only four in all the time since she was first put in the public spotlight. It seemed, by the way she wrote it, that the number of four made up an extremely small percentage of communications she had received.
Let's hope the ST thread doesn't up the percentage much. She is a very intelligent and experienced professor who does her research. She's not making things up.
As for false accusations - I think this is best managed as a separate discussion to be had, and one that will probably gain traction if the #MeToo campaign continues. As it should!
I wouldn't know where that sort of a campaign might start, but perhaps it could begin by educating our children on recognizing signs of a person prone to cra-cra(for lack of a better word) and extricating themselves safely from the relationship. Many men have had to do that - just as many women who have found themself in a relationship with a domineering or abusive person have had to save themself; hopefully early enough on so as not to suffer consequences.
I know that for myself, when I was a dog walker in NYC, I was EXTREMELY careful when in the presence of children. They will often, in a playground area, come running up unattended by their steward, to play with puppy. That made me uncomfortable - because I know it was remotely possible that I could have somehow become entangled if one of those children had been abused by a stranger. Questions about where the child had been, whom interacted with..... I know - a really, really small chance that would happen and a finger pointed at me(although I WAS questioned by detectives once when a building in which I had a client and had walked the dog on a weekend, which was out of the ordinary as I was a weekday walker for her), was burglarized.
But I knew, it WAS a potentially vulnerable thing to do - be around youngsters unsupervised. And so I took actions to NOT BE IN THAT POSITION. I would ask look around to see if there was a mom or dad or sitter in the area and make eye contact, Wait for their acknowledgement that they were aware about the kids, wave back and ask "Is it okay for your little one(s) to play with puppy?" No supervising person in the area? Sorry, children, I am out of there fast. "Puppy needs to get back home. Have a nice day!" and leave.
I know that scenario is different than a man and his partners, associates, coworkers, and such, but perhaps people DO need to begin discussions as to how to insulate themselves from vulnerable situations. Doors left open in office discussions, an assistant present when having disciplinary conversations with a subordinate, groups for after work cool-down drinks and LEAVING BEFORE it comes down to just oneself with another person, landlord doesn't show up unannounced(which is against the laws in at least NYC). Perhaps landlord needs to think further about HOW to protect themself and the building handymen/women since they could potentially be vulnerable.
I know that in this forum there have been times when guys have written "but the sex with the crazy ones is sublime." Well......just like I have a rule that if a man EVER lays a hand on my in a physically aggressive way, it's over, a guy who wants to live to an old age unmolested by false accusations, maybe they ought to think about the risk they put themself at when engaging with people they can see might be potentially problematic. I know...that seems like asking a lot. "Why should I have to" one might ask. In response to that, I would say that there is QUITE an extensive list of behaviors/actions I take or avoid in order to keep myself out of potentially problematic situations. On a daily basis. As do many women. Is it foolproof? No of course not. But if the issue is one you are concerned with, it's one you ought to address.
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floydd
Trad climber
ruin
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Dec 10, 2017 - 07:26am PT
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kevin the culture of which i speak is below the surface of america.
you cite sports and construction work as tangible evidence countering sexism.
i grew up in a house where my dad filled out my moms voter pamplets. her role was assigned in my family. she did the domestic duties. her dreams and aspirations came second to her assignment. she knew better than to pursue greater horizons.
she existed beneath a pervasive fear of voicing her opinion. in my dad's opinion, her greatest strength was her humility and submission.
then i saw it in the work place. i work in construction, too. but i'm on the engineering end, not the field. the office ethos was dominated by the zipper-in-fronts. women pull open drawers and closed them according to instruction. they brought us pastries and coffee. some of them broke through the societal hymen, but by and large their gender was under-represented in the most responsible roles.
on and on i could go, the evidence is everywhere and gross. at least to those whom look with critical inspection and a willingness to grow.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 07:49am PT
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Mama told me not to come
She said
That ain't no way to have fun, son
on the other hand
Mama tried (and that's half of the battle right there, eh)
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Dec 10, 2017 - 09:24am PT
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Rape and sexual abuse is not a subject I am comfortable with; it is the most heinous crime one can perpetrate on another.
I kinda have to agree with Warbler in that women have made huge strides in the work force, at least from my perspective. My former employer actively pursued diversity, not just lip service. In a span of about 5 years the number of minority and female management rose dramatically. I think the company is better for it
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John M
climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 09:47am PT
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Translation: Doesn't get laid, blames women.
Come on man.. you don't need to resort to that. This is an important conversation. Lets at least keep it civil.
Congrats Callie.. Good job!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:16am PT
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So rape has some pretty specific legal definitions. What are the stats for men getting convicted for raping someone vs. women being convicted likewise.
Oh yeah, and of course, men just do not report with the same freequency [sic].
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:47am PT
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A huge bump for Callie, and the #MeeToo action!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:52am PT
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I can't think of a more knowledgable, intelligent and compelling person to take up the cause of women and give voice to those who have suffered from the injustices of our cultural norms, in this case women abused by men.
These cultural norms allowed men, powerful not only physically but also economically and politically, to coerce women into doing things they didn't want to do for the quid pro quo it offered, in all aspects of our culture. In the most horrific cases this was a matter of life or death for the women.
That these particular cultural norms are no longer acceptable will make the resulting culture better, in my opinion, even if at the expense of those who gained from them, and who are reluctant to see the changes.
As all things dealing with societal practice, we all have a voice in the changes, and we all get to choose what sort of society we wish to live in, and to pass on to our kids.
Props to Callie for her commitment to her convictions and her choice to be actively involved for those changes she believes are important.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:02am PT
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I'm with Ed et al. on this. I think we're finally seeing a societal change with regards to how women are treated. Of course, it's long past due. I think that Stanford creep can't get enough misery. That photo should help.
Jim D., however, said something that is a little scary if you just think about it a little--even if I do agree in broad principle--that if a woman thinks it's sexual harassment, then it is. Having worked and dealt with some pretty unstable sorts--paranoid, man-hating, etc.--this kind of generalized thinking is WAY dangerous. We do need some sort of standard to evaluate the degree and kind of problem we're dealing with. The idea of college campus tribunals adjudicating rape and assault cases horrifies me, for example. Due process is critical!
Anyway, props and respect to Crimpie!
BAd
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c wilmot
climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:11am PT
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Rape and sexual assault have been cultural norms?
I am sorry but that is nonsense
You are falling into the politicians trap of blaming society collectively for a problem that has everything to do with individual behavior. This is done when they themselves are found to be at blame- suddenly it's a"cultural" thing... they even have the gall to demand that they receive sexual harrassement training-as though they have been unaware of what constitutes ethical behavior
all of these people knew full well their behavior was wrong and frankly- criminal
But they commit these offenses anyway,because- they don't care . Which is why they acted in such a manner until they were forced to stop. And often-even that is it enough as Anthony Wiener has shown.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:20am PT
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Rape and sexual assault have been cultural norms?
I am sorry but that is nonsense
That is your opinion based on your experiences, there are many people I know who have had different experiences than you, and have very different opinions.
Removing the discussion from the realm of ipse dixit to research is something that Callie has been involved in during her career. Having had discussions with her about her work (and reading some of her papers) were within the realm of good science and scholarship. That is usually the base I'm most comfortable operating from, and that also informs opinion and puts one's experience in context.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:23am PT
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:27am PT
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Callie is spot on. The world is changing this year. The culture is surging forward to better place. This move by her is a big part of it.
Men who abuse women are being called out and made to pay. This needs to continue.
Those who can't see it have hit an intellectual ceiling of their own creation and perhaps inability to face the fact that they are part of the problem.
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c wilmot
climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:40am PT
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I didn't realize Callie was a poster here. I assumed this was a Ken m political thread with a link to a random article...
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:44am PT
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Dr. Callie = Crimpergirl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:53am PT
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I assumed this was a Ken m political thread with a link to a random article...
you assume a lot, and often
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c wilmot
climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:58am PT
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That's pretty childish ed. I would expect more out of a man of your intellect
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 10, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
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Current America has a culture of lies, manipulation and denial. The master of the game has been chosen to president. The president is a symptom of the cultural disease, as is Clinton - the children of Bernard de Mandeville...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:23pm PT
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"Deserved Fame"
No mention in this curriculum vitae of climbing. That is not where one normally finds interests outside of one's profession. You look to a resume for that, which is generally much shorter than the CV.
http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/SPA/FacultyStaff/Faculty/Pages/CallieRennison.aspx
This woman has more talent than most of you in her left thumb than you have in your entire body (Thank you, Fritz, for that). I'm pretty sure she's laughing her ass off at some of the BS going down on this thread.
You folks sure know how to waste your time, I'm tellin ya.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
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Ekat nailed it, I have nothing to add except anyone looking for an argument might consider first re-reading the link in the first post and reflecting on it some more: "GoodF*#kingGod! How can something this well written be misconstrued so badly? Only on TheTaco!
FAK!
Crimpie, you are incredible!"
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 10, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
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Sex and the withholding of it can be, and often is, a tool for gaining power.
Men are really that simple? They’ll grovel if they don’t get sex? Glad the men I’ve known are more complicated than that.
Susan
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 10, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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Women manipulate men with sex all the time, and have for all time.
Victims? I’m very sorry for their gullibility.
Susan
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Krease
Gym climber
the inferno
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Dec 10, 2017 - 05:03pm PT
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Only weak mem allow themselves to be manipulated by sex. Jesus Fuking Christ, playing up to stereotypes much? You have to rise about evolutionary drive at some point, for fuks sake.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 10, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
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Yes, but down thru history powerful men have been weak in this regard....Cleopatra comes to mind. If the bible is your thing the allegory of Adam and Eve says it all.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
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...
yeah but Brock fingered an unconscious girl, so, f*#k him. Maybe send hate mail that way?
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:04pm PT
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Is the idea that some women might provide or withhold sex to gain some power, really being suggested as equivalent to, or a justification for some men abusing their power to gain sex?
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:20pm PT
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Right on, Callie!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 11, 2017 - 01:23am PT
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Wow, I didn't click on this thread at first, but surfing the Taco Stand I was curious.
I did not (edit) know by the thread head it was about such a topic. Glad I clicked on and read the link that Ken M posted. (I have to say, good professional work Callie.)
A lot of "interesting" posts on this thread. Some to reflect upon.
Firstly a disclaimer, I am a liberal raised by a widowed mother of four children (five but one sister died of polio at age seven in 1952, I was born in '56) who was one of the first females in the dental profession in West Virginia. My mother was not a feminist but was brought up to believe in equality across all sectors - gender, ethnic, religion, etc.
My mother brought her children up that way as well.
So I may have a sort of bias to a woman's point of view, being raised by one (I was five months old when my dad died, mom never remarried), but if there is a bias it is just a small one, if that.
About the metoo campaign, it is good in many ways but there could be a backlash if there are too many false accusations, which may then discredit those with a genuine "case". I will agree to a small extent to Kevin's assertion that sometimes it may be "presumed guilty before innocence".
And I will never acquiesce to the "sometimes the innocent have to be sacrificed for the better". An innocent person should not have to pay the price of the guilty.
But there is a cultural change and Callie and others are helping to facilitate that change, for the better, but careful paths need to be tread.
There have been some sensible posts on this thread (Ed and Bad Climber are just two that come to mind, and Donini as well)
I think that Happiegrrrl2's post of Dec 10 07:00am PT is a very sensible one for people of both genders to follow. Her advice/suggestions...
For example...
groups for after work cool-down drinks and LEAVING BEFORE it comes down to just oneself with another person,
Yes, one Thursday evening, down at the pub, just two of us from the office were left. The bookkeeper/accountant and I, We were both intoxicated. She started talking about sex, I had been single and lonely for years. We both decided, why not. I went into the gent's toilets to buy some condoms (yes, now in Ireland, there are vending machines in the men's loo, also in the women's as I am told. What a change from 20 or so years ago. One used to have to go to Northern Ireland to buy contraceptives. Not that I ever did, I was a celibate 'monk' for years, hah hah, not that I am religious).
We got in to the taxi to head to my flat in Dun Laoghaire. Kissing, fondling each other. Then I realized, this ain't right, this is not me. She is drunk, so am I.
I stopped the cab at Merrion Square, got out, paid the taxi man (I knew, a cab firm we used for company purposes) to take said colleague home and caught a cab myself.
So, I extricated myself from what could have been a difficult situation "down the road". Neither of us ever spoke of it again. (Yet, people in the office, a small magazine, knew. The barman at the pub had loose lips apparently, as he saw us getting quite 'close'.)
So Happiegrrrl2's advice is sound. Regardless of gender, if one finds oneself in a possible difficult situation, get out.
I can honestly say with full confidence I have never taken advantage of anybody. I was brought up that way. And there have been time when my morals could have been compromised, but never were, I made sure of that. I hark back to my mom's words: "Respect people, and you will get respect."
And for those who say that this thread may generate reasonable thought on the issue, I agree.
EDIT
Storytelling is my love and trade at times. I do not mind disclosing certain personal things if it will advance the story and dialogue. I have nothing to hide, but fear itself.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 11, 2017 - 02:51am PT
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From President John F. Kennedy's address at the Free University of Berlin (26 June 1963)
The duty of the scholar, of the educated man, of the man or woman whom society has developed talents in, the duty of that man or woman is to help build the society which has made their own advancement possible.
What does truth require? It requires us to face the facts as they are, not to involve ourselves in self-deception; to refuse to think merely in slogans. [...] let us deal with the realities as they actually are, not as they might have been, and not as we wish they were.
[...]
The scholar, the teacher, the intellectual, have a higher duty than any of the others, for society has trained you to think as well as do.
Crimpie, your work is much appreciated. Thank you.
Mouse from Merced
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 11, 2017 - 06:21am PT
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#metoo
You might notice that a large percentage of people who posted with the hashtag when it was in it's ascent in social media included some reference examples of what they had endured.
What the F*#K is the matter with you people? You are freaking out that women have HAD ENOUGH?????? For F*#K's SAKE.
I agree that a man will be damaged by false accusations. NO ONE would dispute that fact. POINT TAKEN.
What "it seems" some are contending is that women must be silenced on the topic of molestation, harrassment, abuse, rape, because of the potential a man, some man, somewhere, could be falsely accused.
DO YOU SEE how ABSURD that is??????
As for "more damaged" - I'd like to have some examples - CONCRETE and FACTUAL that have ACTUALLY HAPPENED. They needn't be examples the poster has personally experienced(privacy due, of course). But please don't make up any thing you post.
To start things off, I'll list some of the damages to my life, as a female who can - I really can - list more than 100 instances ofhaving experienced sexual tresspass. Add in intimidation, and the number would be only a little more, as I learned by the age of six to limit access to my person from those I considered "risky."
List - and maybe I will edit and add, because otherwise I would be here all day and that would be a time suck I don't care to engage in.
 As I said, by the age of six, I was CONSCIOUSLY "limiting access." That meant that for the last FORTY-NINE YEARS, I have had either in the front of my mind, or as a program running in the background, an awareness of who is in the room, who is in my immediate space, who is "out there on the horizon" and what does it seem like they are thinking.
I made a CONSCIOUS decision to NOT HAVE CHILDREN soon after I began menstruating, because I did not feel I could confidently protect my child from being abused. I FORFEITED motherhood - one of the most joyful experiences ANY person has in life. One of the GREATEST learning experiences. One of the most intense ways of giving and receiving love.
(edit)I was 38 when I finally felt I could safely protect a child. 38 and now I have to learn how to become part of a relationship that might include children. Surprise - there are a hell of a lot of steps that, at least healthfully, go down before pushing baby in a baby carriage. Look in the mirror one day and see just how much damage has been repaired, yet how much more work to go. "Will I make it before I hit menopause?" Unknown, at the time, and hopes dwindling each year. Answer has arrived, by the way. Though I could still be a step mother, and yes - I DO hope for that, if it comes to pass. I am 55 years old and still wondering if some day I may experience motherhood
I began gaining f*#king weight to "become unappealing," at the age of seventeen. To this day, I struggle with making the commitment to lose and be more healthy. It is almost like my spirit was broken, and the effort to mend that part of it has been put on hold time and time again.
I drank
I used pot daily, and ALL day, from the age of 14 to 21
I dress in baggy clothing. The times I have worn attractive dress, even though I am still careful not to be too sexually revealing, the compliments I receive - though appreciated - are a reminder of how "unnoticed" I go for the more than 99% of the rest of the time, because why? Because I am not "on display????? WAT IS WRONG WITH ME AS SIMPLY A PERSON? Isn't my wit enough? My kindness? My intelligence and sense of humor? My value as an artist? My ability to throw down one hell of a fest when I host a party? And guess what - I actually don't have any problem having sex and have been told very positive things about the experiences people have had with me. But because SOME men act like pigs if you display so much as an inkling of sexuality, it just became easier to hide it. I had HOPED, all these years, that some guys would see my essence, get to know me, find out I am likeable as a woman.... but year after year I watch my other single, and newly single friends meet, fall in love, marry. THANK GOD I don't suffer the loneliness that I see some people endure when they are "out of relationship." I have listened to people talk about suicide, they feel life is so unworth living alone.
There are more "damages." Like I said - I don't want to go on and on. That was just a five minute barf-out of words, and I have a nice day ahead of me which I don't want to have "taken down" by the emotional exhaustion that can come with "dwelling too much."
So - about the damages men who have been falsely accused have. Again - please don't post "in theory" examples. I gave of myself - not "some women might feel" instances. Go on now - it actually might help "us" understand you better, if you can express how you have been formed as a vessel of life. We might just see those chips and cracks as intrinsic beauty rather than flaws.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 11, 2017 - 06:27am PT
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If someone makes a move, and the other person consents, regardless of the circumstances, there's an ethical, or on site problem perhaps, in the workplace, but no legal problem
Well that makes no sense. So someone is holding a knife to my neck or threatening my child in the next room and I consent to the “move” I haven’t been raped. How novel.
Susan
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tolerant
Trad climber
seige pitch 1
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Dec 11, 2017 - 06:29am PT
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happie try to disregard willy.
he's vitriol and afraid. very difficult to
work with his kind.
putin likes him.
because scared prey is easy to manipulate into a cage.
thanks happie.
thanks callie.
please know and find comfort in the fact
that there are many men of courage and conviction
that are advocating for the equal treatment and respect (imagine that!)
of women.
i'm a logger in a hick town, and i ran an add promising a percentage of my income to communities threatened by the disease shooting through the veins of american culture right now.
i give to the gay community. i give to womens advocacy groups. i give to immigrants and refugees.
and you can't believe how well this community received and reciprocated my add. i won tons of customers. and guess what?
many of them would tip me a few hundred over the top, which we both agreed i'd spread laterally, to the groups referenced above.
people like wilmot are dissolving from the inside out; that acrid sensation within their hearts and mouths must taste horrible.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 11, 2017 - 07:45am PT
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happiegrrrl2,
I’m sorry that you’ve had a very difficult life. It’s very sad for me to read your post, and it’s understandable that you could be very angry about it. Your decisions are sometimes difficult for me to understand, even though you’ve explained them here. In my view, some of them look destructive.
There’s pain, and then there’s suffering. The latter is what one makes of the former. These things can spiral out of control.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:18am PT
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I'm glad the sexual harassment hysteria is being brought to the natonal fore front hoping it will end ... Not picking sides in the Wilmot / Happie Girl debate but i have seen 3 different cases in the government sector where women with major integrity issues tried to cherry pick the sexual harassment / discrimination laws by filing cry-baby lawsuits...One of the women won several small settlements because as my attorney friend said " it's cheaper for the government to pay a small settlement than to drag it out in court.."
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BrassNuts
Trad climber
Save your a_s, reach for the brass...
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:31am PT
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I am very proud of Callie and her work! She goes to great effort to perform objective, accurate and professional research on difficult topics. She, like many others, is making a difference in getting the world to a better place through education and awareness.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 11, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
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You ask for an example. Recently, at the school where I taught some time ago, a sexual assault charge was brought against a young man, a football player. Under Obama guidelines, an administrator – I don’t recall her title, maybe Director of Diversity – assembled a panel of faculty and staff to adjudicate the charge. When the victim testified, she was adamant that the sex was consensual, but a friend of hers (who presumably wasn’t there at the time) said the charge was correct.
The panel, after deliberation, concluded the young man was guilty. The basis for their decision: there was a “likelihood” the incident had taken place, a purely subjective probability agreed upon and permitted under the guidelines. He was either suspended or expelled and left campus, then, a short time later, filed a suit in federal court in Denver. After some time a financial settlement from the university (of undisclosed amount) was awarded.
I haven’t kept track of him, and I can’t even remember his name, but I’ve wondered about the whole scenario from time to time. The matter was kept away from law enforcement, so presumably he didn’t acquire the label of “sex offender” or the like, and his girlfriend (anonymous) wasn’t harmed by the media. Is it possible the two of them scammed the university for a fair amount of money? Probably not, but placing the incident in the hands of law enforcement might have been a better way to go.
This is from memory – and I’m old so there may that factor to consider. Still, an interesting scenario. If Crimpergirl is familiar with this case she may correct my mistakes and give us a different slant on the incident.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Dec 11, 2017 - 07:16pm PT
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The attacks on wilmot are way over the top
are they though?
wilmot started by fabricating a series of complaints about an article.
and if you [TW] think i'm wrong using the word fabricate, i would ask you, as i asked him, to copy and paste any quotes directly from the article that he can find to back up his claims. [which to reiterate were: "Of course her own gender bias in presenting males as the definition of rape" and "This kind of anti male shaming where one individuals actions are used as a means to collectively place blame on all males"]
he didn't, because in all likelihood he can't.
and so until he or you steps up to the plate and shows otherwise, the operative word is fabricate.
then he usurped the tag #metoo, a movement where many women, for the first time in their lives, felt like they could speak publicly of the abuse/harassment/rapes that they survived, so that he could be "witty" and could again double down on his apparent lies.
so at least im[singular]o, au contraire on the "over the top" opinion as i'm more of the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" opinion on this one.
and re: your opinion re wilmot? who you choose to defend speaks volumes.
now... as per you and all of the folks pointing out how men have been oppressed and justice has been unfairly applied. here are some, imo, important facts, as best as multiple studies have shown to be the case [ie. i've tried to use consensus opinion on this and am if anything trying to use more conservative numbers: the point being that statistics are always going to give a range... so even if we don't know the exact number, there has been enough study over the years to show that the following, with usually less than +/- 5% variance, is true in america]:
15% of women have been raped [with another 3% of women having attempted rape towards them] so 18% of women have been victims of rape or attempted rape
3% of men have been the victims of rape or attempted rape [ie. ~10% of rape victims are male]
98% of rapists are men
~9% of college men admit to rape or attempted rape
~5% of reported rape is based on false allegation
for every 1000 rapes, 6 rapists will be incarcerated
for every 100 sexual assaults, 65 to 84 of them will not be reported.
source idaho.gov
source moneyish.com
source umd.edu
source oneinfourusa.org
source rainn.org
and so, while i get that a bunch of you have had either direct or indirect experiences on the other side of the sword... and i agree that is horrible...
and so i also agree that there is no doubt that any system of human justice is going to have its failures. [aka there are shItty people the globe over and as women are people, there are some shItty women]
still i have three questions for those of you pushing the "other side":
1. do you believe that if 1 out of every 6 men was penetrated against their will in their lifetimes, that the incarceration rate would be less than 1%?
2. if 1 out of every 6 people were murdered, would any of you have an issue if we said that we lived in a "homicidal culture"?
3. if [as ironically is actually the case] 10% of insurance claims turned out to be fraudulent, and in a situation where insurance claims only paid out 0.6% of the time in part due to their being reported only ~30% of the time, would your first response to a discussion of insurance "justice" be the importance of those 10% or so of cases that were fraudulent?
in short, while all of the many debates that have been brought up [the use of the words "rape culture" - something that even many feminists debate; the false claims, especially against men that sometimes make it through the system; the need for us to not jump to mob justice; the recognition that it is not only males who rape and it is not only females who are victims...] are all important and valid, what is from my perspective invalid is to not acknowledge that all of these "quibbles" are, on a national scale neither of the same scale nor collective resultant trauma as the ongoing major problem at hand.
which from my perspective is simply this:
1 out of 6 women will be either raped or attempted to be raped in their lifetime
65 to 84 out of every 100 sexual assaults will go unreported.
6 out of 1000 rapes will result in someone being incarcerated.
and so while this last statement is aggressive, i believe it needs to be said: if you're not starting all of your "quibbles" regarding these discussions with at least an acknowledgment that the issues as presented above are problematic, then from my perspective you are like someone who complains about insurance fraud as a vehicle to undermine those who are rightfully attempting to find justice in a hypothetical system which delivered justice only 0.6% of the time.
ie. however granularly small: you're part of the problem.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
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Been down so long it looks like up to him
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:31pm PT
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Society having to catch up with great women isn't exactly a new phenom...way to go for shining an undeniable light.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
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The Warbler spews:
The attacks on wilmot are way over the top
If you can't articulate why you object to his opinions, or mine, maybe you should reassess what prompts the vitriol before resorting to absurd straw man arguments, ad hominem attacks and cyber psycho analysis.
OK, I've resisted responding to you two sickos for a number of daze, but here goes!
Wilmot reaps what he sows, which is reactions to his nasty attacks on what he percieves as liberal posts. He's obviously a sick & bitter right-wing fuk.
As for you Warbler, it is obvious that you have a real problem with assertive women & you enjoy making a long-winded arse of yourself on this forum.
I'm sorry for both of your "little-lives."
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
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One foot on the platform, the other foot in the grave
Gimme cookie
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Dec 11, 2017 - 11:27pm PT
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There is something very upsetting about this article, and it is not what most people think it is. I am familiar with this case for reasons I'd rather not go into, and there are facts that are misrepresented in the article.
Brock Turner was never convicted of rape. He was never even tried for rape. He was charged with rape, but the charges were dropped. Look it up, the case is well documented.
Callie Marie Rennison published a lie.
You can say that he committed sexual assault and that is the same thing but it is not. There is a specific law for rape. Turner was first charged with rape but the charges are dropped. What he did was a crime, and a bad one, but a less serious crime than rape. But the textbook says he committed rape.
A professor should know better. Why are people here celebrating a lie?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 12, 2017 - 01:38am PT
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A professor should know better. Why are people here celebrating a lie?
Well, it was the truth when it was posted.
As far as I can tell, no one seems real happy, so there's no real celebration in "party-hearty terms;"
but in "hey, you go girl terms," it's New Years Eve and a birthday rolled into one.
And I bet SusanA isn't your real name, either, but a white lie, that's okay. We don't all do it, but I don't have numbers to back me up. Sorry.
As they say in some of the westerns I have seen, Brock was guilty of something, so he probably deserves what he gets...a sullied reputation, which should serve as a warning to others.
nah000, that was an absolutely stellar post, but watch your split infinitives.
--Mr. Pickywicky
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Dec 12, 2017 - 02:13am PT
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6 out of 1000 rapes will result in someone being incarcerated.
This statistic really has to be put into perspective to be meaningful. The source does just that: "20 out of 1000 robberies will result in someone being incarcerated.
https://rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
You can look at the charts and draw your own conclusions, but the biggest difference between the two is % reported to the police (robberies are twice as likely to be reported). The criminal justice system does seem to have a harder time arresting, prosecuting, and convicting rape cases, but it isn't as large of a difference as many would assume.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 12, 2017 - 03:06am PT
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What color is the sky in your world?
Good one.
Yeah, I wonder about this SusanA. I had time to kill this morning, so I trawled this person's posts. Troll comes to mind.
I had time to kill this morning,
This forum is about the only one I contribute to on a meaningful basis, so it sort of means something to me.
Yes, the BBC HYS (Have Your Say) forum on football (soccer) I occasionally put an input into, and sometimes Quora (what a waste of time), and OZY (somewhat similar, minutes eating up my life, I should be climbing instead).
Once in a great while, the Irish Times, LA Times, SF Chronicle (and some others and all very limited, like my history on any of those forums may be about five or so posts each, max).
The Taco Stand is my preferred way of making an ass of myself.
EDIT
But this is a serious issue and topic and I do not mean to belittle it by any means. I will have a bit more to say, but I have to bicycle to the bus in Rosslare Harbour to get into town, to the credit union, I have a loan that needs payment today.
EDIT
In yesterday’s Irish Independent, a letter to the editor, the woman/writer spoke of harassment and then in her final paragraphs she mentioned that some taxi men in Dublin will not take on a single woman as fare, as they are afraid of any sort of allegations of abuse as such. The woman wrote that is discrimination, and I suppose it is in some terms/ways.
But in the atmosphere today, can one blame a taxi man for saying, “no way. I have a life to live.”
So the gal is left waiting for a taxi, on a cold lonely night. That is also not right.
Where is the balance?
EDIT
Darn, I was just headed out when the Calor (company) gas guy showed up to top up the tank (as mentioned before, I live in the sticks so no gas lines coming in, just the natural gas tank).
The Calor guy, Christian, he is from Hungary, emigrated to Ireland five years ago, his girlfriend is from Italy finishing her PhD in Sociology (thesis/dissertaion? Yep, gender harassment or something along those lines) at University of Sussex near Brighton, England (though she is based in Dublin).
My point? We live on a planet, we are a global species. We move, we immigrate/emigrate, and hopefully contribute to society. To the human condition. To the earth and its many lifeforms, flora and fauna.
Am I an idealist? Darn right. Am I a realist? Only when the need arises, hah hah
Gotta leg it now for the bus.
I do these EDITs because I do not want to bump a non-climbing thread to the top nor do I way to be accused of chain-posting as some ass wipe put it. I am feisty, take me on. I use logic and I use emotion, which may sound contradictory, but are they? I usually write from the heart, but sometimes that nuisance of a brain gets involved.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 12, 2017 - 04:40am PT
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Hah hah Zip that video always cracks me up.
I missed the bus (in more ways than one), so I bicycled home. I have until tomorrow to get money into the credit union, so now I can make a further ass of myself on the Taco Stand.
I gotta make you understand, I'll never give you up Supertopians, never going to lie, never going to desert you.
hah hah funny video.
EDIT
So the gal is left waiting for a taxi, on a cold lonely night. That is also not right.
And Bushwhatever, nice poetry and doggerel, but that is mine. How egotistical of me. But I am a writer, published, and I have written some things on this forum over the past 12 years that have made their way into the 'unknown',. I am not happy with that, I make my living by writing, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
But to quote (attributed to Brendan Behan): "Critics are like eunuchs, they can talk about it but they cannot do it."
And I will use that in time immortal.
Back to the subject, if any neanderthals think that woman have had the upper hand in patriarchal societies, think again. Looking at human history, on an evolutionary basis, and not the creationist Adam and Eve, (or is that Adam, I am Even?), who had the upper hand?
History tells the story.
EDIT
And around the campfire a very good man, Rik Rieder, told me, "this place is a zoo (Camp 4), and the animals have escaped'. I do not know if he recalls saying that to me, but it stuck with me.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:00am PT
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Happiegrrrl2
I know that loneliness. It is not fun.
But if one is strong, that strength helps.
Tears on the pillow do not mean tears for tomorrow. ©
I am a writer, journalist in five countries, and a zoologist. I have been around the block. But it never ceases to amaze me, the human spirit.
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:03am PT
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Well, it was the truth when it was posted.
No it was never the truth.
There really are rapists out there, people who were convicted of rape. Someone who is a professor writing a college textbook on criminology did not even get that right. Of all the examples in the world, they choose one that was completely wrong. People will say its just some detail but that is the whole reason there are textbooks....to teach the details!
This ME TOO thing that is happening is both good and bad. There will be more sexual criminal exposed and that is good. There will be more people falsely accused and that is bad. It is good when people tell the TRUTH it is bad when people LIE. This textbook and the magazine article is promoting a LIE.
And now everybody is celebrating the lie because that is what angry mobs do. I've seen western movies too, Mr. Mouse, and the angry mobs do not result in justice.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:08am PT
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Wow, SusanA, if you are genuine, what a statement.
But looking at your previous posts, just how angry are you?
Someone who is a professor writing a college textbook on criminology did not even get that right. Of all the examples in the world, they choose one that was completely wrong.
I do not know if you are right or wrong. I just have known over the years on this forum, Crimpie is pretty solid and upright.
Academics can get it wrong. Sometimes the Ivory Tower soothes them. Sometimes they do not see the real world. Crimpie does not come across that way, if my reading is correct.
As for anybody's CVs I can only attest for my own.
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:22am PT
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You can attack me all you want but I've been though this before. My brother was falsely accused of sexual assault by his ex girlfriend in college. It did not go to trial because there was a security video of the dormitory that shows he was never even there. But he was arrested and accused and nobody believed him except his family and friends but that did not matter. It was a terrifying experience for my family and is still very upsetting many years later. He transferred to a different school and stopped playing baseball because of it. But he was lucky because If it were not for that video his life would be over.
There are evil men but there are evil women too. The TRUTH is what matters. It is not ok to lie to protect women.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:26am PT
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Well, vid_wise
We now know that not only can white folks not jump, they can't dance either. Some are adept child molesters.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Equal time (semi, that is - no complainers thirteen years old)
NFL Network suspends Marshall Faulk, other ex-players over sexual misconduct allegations
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:36am PT
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You can attack me all you want
I am not attacking you Susan, where did it appear I was? I was questioning your authenticity, that is all. I see that not as an attack, but a question. Have you answered it appropriately?
And if what you write is true, a miscarriage of justice in the least.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:42am PT
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MikeL - Don't be sorry for me. I came through my earlier experience in one piece. While true that there have been some after-effects, I have a pretty fine life.
As for anger - I don't have anger over what has happened to me. I have anger when I witness people displaying behaviors that I see as abusive, or speaking in ways that seem to me they see women as inanimate objects and/or lesser than men.
When I speak or write about what has happened to me, I do so in part to be a voice for those who are unable to speak or write about what happened to them. There are many in that population. There are many who have blocked out their entire childhood, because they could not survive intact if they remembered what happened to them. I know this, because I have met women who actually say they cannot recall ANY THING about their life up to a certain point(and that point was well beyond the age where one ought to have some recollections).
I'm sorry that you see some of my actions as being destructive. While I understand that my heading cross-country in a van without even enough money for gas for the trip would not be someone else's cup of tea, it worked out fine for me. Other than that - there are more than many people who tell me they are jealous of the life I have. Go figure.
So....JoGill. Thank you for your example, although I was expecting people might share ones which they had a closer perspective on. Would you say that the "damages" that guy suffered are as bad as those of a woman who was raped(for that was Warbler's claim)?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:53am PT
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Patrick: . . . if any neanderthals think that woman have had the upper hand in patriarchal societies, think again.
We like TCM on cable, so we watch a lot of old movies, the wife and I. We’ve been talking about the subject of this thread, and we listed off a set of old movies with Barbara Stanwyck, Bette Davis, etc. of women who were presented as predators. We thought that their portrayals seemed more evil than those of male bad guys—but different. Stanwyck is perhaps my favorite female actress. It’s interesting that she was not a part of the studio system in those days. She appeared to be fiercely independent. And Davis, . . . whew, a great actress who showed us the depths of planning and scheming.
Second, my wife had a few things to say about being raped from personal experience. She was damaged, but also by many other experiences in life, not simply the rapes. She’s an optimistic person since I’ve met her. I was most drawn to her, I think, because she is one of those people who fell flat on her face and picked themselves up and went on. I love those people.
We also took the ugly monster out of the closet and talked about it: the wild diversity of sexual preferences. There are ALL kinds, and of course, there is nothing particularly wrong with any of them. I’ve been on the wrong side of the tracks at a time of my life and hung around and worked with people who were “in the life.” Prostitutes of both sexes will tell you stories that could make your stomach sick, but none of it appears to be truly sick. It’s just people’s preferences and truly a confidence game in the old sense of the word. Without fantasy, there isn’t much at all to sex. One more thing: one mate can tell another mate what his or her preferences are in a neutral setting, but when it comes time for a performance, everything is supposed to be spontaneous, otherwise it’s not much fun—fantasies lose their magic. This all implies that *it is possible* that someone he or she cares about actually likes the rape fantasy. Intimate social relations can be very confusing, especially when one has had a few of them..
I’ve been married three times. One thing I’ve learned for me is how difficult it is for me to communicate to a person of the opposite sex. For many reasons, I don’t have nearly the same problem with people of my gender and persuasion. Believe me, I’ve worked at it (in the classroom and personally).
Freud said that “biology is destiny,” and Gloria Steinham later agreed. Those declarations are checkmarks for biological evolutionary determinism. Today genes, brain chemistry, and social histories are explaining just about everything human—we’re told. But which is it? Do we really have choices that we (as individuals) can make? Are the sexes different, and if so, can they be made equal even though different? Is Pinker right that we are a war-like species—naturally, evolutionarily? Have certain behavioral traits been selected in men, in women, in the human species that have favored its reproduction over other species? Are men, women, the species destined / determined to be what they are or have been, with only glacial incremental change possible . . . socially, genetically, environmentally? Has human psychology been relatively rigid and unchanging historically, and if so, should we assume it will in all likelihood continue that way? Must I be what I see myself to be physically and socially, or can I really be different if I want to be?
It’s an interesting conversation on every level. It’s also a dangerous one.
Happygrrrl!
Best to you.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:57am PT
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I didn't realize Callie was a poster here"...
How long have you been here, and do you even climb, brah???...
Locker, that's a rhetorical question, isn't it?
Wilmot, "Callie" doesn't doesn't post much anymore, but her avatar on here is "Crimpergirl".
Btw, she is a famous climber, and birdwatcher.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Dec 12, 2017 - 08:19am PT
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I won't miss her,
she instigated nuthin but hate and negativity here.
Good riddance!
Her? I didn't know that.
I agree with your sentiment, Tad.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 12, 2017 - 08:20am PT
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Other than that - there are more than many people who tell me they are jealous of the life I have. Go figure.
I love what you do Hap. I wish I had half the balls you do. It’s the stuff wonderful stories are written about. I think of Cheryl Strayed novels. I love the off shore sailing for weeks at a time but it’s always with redundant systems and at least one other person .... you take off with Lucas and live the Dream.
Hope to see you this winter
Susan
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 12, 2017 - 08:37am PT
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MikeL,
With all respect, Gloria's surname is Steinem, not Steinham.
And ding dong the wicked witch is deactivated. Good.
SusanA, truth is relative. It was given out as the truth. If you think it's the truth, it's good enough for you. If someone else's truth differs, so be it. I don't know you, but I respect your right to your version. Let's leave it there and have yourself a Merry Christmas.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 12, 2017 - 11:07am PT
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I am having trouble getting a reply post through.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 12, 2017 - 11:43am PT
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Thanks for sharing Happie.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 12, 2017 - 11:56am PT
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 12, 2017 - 11:59am PT
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Warbler wrote:
Never said that
Debate what I say if you like, Happie, but don't put words in my mouth to create a strawman argument.
That's nothing but a tacit admission that you can't argue with the point I'm actually making
Here's the post you made, that I was recalling, when I wrote mine. You posted:
False accusations can be more destructive to a man's life than actual unwanted sexual aggressions are to a woman, depending on the circumstances, but while intersectional feminists claim to fight for equality across gender, racial, ethnic, and income divides, they drop the ball when it comes to falsely accused males.
So I guess, that you are probably feeling you meant "up to, but not including, the legal definition of rape," when you referred to "unwanted sexual aggressions."
Is that what you meant?
Far enough, if that's the case, and my apology for not realizing that you draw a distinction in that continuum. It didn't occur to me that in discussing "false accusations," a guy had to actually force himself into the oriface of a woman for it to be as bad as losing one's job, having one's name in the local police blotter, and such for it to count as "bad enough."
wow......
I think we have met, Warbler, back at the Pit a few years ago? You and your partner had a camper? Or am I making an incorrect connection?
and....
I don't either, he/her whoever?
Should have used this 'person',
my bad, apologies to the ladies.
This is an example of how are not even aware that we use the pronoun "she" as a way to demean and diminish the standing of another. I wondered, when I read that, if the poster knew the gender of CWilmot and, like others, would have been very shocked to learn that was a female voice.
Times, they are a changing. Just like less than five years ago it was deemed "okay" to write "that's so gay," or jokingly call someone a "faggot," we've reached the point in our cultural evolution that it's not acceptable to refer to a person using a female gender identifier to "jokingly" give them a status as, for some reason, lower than that of "man."
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 12, 2017 - 12:20pm PT
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"I wish I had half the balls you do"...
OMG Shoot me. I forgot we’re into political correctness here. ;)
My reference to “balls” as a testosterone infused body part that supposedly gives men the edge in all things living should bring a smile to Kevin’s face. I can see the “I told you so” smirk now!
So Hap I wish I had half the estrogen (or whatever gives you your get up and go...maybe it’s diet coke).
BTW. one of the best sailing doublehanders were a pair of women that won several Ca to Hawaii races and embroidered on their sailing jackets was “Dollz with Ballz”.
I guess it’s time to return to political correctness and leave gender out. I can do that for the sensitive new age types.
Susan
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Dec 12, 2017 - 02:00pm PT
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Locker
Is
Gonna
Get
The Boot!
I fall under some of those "catagories"!
Peace
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 12, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
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Hats off to Callie for this one!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 12, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
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Kevin, you wrote:
Women in general have all the power they need in today's society - if anything the overall balance is in the females' favor as I see it.
I suspect you are not considering the range of needs that humans have. For example, consider these:
Many ambitious men want to have an impact on the world, want to see their ideas and efforts take shape into making something of value, want to leave a legacy. Many women want the same thing. I suspect this is a universal thing (or at least very common) when more basic needs are met, which is the point of that pyramid (both figuratively and literally).
My experience has been that women who are in positions of power are judged very differently, and pay a very different price for exercising that power, than men do. Even if you discard all the abusive uses of power, and just focus on ways in which leaders are tough and use their power effectively in difficult situations- men will be considered "tough but fair" or "effective leader" while women are called "bitch" for doing the same thing. I think it is because we project our images of an ideal soft and cuddly and nurturing mom onto women in positions of power, and judge them for not complying with that image. All people should be given the freedom to express multiple facets of themselves, a soft and cuddly and loving person and also a hard-assed business person, and also a witty comedian and lucid thinker and whatever else. But we stick people in boxes, and need labels, because we have a hard time grasping a totality of what people are and can be.
It is fashionable now for guys to praise women as being "powerful" and "strong" when it is all about words, images in a Nike commercial or a self-promotional Vimeo of the latest cutie climber. Our society tolerates that now. But when it comes to real "man's world" power, controlling the flow of money and resources and making decisions that dictate the requirements or behavior in other people, the support of women's power instantly erodes in our society.
When women are in positions of real power affecting others, they have a choice: be liked by people and slowly fail as people take advantage of your need to be liked, or do what is required in the care and exercise of that power and make enemies. To certain extent this is true for guys too, but guys are given WAY more tolerance and leniency to exercise their power without making enemies. The difference is between earning a peer's respect or making a life-long enemy of the peer, just based on whether it is a guy or a girl exercising the power in the same way. In some professional circles, this is huge for managing long-term relationships and long-term climbing in careers that require continual accumulation of power and responsibilities while managing relationships of many stakeholders.
Notice we aren't even arguing about these nuances. As a society, we are far from getting there. We are still arguing about the right for women to not be sexually violated, and for such violations to be enforced in our society.
So no Kevin, I do not think that our society is tilted excessively in favor of women or that they have all the power they need.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Dec 12, 2017 - 02:57pm PT
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When I was a kid I called a Cuban neighbor a "SPIC"...
My Father and Mother caught wind of it and I got a small lecture reminding me that my Mother is half Spanish...(That lecture STUCK)...
Oops!!!...
Guess it would have been fine if your mother wasn't "half Spanish"?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Dec 12, 2017 - 03:50pm PT
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Locker's on fire! I'm impressed. Btw, way to go Callie!
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Dec 12, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
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Kevin, we get that you feel mistreated by women, and that a woman's place is in the home. You need to move on. It's almost 2018, and times change all things. If you don't change also, you become a dinosaur or a republican.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Dec 12, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
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Locker....said in jest....come on Brother, you know me. Fonda use to call when the "strawberries were ready! Not intended to criticize you.
Peace
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 12, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
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Women in general have all the power they need in today's society - if anything the overall balance is in the females' favor as I see it.
This really sounds a lot like some of the white/all lives matter republicans I know when they deny that racism (or sexism) still exists in the US.
But they would say:
“Blacks in general have all the power they need in today’s society- if anything the overall balance is in the blacks’ favor as I see it.”
#youblind
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 12, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
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Do you, Susan???...
Oh Locker, you went way over the top in reading between my lines.
Think satire, satire.
Of course those words (You listed) are deeply wrong and have nothing to do with political correctness. They stand alone, and many others, far outside “political correctness”. They were wrong then and are even more wrong today.
There are a full range of things that fall into “political correctness” that some of may say “Whaaa?”
Not for this thread, but a very interesting discussion can be had on the chilling effect “political correctness” has had on discussing very important issue. There’s increasing research about it.
Many things have been lumped into the “political correctness” spectrum. Some are profoundly important and have deep ramifications, others (many reasonable folks) would think are a little silly.
It’s all a personal perspective. However I would like to believe, that universally, those terms you listed would have totally agreement they have no place in civil discourse.
BTW. I don’t have a husband to cook for, but I do have a partner that does most of the cooking for us. ;). Ferretlegger (Michael) is a great cook (if you like meat and taters).
Susan
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:08pm PT
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What about all those nympho goo... and bea.. gals?
Well they're OK as long as they're underage and will take a knee to get whatever they need.
-ivTrump
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
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The Warbler, who whines that any "Ad Hominem" attack on him, on this thread, lacks validity, feels free to make "Ad Hominem" attacks on women here.
Why is it that feminists, with all their talk about equal treatment and "intersectional feminism" are typically the ones to hit below the belt if politely disagreed with when debating the details of their ideology?
But of course, The Warbler is special, because he writes long paragraphs & uses big words.
Ad hominem, is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. Wikipedia
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
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Now that I feel my house ain't gonna burn down I will get my butt out there. WUD be GUD to see you!
Peace
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 12, 2017 - 08:04pm PT
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That's the feminist cliché, Nutagain
I'm talking about personal power, not money or job status
Can you give a clear definition of “personal power”? Is this basically the same thing as self esteem, willingness to present one’s self in whatever way one see’s fit without concern for how the world reacts, or what?
The point I was making was not about income or status as you mistakenly boiled it down to Kevin. To me, that reduction shows a lack of familiarity with the issues. I’m talking about power in the sense of being in a position of authority that drives the actions of other people and how money is directed. I am talking about human interactions where people have skin in the game, have a lot at stake based on decisions and outcomes. I am talking about people who are accountable for the productivity of groups, the completion of projects or specific goals that others have paid money for, and where multiple people lose their jobs or perhaps their careers if they are not effective.
I have direct experience being close with multiple women with very different personalities (but smart and ambitious) and seeing the dynamics they deal with on a daily basis in these types of situations. It is not theoretical arguments. If the scenarios sound cliche, perhaps it is because they are all too common because the issues I brought up are typical in those environments.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 12, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
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You know, there's two ol' maids layin' in the bed,
One picked herself up an' the other one, she said:
"Get your rocks off!
Get your rocks off! (Get 'em off!)
Get your rocks off! (Get 'em off!)
Get your rocks off-a me! (Get 'em off!)"
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
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Words and thoughts play well in the egocentric spaces of our own minds and often engender arrogance and narrowness.
Discussions like this, with open and broad scrutiny of our ideas will certainly cause reflection and even shift the attitudes of reasonable people, in time- even if their post may not reflect that.
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Tom Patterson
Trad climber
Seattle
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Dec 12, 2017 - 09:02pm PT
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So...wasn't this supposed to be a thread about Callie deserving noteriety?
Congratulations for the deserved noteriety, Callie!
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Krease
Gym climber
the inferno
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Dec 12, 2017 - 09:20pm PT
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Hey the Warbler, who gives a shyt what FA's you were on? This thread isn't about you. So many climbers are such fuking egomaniacs that EVERYTHING has to be about them. I don't know you Callie, but congrats.
BTW, misogynists just got their asses handed to them in Alabama, lol.
Fuk you, Dotard Drumpf.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
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"Well, the boss is not always right, but he's always the boss"
Mark Rylance as Rudolph Abel
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 12, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
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Hey Krease! I like your thoughts!
You are a breath of fresh air, for that Warbler spewer on this thread, to blow off.
Hey the Warbler, who gives a shyt what FA's you were on? This thread isn't about you. So many climbers are such fuking egomaniacs that EVERYTHING has to be about them. I don't know you Callie, but congrats.
BTW, misogynists just got their asses handed to them in Alabama, lol.
Fuk you, Dotard Drumpf
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unlocked gait
Gym climber
the range
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Dec 13, 2017 - 06:03am PT
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no the wilmot character is definitely a male.
i first crossed his path when his rack got lifted years ago,
and he pitched a 'woe-is-me' thread here at the climber's mall.
i fell for it and sent him two of my cams in the mail.
because i usually extend help to those whom are down and out.
surprise be it to me when years later he starts shouting
a political bent of cold shoulder to refugees and immigrants.
to people whom are STARVING TO DEATH and homeless and war-stricken.
f*#k him. good riddance. i've no tolerance when some wee-fella's or gal's fear
and greed brings tangible suffering to good humans.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 13, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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There's always a risk of being lost in polarities...
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 13, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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You're continuing to put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head to make a strawman argument, however less extreme
Actually...... when I made the first post you objected to I specifically asked if JoGill felt the example he gave fit into the parameters of your "can be...damaging" category. I could understand your point were it about my use of the word "rape" when you didn't specifically use that word, but that's not your argument.
Look - I don't disagree that false accusations can be damaging to a person. I actually wrote a lengthy post about that, and suggested it is a separate discussion to be had. Why not create a thread about that topic?
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 13, 2017 - 12:22pm PT
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Don't bother replying to my post Warbler. I am guessing your blindness is incurable. Have a good day.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 13, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
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Mouse,
Thanks for the correction on my spelling. My bad.
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 13, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
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An ad hominem attack by definition lacks validity in the context of the discussion
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 13, 2017 - 06:45pm PT
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Bottom line, as I see it, feminism is about equal rights and equal treatment for women. Fine, that's great. I fully support that
How is fighting sexual harassment part of that, any more than trying to curtail armed robbery or assault would be?
Fighting sexual harassment is about equal rights and equal treatment. I don’t understand how you can’t see that.
Our society is still structurally quite patriarchal, and the culture continues to instill toxic masculinity. Most hierarchical organizations are still top-heavy with men who have a desire to dominate and a sense of entitlement.
The vast majority of harassers and abusers are male and a vast majority of the victims are female. Not only have the harrassers used the power differential to try to coerce sex, but the male dominated society and it’s organizations have, as a whole, made it extremely difficult for these women who are not treated as fellow professionals, but instead as objects, to speak out without losing all they’ve worked for.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 13, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
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Warbler - We totally get that you don't get it. It's okay.......
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Dec 13, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
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The Warbler claims he wants a rational debate.
the reason that is tough is because, as of late, very near to every second statement that he types is either a half truth or exaggeration, it is emotional argumentation, it is an unverifiable statement stated as fact or it is an outright demonstrateable fabrication.
because for me this is a crucially important debate for our society to be having and as the above statement could easily be dismissed as emotional argumentation i'm going to take the time to go through the above categories, based only on his postings to this most recent thread. each category is in chronological order of posting. at the end of the day, this isn't about The Warble personally. i respect him putting forth his opinions here. if his opinions were only his own, and they were not shared by so many, i would not take the time to go through the following. in that regard TW, thanks for being honest on this board.
as i am not infallible, if TW is interested in debate and willing to provide documentation for his claims, i'm happy to debate facts based on more than his personal experience of being falsely accused [which i accept would have certainly been shItty].
as such i've numbered the following points for easy reference so that if TW is interested in a debate, in order to keep things efficient, he can just write the number and move onto his documented counterpoints, .
unverifiable claims
3. More men are falsely accused and punished than women who make false accusations are punished
i looked for documentation and was unable to find any. if i missed it please point me towards the correct peer reviewed study.
7. Women in general have all the power they need in today's society
if one in six women will be raped and only 0.6% of those rapes result in prison time, i'd argue that at least on that front they don't have all the power they need. this is only one example, i'd be happy to provide others if desired.
8. Overall, I think feminism has more that achieved its goals, and that societally we have close to a balance of power.
because this is a personal statement regarding TW's beliefs it is by definition true. As no real evidence has been shown, it is as all pure beliefs are: incontestable.
15. Why is it that feminists, with all their talk about equal treatment and "intersectional feminism" are typically the ones to hit below the belt if politely disagreed with when debating the details of their ideology?
i'd say both sides, at least as i've seen on this thread, [and at least if we include exaggeration, half truths and outright fabrications as "hitting below the belt"] have contributed to the gutter nature of this conversation.
17. Just an indication [Feminists] don't understand what [feminism] means.
i'm pretty sure that most feminists would give you something very near to the merriam webster definition for feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. if i'm mistaken please show me documentation of the prevalence of your assertion, as common sense says that someone who defines themselves as something, knows what the definition of the identifying word is.
22. Some won't even admit to significant biological differences.
name three, even fringe, academic feminists that do not believe there are any significant average biological differences.
emotional argumentation
1. Too many feminists [...] think only males can be sexists
the use of the words "too many" is a tactic that is used, so that one can make something sound significant without being pinned down as to even a near to exact number. one feminist thinking "only males can be sexist" could in The Warbler worldview be "too many". but without quantification "too many" is just vague emotional argumentation. the fact is there are many feminists that think females can be sexists at the same time that there are a few that think that "sexism" by definition must be institutionalized and from their view while men can be discriminated against, women can not be sexist as their discrimination towards men has never been institutionalized.
5. It seems lately in American culture that a woman can make a claim, without evidence, and the man is guilty until proven innocent.
"it seems" is used as a weasel word. one exemplary fact that has been mentioned before is that, at least with regards to rape, only 0.6% of cases result in incarceration time. while there have been a few [numbered in likely the hundreds] widely reported cases in the u.s. recently [that often due to the sheer number of complainants have had repercussions even though they have not gone through formal court proceedings] that might lead one to conclude that it is de facto wide scale truth that men are "guilty until proven innocent", it is myopic at best when we have the stats that we do. and if we are basing our views on "it seems" one could just as easily argue that the u.s. has a president who has had 18 women go on record to state their claims and to date there have been been no repercussions to give evidence to the opposite conjecture.
12. There are important and timely debatable issues here, try to be civil and rise to the occasion
agreed with the first half. if as i am in the process of showing even half of TW's statements were more than emotional argumentation, unverifiable claims, exaggerations or outright fabrications, then this might hold some weight.
13. If you can't articulate why you object to his opinions, or mine, maybe you should reassess what prompts the vitriol before resorting to absurd straw man arguments, ad hominem attacks and cyber psycho analysis.
many people have rationally responded to your opinions over the last few months. as but one example i gave you an opportunity to explain why you thought wilmot's initial thoughts were anything other than fabrications. i also asked you and those who agree with you some thought styled experiment questions to help me understand where you folks are coming from. you choose to mostly engage with and complain about emotional argumentation when, based on what i've read, that is your also your own bread and butter on this forum.
16. One of the most common examples of sexism in today's society is feminism, when it goes too far, which is quite often.
"quite": another emotional weasel word that implies much but quantifies nothing. please cite relevant peer reviewed stats if you have them.
19. Hiding questionable agendas behind feel good sounding words is the oldest trick in the book.
the implication, given the context, is that the word "feminism" is a feel good sounding word hiding a questionable agenda. as usual no supporting evidence is given
exaggerations and half truths
2. Maybe, but a lot more men answer for their actions than do women who lie about being harassed, groped, or worse, because women are basically never punished for that.
this is sort of true, but irrelevant when put into full context. that's because as has been documented up thread, with regards to rape a multitude of studies have shown that between 2-10% of rape claims are based on false allegations while 65-84% go unreported. so even if we take the larger number and 35% of claims are reported and every single one resulted in punishment for the males [something we know to be false as only 0.6% of rape cases result in incarceration time] and every single female who made a false claim got off scott free, then there would still be six times more females who went without justice then there were males who went without justice [this is specifically with regards to rape, but without further documentation there is no reason to believe that the lesser charges - sexual assault and harrassment - are on order of magnitudes any different]. so to cherry pick stats and say that a lot more men answer for their actions [which in and of itself is a dubious claim that i would challenge TW to show any verifiable documentation of] is, if true, only because at least 90 and likely more like 95 or higher per cent of cases are not based on false allegations and 98% of rapists are male, which in combination means more men, than women, are going to have to "answer for their actions". simply put there are many, many more men, than women, who need to "answer for their actions" in these regards.
4. but while intersectional feminists claim to fight for equality across gender, racial, ethnic, and income divides, they drop the ball when it comes to falsely accused males.
actually not whole scale true. there are many feminists who are aware and fight to push back against the reactionary [to the historical concept that women were by definition unreliable] idea that women always tell the truth. here is an article by leslie cannold an outspoken and prominent australian feminist. she is by no means the only one, nor particularly rare. to claim wholesale that feminists [intersectional or not] are uninterested in falsely accused males is at minimum an exaggeration.
6. There are so many different degrees of "sexual assault", "sexual harassment" and "sexual violence". Those mean different things to different people.
this is a half truth, because the implication is that there are no concrete definitions for these words. legally all of these words have very specific definitions. there are many people who think the world is flat. this doesn't change the fact that our very existence at this point in history is based on the understanding that the world is not flat ie. just because words mean many different things to people doesn't mean that they don't have agreed to structural [read legal] definitions.
outright fabrications
9. Sex and the withholding of it can be, and often is, a tool for gaining power.
someone saying no to a choice regarding their own body does not "gain them power". end stop.
10. What I can't deal with is radical feminists claiming women are equal across the board
based on his continuous writings on this matter, one of the most important concepts that i understand TW to be frustrated with is the idea that females are on average person for person in actuality the physical strength equivalents to males, and the only reason this isn't currently the case is due to structural sexism. despite his assertions, my life experience and my googling, i have never heard a feminist [radical or otherwise] who believes this. until he can point me in the correct direction, i have no choice but to assume this is similar to his postings of youtube videos showing random and unidentified by name, emotionally distraught females who are then termed "feminists" despite our not knowing anything about their world views, their contribution to peer reviewed dialogue, or basically anything other than that they were perceived to be females and ere wsaying things that the compiler disagreed with and so were then termed "feminists".
11. You're implying I feel entitled to anything I want from a woman, which is absolute bullsh#t
no you're words explicitly stated that. when you say "Sex and the withholding of it can be, and often is, a tool for gaining power" you document a failure to understand that someone saying no, for any reason, does not gain them any power. it is them making a choice about their own bodies. end stop.
14. So can one of you who was so offended by wilmot's posts point out what she said that you think warranted deactivation?
not a single person in this thread, previous to the above assertion said that they thought wilmot should have been deactivated. at least one person said they weren't sad that wilmot was gone. but this is different than saying they should be deactivated.
18. And the reason for that is that feminists keep changing their minds about what feminism is.
no feminism has, for as long as the word has existed, been defined as some near variation of "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes". the practice of feminism has focused on different fights at different times, but that doesn't mean that there has been collective wide spread disagreement that in its most simplest conception the "organizational equality of the sexes" is the definition for feminism.
20. Here's my definition of modern feminism: A movement that expresses women's ongoing dissatisfaction with some aspect of the culture they live in
words have collectively agreed to meanings. there is no need to fabricate your own meaning and then argue that those who define themselves as those words are problematic. you don't get to define a collectively agreed upon word. you can suggest an alternative, sure. but to claim that the collectively held definition doesn't exist is a fabrication.
21. After decades of clamoring for equal treatment and insisting on being equal to men, now feminists are spotlighting and vilifying sexual advances and suggestions both physically and verbally that men have made towards women as being THE feminist issue in our society that must be dealt with.
no. women are not "spotlighting and vilifying sexual advances and suggestions both physically and verbally that men have made towards women". unless you view a fat fifty year old female boss showing up naked to your "lunch meeting" as a sexual advance. i can give you tens if not hundreds of examples of sexual harassment claims that have been in the news that have nothing to do with "sexual advances". if you are serious please name ten that have been in the news, that you believe should be categorized as a "sexual advance" rather than sexual harassment, sexual assault, or rape.
22. most sexual harrasment complaints from women involve acts that would make most men's day
no, the use of "most" is an outright fabrication. equivalent sexual harassment would involve a female boss grabbing a male by the balls or a fifty year old fat producer who showed up naked to a twenty five year old male's audition. i can't say i know of basically any males whose days "would be made" by acts such as these.
23. I fully support equal rights and equal treatment of the sexes.
you say you do. but the rest of your words, as demonstrated above and below, prove otherwise.
24. Sexual harrasment is not a feminist issue by the definition of feminism.
actually it is. the dictionary definition of feminism is [once again]: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. as has been shown throughout this thread, sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape happen in massively disproportionate numbers to females and with a massively disproportionate lack of resulting "justice" as compared to other crimes. if this doesn't make them an issue of equality and therefore "feminism" then i don't know what one could possibly logically put under that banner.
25. Sexual harassment is felt by females far more often than men. Males are nearly completely unfazed by the types of comments and advances from women that constitute harassment in the female mind.
you don't understand what sexual harassment is [ie. it is not just an unrequited sexual advance as you regularly seem to imply], nor that it is experienced, not just felt, by females in far disproportionate numbers as relative to males.
if you are so inclined, i look forward to a footnoted debate, that moves beyond the emotional argumentation, that you so frequently complain about. i don't necessarily always have immediate time to reply, but don't take that to mean that i won't.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 13, 2017 - 09:00pm PT
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I'm voting for nahooo for the win on this hopelessly stolen & hijacked by the Warbler thread, that was supposed to offer congratulations to Callie.
Soooo -----the Warbler, can you just stop posting here now?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
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Sexual harrasment is not a feminist issue by the definition of feminism. Think about it.
I know that's a lot to ask
Hard to think straight when that knee's jerkin'
Sexual harassment is a human rights issue, in my opinion, not a feminist issue.
Feminists are trying to get support for their dwindling numbers and an agenda that has largely been successful, and therefore less and less important.
Bottom line, as I see it, feminism is about equal rights and equal treatment for women. Fine, that's great. I fully support that
How is fighting sexual harassment part of that, any more than trying to curtail armed robbery or assault would be?
Warbler wins the "Mansplaining Cup" for 2017.
What else are you going to tell us that women think and believe?
I prefer to hear them, myself.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 13, 2017 - 09:26pm PT
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Thank you nah000.
I was considering which pieces to follow up on, and then thought about the Monty Python sketch of a dude looking for the argument room, and I gave up and went back to work :)
But you nailed it.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 14, 2017 - 09:30am PT
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The fact nobody here is backing me up don't mean I'm not right
Yes it does.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Dec 14, 2017 - 09:35am PT
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I've been working and climbing with women for decades, and have had exactly zero issues with "feminism." I don't understand why warbler goes on and on about it in every thread that mentions a female.
Congrats to crimps on her work.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
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BTW, Callie has read the comments here, and says hi to her friends. She no longer has a ST account. She finds the comments both heartening and bizarre (although not surprising), including the ones from the troll who follows her from site to site, trying to disparage her work.
As someone mentioned WAY upstream, she has gone through training to become an elected official, which she plans to do. She is just waiting for the right opportunity to come up.
I have volunteered to help her campaign, I hope the climbers of ST will join me in supporting her when the time comes.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 14, 2017 - 12:27pm PT
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What a hoot. Watching a bunch of aging white men debate the finer points of feminism!
;>)
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Dec 14, 2017 - 12:40pm PT
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"...training to become an elected official.". Would love to see the syllabus for that course...I assume it must involve pandering, dissembling, soliciting and bloviating...do you get a certificate?
But seriously, folks, if more pols were like C it's likely the swamp would already be drained.
+1 for Professor Gill's comment above.
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L
climber
Just bearly here
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Dec 14, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
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BTW, Callie has read the comments here, and says hi to her friends. She no longer has a ST account. She finds the comments both heartening and bizarre (although not surprising)...
LOL!!!!
Hey Callie,
Congratulations on some well-deserved accolades! This pervasive hydra-headed issue needs to be spotlighted and eradicated, and good on ya for being in the vanguard of the challenge.
I'm also genuinely proud of you for stepping into that gaping cesspool of corruption that we lovingly refer to as American politics. You are well-suited (still have that HAZMAT suit?) and sorely needed.
Best wishes for your continued success, Couz.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 14, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
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I have volunteered to help her campaign, I hope the climbers of ST will join me in supporting her when the time comes
Republican or Democrat?
;>)
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L
climber
Just bearly here
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Dec 14, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
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whos training program?
I'm sure she's enrolled at Trump University....
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Dec 14, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
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I would love to see a debate twixt The Callie and The Don
Drumpf would not have a chance in a debate with Callie.
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L
climber
Just bearly here
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Dec 14, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
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^ ^ ^ I LOVE YOU, L!
Why thank you, eKat! I love you too, Sista!
Even avowed feministas can have a sense of humor
What are you talking about, Kevin? I’m not an avowed feminist. In fact, I heartily detest being labeled with ists and isms by anyone, even you. I’m just a climber, like most of us here.
I would love to see a debate twixt The Callie and The Don
Do you recall that scene from Monty Python and The Holy Grail? The one where the Black Knight kept trying to fight John Cleese, even after both his legs and both his arms were hacked off, and blood was spurting from every stump?
Just to give you a hint: Callie would not be the Black Knight.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 14, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 14, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
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both his legs and both his arms were hacked off, and blood was spurting from every stump?
‘‘tis nothing but a flesh wound”
Best scene EVER!
Susan
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2017 - 09:12am PT
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Feminism is trying to become more inclusive as the original need for it ceases to exist, and that's ok
Ceases to exist? When women make 75% of what a man makes, for doing the same work? When the majority of women endure harassment during their work lives? When women have to be twice as good as a man, to have any hope at competing for a promotion or for tenure?
Better crawl out from under your rock....
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2017 - 09:16am PT
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So now feminism is still fundamentally about equal rights for men and women, but only about womens rights in sexual harassment cases.
So, continuing as the jerk you are, you refuse to post any links that support your assertion. Please post your links that show that feminists don't care about men's rights, particularly when they are the victims.
But the fact that 90%+ of such cases involve women as victims seems to mean to you that men and women deserve equal attention.
Like the guy who supports laws against sleeping under bridges, pointing out that it applies both to poor people and rich people.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2017 - 09:29am PT
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Representative Blake Farenthold, Republican of Texas, is under an Ethics Committee investigation regarding accusations that he had sexually harassed a former employee and “retaliated against her for complaining of discriminatory conduct.”
On Thursday, Mr. Farenthold rejected the idea of resigning and said that the news media had treated him unfairly. His behavior was the subject of an $84,000 settlement in taxpayer funds to settle a sexual harassment claim against him.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Dec 16, 2017 - 03:48pm PT
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I think Callie is a very smart individual thinker. Good to you Callie for the recognition.
Warbler and Ken M. take a time out. The OP meant this to be a tribute for Callie. The two of you have twisted it. You both should be ashamed of yourselves.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Dec 16, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
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He started it!
Ahh, but you fell into his game; you are better than that.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Dec 16, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
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Maybe this should be moved to a new thread.
edit: Kevin, when I was in college I made love with a wonderful girl. She was beaten to death a few months later by a rapist. I would give anything to go back and protect her.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Dec 16, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
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Hey John, hope yer good and the holidays are enjoyable for you. I agree with you, this was meant as a compliment to Callie, who I know as a great person. This thread degraded to boys playing boy games...I dropped a while back as respect to Callie and not to contribute to pettiness. This junk should be on a seperate thread and if you have something complimentry to say, join in.
Peace
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 16, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
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fartknockers
Anybody wishing to congratulate Cal-Crimpie should do so personally, not on the StuporTaco frooom!
Just a guess, but I'd venture that it would be more meaningful to her.
Aside:
johntp: My elementary through high school buddy was beaten to death, in a jail cell no-less. Do I wish I coulda been there? You bet.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
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Warbler and Ken M. take a time out. The OP meant this to be a tribute for Callie. The two of you have twisted it. You both should be ashamed of yourselves.
You do know that *I* am the original poster, right?
I think in response to what are clearly digs against her, I am entitled to respond to the drivel. The intent of Warbler was to diminish Callie in her professional calling, for which he has no credentials.
I suppose next he'll say that Ed H doesn't know anything about nuclear reactions.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2017 - 08:23pm PT
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The intent of Warbler was to diminish Callie in her professional calling
Nope.
Kevin is just plain giving you his own personal life experiences and his opinions on this type of subject matter.
Some of you are just overreacting to it.
Life is variegatedness in all its qualities.
You should not fear the Warbler ......
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 16, 2017 - 09:25pm PT
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The pope said: "You shouldn't fall into the 'sins of communication:' disinformation, or giving just one side, calumny that is sensationalized, or defamation, looking for things that are old news and have been dealt with and bringing them to light today."
He called those actions a "grave sin that hurts the heart of the journalist and hurts others."
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 16, 2017 - 09:42pm PT
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B. Rabbit: [rapping] ... Don't ever try to judge me dude / You don't know what the f*#k I've been through / But I know something about you / You went to Cranbrook - that's a private school / What's the matter, dog? / You're embarrassed? / This guy's a gangster? / His real name is Clarence / Now Clarence lives at home wit both parents / And Clarence parents have a real good marriage...
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Dec 17, 2017 - 01:32am PT
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So I need to be raped to understand rape Well, or you could be the rapist.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
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None of those sites support your claim
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
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This is the subject matter of Callie's book, this thread is about her book. A discussion about the subject matter seems appropriate, relevant and timely. I don't see that starting another thread is necessary
And Ken, your pomposity is over the top. My lack of credentials doesn't diminish my intelligence or my life's experiences, so back off on the personal insults, doc.
You may also have opinions, and I'm sure you do, about the right way to insert tampons. That doesn't make you an expert on the subject, and whatever opinion you might have almost certainly is better retained, as you listen to those who actually are experts and have to live with the consequences, which you do not.
There is a hierarchy of expertise, and you are WAY down the list.
You are basically making the argument that there is no such thing as professional expertise, whether it be anything scientific, medical, or otherwise. Obviously, personal experience paints our opinions, but do you think that you should be lecturing Bird or Largo on how to climb, based on your "expertise", or should you listen?
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Dec 17, 2017 - 04:15pm PT
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Hey Kevin, I appreciate, "with all due respect". The pettiness I refer to is tit for tat, micro defining, taking a thread recognizing someone for their work...good or bad....personal opinion and turning it into something totally different. I respect everyones opinions and we ALL should be entitled to that, but this has gone in a different direction. I've known you a long time and respect your opinion and ideals, not criticizing you for what you believe or have experienced, just saying hey to John and saying a few words.
I also have known Callie for a long time, she is very intelligent and like all of us has her opinion and views and I respect her to a high degree.
Take care man.
Peace
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Dec 17, 2017 - 11:15pm PT
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Kingtut, your view is the epitome of identity politics. You are arguing that white males need to suffer more so there can be EQUALITY? This doesn't treat people as individuals, only as members of groups. An innocent man sent to prison is an injustice. A guilty man let free is an injustice. The path to justice is to judge each case objectively by the weight of the evidence; not to hand out more guilty verdicts to men until "the inequality is shared by all".
Try not to view this as a men vs women issue. No man wants his wife/mother/daughter/friend to be raped or sexually harassed. No woman wants her husband/father/son/friend to be sent to prison or fired from his job over false allegations. These injustices affect us all.
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Dec 18, 2017 - 05:45am PT
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Could you give an example or two of some changes you'd like to see made to our legal or social institutions? Because from your last couple posts it sounds like you're advocating that we just make it easier to charge and convict men for sex crimes so that men will "suffer equally" to women. And if this is in fact your position, then what specific changes need to be made to the legal process to ensure that juries hand out more "guilty" verdicts?
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 18, 2017 - 10:16am PT
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Not guilty does not equal innocence.
In the case of rape, or any other felony it does not automatically mean it was a false allegation.
It means the prosecution didn’t prove their case. In any “ not guilty” verdict, the accusations may have false or it did happen but couldn’t be proved beyond a reasonable doubt or preponderance of the evidence.
Depending on how the scales of justice tip, there will be aggrieved parties, and it can happen to either side. Not guilty is not a finding of innocence, and once that bell of accusation is rung, it cannot be unrung unless there is an honest recantment, and still some will believe what they want.
It’s pretty much the price we pay for living in a society where we have a lot more liberties than so many places in the world.
Susan
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 18, 2017 - 11:14am PT
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I'm confused.
Is this thread supposed to be limited to Callie and her deserved fame or is it open to other related subjects: rape, feminism, the Weinstein effect, the #metoo phenom, sexual harassment (definitions, etc), etc.
I mean I'm kinda scared to post - what's expected is rather unclear - I don't want to break the rules.
...
Warbler, I have only read a percentage of your posts and haven't been paying close attn to the thread. But pretty much everything I've read of yours seems spot on or close enough.
Presently it's crazy out there!
Recall: (1) Half the population have IQs less than 100, many post on forums, and many don't have above average ability to nuance subject matter esp relating to religion, politics, sex; (2) as Yuval Harari pointed out: One of the most powerful forces in history is human stupidity. I know you know these things, I'm just mentioning them as memoranda.
the warlock hunt...
https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/12/06/the-warlock-hunt
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/meet-the-women-worried-about-metoo/20639#.WjgPgVNrw2x
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/ex-today-staffer-talks-alleged-affair-with-matt-lauer-and-why-she-didnt-speak-out-for-17-years/ar-BBGYGQ7?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=wispr
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 18, 2017 - 11:43am PT
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What Happened to Men and Women? - Camille Paglia & Jordan B Peterson
Posted as a part of the broader discussion:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 18, 2017 - 11:47am PT
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On a college campus, should an accusation of sexual assault be dealt with by the administrators, faculty and staff, or should it be referred to local law enforcement?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
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John, in my opinion, ANY criminal act should be dealt with by law enforcement. The campus rarely has the resources or experience to deal with full criminal investigations, nor does it have the power of subpoena, search warrants.
I see a place for a separate process revolving around institutional compliance, with potential institutional penalties, but not in adjudicating a criminal act. Exam cheating, for example.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 18, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
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Remember when Title IX was about sports? Primarily women’s sports and equal access.
It really evolved into so much more. Very complex. I’m not in academia anymore so I really don’t have a solid opinion about for the better or not. I just know as a female athlete in college I worked diligently to bring some equity into women’s athletics.
Susan
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 18, 2017 - 12:29pm PT
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Yes, Title IX did a great job for women's sports, particularly gymnastics.
And just look at American Ninja!
I agree with you, Ken.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 18, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
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And just look at American Ninja!
Oh my fav summer show.
But on a more serious note when they got into the “dear colleague” guidance on developing a process that curbed due process, (IMO), I felt it started to wander rather far from its original intent.
Susan
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Dec 18, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
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And. . . by the way. . . I'm stealin' that!
Too late. I've filed for a patent.
Well, not really, but Wernerisms are just fun.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 09:50am PT
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One in 1,000 people being sexually assaulted WOULD BE "happening all around us!
Go right ahead and post all the diminishing "stats" you like, but I can tell you from FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE that sexual assault AND rape DO happen. OFTEN. It is NOT some rare occurrence, a misunderstanding of a "consensual relationship."
For F*#KS sake already.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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For the last reported year, 2013, the prevalence rate for all sexual assaults including rape was 0.1% (prevalence represents the number of victims, rather than the number of assaults since some are victimized more than once during the reporting period). The survey included males and females aged 12+.[5] Since rapes are a subset of all sexual assaults, the prevalence of rape is lower than the combined statistic.[6] Of those assaults, the Bureau of Justice Statistics stated that 34.8% were reported to the police, up from 29.3% in 2004.[7]
In the citation posted by YOU, the first sentence in the paragraph quoted above states:
A 2013 study found that rape may be grossly underreported in the United States
It also states, elsewhere:
A 2013 study found that rape is grossly underreported in the United States.[2] Furthermore, a 2014 study determined that police departments eliminate or undercount rapes from official records in part to "create the illusion of success in fighting violent crime".[3]
And:
Rape prevalence among women in the U.S. (the percentage of women who experienced rape at least once in their lifetime so far) is in the range of 15–20%
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 12:10pm PT
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Has there been a "rapid spread" of rape lately?
No. It has been a longstanding problem. As more realistic definitions have been used, as attitudes have changed, as support for victims increased, and prevention programs spread, there is an effect on the rate, which is thankfully probably decreasing.
HOWEVER, it is exactly these things which you seem to resist and attack. YOU are the problem.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 19, 2017 - 12:11pm PT
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HFCS, don't be shy. Chime in. More POV are good.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 01:19pm PT
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jgill, thanks for the invite! ;)
kingtut and ken, if you wouldn't mind, I'm wondering if you guys could post up warbler's most offending post, or one of them, for context. So I can get a better sense of it. As I just don't get the hostility you're giving him.
I've read maybe, I don't know, I'm guessing, 10-20 of Warbler's posts over a week or two's time, admittedly some quickly; and I've perceived nothing sexist or ignorant or off color. Rather just the opposite: considerate, evidence-based, thoughtful, fact-seeking, discerning.
What say you?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
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Rest assured, Warbler, I'll do the research as needed and read it in context.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with your level of formal education. Besides - how would they know if you were a PhD or a GED? Or neither, apparently.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
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I did. But that you have extrapolated to the end you posted isn't rational. You tend to hang a person on a word or two they post, out of an entire sentence, paragraph, series of paragraphs, yet here you seem to have pendji'd way over past the mark. How would they know your education level? I know I certainly didn't.
As I said, I don't think that's what's got them riled.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:54pm PT
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uhhhh.....On the first page of this thread, you hijacked it with a strawman argument, if I understand the definition of strawman argument properly.
Go figure.......
edit: I don't get what you're trying to say
I meant that you posted they couldn't handle a non-highschool graduate debating them. That you would read tut's post and that was what you came away with. It was not a rational analysis of/response to the post you referred to.
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scaredycat
Trad climber
Berkeley,CA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
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OMG, I find this really really creepy, y'all.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
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Well, it must have been an inside joke in a group that included just yourself then, since the "non-hs" thing would have had to have been common knowledge to actually work in that kind of bit. But whatever.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
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As you will most likely recall:
The itsy bitsy spider crawled up the water spout
What followed?
Along came Jones and took out the trash?
Close, but no
Young white punks on dope, mama & dada live in Hollywood?
Sorry, back to the stacks
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JLyons
Sport climber
Cali
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
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“I’m a doctor!”
“Here’s a naked selfie of me in the mirror!”
LOL
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
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To which the doctor responded?
"will this thread and it's quaint display of insight and humility, be the one that pushes the ST over 2.5M?"
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 09:58pm PT
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Too many feminists, and even normal people, ; ), think only males can be sexists
In fact, the reality that so few sexual violence perpetrators ever wind up answering for their actions
Maybe, but a lot more men answer for their actions than do women who lie about being harassed, groped, or worse, because women are basically never punished for that. More men are falsely accused and punished than women who make false accusations are punished, even when the intent of their lies is to extort, or to seek revenge for some unrelated event.
False accusations can be more destructive to a man's life than actual unwanted sexual aggressions are to a woman, depending on the circumstances, but while intersectional feminists claim to fight for equality across gender, racial, ethnic, and income divides, they drop the ball when it comes to falsely accused males.
There is rarely equal treatment of men and women where this is concerned. It seems lately in American culture that a woman can make a claim, without evidence, and the man is guilty until proven innocent.
This is in the context of a career professional who does research in the area, a member of our community, being recognized for her efforts.
I find it offensive, considering the half-truths and outright lies contained within, with no citations as to "facts" (because there are none)
Basically an attack on Callie's intellect. He's telling us what feminists think, when he has no clue. He claims that feminists are totally biased, when he seems to know none. He then speaks for all of western culture, which he certainly does not represent. That's just his first post.
HFCS, there is one for you. I don't have the time to waste nor the inclination to wade through the morass of his posts. You cite his questions, however, if you look carefully, they are only rhetorical questions, which are actually disguised digs. He presents no links, no evidence, no quotes. He is entitled to his opinion, but so am I.
He has made it clear that he has seen none of this harassment in his life. In other words, he has no experience. As Tut suggested, I've done many, many rape exams, and provided professional services to many, many survivors. I have my opinions, too, but they are based upon experience in the field, not speculation or conclusions from reading PEOPLE magazine.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2017 - 06:28am PT
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Who IS kingtut?
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unlocked gait
Gym climber
the range
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Dec 20, 2017 - 08:02am PT
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i'm sorry warberl.
you caught a nasty case of systemic ignorance
in some past life.
work it out, man.
bounce your hateful shite off us, more developed spirits.
we've capacity and endurance.
though i could use a recharge of patience.
warner? you know any prayers or chants
that channel patience?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 11:35am PT
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WaPost:
An ‘E! News’ anchor found out she earns half what her male co-host makes. So she quit.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 20, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
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Only reminding feminists that false accusations have serious and damaging effects also.
I really don’t know where you get this need for mansplaining or that generic women or feminists need “reminded” of this. Perhaps you’re just being chivalrous and looking out for our ignorance.
As I said on another thread, as the mother of a 25 year old handsome and outgoing young man in a cut throat business world I worry about false accusations. I also find unwanted sexual abuse, harassment, etc etc to be demeaning, deragortory and inexcusable this day in age. The two issues are not mutually exclusive in being able to have mindful thoughts and dialogue.
Is this where I act all humble and do a holly, gee, Kevin, I so appreciate your reminder. My addled female brain just can’t process complex social issues. You da Man.
Susan
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 20, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
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where a feminist organization
Only reminding feminists that false accusations have serious and damaging effects also.
Words Matter.
Now it’s gone from “ feminists” to “feminist organization”.
Clever.
Susan
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 20, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
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Same question with "feminist"
Try reading about Susan Estrich who defended Robert ailes
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/11/style/susan-estrich-feminist-roger-ailes-fox-news.html?referer=https://www.google.com/
What is more telling is your attempt at sleight of hand by changing the subject from my original charge of
**who the f*#k do you think you are to remind anyone of anything**
to challenging me to come up with examples to support your contentions.
I’m not a big fan of mansplaining, especially about how a woman should feel about something.
Do you need a footstool to get off that high horse of yours?
Susan
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 20, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
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That doesn't really count . (Because she’s a lawyer who has a huge feminist background)
Oh, geez, Kevin, you’re right!!! It doesn’t count. Thanks for “reminding” me. Duh. If it doesn’t fit into your POV well then it’s just not real. What a wonderful way to drift through life.
You bring a smile to my face you’re so desperate to be right.
Susan.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 03:47pm PT
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I understand the argument Kevin- it's the same argument related to affirmative action and reverse discrimination in a sense.
Here's a simple calculus:
1. Are the inequities, abuses and lack of legal protection quantifiable with data?
2. Does that data prove that the inequities are institutional and widespread?
Harassment and abuse towards woman is definitely institutional in segments of our society which is not the case with men.
To Kevin's point- on an individual basis, harassed and abused men should get equal protection.
The voices that warn of an overcorrection related to socially charged, popular movements ultimately help calm the waters and should not be lumped with the deniers.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 20, 2017 - 04:23pm PT
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2,500,000 - 2,472,832 = Still a wayz to go.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 28, 2017 - 10:01am PT
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The NYTimes ran an interesting editorial last week which I think is relevant to what this thread has become,
Women's Lives Cut Short
I provide this article as a starting point to the point implied up by Warbler regarding the ways men and women manipulate each other to get what they want. He was addressing the issue of false reporting of sexual harassment (and sexual assault), both actual harassment and assault and accusations of those behaviors can be viewed as coercive.
It is worth considering what is being coerced for.
Men seem to coerce women for sex, women for resources (largely economic). Because men, by and large, possess more of the economic wealth, that alone can be the source of coercive behavior. Imagine if the economic resources were equally distributed among men and women.
Men also possess attributes of physical strength that exceed those of women (as Warbler never tires of describing) and this attribute is used to coerce women into giving a man what he wants, the threat is bodily harm.
Now it would seem that access to firearms would "equalize" this, but the statistics don't seem to support that idea.
Given the deadly nature of these interactions, even if on the fringes, they would seemingly frame the discussion here (as it has evolved). In the extreme, men are willing to use deadly force to get sex from women, women are willing to use false testimony to get money from men.
There is an inherent asymmetry in these "transactions" that is clear to see, and essentially exists in degrees to the workplace, that is, the overly simplified motives for these bad behaviors remain the same.
You'd think by now men would have a very good idea of what "consensual" activity is, and women what "merit based reward" is...
...women do seem to have a good grasp of "merit based reward," it is odd that men have trouble understanding that "consensual" does not include coercion as part of the reward.
It is the subject of study, to establish the factual basis (as far as the data supports) of these assertions, many of which have been the subject of Callie's research activities.
She would seem to be an excellent candidate for these times.
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 28, 2017 - 11:39am PT
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coercion
Improper use (or threat of improper use) of authority, economic power, physical force, or other such advantage, by a party to compel another to submit to the wishes of its wielder. Agreements entered into, or testaments signed, under coercion are considered illegal and invalid. See also duress and undue influence.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/coercion.html
From the study:
Offered or implied rewards if someone engaged in sexual behavior? Or treated someone badly if he or she didn’t?
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 28, 2017 - 11:52am PT
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That one question has within it the implication that the harasser is abusing a power differential.
The study does not address the great likelihood that the harassers are using a power differential to shield themselves from any repercussions when they exhibit the other behaviors listed.
Told sexual stories or jokes that some might consider offensive?
Made remarks that some might consider sexist or offensive?
Displayed, used or distributed materials (like videos or cartoons) that some might consider sexist or suggestive?
Made attempts to draw someone into a discussion of sexual matters even though the person did not want to join in?
Made gestures or used body language of a sexual nature, which embarrassed or offended someone?
Continued to ask someone for dates, drinks or dinner even though he or she said no?
Made attempts to establish a romantic sexual relationship with someone despite that person’s efforts to discourage it?
Touched someone in a way that made him or her feel uncomfortable?
Made uninvited attempts to stroke, fondle or kiss someone?
Offered or implied rewards if someone engaged in sexual behavior? Or treated someone badly if he or she didn’t?
If your boss is trying to stroke or fondle you, the suggestion of a threat vs. reward is always implied if not overt, and would still constitute coercion.
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 28, 2017 - 11:58am PT
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“Weaksauce” is your argument?
That is weaksauce.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 28, 2017 - 12:26pm PT
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synonyms: force, compulsion, constraint, duress, oppression, enforcement, harassment, intimidation, threats, arm-twisting, pressure
you do understand the definition of "synonym," don't you Warbler?
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 12:27pm PT
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What was the "lesson" you would like us to take away from that clip and your comment? I'd be very interested to have you explain it.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 01:07pm PT
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I get along with most everyone I meet, but I can tell you that if I encounter a person who is, to use a broad term, difficult, I adjust myself accordingly.
That video clip was mildly triggering to me. I found myself tensing up, and recalling times in my life where I had to be able to defend myself against attack. Specifically, it reminded me of a time when I was walking my dog Teddy on 21st Street between 7th and 8th Avenues in NYC.
It was trash collection day, so there were bags at curbside and the sidewalk was thinner than usual. A man, nicely dressed in a casually professional way, was approaching. I moved myself and Teddy toward the right, assuming the man would also edge over to his right, and though the space would be tight, we'd pass without incident. Like would be standard NYC behavior.....
For some reason, that wasn't the way that man wanted it to go down. He waited until just a few steps away, moved to be directly in front of me, and stopped. There was probably less than two feet between us - not enough time for me to do anything except wait for his next action. Or cower, I suppose.
He stood there, blocking my way, looking at me in a way I would describe as "controlled calmness." The look a person who is looking for a fight has - I am sure most men have seen it out of someone in their lives.
I, being the type I am, which is to say - I don't back down - returned the look with whatever bravado I could muster and said "There is enough room for both of us. I moved over, and moved my dog over to the right. You have your right side to pass by."
He looked at me as if he expected me to step into the trash bags on the side.
I said "Look - I moved. Now YOU move." And I began to go forward, which was going to involve me pushing him bodily out of my way.
He stepped forward, nearly nose to nose with me, and in that calm, quiet voice, stated. "I could kill you, you c#&%."
I knew that he was not lying, and was glad I was on a fairly busy street.
He could very well have knifed me, had that been his plan. Instead...I guess his plan was simple to harass me, since his earlier plan(to coerce me to submitting to his imagined superiority) had failed.
Me being me, I still wasn't backing down. But I knew I was in a very, very, dangerous situation. And so I began to yell, loudly:"HELP! THIS MAN IS HARASSING ME!"
Creepster quickly moved his ass to the side then, and started walking away rather quickly.
Yes, I admit that I did take a few verbal swipes at him while he was still in sight. Probably a good dozen or so swipes.
So - the lesson I "got" from that video clip is that there are men out there who will abuse you, through NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN, but just because they are sick individuals. There are men who will beat you, and there are men who will kill you. Just because you didn't bow down to them. And even bowing down won't be enough, for some of those men.
The other lesson I got, Kevin, is that you very well could be "that type" of man. That, in posting that video, you might imagine yourself as the man who cannot handle not getting his way and so throws a tantrum. Or worse.
Perhaps I am wrong. And I do not CARE if you are some historic climb FA'ist. To me, you are just a man who would post a video of an angry, violent man to make some obscure point. Perhaps I am wrong, but I do not get a good vibe from you. At. All.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
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So who is gonna take a polygraph exam?
You can't be coerced into it. You're free to not take it.
...
Later, President of the Company tells me
"we wouldn't have hired you if you refused".
Postscript:
I passed. The examiner laughed when I replied to the "what is the biggest thing you ever stole": with "a car".
True fact:
The Company did uncover a murder (in Lousiana) during one of these "interviews". In this case the killer was a man. The killee's gender escapes me.
And the moral?
Coercion takes many forms.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 28, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
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Congrats, Callie. You were always a hero to me.
Funny thing about Kevin is that I spent years around him in close quarters and never once saw him act disrespectful towards females or every speak that way either.
It might be helpful for someone to tease out those elements that make this such a charged topic for some men. For my money, if a woman doesn't give their full, conscious consent to do the naughty, the guy is crossing the line. Bedding down drunks, no matter what they say or didn't say, is the act of a creep at the very least.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
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I allowed I could be wrong, and I wish you the best in any current or future close relationships you may have with women.
I'll say no more, though there is plenty more I could say. I know how the ST Boys Club can get when the wagons start circling, no offense intended to you.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 28, 2017 - 03:53pm PT
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Happie, you've obviously had bad experiences with the opposite sex, so have I.
This is where the sense of asymmetry comes in, I might have missed it, but I don't think Warbler has had the sort of encounter on the street that Happie described. I think most women worry about those same sorts of encounters, violent (or physically threatening) encounters with men, just because they're women.
Warbler was never fired from a job because he was pregnant, a propos of the waitress scene, and during the same time period, Debbie was fired from her job waitressing at the Dunken Donut across from Lincoln Center in Manhattan when she was pregnant with our daughter.
What bad experiences have you had, Warbler?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
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What bad experiences have you had, Warbler?
Nancy dumped him and his wife divorced him ......?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 04:18pm PT
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Show us the polygraph(s)
Borrowed from another thread
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go.
T. S. Eliot.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 28, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
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Seriously though, Ed, women talk about the lasting psychological impacts of sexual assault and rape. The physical wounds heal quickly for the most part, and in a sense are insignificant.
some rapes result in the death of the woman, or lasting injuries, that can't be minimized.
And neither can the psychological effect of that physical trauma, one that men do not experience for the most part, not being the victim in most of these sorts of crimes. When they are victims, think of the personal violations that occurred at Abu Ghraib, it is cause for international outrage.
I think you have proposed a false equivalent.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
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LOL Kevin
Where's Nancy these days anyways? I last saw her a few years ago.
Nancy won best lookin legs in San Deigo back then, right?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
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^I don't think that is correct.
Here is the actual winner
Clicket or ticket.
Strength, utility, appearance & vitality
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 08:12pm PT
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At one time OB had not only Marudis, Longhorns and the longest pier in CA, but also good vibes.
It was a long time ago.
EDIT:
Ft Rosecrans, that's different.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
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I'm not on the fence.
I know what's going on.
In a court of law, you introduce some doubt and then clear it completely.
That leaves the opposition flatfooted and nowhere left to go or hide ......
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 08:55pm PT
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Hooorrahhh
You ever do YPB?
I never did ..... Happy New Year Kevin :-)
And I miss Nancy, she was cool .....
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Dec 29, 2017 - 06:47am PT
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An almost New Year's bump for Callie!!!
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Jan 17, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
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i made it half way through that video before i became concerned my ears were going to start bleeding or my eyes were going to compulsively roll into the back of my head to save myself from losing more time to absolute inanity... and so i had to shut it off...
i have no love lost for peterson and in general it seems his goal is to be a martyr... but heyzeus christos almighty: that has to be one of the most abhorrent interviewers i’ve ever seen. what an absolute inability/disinterest to listen to what peterson was actually saying...
no idea why he would either agree to be interviewed by someone like that, and if it was a surprise to him, why he stayed in the room...
what a waste of everyone’s time that “conversation” was...
or at least the first half that i managed to make it through...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
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Mr. Peterson has lost his accreditation at the U of T...
Is this another one of your alternative facts, Brennan? or do you have a source for this claim?
...
what a waste of everyone’s time that “conversation” was...
Unless the aim was to actually see/study a textbook case of how to ruin an interview that otherwise could have been full of principle and insight.
"This man @jordanbpeterson is preternaturally calm and composed in the face of a hostile interviewer who also had simply not thought adequately about her ideas and approach. Facts and reason are powerful allies." -Nicholas Cristakis
By Douglas Murray...
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/the-curious-star-appeal-of-jordan-peterson/
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Gilroy
Social climber
Bolderado
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Jan 25, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
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Deserving for a brief internet moment, HFCS. Lulzy.
I trust the good Dr. Rennison is no longer reading this thread. She knows better.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 26, 2018 - 10:18am PT
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how strange... David Brooks' OpEd in the NYTimes today
The Jordan Peterson Moment
"Much of Peterson’s advice sounds to me like vague exhortatory banality. Like Hobbes and Nietzsche before him, he seems to imagine an overly brutalistic universe, nearly without benevolence, beauty, attachment and love. His recipe for self-improvement is solitary, nonrelational, unemotional. I’d say the lives of young men can be improved more through loving attachment than through Peterson’s joyless and graceless calls to self-sacrifice."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 26, 2018 - 12:40pm PT
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how strange...
How come?
...
Just one more...
...
Jordan Peterson caught my attention all the way back in 2011 (thanks youtube) with his analysis and advocacy of The Hero's Journey (thanks Joseph Campbell) and insights like this...
"The purpose of life as far as I can tell from studying mythology and from studying psychology for decades is to find a mode of being that is so meaningful that the fact that life is suffering is no longer relevant or maybe that it is even acceptable." -Peterson
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=260413&msg=1436456#msg1436456
"Life is hard, no wonder people are corrupted by it." -Peterson
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
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Today we took the two rescued amazon parrots to be examined by Dr. Litner of Avian Medical Center in Lake Oswego, Oregon. Earlier, this week we received an email from a nice lady named Callie Rennison of Colorado. I ended up calling Callie, who told me that she has six Lilac Crowned Amazons of her own, and she would like to sponsor our nameless Lilac Crowned Amazon! I happily accepted her offer sponsorship to pay for her vet bill!
Then I offered her the pleasure of naming this Orphaned Amazon, and Callie named this orphan parrot “Lilac”, after one of her own. Then Callie shared with me the special Instagram website she has created for her Lilac Crown flock.
I promised to share it with everyone, so, here’s the link to her Instagram web page about her Lilac Crowns; https://www.instagram.com/daylethespecialamazon/ or Click this Link to view.
Today Dr. Litner gave “Lilac” a complete exam, including lab work, and she discovered that “Lilac” is in near perfect health, just lacking a bit of vitamin A, so she gave her a shot, and cleaned a bit foam off the roof of her mouth, and special diet recommendations, and she requested to see “Lilac” back in two weeks for a follow up visit. Dr. Litner basically gave “Lilac” a clean bill of health, which leads us to believe that “Lilac” may have only arrived into the moldy room recently.
As well as the spunky Blue Front Amazon, I named Bad Boy Blues!, Because he loves to cry out (I’m A Bad BOY” !!!) With a loud chuckled and an infectious laugh. Mr. Bad boy just may be a female, who is sweet, and loves scratches on her head. Dr. Litner discovered that Mr. Blue has a quarantine band from Texas, and she also was given a clean bill of health.
So the Good News is; Five of these rescued parrots, get a pass to move out of the quarantine room tomorrow!
We will move them into wider cages’ with new toys and a view of the widescreen TV. Tomorrow is shower day, so after their bath, they will move up to the main room, and may be able to play outside in the aviary, (Weather & time permitting). |
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