Discussion Topic |
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velvet!
Trad climber
La Cochitaville
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 23, 2017 - 10:49am PT
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Hey Team,
I need your help. In an activity where injury and death is ever present, where we have all lost loved ones repeatedly...how do we justify going back into the hills again and again?
I used to say that you could die of cancer or a car crash anyways so its worth it. But you know how many friends my city dwelling brother has buried? None. Me? I have a contacts list full of dead friends.
I know climbing is beautiful and it has given me so much. Purpose, direction, community, incredible memories and experiences. But it takes away those very same things over and over in a million different ways. Solo-ng. Classic Route. Big Mountains. Storms. Rock Fall. Rappelling.....5.8, 5.9, limit pushing. Nothing is safe.
Niels wrote to me after his brother Erik died climbing that "The mountains comfort even as they kill"
Jon Gleason wrote that at least we (climbers) have experience and memories and fully live versus normal 9-5'er folks.
Chantel Astorga says that if its truly in your desires to go, if your wishes are free of ego and Instagram, climbing is beautiful.
After Quinn's accident, all I wanted todo was run to the hills. After Niels' I'm toying with a short trip to a crag close to Aconcagua. How am I any different from an insatiable druggie or an abused girlfriend that keeps going back?
How do you justify going back after you take off your black funeral garb for the N-th time?
EDIT: I clearly do need to rethink all of this but I am literally asking what do YOU tell yourself. thanks, folks.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2017 - 10:53am PT
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Kinda seems like you answered your own question.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 23, 2017 - 11:10am PT
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How many times can you go to the well
before you opt for indoor plumbing?
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Nov 23, 2017 - 12:39pm PT
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Harding said, "Because we're all insane!"
But I suspect it is because we want to see what we can do, and do it in the mountains, and because when we start we think we are immortal, and because it tries to satisfy our ego. (That last doesn't work well, because no matter what you do, someone will shortly do it better)
And because we're all insane of course.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 23, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
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A combination of factors make it addictive. No matter how eloquent our rationales. After having left climbing for some time one might form a different perspective of the activity.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 23, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
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I climbed for over thirty years. Unfortunately, injuries curtailed my climbing career, but you know, I really don't miss it.
Life is short, and offers many opportunities to experience it.I often ask myself what did I miss out on by devoting my free time to climbing.
Good luck on whatever path takes you.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Nov 23, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
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Velvet, I've known you for a while now and have seen your passion for climbing and life grow. We've both lost many friends to the Mountains. I feel your pain, but just sharing the path for whatever distance with my friends gives me peace. . .df
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Nov 23, 2017 - 01:21pm PT
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It needs no justification. Norwegian philosopher Peter Wessel Zapffe said that once we're born we're slowly dying. The only thing that is sure is death. Climbing make us feel better, feel alive, give our lives subjective meaning on our way to the grave. It's a good way of dying. Some push their borders for 50 years and live well until they're 100 years or more. Others die young...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
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once we're born we're slowly dying.
Oooh horsesh!t.
Just keep on livin.
Hey, Libby lets all pile into Lobers old POS rescue truck again like that time when 4 or 5 of us all got in the front seat and drove back.
Hahahaha
I steered and used the brakes and someone else had to use the accelerator and we were laughing our asses off driving back.
Way tooo funny. None of this morbid sh!t.
Git on with livin ....... hooorrahhh :-)
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ruppell
climber
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Nov 23, 2017 - 02:12pm PT
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Every friend I have lost to climbing would not want there actions to affect mine. They would want me to keep doing what I love doing. Climbing.
There's been more than a few times that I've climbed a route again that I did with a friend that has passed. Each one of those times put a smile on my face. The funny memories that seem to come out of thin air when your just placing a piece or reaching for a crimp.
Sure, I miss them all. Sure, I questioned whether it would be me next time. Sure, I would really dig it if they where still around to tie in with. But there not and that's life. I'll keep living until I don't.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 23, 2017 - 02:25pm PT
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How am I any different from an insatiable druggie I would say this attitude and sense of urgency combined with a lack of appreciation for time and statistics as applied to the risks one can take in this sport is a dangerous combination.
I don't think being a high end life climber and seeking out those next level challenges we all want necessarily has to involve such urgency and risk, in fact I think taking excessive risks is a sign you're probably taking shortcuts to get to the same place and maybe an ego check is in order before you wind up dead.
My 2c.
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hellroaring
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 23, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
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Because bowling is like drinking a non fat decaf latte...
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 23, 2017 - 03:33pm PT
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An empty life is no life at all. You may have to dig at times to find the meaning that your own life has for you.
What your life and love means and how it is shared to/with others, both people that climb and who don't, is so important.
An out of control appetite can eventually kill you, starvation will kill you too and a lot sooner. I personalty recommend thinking deep thoughts and contemplating life while eating a delicious cheeseburger. :)
Life is to be lived and as others have stated death is a sure thing, so put some of this life into someone or something that will live on when you are gone.
From what I gather you are strong and loyal, I hope you find your peace.
my thoughts,
Jon
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Nov 23, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
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Libby,
I've only lost two distant friends/ acquaintences to climbing.
I lost two closer friends to back country skiing.
I'm a below average climber with a low risk threshold.
Maybe dial it back a bit, take up sportclimbing, or take a rest.
Ghost said in the "collective grief of being a climber thread" :it sure beats having my family watch me drink my self to death.
There are a myriad of reasons to climb (or not climb). I continue because nothing else makes me feel whole and calm, nothing makes me feel in the present.
When I'm strung out on lead; I can't think about any thing else.
I guess I can't stop?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3020802/The-Collective-Grief-of-Being-a-Climber
Maybe you can't stop either?
edit : the deep lasting friendships I have made are what keep me coming back.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Nov 23, 2017 - 04:04pm PT
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Happy Thanksgiving, Velvet.
I'm guessing we have a considerable age difference between us. At age 65, I have lost DOZENS of my friends and family, some to "old age" but most to cancer. Yes, losing people you love is painful. But life is still beautiful and filled with joy.
I have lost no close friends to climbing fatalities.
I have lost one acquaintance (who I quite cared about) to a climbing accident.
Why the difference in our experiences, disregarding age?
Most likely you and your friends are pushing the envelope of grades, speed and safety much more than my crowd does.
So that is maybe part of your question - what drives you and your group of climbing friends to take more risk? Is the risk higher for your personal friends because of what they do, despite their (presumably) vastly better skill level than the average climber?
I just read Quinn Brett's recent blog post, where she describes (I'm paraphrasing) her anger with herself for pushing it that day and taking an unnecessary risk, despite feeling "off".
I personally climb because I love the feeling of it. It's for sure one of my favorite things to do. I don't climb because I have a void that needs to be filled. I don't climb because It does something for my ego. This was a motivation when I was younger but not anymore. You asked the question if ego and addiction are playing a role in these fatalities. It's a good question, and if the answer for you personally is, Yes, maybe that's something you want to work on. The self-work I have done around ego and the void over the years has been far more fulfilling and valuable to me than climbing.
At this point in my life, I get this fantastic feeling from climbing without pushing myself, and with trying to minimize my risk. I place a good amount of gear if I can, I back off stuff I think might be too risky for my current skill level. Might I still get killed climbing? Sure, sh*t happens. BTW, I climb far less "hard" than I used to when I was younger, but the ratings don't affect my enjoyment at all. It's still the same joy. In fact it's better now.
Over 7 billion humans on the planet. I'm incredibly privileged that I actually have the time and resources to play. That is what climbing is when you come down to it, just play. Nothing wrong with that, playing.
It seems you wrote your post because you are really suffering from all the losses in your life. I'm so sorry for that. Be well and take care of yourself.
Phyl
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Nov 23, 2017 - 04:31pm PT
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It makes the PBR and ramen taste f u King fantastic at the end of the day if you do it right.
+ what Pylp said.
We’re all lucky just to be here. Especially the here and now us climbers get to experience.
Beats watching your friends be killed or persecuted by wooly mammoths, foreign armies, diseases or Republicans.
Sure it’s a cliche to say “he/she died doing what they loved.” But it better than getting the chop from the cholera or an aneurysm on the pooper I reckon.
I’ve lost more than a few friends to the life. It’s just part of it all. Feel it, and then keep on keeping on.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Nov 23, 2017 - 04:31pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
and the thing about the story is, i’m sure the couple in the farmhouse was looking through the window at the troop of troubadours tromping through the snow thinking: “can you imagine living like that?”
some-times/days/years/lifetimes we’re the people tromping through the field not 100% sure if the belay will hold...
and other-times/days/years/lifetimes we’re the folks sitting in the farmhouse planning our next sport climbing vacay...
if it’s in season and you can’t imagine living like those other folks on the other side of the glass: t’is all good.
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hacky47
Trad climber
goldhill
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Nov 23, 2017 - 04:36pm PT
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For me it is about being in the moment....escaping reality is my reality
Playing music seems to also serve that purpose for me
Finding time, gear, partners, money, energy, that can be hard
As soon as i start up, the mundane things that I find in life disappear
Also, it's not what I climb but who I climb with.
I've lost many friends oddly climbing deaths among them are few
Car wrecks , rivers , drugs, disease, avalanches, all of them different ;(
While in the moment I am generally trying to live thus not thinking about dying
I want to be " in the moment " when I die
Boots on
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cat t.
climber
california
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Nov 23, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
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I agree with JLP, that the sense of urgency is something to be wary of.
I'm not a very good climber, but I run around with a lot of people who seem compelled to force 30 hours into every day. It's hard to not get caught up in the sense of urgency, and to judge yourself for any squandered time. Be careful of that habit, I suppose?
I've had lots of conversations in which my assertion that we should try to modulate our risk tolerance is countered by my friends with, "you will still encounter unexpected weather, or find loose crap on an approach/descent, etc." Those things are all true--there are always going to be risks--but I don't think the fact that the totally unexpected CAN happen means we should throw our hands up and say that we shouldn't even try to evaluate our own practices or attitudes.
It's okay to step back. It's okay to decide that the current level of risk actually isn't worth it, but there's some level that is. (Easy for me to say, as a crappy climber who has never pushed any limits, who had nothing to lose by taking a big long break from climbing in the year after I lost a good friend to it.)
As to what makes climbing in general it worth it: it's mediative movement; it's a puzzle with a resolution (unlike complicated work); it's an amazing way to interact with the world in a 3rd dimension, and to truly know a place; it's the source of deep friendships.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Nov 23, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
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Climbing is awful. Especially the trade routes close to the parking lot. Tell your friends how bad it sucks and to not bother taking up the sport.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 23, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
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what do YOU tell yourself I don't justify this activity. In general, you can wait until you are stronger for a route, and you can wait for better conditions. Beyond these two things, the risks in this sport are pretty low. I get satisfaction from the process of meeting the challenges, very little from any risks that, as an aside, might be involved. An element of risk generally pisses me off because it might force me to walk away.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 23, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
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escaping reality is my reality
dingdingdingding
also like to hike, confront internally constructed boundaries, feel aloof up on them rarified ledge belays.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Nov 23, 2017 - 06:55pm PT
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I just climb super safe like a sissy. It's not dangerous at all
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mudrock
climber
Eastside
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Nov 23, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
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velvet! said "Nothing is safe."
Werner said "Just keep on livin."
Yep... you're livin if risk and reward are much on your mind.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nov 23, 2017 - 08:05pm PT
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Climbing is aful. Especially the trade routes close to the parking lot. Tell your friends how bad it sucks and to not bother taking up the sport.
This needs to be said outload over, and over, and over....
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Nov 23, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
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Jon Gleason wrote that at least we (climbers) have experience and memories and fully live versus normal 9-5'er folks.
Are you kidding me?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 24, 2017 - 05:33am PT
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How do we justify this activity?
The same way that a heroin addict justifies his next fix. No matter how many times I scared the sh#t out of myself free-soloing, I HAD to do it again.
I can't tell you how many times I made a deal with God, that I would quit climbing if he got me out my predicament alive. But the next day I couldn't stop myself from climbing again.
How many climbers do you think end up having a mid-life crisis? None, is my guess.
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Wen
Trad climber
Bend, OR
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Nov 24, 2017 - 08:24am PT
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I struggle with this too Velvet, particularly the concept of introducing my kids to the sport. Sometimes it feels hard to justify, particularly right after a loss, and it seems like this is often lately.
I keep circling back to living in the moment and doing the things that make our life complete right now, not living in fear of what may come. If climbing is one of those things that help you live in the now, then maybe that's how we justify it? Maybe the risks of loss are balanced by the enjoyment of living in the tangible moment? Balanced by having a community of interesting people to spend your time with? Balanced by being in places that fill your heart?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 24, 2017 - 08:25am PT
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When people close to us, especially young people, die climbing we question. We wonder about the worth of continuing an activity with such obvious risks. For half of a century climbing has been an integral part of my life. Without climbing my life would have taken a completely different and unknown trajectory. I can only speak about the life I have led and I will say that the climbing lifestyle that has been so important to me has been a major factor in keeping me physically fit and mentally focused as I have aged.
Where would I be at 74 without climbing? Would I be in the same poor physical condition of most Americans my age? Hard to know but I can say that climbing has given me lifelong purpose and the drive to maintain fitness and health.
I know several much younger climbers, much younger than me, who tell me that climbing saved them from lives spiraling in the wrong direction towards alcohol and drugs.
Life is tough and it is framed by death. Whatever gives you meaning and purpose while you are alive is, to me, worth it.
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Nov 24, 2017 - 09:10am PT
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i lit a candle yesterday for loved ones lost. it burns again this morning, partly for your pain. i will walk alone to the crag today trying to sort my thoughts. i expect to see friends old and new, to taste that drug we choose. if i am given safe passage i will turn and thank the spirit of that place. and in the moments embrace joy with a little sadness they pass so fast
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Nov 24, 2017 - 09:28am PT
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Been asking myself the same thing lately. After having a very close encounter with a major rockfall on El Cap this fall I’m really questioning why I put myself in the danger zone with the risk of leaving my two little girls without a father. It scares me....
Still I can’t help making plans on the Captain for the Spring. I don’t think I can quit, even if I did want to...
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Nov 24, 2017 - 10:05am PT
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The things I’ve brought back from climbing have helped me in every aspect of my life. Focus, sense of purpose, strength, flexibility and lasting meaningful friendships are just a few. It is a large part of who I am and why I want to be here.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Nov 24, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
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100% of people die.
I think the better question is: How do you want to live?
What's your balance between longevity and quality of life?
If you make different choices, are you going to be happy with them when you are very, very old? Or full of regrets?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 24, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
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It's fun, Libby! And risk management is all about attitude and awareness!
Saying it's fun is another way of describing our drive to expand human abilities, physically and spiritually, and however you philosophically gauge such things. You know more than most people about what is going on in other parts of the world, and why these things are so important.
My measure of acceptable/unavoidable risk is to not do anything more dangerous than driving on the freeway. It's a really bad idea to assume too much risk in order to bolster egos and improve standings in the pecking order....whether climbing or driving or anything else. You of all people don't need that, with all that you have been accomplishing!
In retrospect I can't even imagine how I survived some of the incidents in the early 1960s in Yosemite, and the community clearly didn't expect I would survive. The ego competition is why I formally dropped out of the Yosemite Rat Race in the late 1960s. My motivations for climbing were different. Royal never really forgave me for becoming an apostate to the rock climbing religion. Yet climbing still continues to be my principle sport for over 60 years. Even though so many of my partners, friends, and heroes are gone now, yet others are here daily on SuperTopo chatting about every topic under the sun. And most of my climbing has been done after I 'dropped out' of the Yosemite competition, much of it free solo and just for fun. And I made a commitment decades ago to not make the angels work so hard.
I am in awe before the accomplishments of your generation of climbers ... proving that limitations are bound only by the mind, and the mind is bound only by our perception of those limitations. I deeply wish for you all to live long happy lives.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 24, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
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hey there say, cleo... was 'paging you, as valerie' :)
say, i have your latest card, but do not have the envelope, :O
do you have a new address for here in usa... :)
i can try to email you from supertopo, but, i think folks say
that it does not work :(
EDIT:
GOT IT ... THANKS...
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Nov 25, 2017 - 06:50am PT
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Why do you have to justify anything to anyone ? Do *you* need it ?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 25, 2017 - 07:47am PT
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Many people have died pursuing their personal goals of ultimate achievement. Mountain climbing is not unique in this regard.
Lots of friends who do Ironmans. It's [most of] their life and it seems like a healthy and good one.
At the finish line you get your time, and there it is in stone, and chances are you didn't just get the record. It's the most solid ego check ever, all that hard work, and there's your spot somewhere in the middle.
In climbing, and many other "sports" where people seem to die with higher regularity, the competition never gets resolved with such granularity and certainty. Hard work and talent can be shortcut by a willingness to take risks.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Nov 25, 2017 - 08:41am PT
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Many comments have focused on the two ends of the spectrum....live or die. Sentiments such dealing with “living full”, “died doing what they loved”, “take the risks, live your life”, “compelled to do this or I would be like a dead person”
We mourn with profound ache those that have passed and talk openly about our grief.
In more hushed tones we talk about those that took all the risks, lived life about as full and rich as possible, inspring others, and they didn’t die pushing the boundaries, but became so grievously injured they may never be whole again. These folks are fewer because, quite frankly, many high end climbers, adventurers, bikers, don’t survive their injuries.
What must it be like to be alive but in a way that defies every definition we have ever had of being alive? I’m sure we’ve all thought about it, but (at least for me) it’s pushed out of my mind almost upon conception of such a thought. I can much more comfortably conceive of my death, but a life altering injury makes me shake (even knowing I don’t have my “whole life in front of me”.
I think many of us take risks in our quest for adventure and typically measure it as an “either/or” proposition. Either we live or we die. And if something happens in the middle, well maybe some PT, maybe a cast, even some rods and pins. But there’s a no man’s land in that middle ground most of us don’t even want to contemplate. It’s a dark dark place and how do we embrace and lift up those that are there, hopefully for just awhile as we pray and hope for their wholeness?
Susan
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jstan
climber
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Nov 25, 2017 - 08:52am PT
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Life gives one the ability to take in deep breaths of clean cool air and to have the muscles warmed by the demands being made of them.
Nothing else is needed.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 25, 2017 - 09:49am PT
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I'm skeptical of anyone who says if you don't do it this way or that way you're not really living fully. There is a season for everything.
I guess I've grappled with these questions: To what degree is the obsessive behavior destructive? Am I doing XXX to avoid something uncomfortable, to be OK in someone else's eyes or to satisfy the rigid definition of OK that my ego is putting out there when something else in my gut isn't so resolute? To what degree is my obsessive behavior positive and essential to becoming excellent at anything? If the latter feels more true, does mastery of the thing in question contribute enough to the universe for me to feel OK with the other sacrifices I have to make to pursue it with the amount of focus I'm giving it?
I guess my advice to myself and anyone else struggling with the same questions would be to give yourself permission to change your answers (and overrule your ego or the peanut gallery if you find their direction is at odds with something else inside of you) as you move through times of loss or times of intense motivation.
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velvet!
Trad climber
La Cochitaville
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2017 - 11:33am PT
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Thanks for the responses everyone.
Perhaps in my haste, I didn't express my sentiments and inquiry very clearly.
Niels died rappelling. A known dangerous aspect of the sport, but not high risk per se. He was someone who, before his second brothers death, pushed his own limits by doing things like a headlamp lit free solo of the Rostrum after a day of YOSAR training. But after Erik passed, he toned it down. He knew he wasn't allowed to die. He became very safety conscious.
Felix died on the East Buttress of El Cap. A well traveled valley classic by climber induced rock fall.
My own leg shattering accident happened on an approach to a mountain classic.
What do you tell yourself, how to you feel happy heading back into an activity that, even when ego is checked and safety is on the forefront of your mind, and risks are minimized can and has killed. And will kill again?
"Risk, for it truly to be risky, means that some must pay the cost. Some will die. Others will be maimed. It can't be otherwise." Niels Tietze
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 25, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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I think most of us would agree with this statement:
“Climbing is wonderful, but it’s not worth dying for.”
I would guess that even the climbers who take the most risks today would not argue with this; I am confident that each of my friends who have died climbing would have agreed.
So we all agree it is not worth getting killed for, but friends keep dying, and we all take some measure of utterly unnecessary risk, every time we rope up.
One of John Long’s very best stories is the about the time his ego almost got him killed when he was about 19 years old, when soloing with Bachar. I noticed it has been retold in an audio version with photos, and it couldn’t be more timely.
The moral of the story, “to thine own self be true” –especially when your life is at stake–is something we all need to remember. Listen to John read it here.
https://vimeo.com/66605812
Also, I have to comment on my old friend Warbler’s statement:
…no male climber has ever, in 50 years of climbing, fretted about [deaths of friends] to me personally, or here on ST (impersonally) publicly. I've seen my share of friends go down hard, this type of reaction never crossed my mind. Just recently another woman posted a very similar theme in a thread here.
To the contrary, Kevin, I have “fretted,” and cried about, deaths of my friends both privately and pubiclly, as well as having written a bit on the subject.
The risks we take are an essential part of what makes climbing so compelling. The late, great Royal Robbins said, “We have to remember that if we’re talking about real risk, occasionally there is a price to be paid.”
I think Libby’s question is essential to ask, and I have no answer. But art is often more articulate than analysis, and “The Only Blasphemy” gets right to the heart of the issue.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2017 - 11:44am PT
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One's destiny in this life determines when and how one must exit its mortal body.
One's developed consciousness in this life determines what body one gets next and its destiny.
There is NO such thing as one life only and that is it ......
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Nov 25, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
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Maybe, maybe not. Absolutes about death are not absolutely certain.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 25, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
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In the words of the great philosopher Mei Ang Liss, "It is what it is"
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2017 - 04:03pm PT
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There's a whole spectrum of risk in climbing. Top roping a 50' crag with no loose rock on it is very low risk. Leading an X rated climb can be pretty high risk. We all make choices of how much risk we are willing to accept. I have gone to 5 open books and changed what climb I would do because I don't want to be under other climbers with a lot of loose rock at the top.
There's always random stuff that can happen on any climb, and it pays to be vigilant about tying in and double checking anchors etc. especially when rappelling
So personally I can justify the relatively low risk types of climbing that I do. But I know other people who are far more advanced than I am may need to introduce higher risk simply to do the types of climbs that challenge them. It's up to all of us to determine where that risk/reward ratio limit is.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Nov 25, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
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I try to always be honest about and conscious of the risk I am taking, and to regularly ask myself if it is still worth it. So far, it still is.
You can die in various ways climbing, with or without making a mistake, but there is no fault in accepting a well-understood risk
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mudrock
climber
Eastside
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Nov 25, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
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velvet! said, "What do you tell yourself, how do you feel happy...?"
Werner side-stepped a bit. Maybe developing one's consciousness is a guaranteed consequence of accepting the risk inherent in being a conquistador of the useless. Maybe not.
Knowingly assuming risk can offer access to the sublime.
From the long side of 60 years around the sun, what I tell myself is that I have brushed against the sublime and no one or no thing can take that from me, as long as I "keep on livin."
I don't know much about being happy, except that I like how it comes and goes for such superficial and trivial reasons and is so pleasant.
I tell myself that the sublime *is* always there, and I'm *always* ready to welcome it. But I'm not addicted to searching for it. I tell myself that just having fun is Ok.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nov 26, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
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In an activity where injury and death is ever present, where we have all lost loved ones repeatedly...how do we justify going back into the hills again and again?
We could apply this statement to any number of activities we humans participate in. Climbing is analogous to the hero's journey in mythology.
A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man
The mysterious adventure is what it is all about, we can live this on a daily basis if we adopt the proper perception.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2017 - 11:50pm PT
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My own leg shattering accident happened on an approach to a mountain classic.
What do you tell yourself, how to you feel happy heading back into an activity that, even when ego is checked and safety is on the forefront of your mind, and risks are minimized can and has killed. And will kill again?
"Risk, for it truly to be risky, means that some must pay the cost. Some will die. Others will be maimed. It can't be otherwise." Niels Tietze
We watched the helicopter on your rescue across the canyon, on our own little adventure. On the way down from that one, I slipped and fell and avoided, somehow, a bad blow to my head.
You didn't think that that approach would result in your injury, but you knew that the possibility existed that such an injury was possible.
I was tired, and didn't think I'd have a problem on the descent, but there I was thanking my lucky stars.
We put ourselves into these situations with the understanding that there is a risk, and we are willing to undertake risk based on our expectation of the outcome, both positive and negative. Sometimes this process is rational, sometimes more than a little irrationality injects itself; we pull it off, we don't pull it off, so many factors involved.
When we arrived back at our "base camp" we heard of your accident, besides being worried and concerned for you, absolutely understood that it could happen to any of us. It's funny as we gain experience we remember these sorts of things... since John Long's gym accident I always ask to see my partner's tie-in knot, both at the gym and outside. Such a little thing to check, such big consequences if an incomplete tie-in goes undetected.
There are so many such "experiences," and one related to you, Libby, related to vigilance when moving over that terrain. It is not a judgmental thought, but an admonition from a friend.
Three years ago two of my closest climbing partners had climbing career ending accidents within two weeks of each other, and I was there both times. Previously I had never had a partner injured climbing in 40 years of climbing.
I still go out, and I still take risks, perhaps not intentionally as risky as before, but intention often has little to do with the outcome. Still, we prepare and attempt to stack the deck in our favor.
My father never understood why I took the risk climbing. He was right to say that not climbing would eliminate that particular risk, that it was the responsible thing for a husband and a father and a son and a brother to do.
I never did have an answer for him.
Much earlier when I started climbing at 16, I asked my mother if she was worried about my climbing, she answered, "no, I trust you." I don't know where that came.
Maybe it was that expression of trust, however, that let me go out and take those risks and have those amazing experiences. But I don't think for a moment that luck hasn't had a lot to do with the outcome so far.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:19am PT
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hey there say, lambone... as to your quote here:
Nov 24, 2017 - 09:28am PT
Been asking myself the same thing lately. After having a very close encounter with a major rockfall on El Cap this fall I’m really questioning why I put myself in the danger zone with the risk of leaving my two little girls without a father. It scares me....
Still I can’t help making plans on the Captain for the Spring. I don’t think I can quit, even if I did want to...
then-- just do everything you can, to provide for their future in some
strong way, and, be there as much as you can, to coach and teach them,
as they grow... they will get what they NEED from this-- which is your love...
many other children in the world, come to know that 'daddies' have things
that they MUST do... if done in 'constructive' (and not sterile cold hearted ways) ... your kids will know and respect that, and have a strong
foundation...
they will know that this is PART of who you are...
*however, i will add... if you have very young BABIES... i think it is
WISER still, to STOP for awhile, and BUILD those earlier bonding-foundations, FIRST (so a young mom is not left with babies that will never know the father) ... as the foundations gets 'more and more' built upon,
then, more understanding can grow...
they will still have pain if they loose you, but at least it
won't seem 'senseless' to them, or your family...
and, you will have DONE the best you could, to build around
WHO you are...
say, nice to hear from you, :)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 27, 2017 - 04:42am PT
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Ah, the Wisdom of the Pages of ST.
Makes me feel good just being here.
One fine thread among so many coarse ones.
Thanks all.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 27, 2017 - 09:26am PT
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I like Ed's comments, I'd add that a true acceptance of risk and consequences is a process of maturity.
It doesn't take a lot of maturity to go free solo something when you're 23 - and at that age you can probably do a good job articulating something that sounds wise and beyond your years on the matter - it's another thing entirely to make peace with yourself in the hospital after a lifelong debilitating injury or the death of someone close.
I believe this process of acceptance makes one more aware and more vigilant to the risks around them, and generally less likely to take them.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 27, 2017 - 09:32am PT
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Just checking in on the Junkie/OCD/Hotel California thread.
Remember, YER the one that has to ask for help.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 27, 2017 - 10:06am PT
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Just finished visiting my Mom at the skilled nursing facility. Seeing the folks "living" there, I'd rather fall off a mountain.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Nov 27, 2017 - 10:52am PT
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Just finished visiting my Mom at the skilled nursing facility. Seeing the folks "living" there, I'd rather fall off a mountain. I have watched several family members die in nursing homes (or whatever they call themselves), and all of them wanted to die long before death was permitted, perhaps because they still had money. Do not let yourself go this way.
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cellardoor
Trad climber
berkeley,ca
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
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We're all going to die. We lose people in our lives regardless of activities such as rock climbing. I do agree that risk and death is ever more present in extreme activities, but every single person on this planet has and will deal with loss - whether it's a job, relationship, death, lifestyle.
We're all suffering and we're all struggling together. I have lost my best friend to drugs, uncle to alcohol, and my father went missing a few years ago. None of these incidents are related to climbing.
I find a lot of comfort knowing that my pain is a part of everyone else's pain. It allows me to step out of my small perspective of grief and sorrow, which is pretty self-centered, to understand and empathize with others around me. It helps to feel not so alone and isolated.
I think maintaining this perspective allows me to continue my life with joy and rock climbing is very much so a joyful activity. I have also come to terms with the risk and I am ok with it if I die.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
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IMO the risk is not so much of death as of permanent incapacity.
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clode
Trad climber
portland, or
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
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Does a descending death count as a "climbing" death? Many years ago, during a weekend at Smith Rock, after a great day of climbing, around the campfire that night someone said that one of our club's climbers died while descending from a successful summit of Whitney. Our friend was glissading down and went over a cliff band to his death.
After hearing that I immediately felt the winds go out of my sails. I lost all interest in climbing at that moment. Yet, after a week or so had passed, I was back into the climbing again, albeit at a reduced difficulty level.
I don't have to "justify" climbing, any more than I have to justify eating a salad instead of a cheeseburger. Climbing is simply a part of my life, like raking leaves, or shopping for groceries. I try to get enjoyment and fulfillment from everything I do. Therein lies my justification.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
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I screwed up, and didn't get killed young.
I suffered a devastating shoulder injury that ended my serious climbing career. Too bad, I was on the fast track to an early death in the mountains.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
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Answer to OP.
We do this because we have to. Because there is no other life without this life. Some of us may experience a shift in interest and the need will die out and so we change.
A person needs to do what a person needs to be happy.
And to be philosophic:
Life consists of change. The game is to roll with the change, adapt to the change and hopefully become the driving force of the change, steering it to the best for all.
And more:
Though most people do not have a full awareness of this, we are immortal beings and life is long. ( the opposite of what you were taught to believe ) So live life as if what you do matters now and 200 years from now. Your friends are only gone for now. They will be players in your future as they have been in your past.
You will survive. Surviving is all there is. Do it well.
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couchmaster
climber
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Nov 27, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
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I was going to say that most of us don't put it out there as far as you do Velvet. Then your 2nd post hits on some rather normal climber type accident things and I have to change tack. I've often thought of John Longs and Lynn Hill's (2 totally competent people) simple and stupid tie in accidents. Double check and check again, but for the most part I think I just push the potential bad out of my mind, generally don't believe it will happen to me (the Hill/Long tie in accidents means no one, certainly me, are immune from that though). And I see folks like Donini up there putting it out there so far for so long and still so safe (alive), that it makes it easier to forget. For me.
My best to you, yours and everyone else
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 29, 2017 - 09:28am PT
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Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did -Mark Twain
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Longstick
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 29, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
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Comparing wildland fire-fighting and climbing risk:
I grew up in Yosemite in the late 50’s – 60’s where my Dad was a ranger. I remember him talking about Warren Harding climbing El Cap and my meeting Wayne Merry (Fossil Climber) while standing in line at the Lodge with my tray collecting a shrimp cocktail and plate of swordfish for dinner. Anyway, I always admired climbers and aspired to one day give it a try.
College provided me that opportunity. It was the early 70’s, I was at Berkeley and a few of my fellow forestry students had climbed and were willing to take me under their wing. No climbing walls back then…just train by hanging from door jams at Mulford Hall and lizard around the outside of building walls. Then an occasional trip bouldering…usually top-roped. It was on such an outing that I realized my dream of climbing was not a ‘fit’ to my temperament. While six foot eight, I was skinny, wiry and strong. But one day climbing a crack that my buddy said was ideal size for a fist …well my fingers and hand bones were too long to make a fist to fit in the narrow crack. I couldn’t get a bite and soon panic overtook me as my hands started to pull out. My foot started to sewing machine…cursing … sweating and pulling for my life…I was close to falling. But I scrapped, tore skin, and clawed myself to the top. I also did some rappelling, which was no fun.
Whew!!
Key… no fun. It was awful. It was nauseating. And nothing was going to change me. I could not shake that experience of dread and fear. I sold my blue RR boots and stuck with backpacking, wildland fire-fighting, and forestry.
Now about fire-fighting risk, I had my share of life-threatening incidents over 20+ years of summer fire fighting. But nothing extraordinary or special. Pretty tame. I started in summer of ’73 till ‘98. Mostly as misc-overhead….no shot crews…no smokejumping. The little risk-taking on the ground never affected me like climbing gob-smacked me. I always felt I could assess the fire, the terrain, the fuels, and the weather. Learn and be smart. But boy, I did some stupid things … actually much more risky and life-threatening stuff than that day crack climbing. God let me live.
But, panic never swept over me. The risk of death didn’t keep me home when another summer arrived. I never talked to my wife about the big snags that fell next to me and nearly augured me, nor the large rollers that nearly crushed my skull, oh…and the couple of times while scouting to flag a line that I got trapped by a crown fire and nearly lost it. Kissing the earth to get a clean breath of air and hoping it won’t run out.
It came to an end when my health gave out and I changed jobs.
Why did I like one risk and not the other? I liked the way I felt when handling risk and making critical fire fighting decisions. I felt calm, memory, logic, and observation skills seemed to spike to their highest performance levels…adrenaline junky - that was me. With it I was a decisive and clear leader. Yeah, it just felt good…. So much better than the person I was during the typical decision-making on my 8 to 5 job.
I had always wondered what would I do in a life or death moments. Fire fighting gave me the answer. I so wanted to do well. I was a hard-line stickler for walking away if I felt the danger was too high. Suffer no fools…none… I had turned my back on supervisor orders that I thought were stupid. Only about 1 in 10 – 15 fires by my calculation ever posed a risk to make me tingle. On the whole, things were usually within reason. But even the easy fires made me smile, seeing the fire lick the sky was a rush.
Looking back, had it worked out differently and I became a climber instead of a fire-fighter… I think the same sort of adrenaline addiction would have gotten me killed or nearly.
Why? Because the fire fighters never ...never are willing to speak or mentally accept the loss of a fellow fire fighter. No house, no acreage, no timber was worth a life. The culture was and is safety first. That is very different…it kept me honest…to try not to lie to myself, to care for my safety and others…it was real. Fire and death was seen as a cunning enemy. If you were going down a brush filled canyon on my sector, I would grab you and say “NO!”
Climbing … do people do the same? Is risk treated as the same cunning and evil intruder? Aside from accident reports, twice checking gear, harness, tie-ins…do you do enough? Since climbing is often seen as a solo event or nearly so….then what is the obligation or role of the community and peers when safety is discussed?
It seems that climbing risk is a more like the temptress, the alluring mistress that everyone knows about… and no one talks about it with the same sense of community obligation to keep away from her. Risk is treated as something deeply personal. No one can impose their standard or opinion on another. Can one in the climbing culture say to a friend, “You are making a mistake…Stop…just stop!” Seems like climbers must honor the individual and respect their decision. You are alone.
So different than fire-fighting.
Or NOT? For I am not a climber….
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 30, 2017 - 07:19am PT
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Longstick, TFPU, that's a good post.
Can one in the climbing culture say to a friend, “You are making a mistake…Stop…just stop!”
Yes. Climbing, except for soloists, is a team sport. Climbers die in pairs quite often. When you take off on lead, you are placing your life in the hands of your belayer. When you say "on belay,' you're saying you are taking responsibility for your partners very being.
I've never understood people picking up partners willy-nilly at some campsite.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 30, 2017 - 07:32am PT
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Gary, as far as roping up with ex tempore partners goes, I've done it several times.
I recall the first time -- when it resulted in my near-death and a broken ankle after a fall of around 100'.
I never climbed with that guy again and I've always made sure to vett the climbers with whom I roped up from then on.
So I had my lesson early in my climbing career and lived to climb another day with others from NZ and MN, even remote, out-of-the-way places like BC.
Then there was Borghoff.
I never met Willy Nilly. Where's he from?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 30, 2017 - 07:39am PT
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I've never understood people picking up partners willy-nilly at some campsite.
I've done it hundreds of times.
For example.
There's this guy standing next to a motorcycle on the other side of Camp 4 parking lot.
He's looking at me and I'm looking him and neither of us knows each other.
So I drive my beater car over to him and say; "Ya wanna go climbing?"
Of course, he does and we do.
He tells me his name is John Middendorf, and that is the day I met him when he first came to the Valley .......
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:18am PT
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Great posts Werner and DMT. I've only climbed El Cap once--when I was 18. I met two Alaskan river guides in C4. We did a couple of days of free climbing and then went for it--one of my life's greatest experiences.
What DMT says about risk tolerance and reassessment are undeniably true for most of us. As a teenager/young adult, I was bound and determined to become a badass alpinist. I read Messner, ran hills like a maniac, even tried Messner's cold shower therapy. But as I started to do ascents that were building blocks for becoming that kind of climber, I quickly started to reassess my path. Early on, a friend and I roped up with John Harlin II and his partner to cross the Andromeda glacier, each team headed for different routes. We parted ways: Us for the north face, Harlin and his partner for Photo Finish, if I recall. When my buddy and I topped out after an uneventful ascent, we sat in the too-warm sun and looked over at the cornice we had climbed around to get to the summit. We commented on the fracture line and how, one day, it would break there--BOOM! Down it went as we gaped in awe and fear, the slide wiping out almost all of our tracks from the face. Had we been a couple of hours slower/later? Bergshrund meat. Just a week or two later, Harlin's partner died in a fall while climbing unroped on easy terrain on Mt. Robson. Two early data points that said maybe badassery wasn't for me.
Years later, again in the Canadian Rockies, I was hit--not critically--by rock fall while attempting an ascent of Mt. Patterson. That was pretty much it. I shelved that dream and did what I was mostly doing anyway--cragging in the Lower 48, building my career, etc. I had some great days in the mountains, no doubt, and I cherish those memories. I was lucky, as all alpinists must be if they are to survive--even with the best judgement and care.
BAd
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:28am PT
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There is no dark side of climbing......matter of fact, its all dark.....
;)
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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Nov 30, 2017 - 11:18am PT
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Hard to justify a turd-in-a-bag
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 30, 2017 - 11:48am PT
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Ho man Werner! I remember that day well! It wasn’t actually my first visit, but it might have been my last. I sold all my climbing gear having just graduated with my engineering degree, I had a suit and only my climbing shoes, a red swami belt and a chalk bag in my BMW R60/5’s saddlebags. I had just interviewed with Motorola down in San Diego, where I was offered a 2-year contract to help design a box to house the computer for a fighter jet (the idea of spending the next two years designing a box was just too depressing), so I was on my way to Ohio for an interview with Timkin roller bearing, almost equally depressing, but at least sounded a bit more interesting than a box (these were the Reagan years, and though my studies had focused on alternate energy systems, the engineering jobs were all in defense). I just stopped in the valley on my way to I-80, for a bit of bouldering, and to gaze at the big stones one last time.
Your LeMans was low on brake fluid, and your car was slowly rolling backwards in the camp 4 lot, despite your jamming on the brake pedal. I helped to stop the car, and then we bled your brakes and gave it a few tests. We also had an interesting discussion of Bendix drives, then I recall thinking about heading back to Camp to pack up and head out, as my interview was in a couple weeks, and I was kind of looking forward to a Prissig style motorcycle tour of the country.
Then you asked about climbing! Stoked, especially as I had no gear of my own. Your car at the time didn’t have a front seat for the passenger, so I was sitting on the steel frame as we drove down along the Merced to the Cookie. All a bit surreal. At the end of the day, you mentioned a recent vacancy on the rescue team, and I headed right over to talk with John Dill, and moved my tent into rescue site that very next day, where I stayed for the next 3 years! Awesome time. Thank you again, my friend.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 30, 2017 - 03:20pm PT
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Thanks for sharing the stories, you guys.
Tarbuster's photos from
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=655407&tn=80
I guess, in a way this is even on topic. The good days can be so darn joyful that you don't want to stop. You try to stay safe enough so that you can keep doing it. From there, it's a value judgement about how you weigh your rough estimate the small daily (or climb-specific) and cumulative probability of injury/death and the pain it could cause to yourself and others against the fun of it. Neils certainly knew the pain side, and he was old enough to not do hasty risk assessment. It seems so wrong/ironic that he died climbing, even with his heightened awareness.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 30, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
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Hi Clint, I realize I jumped in off topic, apologies. I don’t have anything to add about the current nature of risk, really, as it is such a personal thing and can’t imagine how people come to grips with it while being under the public eye as everything seems to be these days.
I recall conversations with Croft and Bachar about this very topic, how the nature of a solo changes with a photographer present (Croft seemed to never tell anyone of his intent, let alone organize a photographer, I don’t think anyone knew about his incredible first solo of Astroman until after the fact, whereas Bachar sometimes would let a few close friends know about things he was planning and preparing).
Niels was an amazing climber, yet he didn’t seek or need the public exposure as so many cutting edge climbers today do (the slippery slope of sponsorship in most cases). It boggles my mind how Honnold can do the things he does, with apparent complete independence from the media response. But not all are so zen—there are some examples of climbers who were influenced by the outside pressure of sponsors and public expectations, who perhaps took risk they otherwise would not have, or let the imagined ego affect choices, with sad and fatal consequences. Niels was not one of them, so the risk he undertook isn’t subject to public discussion, in my opinion. The song, “Only the good die young” comes to mind, we used to sing it often back in the day, and the happiness of surviving another adventure made every risk worthwhile. The alternative of avoiding the risk seems incredibly depressing when you can do such things.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 30, 2017 - 05:57pm PT
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I started climbing at 11. It's part of who I am, so I don't have a justification that is ancillary to me. I will always be involved in rock climbing in some way shape or form.
With that said, I'm also risk conscious and understand my limits. I try not to bring any false ego to the crag. I want to touch the edge, but that edge isn't your edge, and isn't Niels edge.
Rappelling and lowering are the most dangerous parts of our way of life. I hate them, but accept them and limit their impact as much as possible.
Not sure that helps, but I think Clink's phrase above is actually quite helpful when pondering rationales and philosophy...
"I personalty recommend thinking deep thoughts and contemplating life while eating a delicious cheeseburger. :)"
The mind-body problem is just a stomach-digestion problem. Feed the stomach and brain has no problem.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
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Thanks for this thread, Velvet. Nice to see climbers (if not all of them) trying to analyze WTF we are or have been doing. Some good thoughts above.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
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This has been a really insightful thread.
Thank you everyone for some great posts . Mental gristle to chew on.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Warbler wrote:
I'm just going to dive right into my sexist role and point out that no male climber has ever, in 50 years of climbing, fretted about this to me personally, or here on ST (impersonally) publicly.
which seems to indicate the lack of awareness of a large subgenre of climbing literature describing the personal reaction of a climber to the death of his partner, and in this literature it is mostly men writing about men.
John Menlove Edwards' story Scenery for a Murder written in 1939 appears in a climbing literature anthology that Warbler probably knows about, "The Games Climbers Play" edited by Ken Wilson.
In a followup anthology, "Mirrors in the Cliffs" edited by Jim Perrin there is a whole chapter's worth of such stories...
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Ski.
Ski when you are old.
The rest will take care of itself.
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