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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 21, 2017 - 11:33am PT
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Jeff Constine has put together a nice video of the new carbon fibre D4 MiniMe:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
I will be building more prototypes of this super lightweight and simple yet useful concept of this instant belay ledge (patent pending). Looking for more product testers to help with the development process who can help pay costs ( $300 and I will cover the shipping from Australia), and provide photos and feedback. Email me at deuce4@bigwalls.net if interested. Comments welcome here as well.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:51am PT
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Dr. Brauner says .....
Order yours TODAY and avoid your kidney transplant that's gonna be needed from getting them crushed from all those years hanging in a harness ......
:-)
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:54am PT
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"Sleeps three comfortably."
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
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That was my my first time setting it up on the rock and I felt like a spaz and it still only took me 45 sec. The thing is super light. I second what Werner says, your kidneys will thank you.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
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Nice work, Batrock. I found that clipping only one side of the two side strap clip-ins when packing it up makes assembly easier, then there are no tangles—just pull it out and let it hang from one of the two side strap clip-ins, it all snaps together, then clip the second side attachment strap. Nice work on seeing immediately which way up! Cheers
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 21, 2017 - 01:03pm PT
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take my money now.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 01:07pm PT
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^Would love help with the development process, send me an email!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
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WiFi? USB ports?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
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^2024 model will be made from chargeable carbon nanotubes with wireless charger. :)
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 21, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
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What is the total weight?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 02:22pm PT
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^weighs less than a litre of water--superlight! Carbon Fibre.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 02:35pm PT
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^no *need* to stand, you can sit, or also curl up and lie down on it as well.
Here is a video of an early prototype:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
...And if like the Fish OneNightStand (not the first mini ledge, by the way), you will love this design. What's not to like?: the D4 is cheaper ($300 vs $399), way lighter (about 5 pounds lighter), smaller packed-size (packs to 20" tall), and about a 1000x easier to set up and put away.
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pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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Nov 21, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
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Here in Russia we use couple jug steps (smthng like Metolius Easy Aiders).
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Nov 21, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
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I got it down to a few seconds.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 22, 2017 - 08:13am PT
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deuce4
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 01:07pm PT
^Would love help with the development process, send me an email!
I know! You're already sending me one! The one in the video to be exact! Exclamation point!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 22, 2017 - 08:24am PT
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...And if like the Fish OneNightStand (not the first mini ledge, by the way), you will love this design. What's not to like?: the D4 is cheaper ($300 vs $399), way lighter (about 5 pounds lighter), smaller packed-size (packs to 20" tall), and about a 1000x easier to set up and put away.
Apple and oranges. Good luck sleeping on the PortaJohn. Looks comfy!
A small piece of plywood would be just as good. Happy Holidays!
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Nov 22, 2017 - 08:50am PT
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Looks cool. I was fantasizing about something like this a few weeks ago. I had a gnarly abscess on my knee for the first week of a climbing trip in the desert. Every hanging belay I ended up bumping it and it HURT. Just not sure how I’d feel about it on the back of my harness next to a pair of shoes, while I’ve got a small pack on, and two ropes and a rack dangling fro me, while looking a section of squeezing and chimneying.
That said, looks ideal for steep multipitch sport climbing applications. I might just buy one from you Deuce.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 22, 2017 - 10:10am PT
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Here in Russia we use couple jug steps (smthng like Metolius Easy Aiders).
Who is this? Is this Yakav Smirnov?
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Late Starter
Social climber
NA
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Nov 22, 2017 - 11:12am PT
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^^^^That plus a fly.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 22, 2017 - 11:18am PT
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Why make it bigger? You guys are just describing a portaledge. This thing weighs less than a liter of water and sets up in 30 seconds or less after you use it a few times. I would take on any wall I did or working a multi pitch free climb with hanging belays. Its not a must have but it's a pretty cool lightweight compact piece of kit that serves a purpose. If the boogie board works for you thats awesome, lets see some pictures.
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Late Starter
Social climber
NA
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Nov 22, 2017 - 11:33am PT
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Cuz, that's what I want! Something similar to the "econo-ledge", or "one-night stand" that's small, AND has a rainfly, and did I mention cheap(er)?
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 22, 2017 - 11:43am PT
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Then don't buy this because this is not anything like you describe and not built for what you describe. Its like walking into a Kia dealer and saying you want a Ford and being upset that they don't sell Fords.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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Relax everyone!
I have made three sizes of the MiniMe, but this carbon one is the lightest and smallest, and actually the most useful really because it is so light and easy to bring even on shorter free climbs.
Actually working right now on a two- person sit ledge for Andy Kirkpatrick. I think this one might be a game changer for mountain routes—full survivability for two people in a compact foldi less than 26” tall and about 3 kilos.
After long discussions with Rob Miller this past summer, realized that packability is one of the key features missing in today’s tools for portable ledges. The D4 is way more packable than any other portaledge ever for its size, which is why Robbie Brown took it even for his speed ascents last Fall.
The MiniMe is super packable because it is small and light, but you could conceivably sleep and survive on it.
But my new design for Andy K will be a new tool that could really make a difference on big mountain routes. Super instant setup too. Will reveal soon.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
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When did ripstop belay seats go out of style? They fit in your pocket. I suppose it was the advent of using portaledges for belaying. Harnesses these days are more like lingerie, so it's tough to hang in them. Sorry, just had to be the first to mention it! I remember even falling asleep in a belay seat. The evolution of the belay seat just ended....out on a limb.
And now I remember Bev Johnson had special pants with slings attached so that her pants became the seat - never saw that in action, though, but you could probably see it and not realize you were seeing it. Anyone got any photos of that?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2017 - 12:22pm PT
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^nice shot, Mike. Wondering why you are belaying perched on that little board when you have a nice cozy ledge right above you!
The MiniMe design was a serendipitous discovery when working on folding systems for my portaledge designs. Of course I realize the simple belay board serves the same purpose for a lot of applications, but thinking that the stability along with the way you can stand and be more mobile offered by the MiniMe might be useful for other applications like folks doing rigging, high angle industrial work, etc. as it is just as light (lighter in fact) and small when packed up as the traditional Bosun’s Chair, yet much bigger when deployed and sets up instantly. Really, I am mostly interested in seeing if there is a market for it.
But really it’s my new ledge designs that are my main focus and this year has been really fun taking a leave from my teaching work and coming up with all these new designs, as I believe we have really been creating the next generation tools for the world’s cutting edge big wall alpinists.
Edit: and Fish, chill out! I’m not here to compete with you, or have to once again defend my work from your snappy barbs. You make fine, solid well-built equipment with good craftsmanship and there will always be a market for your quality gear. I am just interested in pushing the envelope of new design based on being lighter weight, more compact, stronger and more rigid platforms that set up instantly based on the folding and joint systems I have recently invented. And I do plan to keep working on new ideas for modern climbers, as clearly there hasn't been much development in the folding ledge designs in the past 20 years, and it is fun to be able to contribute once again.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Nov 22, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
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Nice and easy to use BTS shots of the day. Batrock(I don't know his real name lol) Edward Bossert Stunt Man and I.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Nov 22, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
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Stunt Man Chad Parker chilling on the Minime D4.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 22, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
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Edit: and Fish, chill out! I’m not here to compete with you, or have to once again defend my work from your snappy barbs.
Then stick to the facts... you are running pretty loose and yappy lately with your latest propaganda. I know you need the stream of continuous peer stroking, but try to keep the foaming to a reality based level. And we know... you invented the world and everything in it...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2017 - 08:45pm PT
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^Just trying to share new tools. People have been pretty stoked, and yes, I appreciate that kind of feedback. And nothing but verifiable engineering facts with the new concepts and ideas, sorry to tell ya.
Edit--and funny you seem to resent the fact that my portaledge inventions have become mainstream, and that I take credit for them. Especially in light of the fact that I have had several interviews about portaledge history, and I always reference the fact that your ledges were the first commercial ledges with rigid corners, a big development at the time. But since then...
Don't really want to be n battle with you. You slam my products all the time, it seems you are getting a little huffy that I compared my latest belay ledge with your 25 year old product, frankly. Peace, bro.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 22, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
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And nothing but verifiable engineering facts with the new concepts and ideas
Laughable, but you knew that... enjoy your world and your back editing
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2017 - 09:00pm PT
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^don't ask me, ask the people who have used my new stuff. Everyone recognises that they are better than anything before--meaning stronger, lighter, more rigid, easier to set up, more compact, etc. All verifiable.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2017 - 09:33pm PT
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I suppose this is the kind of stuff that Fish is upset about. I recognise that it is kind of a boast, but at the same time, I'm amazed that this Diamond Fly, something I came up with and made over 20 years ago, is still the tool of choice for what is likely the most impressive Himalayan big wall this year (especially for a guy who can choose his sponsors for any gear in the world, and actually bought this one from A5). Sorry if offends.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Nov 22, 2017 - 09:33pm PT
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Two dudes BITD hanging out and climbing in California.
One goes on to be a succcessful engineer and design cutting edge products used all over the world. Sells successful company. Goes on to do cutting edge grade 7 FA in the Himalayas. Moves to Australia.
The other moves to meth-ville and sells chalkbags and haulbags while getting fatter and fatter on beer. Eventually only climb short wide things on granitic plutons to disguise lack of fitness and talent. Rips on the successful guy on the Internet forum they both frequent. Acquires a new nickname. The JellyFish.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2017 - 09:43pm PT
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Appreciate the favourable comparison, F, but actually have a deep respect for Fish despite the public thrashing I get from him. We had some good times once... He's probably still more bad ass than one would think.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2017 - 10:04pm PT
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^fully agree.
Hoping this thread can return to normal climber discussion and continue to be an exchange of ideas. There are two more prototypes out there, and hope they can also post some ideas and how it can be used.
Regarding my earlier comment to Batrock about how to prevent tangles as seen in Jeff’s video, best to set it up with only one side strap clipped in. Here is my 4-year old setting it up with this method.
https://instagram.com/p/BZiDNwdFVr0/
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 22, 2017 - 10:05pm PT
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Yeah, that's just how it is... you guys have it all figured out. LOL!
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Nov 23, 2017 - 12:25am PT
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You know what really pisses me off the most?... Is, I was 15 years old when I started ripping off designes from both of your Web sites. And to hear you now act like a bunch of jackasses because you have a screen to protect you!
I built my first haul bag off of your grainy ass photos... and my first portaledge
I would zoom in on your corners.... stole your buckles. Cut seat belts out of the junkyards, studied your stiches .... and that was dial-up on the "paint program"; .....
You two Men are artist and creators of tools that defined me as a child to a man...
And if the two of you can't figure out.... F*#k You! Don't have me watch it fall a part here!
Just dumb
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Nov 23, 2017 - 06:47am PT
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In my three decades I've used both A5 and Fish. Both great....I would be stoked to use a new design.
It weird though how this thread is going. In my industry we share ideas, push others to be more creative, and compliment success. There is nothing worse for someones product then to find out that they are jackasses.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2017 - 11:13am PT
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The NIAD pack was designed by none other than the Supertopian Roy McClanahan, with some input from me about its hauling capabilities. We sold it through A5 as the Nose-in-a-day pack. A nice ballistics pack with integrated haul points. At first A5 was mostly a retail company with a few hardware items like my forged hammer, and the NIAD was one of the unique and useful products we retailed. Later we got into sewing manufacturing to advance the technology directly. Kyle Copeland was the driving force in our earlier sewn designs. It has been a collaborative team effort over the years developing new gear, and we’ve always been open about our innovations.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Nov 23, 2017 - 11:27am PT
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This whole conversation just brings back memories of well spent nights hanging in a butt bag.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2017 - 11:31am PT
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Belay seats! I used to find them suitable, perhaps when I had good core strength. But on my first wall in 20 years last March (Mt. Buffalo with Simon Mentz), I was in agony after a couple hours in one. We actually had both of the standard designs, the two-point like the one shown above, and the Chouinard 3-point system which had a strap come under the crotch. I couldn’t get comfortable in either of them. One of my motivations to design a new lightweight belay platform, I suppose!
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 23, 2017 - 11:41am PT
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I still have my Buttermilk Mountain Works belay seat and BMW haulbag.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 23, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
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I'll tell you what ....
No other ledge "flags" like a D4.
The rounded corners are brilliant, and allow the ledge - which is attached to the haul line above the load like a flag - to pass around roofs and other obstructions with ease.
This allows you to keep the ledge fully deployed for the entire wall, allowing for comfortable belays in the sun to drink your beer, and watch your partner suffer above you on lead.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2017 - 12:56pm PT
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^Pete doesn’t need a belay seat as he just uses his whole ledge every belay.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Nov 23, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
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Haters gonna hate
Plus it matches my top
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
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^the best part of the story is how you and Pete got bold and hacked the ledge to a whole different configuration. For a while there, I thought Pete was going to get cold feet. Thanks also to the ever-mellow and super-cool John Verbeck for instrumental help with the D4 prototype process!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2017 - 10:26pm PT
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Hi Jim, I am thinking that because future models will weigh just over a pound, and the way it folds relatively flat and would fit in the pack against the back not taking much room (and stiffening the pack) it might be something ultra light purist might consider. I think one could sleep in it sitting up and legs curled up on the ledge—probably better than a single point hammock, anyway.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Nov 24, 2017 - 09:01am PT
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Bigwalls LOL!
Can you geniuses design a better suspension system for my pads please?
Kthxbye.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Nov 24, 2017 - 10:35pm PT
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Could this design be expanded to the size of a single portaledge?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2017 - 11:22pm PT
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Lambone, yes, I have made a couple versions of single ledges using this concept, but have something even better up my sleeve that I am working on now. Based on some good feedback from Rob Miller, I might work on a 1.5 person ledge with some slick new tricks.
Compact folding, easy to setup, and light are the focus parameters.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2017 - 11:31pm PT
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another happy MiniMe tester in the Fisher Towers.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2017 - 08:34pm PT
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Another test Report:
The Mini-Me Ledge – a test report by Anna-Veronique Lhoest
I took the D4 MiniMe ledge on a two-day ascent of Ozymandias Direct at Mount Buffalo.
What I liked about the ledge:
Unfolding the ledge was almost ridiculously easy. After taking it out of the bag, you can just shake it a bit and the straps and tubes pull themselves into place. The single point anchoring system and the buckles on the straps were very easy to use – no need for an instruction manual for this one!
The amount of comfort for the tradeoff in weight and time used for setup and breakdown was totally worth it. I would definitely want to take it on future bigwalls –it was great to be able to sit down and relax.
The bag for the mini-me was good, not too small. Nothing worse than trying to stuff something into a stuffsack that is way too small, especially when hanging on a wall trying not to drop anything. I appreciated having a bag that fit the mini-me easily.
Things that could possibly be improved / ideas / suggestions:
There was a wee bit of initial confusion about which side of the fabric went up. I thought it was the side from which the straps would wrap around the supporting bars then lead up to the anchor point, as it seemed to add more stability. Rose thought it was the other way round. I set it up the way I deemed best, figuring that if it wouldn't work for whatever reason, it would provide valuable feedback. Maybe some sort of “this way up” sign would be helpful?
Packing the ledge up was slightly less easy than the setup, because the line inside of the bars was quite tight. While that made setting up very easy, it was a bit harder to pull the bars apart. Nonetheless that improved with practice as I figured out the most efficient way to fold the ledge up.
Final Thoughts:
The D4 MiniMe ledge was amazing. It was really worth the small amount of extra weight. I really appreciated it on the hanging belays.
PS: Andy gave me your laminated, handwritten topo of Ozymandias. It was a great help, as the Mount Buffalo guidebook topo was extremely confusing on pitch 7 (through the roof) and with your topo we had no problem figuring out where to go. It also helped on the second last pitch, where I simply linked into the chimney and kept going to the plaque as you described. Otherwise I would've stopped at the double bolt belay and we would have added another belay and wasted time and probably would not have topped out before dark. Much appreciated.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2018 - 04:23pm PT
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^ not yet, but perhaps there will be, when more people come to understand the total revolution of hanging bivouac technology that is collaboratively taking place. The proof will be in the pudding, that is, the wilder adventures that will be achieveable with lighter and more compact weatherproof technology than ever before. It’s about making the possible more visible via better tools...
It’s just starting...
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