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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 20, 2017 - 05:04pm PT
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As I was standing at the base of Serenity Crack yesterday I noticed a new '1st' bolt on Maxine's Wall. I always felt the crux of the first pitch was the tenuous friction and edging 15' up to the first bolt. It appears some weak-minded putz felt compelled to add a bolt 6' lower. Kind of surprised this same person didn't add bolts to the third class approach moves.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 20, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
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I placed it a couple of weeks ago.
My partner told me that back in the 70s, there used to be a fixed pin before the first bolt.
You can see the pin scar at the overlap there.
It looks like some rock broke off at the pin scar, as it's very shallow there now and you can't place clean gear there.
It used to be an aid climb, after all.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 20, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
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Oh no.....grab a camp chair and get your place in line!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 20, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
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Almost centered, too.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 20, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
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Popcorn time. With brewers yeast, of course.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Nov 20, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
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Good call Clint,
When ever I question first ascent stuff you are the one I ask.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 20, 2017 - 08:15pm PT
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This could be good. Not the bolt.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Nov 20, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
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Wasn't there a bolt war on the first pitch of Serenity? Did it get resolved?
Odd if another one starts nearby.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 20, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
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I have a 10 foot 1 inch pole for sale.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Nov 20, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
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My partner told me that back in the 70s, there used to be a fixed pin before the first bolt.
I remember the fixed pin back in 1973 when I led Maxime's Wall. Probably my first 5.10a lead.
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ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
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Nov 20, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
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so much anticipation
but only silence...
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2017 - 09:35pm PT
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Clint. I'm saddened at your bolt addition to this route. I doubt incredibly that there was a fixed pin below the first bolt. There's no crack before the two flakes where there currently reside two ancient angles. The aid climbing below the first original bolt consisted of hooks (a couple of old shallow drilled holes can be seen).
I first did this pitch back in 1980. Definitely no pin below the first bolt then. Think about how many folk braved the initial 15' of friction in the past 37 years that I can attest no fixed pin before you added a stainless steel admission of defeat. I know we're not debating anything earhshatteringly important but I thought the climbing community at least agreed that we shouldn't add new bolts to existing routes without the first ascent's agreement. You didn't replace a fixed pin. There hasn't been one there for about forty years (if there ever was one).
I'm glad that we have a forum in which to discuss these matters. I want to make sure my voice is heard. When it comes to bolting, less is usually more.
Clint, I've never removed a bolt before, but if I decided to remove this one what would be the best way to do so to minimize impact to the rock?
Thanks.
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ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
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Nov 20, 2017 - 10:38pm PT
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Nov 20, 2017 - 10:51pm PT
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If it's true that there hasn't been a piton there in 40 years, then there doesn't need to be a bolt now. If there was a piton which has recently gone missing due to rock failure then a bolt maybe makes sense. It's been several years since I climbed it and I don't remember what the deal was.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:18am PT
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I doubt incredibly that there was a fixed pin below the first bolt. There's no crack before the two flakes where there currently reside two ancient angles. The aid climbing below the first original bolt consisted of hooks (a couple of old shallow drilled holes can be seen). I have seen those shallow drilled holes.
As I recall, they are near the original first bolt?
I think the original first bolt may have been placed by standing in a short sling ("hero loop") on the now-missing fixed pin.
(photo on MountainProject - flake with pin scar is under rope)
If you get back there and look more closely, the pin scar is very clear.
It's under a flake, similarly shaped to the upper 2 with fixed pins.
It seems fairly clear that the flake broke off at some point after repeated piton placement and removal, leaving a closed seam with a small pin scar.
If the above doesn't help, just listen to Bruce and John who were there before the first time you did it and clipped the fixed pin.
It's a replacement (bolt for fixed pin), even though there was a gap of about 40 years. I could have reduced the gap to maybe 7 years, but I didn't know until recently that there used to be a fixed pin there.
If it's true that there hasn't been a piton there in 40 years, then there doesn't need to be a bolt now. I mostly agree with this - the idea that "people have been doing it for years without; why change it [back]?" I think the main reason this sounds good is that there is a "shared experience" from those 40 years, where what I had to do was similar to other people and how I climbed it the last time. Although when I think back on it, things were slightly different each time.
My first time on it was in a September heat wave, late 1970s. My partner (Chris Kaiser) made it to the bolt, but his fingers were getting sizzled on the hot rock, so he was desperate to clip it. He grabbed a biner from the rack, but it didn't fit through the homemade hanger! His fingers were sweating and he was sketched, so he grabbed the hanger. But it was super hot from the sun, so it made his fingers sweat even more! As his fingers started sliding down the hanger, he grabbed it with his other hand, but it slid slowly down as well. I desperately scanned the base for anything that might help, and I saw an old 1/2" tieoff loop. I tossed it up to him and he caught it, threaded it through, clipped, and lowered off. But now that he had clipped the bolt, the risk was gone, so I wanted to lead it. I set off in the state of the art shoes at the time (EBs). Past the 2 fixed pins, placed a #7 hex in the flake, and I used a wired nut to cinch on the upper 2 hangerless 1/4" bolts. I was so psyched to climb (and mostly lead) a Yosemite 5.10, even though it was well known as a very well protected one, once you got to the first bolt.
When I look back, each time was a little different, though.
Next time I was climbing in Fire's, which had sticky rubber and made the whole thing about 5.9. And I used chalk then also.
Later times, I placed a #3 Friend in the upper flake.
Even later, the slab moves got more polished and it got harder again.
Eventually the bolts got replaced with 3/8", even the hangerless ones in the upper part where it's not that hard (maybe 5.7).
Probably none of these differences are as big as having fixed pro before the original first bolt. It's true that it's not really "needed", but people used to clip fixed pro there in the 70s, and someone felt it was useful enough at the time to leave a pin fixed there.
For me the question was more like:
"People have done it without, but people have also done it with - is there value in restoring it to the 70s state (as close as feasible)?"
I knew some people might be bummed because it does not have the same runout to the first bolt. (If it helps, you still have to get your feet above the lowest bolt to reach the old first one, so you still have to make a committment).
To me, the climb was always known as being about the best protected 5.10a in the Valley. It seemed like nobody was doing it anymore because of the runout to the first bolt. So I thought restoring the lowest fixed pro from the 70s would have some value, larger than the partial loss of shared experiences, plus the 25 minutes it took for me to drill and place it.
As for the 40 year gap, it could have been shorter if people knew the fixed pin used to be there, and if they cared. At the time, nobody was really even replacing bolts....
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 21, 2017 - 05:44am PT
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This idea that people should continue to use worse and worse FPs for pro and anchors that are loosening over time over the decades is nonsense. The ones still there in Maxines are 30-40 years old...its a joke.
This begs the question of replacing the 2 existing fixed pins with new pins if it is possible to get good placements, or replacing with bolts if not.
What about this reasoning on formerly pin protected sections(some cruxes) of routes such as the East Buttres of El Capitan, Third Pillar of Dana, ...?
IMO, fixed pins on TPOD are fine but no bolts, on EBEC a bolt is fine.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:47am PT
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I first climbed it in ‘75(?) with Ken Yager, and there was def a pun there
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:48am PT
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I'm with K-tut on this. Fixed gear is fixed gear. Maybe on the FA place the pin, but go back or give the OK for someone else to put in a bolt. I hadn't heard that story about DNB, a route I've done twice. Damn.
BAd
Oy. Found the story of the DNB accident. It appears no fixed gear was part of the anchor, however.
There was no evidence that bolts or other fixed protection were involved in the anchor.
Protection Pulled Out—Fall on Rock, California, Yosemite Valley, Middle Cathedral Rock
Accident Reports
Accident Year:
Publication Year: 2002
PROTECTION PULLED OUT-FALL ON ROCK
California, Yosemite Valley, Middle Cathedral Rock
On July 12th at 1:00 p.m., a fisherman in Yosemite Valley reported seeing two climbers fall from high on Middle Cathedral Rock. After speaking with this witness, I hiked up to the base of the wall, where I found the bodies of Myra Eldridge of Boulder, CO, and Thomas Dunwiddie (ages unknown) of Denver, CO, just east of the Direct North Buttress route.
No one else witnessed the accident. Its exact cause will never be known, but certain things are clear from the condition of the climbers’ equipment at the time they were found.
The team was leading with two 9mm ropes, and both climbers were properly tied to both ropes. Dunwiddie was equipped as leader, with each of his two ropes passing through Eldridges’s belay device (an ATC). About 25 feet of each lead rope separated the two climbers; no lead protection was found on either rope.
Their anchor—which appears to have pulled in its entirety during the accident—consisted of the following. One ?-inch Alien and one #4 Black Diamond Stopper were clove-hitched together to one of the lead ropes approximately three feet from Eldridge’s tie-in point. Two double-stem Camalots, .5 and .75, were each independently clove-hitched about a foot and a half apart on the other lead rope with 15 inches separating the lower piece from Eldridge’s tie-in point. There was no evidence that bolts or other fixed protection were involved in the anchor.
All of the anchor pieces were severely damaged, though it is impossible to know whether that damage occurred when they were pulled out or during the fall and final impact. Nevertheless, the two Camalots were each bent in a similar way suggestive of a severe downward force after being placed in a vertical crack.
A loose quick-draw and a few carabiners were also found at the base. Their original purpose could not be determined, and they may have simply unclipped from the falling climbers—a common occurrence.
Analysis
Both Dunwiddie and Eldridge were skilled climbers, and in the days prior to their deaths they had completed a number of challenging free and aid routes in the Valley. Based on the location of the bodies, and on a topo of the Direct North Buttress found in their possession, they were probably on the DNB at the time of their accident. Rated at 5.10c and known for both its length and route finding difficulty, the DNB includes several sections of “run out” climbing and loose rock.
What can we learn? This accident hits close to home for most climbers because the party involved was very experienced with difficult climbing and familiar with Valley rock—as have been at least a third of Yosemite fatalities, historically. Other factors, such as rock fall from above, may have been involved, but the prime suspects are basic anchor and leading concepts that all of us are often tempted to ignore: avoiding anchors in suspect rock, sharing the load to an adequate degree, and stuffing in that first (and second) lead piece right off the belay. If you can’t meet these criteria, continue on with the realization that your survival may depend only on your climbing skill and on the quality of the next handhold. At least five other cases of complete anchor failure (protection pulling out—not breaking) have occurred in the Park in the last 30 years. (Source: Lincoln Else, Climbing Ranger, Yosemite National Park)
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:57am PT
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Clint knows Yosemite history really well.
Me I don't know sh!t, I just climbed there.
He's an incredibly responsible person with bolts, pins, nuts, and cams.
If he says bolt needs here then bolt will be there.
I did Maxines wall in those dumb RR blue boots a few times in 71.
Scary .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:21am PT
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Lots of commentary for a mediocre climb at best. Like Werner, I would defer to Clint in this case. Kingtut says there should be two big juicy bolts where the anchors are questionable. Hmmmm....slippery slope reasoning when you seperate the in situ anchors from in situ pro.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:36am PT
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I climbed the DNB shortly after the tragedy described above. I brought a selection of pins and a hammer with me to test fixed pins or possibly replace key fixed pins that have fallen out (with no clean pro nearby). When I got to the belay where I suspect the couple fell, I hammered in 2 pins. The obvious and available belay crack turned out to be somewhat expando and I could see how clean pro would have ripped with a factor 2 there. The moves right off the belay were steep and insecure. We left the pins fixed there and finished the climb uneventfully.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:42am PT
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it's never clear what to do
Sure it is, it takes good intelligence according to TIME and CIRCUMSTANCE .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:48am PT
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Most of my multi pitch climbing today is in the Black Canyon where fixed belay anchors are not a problem because they’re aren't any....or at least very, very few. Putting in good belay anchors quickly and efficently seems to be a dying art in this era of comfortized climbs.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 21, 2017 - 09:04am PT
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I simply don't believe in fixed pins for pro on rock climbs. They are time bombs.
+1
People like to reduce the number of bolts so that they can claim a smaller bolt count, even with tactics as silly as fixing pins or clean gear for their lead. And yes, they are time bombs and not a good long term pro option. Most don't like to carry hammers on their free rack to hammer those pins in. A fixed piece is a fixed piece. Bolt is a cheaper, environmentally friendlier and a much better option for making sure the fixed piece is bomber in 30 years.
Personally I support Clint's decision because he is thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasonable. If he does something, usually, the majority in the community would agree. He didn't add a belay station in the middle of the pitch...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 21, 2017 - 09:28am PT
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We see this up here Jim.
Many of the belays on popular routes on Yamnuska are fixed.
I think this is due mostly to local guides. Fixed anchors mean they can safely guide their clients in times of changeable weather and get down if the conditions get hairy.
In all fairness many of the belays needed upgrading because they were shite.
The difference in experience now is these routes are not so committing. I learned to climb there in the 70's and retreat was always difficult and/or sketchy.
Hell my great granfather homesteaded in 1873 when he was 17, great grandmother was 16. We are pussies now
C'est la vie
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 09:29am PT
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Thanks to everyone for very thoughtful and civil replies. It is clear from Clint's photo that there is indeed a flake where a pin existed back in the Ford administration. I was incorrect in disputing this.
I also totally agree with you, Clint, that is in part about a common experience. Since I (and everyone else in the past 37 or so years) have ponied up and done the route with the runout to the first bolt, I feel that psychological crux is an important part of the route. Adding the extra bolt has taken away an important challenge to the pitch in my opinion.
King-tut, I can't give much input for DNB, I'm not brave or good enough to head up there. I will agree that old fixed pins are a danger. Great when new, but growing weaker and more dangerous with passing years.
As to the larger point about replacing fixed pins with bolts when there is no clean pro option, I think it's a largely a good decision. Ironically, the two fixed pins on this pitch are still there (time bombs someone called them in this thread). I think there are lots and lots of fixed pins that would be good to replace with bolts or just get rid of when there is clean pro nearby...the nested angles as the first piece on the fifth pitch of Goodrich Pinnacle right come to mind.
All this being said, my vote is still that in this particular case as no one had needed that piece in nearly four decades, a new bolt was unnecessary. I know the bolt wars are over, but I still feel strongly that where they aren't needed they shouldn't be...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2017 - 09:37am PT
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Another problem with in situ pins is that nobody carries a hammer anymore and they can’t be tested.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 21, 2017 - 10:07am PT
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I think it was Dave Mayville who replaced the two old pins with bolts at the start of the Kamps/Higgins classic "Blanketty Blank" on Tahquitz?
I might have raised an eyebrow for a quick minute, but those downward facing pins were a nightmare over a very nasty ground-fall. The next time I did that climb I totally saw the light.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Nov 21, 2017 - 10:49am PT
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How many of you people carry a hammer? I do, I am a bolt replacer and I pull, reset, and upgrade fixed pins while I am up there replacing bolts. If you saw some of the sh#t I have you would quit clipping it or start carrying a hammer.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:24am PT
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Ethical discussions: the more things change the more they stay the same.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:49am PT
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I have a terrible memory for moves and gear, but I have a fond feeling toward Maxine's Wall (first pitch only). As an occasional weekend warrior with a fitness not comparable to athletes, I had a mental block against breaking into valley 5.10s for a while. I was proud to lead the first pitch of Maxine's Wall and get through the initial run-out. That feeling is probably why I remember the pitch at all. It was a fun day where I swung leads on Serenity & Sons with Karl Baba (he handled the harder pitches). We finished early and I was ready for more, so he belayed me up P1 of Maxine's.
This was about 2005, so I don't know if that was with an intermediary bolt or pins or not. It is a convenient route to kill time if there is a line on Serenity/Sons, so making it relatively safe for high volume use seems like a good idea. There are parts of the valley that people aggregate, and that leaves plenty of areas for sketchy adventure climbing.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:53am PT
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AP, you're so right.
I'm wading in just so far...top of P1.
Back in the Easter Break of '70 (pretty sure it was then) I was in on the first pitch (rated 5.9 at the time) with Mr. Jeff Mathis and Mr. Mike Farrell (he got us on the route, he'd done it). It had been on Mr. Mathis' tick list for the spring season--this was to be his first--for some reason. I had merely accompanied Mr. Mathis to Yosemite for the Break From School, while he had been making plans for living in the valley for several months past.
We were happy as heck to have someone like Mr. Farrell rope-gunning, I'm sure, but I can't remember the order in which we climbed, or even if Mr. Mathis led the pitch. We were assured by Mr. Farrell that we had done the highlight pitch and rapped.
Point here being, I don't recall a fixed pin. No big deal. I didn't have to do the lead. :0)
That's a long time ago, and memory dims with age. Mr. Cummins might have trouble with memories nearly fifty years old, even. I hope he never does, but let's wait and see.
Mr. Cummins, let me profoundly apologize (again) for my fauz paz on Maxine's Wall in the early beginnings of the old Flames thread, where I confused Maxine's Wall with some climb in Pinnacles NP involving Mr. Mathis and Mr. Randy Hamm and possibly myself (my presence on that climb is not documented by photographic proof).
Werner, you did the sucker in RRs!! That's funny!!
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
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Like many of my climbing friends back in 1976 this was our first 5.10 lead. I remember the pin, but more importantly the fact that we had now broken into that mythical grade. Double digits no less!
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
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Decades of ascents w/out the bolt. Should have left that way.
One mans opinion.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:49pm PT
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What the route needs is a good coat of roll on texture-grip to return it to original condition. Light grey for color.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
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I did Maxines Wall back in 1984 and don't remember clipping a fixed pin but if i climbed it today I sure as hell will clip the bolt. Thanks Clint.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 21, 2017 - 01:13pm PT
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As Vitaliy said "He didn't add a belay station in the middle of the pitch..."
or retro bolt on multiple classic bigwalls
or power drill from ladders
or piss off NPS by over-gardening trails and bases
or sh#t on a trail
or sh#t on history
Let's keep tearing down our heroes while the devil has his way
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 01:35pm PT
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1980 ascent of Maxine's Wall at 13 years old. Don't worry. I've learned to tie directly into my harness since...
Thanks again to everyone for the thoughtful and civil replies.
It's interesting how memories can be affected by time.
Clint, you remember the lack of bolt hangers on the last two bolts in the late 70's. I'm confident they were there when I did it in 1980, and that the hangers "disappeared" in the early 80's. My brother, Jeff (FA The Temptest, The Promised Land, Afroman and a few others) was a bit of scoundrel back then and needed some bolt hangers. I'm not sure I'm throwing him under the bus as the statute of limitation of bolt hanger theft has long since passed.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Nov 21, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
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I'm sure I've done that route in the time window being discussed--but at the early end of it, easily 30+ years ago-but, like many, only the first pitch. I have vague memories of thankfully clipping a fixed pin, but themz foggy memories. It was an exciting time, in my early 20's with mates figuring out this climbing thing. I doubt I'll ever do it again, but it was meaningful at the time. I clipped that old bolt on the first pitch of Serenity, too!
BAd
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
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I trust Clint's judgment in this matter completely.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:53pm PT
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Another voice for Clint's stewardship.
It used to be a lot of people's first 5.10 testpiece face climb back in the day, but there's really no such thing as a 5.10- testpiece these days, as people are often climbing that hard after a few days in the gym.
Seems only fair that with all the tens of thousands of new bolts in Yosemite on harder routes, that there are more easier classic routes with decent pro, especially if there used to be a fixed piece there. There's still routes off the beaten track with some boldness if that's what folks are after (not that I ever recall Maxine's as being "bold"). One thing that might be true, that even with sticky rubber, it's probably harder now than then due to the fact that 100,000 people have climbed that route and it's probably a lot more slick.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 21, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
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+1 for Clint's efforts at sustainable restoration.
As for 40 years of shared experience, I'm going to say no. Just because 40 years of people couldn't replicate the first ascentionist's intentions does not modify the FA principle deferring to the first ascentionists wrt decisions on where fixed protection is placed.
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TLP
climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 10:07pm PT
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I've been looking at this since yesterday when the OP appeared, thinking, well I have no opinion whatsoever since I've never done the climb. But the rock in the photos looked oddly familiar. After a lot of additional posts, it hit me, yes I have done this climb! In around 1986 or 87; led it, in fact. But I haven't the slightest memory of being sketched, or what the pro was, or anything at all except it was certainly fun enough to uncoil the rope and climb it. While there was probably a specific reason for not recalling (no comment) I'm impressed that others have such clear memories of what the pro was, almost 10 years further in the misty past. Dang.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:28pm PT
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^^ Yeah.
But to missquote Garcia + Hunter..."all the climbs combined, they melt into a dream..."
I will say that I appreciate Clint's very thoughtful approach to bolting and sharing that process with us. And, too for the time and energy given.
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:49pm PT
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I would tend to err in favor of clint generally
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 22, 2017 - 03:50am PT
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Ray Run Out, you don't know what you're talking about when you are talking about the Flames thread, obviously, because there ARE no rules.
"They're tryin' to crucify me..."
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Nov 22, 2017 - 11:59am PT
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hard one to call here. are the first ascent party still around to ask. I got friends on either side of this one, and it is just one bolt. no reason to get the panties bunched up. i guess i would go with
not adding the bolt, because it had been that way for so long. So the pin placement blew out. if people have been dealing with it for 40 years, then let people keep dealing with it that way.
and just because the route is glassier and harder than before is no reason to go pussyfying a climb. suck it up or move on. ss
it is generally a good idea to go fixing up anchors, but adding bolts onto pitches is generally bad.
and sometimes leaving fixed pins on free pitches retains the character of the climb...case in point America's Cup, where climbing the crux above carrigan's pin is part of the excitement Replacing the pin with a bolt in this case lessens the experience.
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Nov 22, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
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what if woot man did this?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 22, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
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This was one of my first leads outta the gym and I was styling it pretty well for a newb...
-till I fell right before the first bolt!
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Nov 22, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
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Did this back in 1985 w Jordy.
Sorry, but after climbing in Dresden last summer I must say this crap should stop clint. Man up or go home.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Nov 22, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
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Rock climbing is flat out dangerous. When you step off the ground you are on your own. If folks have been doing a certain climb without a bolt for 40 + years, it’s probably ok the way it is. For the record I first did this in 1980. Big deal. Now puke.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2017 - 07:50pm PT
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When you step off the ground you are on your own.
No, you are NOT, and have never been and nor never will be EVER!
There is always protection.
Even the free soloist has it.
Whether one lives or dies in that moment that protection is always there for everyone.
There is no such thing as one life only ........
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 22, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
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I did it late-70s in EBs. I'm thinking that the shoes today are better than a replacement for the missing fixed pin. Or, treat it like a highball to the first bolt.
But I don't have a chisel to grind on the subject. Accessibility seems to matter more than boldness these days. Nobody should get hurt climbing.
Woot!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Does anyone have contact info for Les Wilson or Al Macdonald?
Thanks, Tony
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 16, 2018 - 10:21am PT
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This is an old topic but some data points in my mind are:
Yes, it's plain that there was probably a fixed pin down low but now the rock broke where it was.
The first bolt has been replaced and unfortunately was replaced a bit higher than the original placement, requiring another cruxy move to clip it.
The rest of that pitch is well protected so I'm kinda ok with having a decently protected fun slab climb in that location for people waiting for serenity to play with, particularly since it was put up with good pro.
Do the rest of Maxine's wall if you want some excitement. It's definitely a strange trip
Peace
Karl
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Feb 16, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
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If I led it for my first 5.10a lead in 1973, you can bet your life Maxine's Wall wasn't very hard or bold, even back then. Sounds as though old popular Yo free routes are entering what the art critics call, the "Mannerist" phase. A step beyond the Baroque.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 16, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
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^^^ Brilliant comment, imo.
Thank you, Bruce.
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labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
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Feb 16, 2018 - 02:23pm PT
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If you don't need or want the bolt..... Just keep on going without clipping it!!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 16, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
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^^^ Where do you see me telling people how to climb?
Or, are you just drunk again, which seems to always kick you into the mode of "fvck with Richard" whenever you find an opportunity?
BTW, it's all useless, including your own comments.
I happened to think that Bruce's were insightful and subtle. Didn't you?
Oh, right. Drunk again, so unable to detect subtlety. Sorry.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Feb 16, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
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It seems my theory of a replacement 40 years after the pin disappeared was not such a popular idea. :-)
The theory is fine, you were just unfortunate to have it be a pitch that someone prized as their “back when they were bold” high water mark.
The grade probably didn’t help either, the people who cut their teeth on that likely prized “5.10” as a significant grade in a way later generations do not.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 16, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
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I am suggesting that your own perspective is an outlying one which is a perfectly reasonable observation, imo
Oh, BS. Not one iota of how you deal with me is "perfectly reasonable." From the first exchange you ever had with me, you were bringing in completely irrelevant ways to attack me personally. At this point, I know your game, and I have zero respect for you as a person and for your tactics. This most recent example is no different.
Show me where in this thread I have "told people how to climb." I have done nothing more than MANY others here: Expressed a perspective about retrobolting that is shared by the apparent majority of people on this very thread.
This particular bolt might well be okay, although that clearly remains an open question in the minds of at least a few here. But the general principle that retrobolting should be avoided is far from "an outlying one," as it is a perspective held by the vast majority of climbers over the vast span of climbing. Clint himself has expressed that perspective on this very thread.
The retrobolting trend has gotten some "credible traction" among a minority on this forum only fairly recently, and it remains an "outlying" perspective both here and in the span of climbing history. If you can equate retrobolting with any FA tactics, then yours is the outlying perspective. If you can equate (as you just have) any retrobolting of classic Yosemite climbs with an FA on a mud wall in the middle of the desert, then you simply further reveal the obvious fact: You look for ways to bag on me personally, even when they are transparently irrelevant.
As I said upthread, I have no particular "chisel to grind" regarding this one particular bolt. But I do decry the retrobolting TREND in general, and my perspective of decrying that trend is not "outlying."
IMO, and climbing history agrees, FAs should be left in as close to their original character as possible, as a general rule. That's a GENERAL rule. There are, of course, exceptions, and this particular bolt seems like it probably is one. But the overarching point remains: Dumbing down existing routes to make them "more accessible" or "safer" by changing the character of the FA steals from the climbing community.
There exist routes with just about every imaginable character and risk-factor. So, it's not like somebody wanting to avoid risk has no good options. But bolder routes are fewer and farther between, and those should be left as they are, so that people wanting to test themselves in that manner can do so. From the discussion here, it seems that the character of this route is pretty much untouched. I'll repeat, I have no strong opinion about this one bolt. Clearly Clint is not Woot Boy (I guess Woot Boy is Woohoo Boy now).
But for most people posting here, the thread is not about this one bolt as much as the thread is also a vehicle to discuss where in the spectrum of "route maintenance" a retrobolt does change the character of a route enough to have stolen something from the climbing community.
You can't seem to grasp that point nor perspective, but this thread is not a good vehicle for you to unload a bit more of your venom toward me personally. Lord knows that I have plenty of people that hate me personally. Why don't you start a "Dis On Madbolter" thread of your own, where you can focus on spewing your shite? You'll undoubtedly generate a thousand posts of so there, which I'm sure will be very satisfying for you. You'll excuse me if I fail to attend.
However, on THIS thread, there's a worthy topic, I'd prefer to stay on it, and I may occasionally pop on to note a tidbit of wisdom, like I did with Bruce's.
If you don't share my or other's perspective, you of course have every right to chime in. But don't even try to float the BS that your observations regarding me personally are "perfectly reasonable." I don't know where your hard-on for me originated, maybe you're an SG subman, but you haven't done ONE of my routes, and you know NOTHING of substance about my life, like my academic career, which you regularly cite. So, your personal attacks are neither appropriate nor reasonable.
Trying to keep this even remotely on topic, since you mentioned it, maybe try to struggle your way up Line in the Sand and then see how "reasonable" your recent statement is after that.
Meanwhile, to my mind retrobolting is, in general, a plague in the climbing community, imo. And I'll decry it in threads that are substantially about that topic, because I do believe that, in general, retrobolting steals something of significant value from the climbing community.
Edit: Apparently, per Clint's post just upthread, the bolt has been erased. For the record, Clint, I don't consider that a rebuke of you personally. As you know, opinions vary. What you did and why sure seems reasonable to me, and, even though I dislike retrobolting in general, I wouldn't have singled this bolt out as an example of retrobolting's dark side.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 17, 2018 - 12:10am PT
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Today of all days, this one of Bridwell's passing, we should remember its about PEOPLE first and climbing second.
Peace
Peace indeed, and thank you for your words. Very gracious of you.
Climbing is all contrived, really. It's the game we play and the reasons we play it that make us the PEOPLE that we are.
In honor of the Bird, whose name I'm honestly not worthy to mention since his passing, I'll just say that I sincerely hope that he found all that he was seeking, and I most deeply hope that his family finds peace in this time of loss.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Feb 17, 2018 - 02:17pm PT
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Holy wall of Text Batman!
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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Hey, Trashman. Hope life is treating you well. Regarding my ethical decision to remove Clint's bolt, it wasn't due to it being my high water marker of boldness.
I certainly am a very average climber. No special abilities stored in this body or mind. In fact, when walking past Swan Slab I have to quell the urge to yell at the climbers in a Salieri-like manner, "Mediocrity, I absolve you!"
...but a 15' 10a slab isn't quite the pinnacle of my career nor is it the reason why I am against retrobolting. I've previously made my argument for this particular bolt and extraneous bolting in general so I won't belabor the point here.
Since the high water mark of my career has been brought up it made me contemplate what is/was my high water mark.
Hmmmmm. For free climbing it's probably Quicksilver as a young teenager. Super runout 5.9 on squeaky holds. It didn't help matters that Chopin's Funeral March was being played on the car stereo on the drive from Camp Four to the route. As well, a woman had broken her hip on the route the week before I headed up.
For aid climbing it's probably the last pitch of the Dorn Direct where it meets up with the Shield. This was only the 13th ascent of the route in 1990. After penduluming off of a fixed RURP, I encountered a refrigerator-sized loose block somehow stuck in a corner. Trying to aid past it was impossible as cams kept moving the block till the cam maxed out and fell out of the crack. I searched the wall hoping that someone had drilled a Bat hook hole to bypass the block. But in the end I had to grab both sides of the block and do a couple of rather frightening lieback moves to get past the block and begin aiding again. The aiding above was A3/A4 arrows driven straight up going in maybe 1/2". The pins kept sticking so I kept going, the bolts below the Shield roof drawing me like a magnet. Finally arriving I watched my brother clean the pitch. He zippered the final six pins as they traversed to the belay. He ended up dangling 20' below me, spinning in space laughing.
But those are distant memories. More recently, at age 48 I did West Face of El Cap, 13 hours car to car... reasonable pace for an average old man. And I was lucky enough to have the privilege of dangling from El Cap for four days last summer, completing my sixth El Cap route at the age of 50.
I'm hoping to get number seven this year on the Aquarian Wall in homage to Bridwell.
I wish all my brothers and sisters on Supertopo a wonderful weekend. It's okay to argue and disagree. But let's make sure to make time to get outside and enjoy the time we have in the hills. Have lots of fun and be as average or as bold as you want to be.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Feb 24, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
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It's okay to argue and disagree.
(As long as I get to decide the route status in the end)
Sorry, clipping a bolt on the way up and pulling it on the way down is as weak as it gets.
Kingtut is right, you “restored” the route to a state that only existed for a limited period of time, your interpretation is totally arbitrary, here’s hoping someone fixes your mistake.
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2018 - 03:36pm PT
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I just want to preserve the rock and preserve the challenge. We shouldn't desecrate the rock with hammer and drill unless it's for very good reason. Clint and John gave theirs and did damage to the rock in the name of safety. I gave my reason and removed the bolt. If it means that much to you go up, drill another hole into the beautiful rock and leave your piece of metal behind. We can keep going back and forth till the park service forbids bolting altogether. This would be unfortunate in some ways but the granite walls wouldn't grieve the lack of drilling.
We are all from the same tribe. We all find great meaning in our adventures in the mountains. It is okay for us to disagree. I've learned from my initial insensitive post and am focusing on how amazing and awesome the posters on Supertopo are.
I'm going to drive all night tonight in order to see the sunrise in Jtree tomorrow morning...such a magical place. hope everyone here has as much fun tomorrow as I plan to.
Peace.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Feb 24, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
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I just want to preserve the rock and preserve the challenge
Nope, those “A3/A4 arrows” are doing more damage to both than any single bolt. You want to preserve your version of both which appears to begin and end where you arbitrarily decide.
I don’t care much about the climb in question, found it it to be a pretty forgettable slab pitch the one time I did it. I do get tired of sanctimonious climbers setting standards for others that they fail to live up to.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Feb 24, 2018 - 04:16pm PT
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too much fame for one chopped bolt .
First wrote two page shittiest poem ever, and now self autobiography
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Feb 24, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
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Wow all this over a 1962 ascent!
Seems like a dumb f*#king move to have removed the recent bolt and a rather obscene statement of rationalization.
Wilson and MacDonald are probably laughing away at this entire fiasco.
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ElGreco
Mountain climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 08:28am PT
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Clint, thank you for all the thoughtful, hard work you have done around the Valley to establish safe and user-friendly rappel routes that help both those descending and those still on the climbing routes.
How sacrilegious of you though that you added a safe bolt right next to the biggest collection of pin scars on the planet, and which happened to coincide with an FA fixed piece, because it ruined the memory and sense of idealism of someone who cut their teeth on the dizzying grade of 5.10 decades ago. I am relieved to hear that justice has been served and that the world is still a moral place, even though the hordes waiting to get on Serenity now will never probably never get to achieve real manhood and experience the exciting slab that will just tantalizingly gaze at them while they twiddle their thumbs.
Take courage though. You would be a hero down in Argentina, and you should consider moving there now that your ego is bruised from the keepers of high moral standards. As for me, I just scored a sponsorship from DeWalt and permission from the Park Service to run an electricity line from the Ahwahnee, so I am running a bolt ladder all the way to the rim. Choppers, I will rebolt until your chisels and ice tools are worn down to stubs. Hell, I might do the same on Royal Arches next door to give people a chance to overtake slow parties.
Peace.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Nov 19, 2018 - 09:17am PT
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Geez, give Clint a break. He is the second poster in this thread right after the OP so he is clearly not hiding his actions. And he hasn't tried to defend what he did by starting another bolt war.
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ElGreco
Mountain climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:17am PT
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In case it got buried in the sarcasm, I was deriding the OP's self-centered and pedantic moralism.
Clint's work on routes such as Serenity-Sons and East Buttress of Middle Cathedral helps hundreds of climbers each year climb and descend more safely, and I for one am truly grateful. Not to mention old bolt replacement work and stuck gear removal.
With that, I will point y'all back to here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/556158/Clint-Cummins-Appreciation-Thread
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:22am PT
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Some people can't see sarcasm .....
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 19, 2018 - 12:33pm PT
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wow - I'm impressed that anyone can remember details from the 1970s. This was one of my first 10 leads in the Valley in maybe 1975 or 1976. I remember it being very tenuous up to the first bolt and don't remember any fixed gear below that. But I could easily be wrong!
Have never been back. It feels like one of those climbs that would have gotten significantly easier when sticky rubber showed up.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Nov 19, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
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I was not replying to just one response in this thread. There have been a number of replies that treat this incident like some great travesty.
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ElGreco
Mountain climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
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Bruce, yes, I echo your sentiment.
MGuzzy, I don't know dude. Yes, you are correct, there is an extension cord there now and available power but, you see...
Someone run it illegally from a hidden outlet on the exterior walls of the Ahwahnee 40 years ago. 38 years ago, it went missing. Someone must have swiped it for construction work. So dirtbags ever since have come to sleep in the boulders wrapped just in blankets. The advent of modern down sleeping bags has made it even less necessary. If you plug in your electric blanket now, I fear that a swath of dirtbags, or even Chongo himself, will come back to restore their right to a proper shiver bivy and my cord will be no more.
Old man Cesare is not in the best of spirits these days, and is getting on a bit. I really want to finish my compressor route on Maxine's before his time comes, as a tribute and morale booster for him. So I kindly urge you to bring a sheepskin, deer hide, blanket, or a thermos with hot chocolate if you must, and endure the night without plugging in.
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