Discussion Topic |
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 24, 2017 - 04:05pm PT
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http://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/10-24-2017-fee-changes-proposal.htm
Still open to public comment if you're so inclined.
Selfishly: Doesn't bother me because I can afford it and I always get the pass anyway. Maybe less people to deal with.
Objectively: Might be prohibitive to some people and I think public lands should be there for anyone who wants some time in the outdoors.
Personally: I've worked for and with the park on several occasions and dot no believe they are efficient with their money so I don't think a fee increase should be an option until they use what they have wisely.
Hmmm..... thoughts?
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Oct 24, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
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They're actually officially calling it an entrance fee now? I thought that for some reason they had to call it a "use fee", I figured because the governing statute prohibited entrance fees?
I can afford it, sucks for those who can't.
TE
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 24, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
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The nps wastes so much money on frivolous employees. Very little of their funding actually supports maintenance upkeep.
Does the nps really need interpretation rangers?
How much money has yos spent trying to remove tasty blackberries with cancer causing chemicals?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 24, 2017 - 04:53pm PT
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Nice, but I would have proposed at least $200. $70 is like the gas you have to burn to get from SFO to YOS, anyone can afford that.
Overcrowding is completely destroying these places. Seems like a reasonable, effective and correct way to address the problem.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
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What idiot wouldn't pay the extra five and get the annual pass???...
Foreign tourists...
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dh
climber
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:28pm PT
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Man, the valley was 5 bucks back in the 90s when I was climbing there. I think it was $25 this summer, is that right?
We enjoyed 4 months in New Zealand this year. National parks there have no entrances, no fees, and essentially no rangers. Which was nice. Of course, there, you have to put up with helicopters and planes all over the place.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:38pm PT
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Yosemite, Grand Canyon and Yellowstone rake in a lot of money, 80% of it stays in the park so I do not think they are too short on cash.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
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$70 is reasonable.
$69.99 goes to me and 1 cent goes to Congress.
Muhahahahah :-)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
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let the entitled rich trust funders pay for the infrastructure improvements scam. We already pay for everything else in this country, waste included. If you can't afford to shell out $70 for a day pass, chances are your tax contribution is zero and you shouldn't be entitled to any of the benefits.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
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If you can't afford to shell out $70 for a day pass
actually 70 bucks gets you 7 days. Chances are if you can not afford the 70 bucks you are working for little more than minimum wage so that some Morgan Stanley prick can get rich off your hard labor. It is the trickle down theory. Wall Street pisses on your head and it trickles down.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
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Free if you're on a bike or on foot sounds about right.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:49pm PT
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actually 70 bucks gets you 7 days.
Seems to me then that the pass should be transferable.
If you buy $70 worth of potatoes you can sell $60 worth to your buddy, right?.
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Tan Slacks
climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
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Free if you're on a bike or on foot sounds about right.
Actually the proposal is 30 dollars for bikes and walkers.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 24, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
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Harleys should be charged $1000. I wouldn't let em in at all but that wouldn't be 'fair'.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 24, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
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The 70 dollar fee would only be in effect from May through September
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Oct 24, 2017 - 06:06pm PT
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Pricing people out of those parks is exactly what it will do.
Betcha the annual passes will also at least double in price.
Enjoy the NP's if you can afford it. Sheeesh!
On the surface, it seems counter productive.
It's almost like the trump administration is saying if you want national parks, you have to pay for them.
Oh well, glad I have my senior pass.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 24, 2017 - 06:06pm PT
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Or a half day fee at $5.00...?
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Oct 24, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
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All that is to raise $68 million dollars for maintenance at an array of parks? The government could just not purchase ONE of the lame F35 still not completed boondoggle fighter jets and that would raise between 97 and 123 million dollars, depending on the model not purchased. But no, best to give the money to Lockheed-Martin rather than support access and maintenance to our public lands.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 24, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
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Chances are good yer wrong Google it and weep, bud, the Curry and Pines inhabitants give nothing and take everything - then ruin it. As for the Morgan Stanley pricks, they actually live off the upper middle classes, everyone below is kept around to wipe butt.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 24, 2017 - 06:32pm PT
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NPS should copy Mammoth Mountain and try the "Dynamic pricing " strategy.. Drive 5 hours from So cal. thinking the entrance fee is 70 bucks and when you reach the entrance kiosk the price is $300.00... a clown then jumps out of the booth, honks your nose , and hits you over the head with a giant foam mallet...
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Matt's
climber
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Oct 24, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
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I think that a change in the pricing structure is reasonable, if the goal is to:
(a) discourage use during peak times
(b) adequately fund the park system
The specifics of the funding plan, however, don't make much sense to me:
(a) there is essentially no reason to purchase a day pass anymore, given how close it is in cost to a yearly pass-- unclear how much extra revenue they will actually get.
(b) I imagine that the current administration plans to use a forecasted increase in revenues from the parks to offset a smaller budget for the national parks.
best,
matt
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 24, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
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Off White, yer quoting the Pentagon's New Math Accounting System prices.
The real price is more like 200 MILLION PHUKKING SAMOLIANS PER!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 24, 2017 - 07:15pm PT
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It is “our” park and we pay taxes toward keeping there upkeep. So we should get a little bit of a discount... The typical "discount" after factoring the typical American's "tax contribution" would be the Wall Street prick getting a fat refund at the gate while the rest pay a $700 toll - there's your fug-gin "we pay our taxes and want something back for it" discount.
Go collect a dead blade of grass on your way out as a reminder of how much your piece of "our" park adds up to.
no reason to purchase a day pass anymore Well, it would seem someone has probably figured that one out - most users are probably 1 and done, even if they buy a yearly. They're probably even banking on that extra $10 everyone will shell out just in case there's a second trip - like Comcast goes down for the wknd or something.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Oct 24, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
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You can bet the yearly pass will rise dramatically sooner than later if the day pass goes to $70.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 24, 2017 - 10:53pm PT
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Interesting. ..
It would be extremely unfair to the middle and lower class that have just as much right to enjoy our national parks. On the flip side- its a way to moderate crowding during busy months- albeit a fvcked up one. I predict an Annual pass would likely double in price if this gets implemented.
Senior lifetime pass is $80 now BTW. Still a great value.
It won't fix the money deficit BTW- from what I've observed- "they" (Insert federal agency *here*) - can waste money at an equal rate of any increase of funds. The system is disfunctional in the extreme when it comes to money management.
Ps @ cwillmot- although I agree with part of our post-- I have to put i my $.02 on interpretive hosts since I work with a couple of the best. Interpretive rangers are the front line to people being educated about and respecting a resource . They are often one of the most valuable and memorable parts of a visitor's experience. Without interp rangers- what you are left with is a kiosk to take your money, an office with a couple burnt- out lackeys issuing permits and a concessionaire who can sell you a book if you have any questions
What we need is more interp rangers and less worthless lazy pencil- pushers doing as little as possible while collecting a paycheck. More sensible and sane fund allocation could go a long way too.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Oct 24, 2017 - 11:07pm PT
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The interpretive rangers rule! We camped at Chaco Canyon last week and they did an amazing night sky program. My kids loved it. The NPS does a lot of great work. Congress should give more money to the parks.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 24, 2017 - 11:11pm PT
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"Congress should give more money to the parks."
yup
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 25, 2017 - 05:37am PT
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What we need is more interp rangers and less worthless lazy pencil- pushers doing as little as possible while collecting a paycheck.
The interps are doing zero maintanaince work. The proposed fee increase is to deal with a backlog of deferred maintenance work.
If you want entertainers in a park to parent your kids- then go to Disney
The parks need to get back to maintaining our wilderness lands for future generations to enjoy
We don't need the green dragon doing circles. Especially when the interpretation ranger is so bored they are making things up to tell tourists. Money not so well spent
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 25, 2017 - 05:54am PT
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We all carry an interpretive ranger in our pockets now. It's called "the phone".
I'm OK with user fees. Places without user fees are the places littered with piles of trash and diapers in the creek.
Besides, someone who never visits the parks shouldn't be subsidizing my recreation through their taxes when I'm fully capable of paying for it myself.
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beaner
Social climber
Maine
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Oct 25, 2017 - 06:40am PT
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I live in a park town, Bar Harbor (Acadia)
The T-Shirt and trinket shop owners and SUP rental places are up in arms because they think it will discourage day-trippers. I think they should offer a $20-30 single day entrance pass. People here on vacation will have no problem spending $70 on a 7-day pass, but I don't really think they should charge some dude driving up from Portland to go climbing for an afternoon $70.
Here, locals can buy half price annual passes in December. Doesn't matter much to me, because I get an employee sticker as a SAR volunteer plus I buy the $80 pass for the whole NPS system.
It's getting too crowded here though. Selfishly, maybe this will be a good thing for me.
As far as complaining about the number of interp rangers, I think they do good work. Some of my fondest vacation memories are of taking my young son on ranger-lead hikes or bringing him to ranger presentations at the NPS campgrounds we stayed at. At Acadia, it seems most of the seasonal employees are working trail maintenance or entrance station. Not sure how many seasonal interp or LE rangers they bring in, but it's not really that many.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 25, 2017 - 06:56am PT
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We all carry an interpretive ranger in our pockets now. It's called "the phone".
The money should be spent on cell towers (and occasional back country solar recharging stations) to blanket every square inch of the parks with interpretive information! See the tagged wildlife in real time! SAR will have your exact location should something go wrong!
A taco bar at Olmsted Point would be nice too.
Getting rid of kiosk/ single lane bottle necks at park entrances is what some money should be allocated for.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Oct 25, 2017 - 07:41am PT
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In retrospect, this is part of drumpf's plan to get rid of National Parks.
He will say that since no one shows up to the parks anymore, let's sell them off.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Oct 25, 2017 - 07:49am PT
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Come to the Great Smoky Mountains NP it is free. Most visited in the country...
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klaus
Big Wall climber
Florence & Normandy
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Oct 25, 2017 - 07:53am PT
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I agree with JLP make it at least $200 to get in.
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John M
climber
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Oct 25, 2017 - 07:53am PT
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a smart phone isn't much use if you don't know the questions to ask. Such as why its important to not litter.
I don't drive in LA.. so I don't want my federal tax money spent on roads in LA. Or for that matter my state tax money. Following that, I have never been to north dakota and have no plans to go.. so stop federal roads there. Since you will price me out of the national parks, I don't want money spent on the roads that connect them. I pay road tax like everyone else, so you should do what I say. In fact, lets just only build toll roads. That should make everything Sooooo much better. eye roll. Now we will hear from someone who drives on a toll road and likes it so much better. Never mind they won't understand how they got to that toll road. On public roads. Nor will they understand how public roads make it possible for people to almost survive on minimum wage.
Good grief. some of you people need to be sent to reeducation camps.
signed.. the Decider
Let them eat cake.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Oct 25, 2017 - 08:11am PT
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When I worked for the USFS it irritated me that there was never enough money to do actual work while at the same time there is always plenty of funding for significant office staffs. I recognize that administrative work is an important part of land management but also think the land managing agencies could get back to their roots and require ALL employees to spend at least one day a week in the field doing some type of work that directly benefits the public. Trails, maintenance, visitor assistance, whatever.
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wheatBeer
Social climber
TheBronx
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Oct 25, 2017 - 09:02am PT
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The proposal of the fees is offensive.
Lets make sure that the regular American can not enjoy Americas wonders when the one chance to do it comes along
$70 to get in
$20 a night to camp
Grand Canyon overnight backpacking
$70 to get in
$10 Permit
$8 per person/per night
4 people for 3 nights = $176
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Oct 25, 2017 - 09:21am PT
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70 dollars a car is for a 7 day pass. That's 10 dollars a day....not too bad! If you visited the Parks these last several years in the summer, you've seen the massive lines with 2 hour plus waits to get in. Lines in Yosemite almost making it to Oakhurst!! And then when all the cars with all the people make it inside there are cars parked everywhere and people everywhere tramping through all the meadows and forests with everything that that brings with it. Lots of SARs that cost the parks big money not the lost. I think the big battle here is how much of all that money the budget cut parks get to keep!!
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Oct 25, 2017 - 09:30am PT
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While I am having some sticker shock at the idea, as I had NO idea it cost $25 for the Grand Canyon the first tie I visited(but I got lucky, as I came in on one of the Free days), and the idea that it would almost be triple with this proposed increase.
But one thing I have learned, from seeing the "inside" of what it takes to keep up with costs for an outdoor rec area is that, is that from the outside, one often is clueless as to what is actually being done that requires money to make happen. Everyone has an idea how said monies ought to be spent, or ought NOT to be spent, and that's real easy when you haven't spent any time actually understanding what needs to be done and how much that costs(people seem to be stuck on 1970's costs for goods and services, it seems, which is a fairly COMMON trait in the minds of us as we age(and start to become senile).
I have to wonder if the fee increase is absolutely a way to discourage visitors who haven't much stake in the place, and to reduce the need to do an overall increase for those who DO hold stake(locals who visit often, and inclusive NPS passholders).
Perhpas if they had gone into that. Something like :We can do this proposal A, which targets the infrequent user, or we can make an overall increase to ALL users(many of which might be likely to get around the fees anyway, by car-pooling with friends and doing the "before/after" arrival and departure thing.
We may not think the plan is the best idea and for those who feel that way - don't forget to send in your opinion! I don't think the NPS is monitoring the various places it is being discussed online....
Meanwhile....do I see the potential for a new peer-to-peer entrepreneurial venture? Think AirBnB or HipCamp, but for NPS Peak Season Entry. Passholders register as "hosts" and visitors register as well, visitors. Hosts have a web page on the site where they post what they have to offer, along with the all-important pass. Type of person they are, type of vehicle they will drive, willingness to provide insights for the visitors visit, days available to host, charge for the service.... The Visitor searches by park and days they want to visit, and lists of matching hosts are indexed.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 25, 2017 - 09:42am PT
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Quote Ontheedge:
..."it irritated me that there was never enough money to do actual work while at the same time there is always plenty of funding for significant office staffs. I recognize that administrative work is an important part of land management but also think the land managing agencies could get back to their roots and require ALL employees to spend at least one day a week in the field doing some type of work that directly benefits the public. Trails, maintenance, visitor assistance, whatever."
THAT^^^ is exactly the issue that I observe daily and drives me crazy as well. I can't agree more.
Quote Wilmot: "The interps are doing zero maintanaince work."
Well- it may be an anomaly, but at my location that is totally untrue. We are at a remote location where maintenance crews show up infrequently, so maintenance is often handled by our interp rangers.
I make no debate about the poor maintenance crews being woefully understaffed and underfunded to perform their basic duties let alone make any improvements. It's very sad.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 25, 2017 - 10:03am PT
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If interps are doing maintenance as a result of being assigned to remote locations then it sounds to me as though there is not enough public visitation to justify Their positions. Hiring more maintenance workers qualified to do such work would make more sense.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 25, 2017 - 10:11am PT
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you've seen the massive lines with 2 hour plus waits to get in.
Boy, howdy! I had to wait like FIVE FREAKING MINUTES to get into Jellystone last month!
#fittobetied!
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John M
climber
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Oct 25, 2017 - 10:24am PT
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It seems to me like some people have forgotten the concept that making things better for everyone means that things are better for everyone. They don't seem to realize that when you become niggardly in your dealings with others, that that is the kind of world that you end up with. They want what they want and don't care about others, or actively dislike others, and don't see the correlation between being generous and having a generous life. Its sad to me.
Raising prices so that those who use a place pay for it, and not the tax payer as a whole, ignores all of the benefits of working together to make things better for everyone.
Does the park have problems? Yes. We definitely need to spend more on maintenance. And it would be great to figure out a way to reduce paperwork so that we didn't need so many paper pushers. I would like to see that happen in many areas of life, taxes and health care being two. Especially health insurance. Ugh.. what a mess that is.
I don't know what the solution is because I see so much obstinacy in people, but I do believe that raising the cost of national park entrance fees would lead to pricing people out of the parks, and that isn't the kind of America I want to live in.
I would rather reduce our military spending by 30 percent, rather then raise prices on national parks. A 10 percent cut to the military would easily cover many of the things we see missing in our current life. From fixing roads and schools, to keeping our parks affordable. Imagine the country we could have if we poured 100 billion dollars a year into infrastructure. We would have more decent paying jobs ( i.e. road builders ) and better roads to drive on.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Oct 25, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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I’ve had my senior pass for awhile.
The day before they went up (in August, I think) I went and bought two more just in case I lost mine. Wasn’t going to take any chances!!!
Susan
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 25, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
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If you are trying to tie price to value delivered with that potato analogy, maybe we should take it further and have different prices based on gross vehicle weight and road damage. Should also charge per-person, not per-vehicle, because humans fill up the toilets and trash cans.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Oct 25, 2017 - 01:04pm PT
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This is cloaked and incremental deconstruction of government. Put this in the same category as school choice (vouchers), privatized- military logistical support, private security, toll roads, private concessions etc., etc.
They've done this before- Financially strangle a public entity along with a campaign of demonization to the point of failure. Loss of Public support is soon to follow and the atmosphere is ripe for a well connected Corporation to fill the void.
Does anyone remember Halliburton leaving brand-new trucks with flat tires on the side of the road in Iraq? Are you aware of who paid for that truck? What do you think would happen to a soldier that walked away from a brand new truck on the side of the road with a flat tire?
I'd rather pay an interpretive Ranger then a Halliburton employee getting orders from the CEO who is pimping for that fat annual bonus.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 25, 2017 - 01:07pm PT
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Hey how about they require you to present your tax return at the gate. You pay some percent of your annual income to get in... Actually they'll have us all carrying a chipped card (or sub-cutaneous) with all that info in it anyway soon enough.
edit for bad math :-)
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 25, 2017 - 01:58pm PT
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Not many advantages to getting old, but my $10 lifetime pass to all parks is looking better and better... :)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 25, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
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lol...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 25, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
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You pay some percent of your annual income to get in... That's pretty much how it works now.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Oct 25, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
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Reilly said: Off White, yer quoting the Pentagon's New Math Accounting System prices.
The real price is more like 200 MILLION PHUKKING SAMOLIANS PER!
I thought I did research and that 200 million was the price for the small run testing units, but the actual per plane cost was what I said. I know the Pentagon has been prone to use a price that doesn't include engines and other systems as a way to whitewash the cost, and it's certainly possible I've been duped. Here's where I got my info.
http://www.defenseone.com/business/2017/02/charted-heres-how-cost-each-version-f-35-changing/135451/ I tried to look at a source that isn't as left wing as I'm inclined to be, hoping for something fact based. If the number is closer to what you said, then woohoo, we could get a lot done in the parks for just one fighter jet.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
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I just like that they raised a TON of money for that "Find Your Park" campaign. Seems dumb to raise money to advertise the parks. It was a big part of the reason that visitation went up so much recently.
Keep in mind the advertising campaign was funded by donations from private companies so it didn't use NPS dollars but all the new visitors sure did have an effect.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Oct 25, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
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Just two great words here: Geezer. Pass.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Oct 25, 2017 - 10:17pm PT
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Another reason I don't plan to visit any more national parks. They are over crowded, over priced and plain BS.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 25, 2017 - 10:27pm PT
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They are over crowded, over priced and plain BS.
I can go to almost any NP, park my car, and within an hour be away from civilization, for 80 bucks a year.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Oct 25, 2017 - 10:46pm PT
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I can go to almost any NP, park my car, and within an hour be away from civilization, for 80 bucks a year.
Good point and I agree. Just feeling a bit snarky tonight. Thanks for reeling me in.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 26, 2017 - 06:25am PT
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Dingus- I sort of arrived at the same line of thinking as a somewhat less brutal solution than one giant horrible fee.
A sliding scale for peak days and season (same as hotels and airlines) might encourage people to spread out a bit. .
The charge-per-car regardless of how many people in the car actually never made sense to me.
It should be a flat fee per car + a per-person charge. (same as amusement parks - the NPS is basically one anyhow. )
Example: The pit toilets aren't cheap to pump/maintain ... the # of people using them should factor in when discussing maitenence costs. The car doesn't crawl in there alone.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Oct 26, 2017 - 07:00am PT
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Everything with this administration is about scraping the bone to free up revenue for another tax break for the wealthy. Most of it involves diminished living standards, services and recreation for the more unsavory class of our society.
"Oh, I can afford it so it's ok with me". Well, I can afford it as well but my kid's can't and the unsavory can't.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 26, 2017 - 07:12am PT
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The NPS fee increase for Yosemite is a tax mostly on foreigners.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 26, 2017 - 07:19am PT
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Blame your reps for not providing adequate funding. It's been a decades old problem.
This is at least a first step towards forcing our political "leaders" to act
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 26, 2017 - 07:41am PT
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Pinnacles has been inundated with more and more people since moving from Monument to National Park. Too many visitors on some days for what the park infrastructure can handle. I remember the excellent Ranger Clyde saying that I was the only visitor on a few of my excursions to the West side in the early eighties.
Times change and a park entrance fee increase will generate some of the funds needed for maintenance. The parks have "free days" and a locals discount may be in order at some parks.
Buy your annual pass at your favorite Park, as 80 percent of pass fees stay in the Park where they are sold.
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flatlandermcjack
Trad climber
Speardawg, SD
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Oct 26, 2017 - 07:55am PT
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If the RMNP fee goes from 20$ to 70$, i could only imagine the already-stupid 26$ bivy permit might jump to close to 100$...I say the people shouldn't be charged to enter land that they own and pay for...
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Nuglet
Trad climber
Orange Murica!
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Oct 26, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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the GOP Trumpers cut the NPS budget!
now, the middle class has another tax, thanks GOP!
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Nuglet
Trad climber
Orange Murica!
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Oct 26, 2017 - 08:28am PT
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I am for a fee increase based on BMI. A lot of park maintenance involves feeding people and disposing of waste, so it makes sense to target the groups that do the most of both.
So climbers and serious hikers get in for cheap, fat Texans that see the park through their iFone screens, not so much
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 26, 2017 - 09:12am PT
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Clinker, Pinnacles is not on the list for increased fees.
Not yet. ;-/
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 26, 2017 - 10:02am PT
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A lot of park maintenance involves feeding people
???
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 26, 2017 - 10:35am PT
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Remember that you can buy a 365 day pass for a car load for $80. Its actually more than 365 days at 12+ months. The math says 40 days at $2 per day, not an expensive access to my habit. Gas is a whole nother topic!
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Oct 26, 2017 - 10:58am PT
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Has the Donald ever spent time in a Nat Park?
Even if he did he probably didn't appreciate it.
I don't think the Air Force will ever give up a jet to help a park
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Oct 26, 2017 - 11:15am PT
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Jody-Quit griping contractor. I'll bet those same people that you claim can't afford $70 for a week park's entrance fee spend more than that on cigarettes and/or alcohol in a week. This may be true Jody, however; these people have children who deserve access to affordable parks. I'd never hold it against your son that you love Ted Cruz. Not to mention, he may grow up to be a card-carrying liberal someday.
Nice to hear from you BTW.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Oct 26, 2017 - 11:42am PT
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$70 to drive into a national park-- that's obscene. only the as... currently holding power would consider this. yes, there are 3 weekends a year where way too many people are trying to get in the parks. but these entrance fees are insignificant towards funding the upkeep, they only serve to limit the number of people able to get in. we should be encouraging more people to experience the outdoors.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 26, 2017 - 11:53am PT
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If implemented, estimates suggest that the peak-season price structure could increase national park revenue by $70 million per year. That is a 34 percent increase over the $200 million collected in Fiscal Year 2016. Under the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act, 80% of an entrance fee remains in the park where it is collected. The other 20% is spent on projects in other national parks.
https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/10-24-2017-fee-changes-proposal.htm
I wonder how much of that 20% goes to fund GSMNP which has no entrance fees?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 26, 2017 - 11:59am PT
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there are 3 weekends a year where way too many people are trying to get in the parks
You should get out more.
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Climberdude
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Oct 26, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
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eKat,
I asked that question to a ranger at the Pinnacles National Park this last weekend during the Pinnacles Climbers Appreciation Days. Eighty percent of the park entrance fee collection at that particular park goes to that park while 20% goes to the general funding of parks. The National Parks operate on fixed budgets, yet have mandated increasing costs that must be taken care of within the fixed budget. There are also limitations on their funding such as situations where certain percentages must go towards deferred maintenance.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Oct 26, 2017 - 12:50pm PT
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Blame your reps for not providing adequate funding. It's been a decades old problem.
That's correct, blame your Republicans for not providing adequate funding.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 26, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
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eKat, yer analysis is pithy but without data, especially given that you
live in a state with like 12 Starbucks? Come to urban Amerika and see all
the drooling retards lining up on every street corner to give their money
away for watered down joe and crappy 'pastries'.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 26, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
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eKat, they smell nice. There is one next to my credit union in Aptos. The bank has a decent free coffee, so I use Starbucks bathroom and drink the banks coffee.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Oct 26, 2017 - 02:12pm PT
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Let's face it, given that most people spend $10 a day at Starbucks
only the ones that live in Monrovia. :-)
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Oct 26, 2017 - 02:33pm PT
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Good point Jody but they still can't afford the $70 for themselves because of the booze and cigarettes.
Maybe just have their kids Uber themselves to the park.
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Don Paul
Mountain climber
Denver CO
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Oct 26, 2017 - 02:35pm PT
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Here's the comment I submitted. I am in Estes Park now and am going to renew my pass while I'm here. There's about zero percent chance the fee won't go up.
The NPS turns the most beautiful places into the US into overcrowded theme parks. The entrance fee is not the issue: the construction and so-called maintenance is. I wish some of these places could be turned over to the Forest Service and BLM, which do a far better job taking care of public lands, primarily by not building paved roads.
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kief
Trad climber
east side
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Oct 26, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
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Talking about this last night I came to the position that a peak time gate fee hike is the cheapest way to implement crowd control in Yosemite.
Put up barricades at Pohono Bridge and Tunnel View and make everyone walk or bike into the Valley=cheapest way to implement crowd control in Yosemite.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Oct 26, 2017 - 05:04pm PT
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The NPS turns the most beautiful places into the US into overcrowded theme parks. The entrance fee is not the issue: the construction and so-called maintenance is. I wish some of these places could be turned over to the Forest Service and BLM, which do a far better job taking care of public lands, primarily by not building paved roads. Careful what you wish for Don Paul, in this neck of the woods the USFS turns the most beautiful places into stumps.
Olympic National Forest about 660 thousand acres 2400 miles of roads, Olympic National Park about 923 thousand acres 168 miles of roads.
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Don Paul
Mountain climber
Denver CO
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Oct 26, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
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^ those are dirt roads, and the trees grow back. The paved roads and visitor centers in the National Parks permanently change the character of the land.
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dh
climber
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Oct 26, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
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I'm feeling the need to re-read Desert Solitaire.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 26, 2017 - 06:31pm PT
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I’m of the opinion that multi-story parking garage in the woods somewhere on the west end, big enough for say, 5000, maybe 10,000, could be feasible and even kept below tree line and made somewhat less obtrusive that the typical urban parking structure. Sounds like what the ski resorts have done - parking, hotels, high speed lifts, shuttles - and high prices! Zillions of skiers. Fuk'n snow is plowed clean off the mountain by 9AM. If parking were easy in Yos, more people would come and pay more and wreck the place even quicker.
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John M
climber
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Oct 26, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
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which is why we need a quota.. not a tiered system that only affects the poor.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 26, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
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Haha - like running the Colorado through Grand Canyon! Who pays the bills and protects the place the best? The commercial interests do, the park knows it, and you pay for that. No money? No problem, get on the lottery and wait - possibly forever. I'm okay with that too.
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John M
climber
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Oct 26, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
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This land is your land.
This land is my land.
If you can afford it.
You can enjoy it.
this land was made for the wealthy.
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John M
climber
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Oct 26, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
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Its an ideal to live up to with public lands. The problem is hardness of heart makes it difficult to live up to the ideal. I fully understand that in this world the ideal is not the reality. I live with it daily. I live in bullhead city. A city which is aptly named because of the number of fully obstinate people in it. They believe what they believe and it doesn't matter what you show them. Much like many on this forum. In fact much like a lot of this country. Which is why we got Trump. And why we will continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and make it harder and harder to live here.
As for the Colorado.. If the government didn't set a limit, then the commercial rafters would overrun the river. If would be bumper to bumper traffic down the river and people would have built hotels to handle the traffic.
And my argument is not saying that government is all good. Its just in response to the statement that appears to be saying that the only thing protecting the river is the commercial enterprises, which is hogwash.
Because of the folly of humans, you need both a strong government and strong private industry, to balance each other out. or we would have destroyed ourselves long ago.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 26, 2017 - 10:40pm PT
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I can't help but wonder.....is all this just a distraction, to use up the energy and money of the left, so that they don't notice that the economy has been gutted, that they've lost their pensions and their futures?
Maybe not.
But maybe.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Oct 27, 2017 - 11:51am PT
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still get out most weekends clink. spent many years of my youth living half the year in the park climbing. how bout you? so the answer is to not invest in infrastructure to reasonably accommodate more park visitors and jack up the price so fewer will come. sorry, not buying that. fact is there used to be significantly more campgrounds in the park that have long since been shut down for the good of the park... well not the park, but the concessions. its all politics. i don't claim to know what the best approach would be, how many yosemite master plans have there been? but cutting back on nps budgets to pay for tax cuts for the rich and increases to the military and making up for that by pricing people out is wrong.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Oct 27, 2017 - 11:59am PT
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This land is my land
It is not your land
I got a shotgun
And you ain't got one
If you don't get off
I'll blow your head off
This land belongs to me not you
carry on...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 27, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
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Smallpox arguably did an equally good job of paving the way for the dispossession.
If the British/Northwest Co had been more pro-active about giving guns to
the natives it might have forestalled the inevitable.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 27, 2017 - 04:35pm PT
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act is there used to be significantly more campgrounds in the park that have long since been shut down for the good of the park
No there haven't.
Upper Pines is newest and is a dense 3rd world gong show of humanity.
I've been on every last foot of trail within at least 10 miles of that Valley, many times, they are all incredibly busy and worn smooth, broken down, dusty, been paved into 30 human wide highways and/or completely buried in horse crap. There is absolutely nothing "natural" about any of it. The road to Glen Aulin, Cathedral Peaks - same thing.
Bring more people in? You go enjoy that. Be sure to figure out the whole food in / poop and trash out thing to support these extra people along with those campgrounds and parking lots. I find it sad and disgusting the place is still called a park, it's a city zoo.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2017 - 07:49pm PT
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Well if there's ever a quota first dibs should go to 'Muricans!
Only half kidding
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 27, 2017 - 10:00pm PT
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Bleak Lives Matter!
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 28, 2017 - 06:42am PT
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Seasonal price increases would still leave cheaper options for people who planned accordingly.
It begs the question if price hikes would really help crowding? Disneyland is now $120? a pop and still overrun on summer weekends.
I'm personally in favor of a quota system (hard to implement I know) - at the height of summer. You hear reports about people just sitting in stop and go traffic for hours circling the Valley with no hope of pulling over or parking to walk around. Hardly fair to collect $30 from someone then deny them any access other than sitting in thier car breathing exhaust. What's the point of allowing that situation to exist?
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John M
climber
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Oct 28, 2017 - 09:52am PT
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There certainly are some amazing places not yet overrun by people in the valley. I have mixed feelings about ravens. I love watching them, but they are a reflection of humans. The more humans, the more ravens. What I don't like about them is that they eat the song birds eggs. More humans = more ravens = less song birds. I was up in Lassen this last summer and the number of song birds amazed me. Lassen is on, I believe, 3 bird flyways, so that explains part of it, but over the years I have talked to a number of old timers in Yosemite and they say there were more song birds. Ah well, ravens are still cool to watch. In lassen I watched two of them harass an eagle that was hunting manzanita lake until that eagle left.
I'm personally in favor of a quota system (hard to implement I know) - at the height of summer. You hear reports about people just sitting in stop and go traffic for hours circling the Valley with no hope of pulling over or parking to walk around. Hardly fair to collect $30 from someone then deny them any access other than sitting in thier car breathing exhaust. What's the point of allowing that situation to exist?
There are a number of problems with traffic. One is parking. Part of that problem is that years ago there were more parking spaces. That was determined by using old arial photos and looking at all of the turn outs. And campsites often held more autos too. So there has been a squeezing down done by the park which has resulted in more cars driving around looking for a parking place.
Not that more parking would completely solve the problem as it wouldn't. We have grown beyond that point.
What I would like to see is a multi pronged system involving buses coming from outside the park and a quota system. but not a fixed quota. A flexible one. ( hard to implement I know, but one that would allow for first come first served camping.
So what I envision is system with a mixture of first come first served, and a quota. Plus reservations. All reservable campsites and motel rooms would of course have a reservation to enter the park. Then there could be a reservation system to help those who want to make certain they get in. That would be a percentage of everyone getting in. Then the rest of the quota could be filled with first come first served. This would be the largest group. So if you get there early, like it is today, you get in. Reservations don't own the place, like they do on hikes to half dome. The first come first served are the majority.
Then with a bus system from one entrance, those people would be over the quota. Thats part of what I mean by flexible. Once the park reaches a certain number, then the people in autos are stopped form entering until the number of autos in the park goes down. Usually about 3 PM. I used to work the gates for the busy weekends. But with a bus system at one gate, then people could have an option. as long as there is parking outside the park, then they could ride the bus system into the park and still get in even though autos were stopped.
To make that happen autos would have to be stopped down whereever the parking area was. I don't know how to make that work without extra lanes for buses, otherwise the buses would be stuck in a log jam. ( just realized that.. my system is still a work in progress )
But part of it would be a light system telling people how close the park is to closing. Those lights would have to be in the towns down the hill from the park. One in mariposa.. then one in el portal. One in oakhurst and one in fish camp. And then one at the start of the grade on 120. Plus some near groveland. They could be a colored light system that tells people how close the park is to closing to autos. Based in part on the number of vehicles that have passed those signs. This would help people in autos decide to ride the bus system, rather then drive all the way to the park entrance and find it closed. Like happens now. Or rather they find a huge log jam at the gate because part of how the park regulates how many people get in the park is they just don't do full staffing at the entrances until the lines get long. So they slow the flow of people into the park. They wouldn't need to do this with a quota system. Let it fill up as fast as possible, then stop vehicles from entering. Turn them away before they get to the entrance, so that there wouldn't be a log jam for the people who work in the park and those with reservations. And those riding the bus system.
This is of course an involved system. And would be difficult to implement. but I believe once it was committed to, then it could work reasonably well. People would adjust and there would be less log jams of autos. It would require more summer help, but then some of the ranger/police that deal with the head aches of log jams in the valley could be shifted to outside the park as there would no longer be log jams in the valley. I also believe that they should put in a light system at the crossing in front of the lodge. I'm not a purist and don't see the need for 3 people to handle crowd and traffic control. Maybe one person and a light. One person because people on foot would often not wait for a light.
Just my thoughts after living 25 years in the park and working the busy weekends at the gate. It certainly would require some flexibility and would have growing pains. but I believe it could be done. We just have to have the vision and the will. For those who think its too involved and would cost too much, just remember that the park was seriously considering a complete bus system and only those with campground reservations would get in with autos. That would have meant a system with more then 450 buses. I read the initial studies done on making a bus system. That would be very expensive and mean very large parking lots outside the park. That would be a lot more expensive then what I envision, which would only require some electric signs, one smaller bus system at one entrance and thus a smaller parking lot. plus the people to make it work.
Imagine a valley without log jams. And a way for people to get in even when the auto allotment is reached. If people insisted, there could even be buses added from each entrance.
In my opinion everyone wins with my system. The valley will still have a lot of people in it. But its not really the people who are a problem as they mostly don't leave the main areas and its not that hard to get away from them. Its the log jams of autos. this would solve it while still allowing people to drive into the park and stop wherever they want. Something a bus system doesn't really allow for.
Edit: and yes, I have been thinking about this for a long time. In the 90s I started working the gates on the busy weekends and I went to many of the valley and merced river plan meetings. I love the park and hate seeing the current mess it has.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 28, 2017 - 10:50am PT
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Big bureaucracy always raises prices and wastes money. Look at DMV, local water agencies, power companies, Universities, county agencies. The HR people in my old county wouldnt accept my UCDavis transcripts for a job application. The new Ca law says I have to pay $245 for their private consulting firm to determine if I have 30 units of science. I have 277. Its no wonder that the health dept cant staff their needs and closed down EH & S. They outsourced the public health to their contractor cronies. Yet the admin all keep their jobs and pay even though someone else is now doing their jobs. The Sac State university has now hired out contractors called University Enterprises to do all their HR work. Yet all the HR admin keep their jobs and pay and benifits while someone else does all the work and taxpayers get fleeced. The Western States Fisheries now outsources their HR and hiring to an outside firm. They wont process applications any other way. When I applied through the mandatory webpage my information was immediately sold and Nigerian scam emails flooded my account. Because government has no accountability, they are getting fat off the taxpayer and outsourcing their jobs so they dont have to work. The fee hike in the Valley will probably be used to pay a private contractor huge pork to run the park. Meanwhile, the govt employees at the top will get raises and administrative compensation packages for their executive duties (doing nothing). That is what government has come to nowadays. My reaction to all this is thus: dont covet things other people want. They cost too much and will get taken from you anyway. Climb somewhere outside the valley and be happy for free. I chose climbing over other sports because noone owns the vertical world and few people want to go there. Thats why I now happily live in a cheap house in the desert. There is no rush of foreign tourists or Entitled elites coming here. I live in the dirt in a place that nobody wants and Im happy. Come climb this rock near Kingston and stay out of the valley. It may not be popular or famous but that is the whole reason it is so delightful. Cheap lodging, historic salloons and gold in the high country!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 28, 2017 - 11:20am PT
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Chainsaw, well said. Damn, I had to ask Mr Google where Kingston, NV is.
How do you keep track of all 113 inhabitants there?
Turns out I'm planning a road trip to yer hood ASAP! Me like Kneevada.
Holy cow, that's some nice lookin' granite there!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 28, 2017 - 11:27am PT
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To eliminate cars from the valley would require a massive fleet of buses. I think I heard the number 500 bandied about.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 28, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
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Here's another approach, already in place for Glacier Point:
From mid-May to September, you may be required to use a free shuttle from Badger Pass to Glacier Point between 10 am to 4:30 pm when the Glacier Point parking lot fills. If you arrive at the Badger Pass turnoff before 10 am or after 4:30 pm, you can drive to Glacier Point (and all trailheads). If you arrive between 10 am and 4:30 pm and the Glacier Point parking lot is full, rangers will have you park at Badger Pass and use the free shuttle to get to Glacier Point or other locations along the Glacier Point Road. Parking is available at Badger Pass for RVs and trailers, but not for full-sized commercial buses.
So, if you are a day user, and arrive after a certain time, you have to park and ride the bus. I'd think you'd want to stage this outside the park.
Of note, the bus service basically already exists: YART, running from all the gateway cities. It also stops at some resorts.
This could all be accentuated, to the detriment of the lone person or family riding in a car for the day.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 29, 2017 - 07:09am PT
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@ John M. Thanks for the insight. You clearly have had time and experience to analyze the situation. Yes- a plan like that would be expensive and difficult to implement (especially once the buerocratic enemies-of-progress got thier hooks into it) but it seems like a good solution. - especially if paired with maybe a timing sceneario like Ken describes is happening with Glacier Point.
QUOTE Chainsaw: The fee hike in the Valley will probably be used to pay a private contractor huge pork to run the park. Meanwhile, the govt employees at the top will get raises and administrative compensation packages for their executive duties (doing nothing). That is what government has come to nowadays.
Yup. My thought too^^^
Climb somewhere outside the valley and be happy for free. I chose climbing over other sports because noone owns the vertical world and few people want to go there.
That as well^^^ I enjoy doing vounteer work in the Valley and seeing friends during Facelift, but I have never viewed Yosemite as a "climbing destination". There's a million miles of rock out there you can climb for free and not have to fight the crowds.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 29, 2017 - 07:30am PT
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Let the poor enjoy Stockton...
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 29, 2017 - 07:41am PT
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The parks are incredibly diverse. All kinds of people visit. We have enough private places for rich folks to recreate without those pesky peasants. Let's keep the parks affordable for everyone.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 29, 2017 - 08:04am PT
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There is a newer version of this item:
Sony PlayStation 4 500GB Bundle with Call of Duty Black Ops III - Black
Sony PlayStation 4 500GB Bundle with Call of Duty Black Ops III - Black
$388.00
(1,364)
In Stock.
About the product
Includes: 500 GB PlayStation 4 System, 1 DualShock 4 Wireless Controller, AC Power Cable, HDMI Cable, USB 2.0 Cable, Mono Wired Headset, and a digital voucher for The Last of Us Remastered.
With PlayStation Network and PlayStation Plus (sold separately), gain access to free games, next-gen online multiplayer, and more.
Cutting edge graphics bring game worlds to life like never before, and next gen processing speed gets you into your games faster than ever
Connect with your friends to broadcast and celebrate your epic moments at the press of the Share button to Twitch, UStream, YouTube, Facebook and Twitter
Stream music, movies, sports, and television on Netflix, Amazon, and more. Subscription fees may apply.
Why go to Yosemite when for 5 1/2 entrance fees you can order this PlayStation 4 bundle from Amazon and "connect with your friends to broadcast and celebrate your epic moments at the press of the Share button..." Kinda like a climbing forum, but way cooler and graphic.
All this can be done from home in Stockton!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 29, 2017 - 09:04am PT
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What Chainsaw said about government outsourcing work that they were supposedly hired to perform...Grab the toilet handle and flush some more tax dollars down the sewer...If only the taxpayers knew...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 29, 2017 - 09:41am PT
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Considering that there is no separate entrance fee (it's included, I don't know how much) to ride in on YARTS, it seems like staying in the gateway communities (or even USFS campgrounds), would be the cheap way to go for day visits.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 29, 2017 - 09:59am PT
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We have enough private places for rich folks to recreate without those pesky peasants. Let's keep the parks affordable for everyone. Where? Private land is generally either fenced off and manicured, or mined and destroyed. The NP's are pretty special, that is what's left of them. You have to leave the lower 48 and head north to find anything else that's close, that or get on a jet. I've been all over this planet, our wild and natural places are disappearing, the Valley is just a micro example.
It's a slow and certain progression that I agree with, that the special places will become more exclusive - that is as long as nothing of value is buried underneath. The food you eat, the schools you attend, the goods you buy, it's all the same thing - too many monkeys on this planet and the distribution of limited resources. In general, if you don't want to step up and compete for your share, there will be less and less for you. What you once had will be taken away by someone who has earned or been granted more money and power.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 29, 2017 - 10:15am PT
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Haven’t paid much attention to this latest attempt to right the world but in a lot of the world a national park means no or very little development. That keeps out 97% of the rich and poor - just the way the animals like it, not that they don’t like pizza deck scraps.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 29, 2017 - 10:16am PT
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JLP gets to the core of the issue..Population control should be on the tips of everyones' tongue but more consumers equals the potential for more profits... I avoid Yosemite primarily because of the crowds ...Getting my ass beat by the Duck is the other reason...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 29, 2017 - 10:35am PT
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Population control should be on the tips of everyones' tongue but more consumers equals the potential for more profits...
That myth has been covered on ST before. We would be at negative population growth if we eliminated all immigration. We are already seeing a shortage of low paid workers. Population growth = cheap labor and those workers will be funding our social security. negative population growth is a disaster unless we convert to an economy that is sustainable. Given our societies love affair with technology and material BS, we are no where close to achieving sustainability without growth.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 29, 2017 - 10:54am PT
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Population control should be on the tips of everyones' tongue
Sounds like a good compromise without total abstinence.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 29, 2017 - 11:09am PT
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War, disease and famine are the only mechanisms of population control.
If you want a glimpse of life in your own (or your children's) future, fly to Shanghai for a week. The metropolitan area is the largest in the world at 90 million - to the entire state of Cali's 40. It does not seem possible until you see it.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Oct 29, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
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AAaaaand, DMT wins the Internet.
BAd
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 29, 2017 - 02:32pm PT
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and the numbers do not in any way support your contention that the poor are flocking to Yosemite right now.
except, of course, for some climber types......
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 29, 2017 - 02:34pm PT
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Where? Private land is generally either fenced off and manicured, or mined and destroyed.
Two that immediately come to mind, were the places where 1. Scalia died, and 2. Where Cheney shot that guy in the face.
I imagine that this falls into the category of: If you have to ask, you aren't rich enough.....
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 29, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
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Texas? omg...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 13, 2017 - 04:13pm PT
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Mark your calendars for the 4 weekends a year NOT to visit a park. Alpine start and a late night exit will avoid fees in most places, although I have seen booths manned as early as 5 am (Grand Canyon)
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jan 18, 2018 - 06:42am PT
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Spinless jellyfish^^^ The lot of them.
"Zinsky wont return my call... I'm butt hurt.. I quit"
WTF?
They may have felt ineffectual but they certainly will be replaced with people who are totally incompetant or puppets of destruction.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 18, 2018 - 07:55am PT
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They may have felt ineffectual but they certainly will be replaced with people who are totally incompetant or puppets of destruction.
I doubt he will replace them.
the trump administration's policy is to minimize the number of government employees. Re, the State department.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jan 18, 2018 - 08:01am PT
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^^^Another reason they shouldn't have quit. - they'll hamstring everyonedown the foodchain just trying to muddle through the next year.
Had this happen a few years ago on a small scale with the USFS... it was a total nightmare for us peon underlings just trying to keep the cart rolling for the public.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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From the link above
The official would not disclose the revised rate structures being considered but said the goal is a more modest adjustment to fees that haven’t increased in a decade. A 10 percent fee increase for all parks with entrance charges is on the table, as is a $20 increase for the $80 annual and senior lifetime passes. The agency is also debating whether to increase tour buses’ flat-rate charge, he said, or to implement a per-passenger bus fee to increase revenue.
What tour buses pay in Yosemite
Commercial Tour Fees
Commercial sedan (up to six seats): $25 (plus $15 per person)
Commercial van (7-15 seats, regardless of occupancy): $125
Commercial mini bus (16-25 seats, regardless of occupancy): $200
Commercial motor coach (26 or more seats, regardless of occupancy): $300
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Don Paul
Gym climber
Denver CO
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Great news. The fee hike was meant for construction and "maintenance" projects that I oppose anyway.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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The fee hike was meant for construction and "maintenance" projects that I oppose anyway.
You obviously haven't had to take a crap in Tuolumne or you would know that they need some building funds.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 13, 2018 - 03:09am PT
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Looks like the increase is official
https://www.10news.com/news/national/national-park-fees-will-rise-but-not-as-high-as-first-proposed
The National Park Service on Thursday unveiled a new plan to hike entrance fees at national parks with more modest increases than the ones it proposed last fall.
The proposal calls for raising fees at many national parks by around $5 in the next year, with some seeing an additional increase in 2020. The new plan will apply to the 117 national parks that charge fees, not to the two-thirds of national parks that do not have entrance fees, the agency says.
The entrance fee for the Grand Canyon, the nation's most popular park that charges an entrance fee, will climb by $5 to $35 per vehicle starting June 1. An annual pass for the Grand Canyon will climb by $10 to $70, according to the park service numbers.
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John M
climber
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Apr 13, 2018 - 07:56am PT
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Seems like a sneaky way to get everyone to agree to a fee increase. Threaten a huge increase. Then offer a smaller increase and everyone breathes a sigh of relief instead of complaining.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2018 - 12:09pm PT
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^^^^
Ha! Never thought of that. If that's the case it seems it worked as planned. Worked on me, anyway.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Apr 13, 2018 - 12:20pm PT
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Then there's also the thing where you could get a job with the park of your choice, or Volunteer. They love Volunteers and treat them with the highest respect. Called VIP's. I know there will probably be na sayers but I volunteer and it feels good to help with things that they don't have money to do anymore. Lots of cuts have got things down to bare bones in a lot of park things. I do Graffiti removal and its amazing how much there is!! The thing with Volunteering too is that you can pretty much pick ANYTHING you want to do that is Park related. And it gets you in for FREE!
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