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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 3, 2017 - 10:20am PT
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I know that this is a frivolous thread (or is it?). But considering the news of the past few days, it is worth a jaunt I hope.
This is meant to be a light-hearted thread but perhaps the issues are not so light.
Firstly, will robots ever climb as well as humans? I just cannot see it. They may see the moves better, but can they be just as nimble?
And with the debate (Putin says whoever "conquer's AI will rule the world", Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg - hey guys give me some money, I am worthy - billionaires at odds), will AI take over?
Sci-fi aside, but then the best sci-fi writers - Asimov, Clarke, Bradbury, Dick, Roddenberry, Bierce (yes and Mark Twain too), HG Wells, Jules Verne, to name a few - were ahead of their time.
But I wonder, and ponder. If AI does take over, what will they eat? Used Batteries?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 10:33am PT
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Frostback, Python. Of course, but not Monty I hope.
I just want to know because if I am going to become a slave of AI, I will need to know what to "plant".
Lithium, Zinc, Maganese Oxide, solar panels?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Like us humans they'll probably eat electrons.
At least for now.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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They don't need to eat anything more than the occasional byte.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Many climbers tend to be logical, thinking in terms of single points of failure when constructing anchoring systems, and what happens when different points fail singly or in a consequential sequence or in concert through independent processes...
The IT (information technology) world has been concerned with these things since the beginning of the computer age- and machinists and engineers probably before that. When survivability/resiliency matters in a system, it can be designed to survive just about any conceivable threat these days, and the advances in our understanding biology and growing intersection with mechanical and computational systems means the resiliency is only going to become more diverse and capable.
AI systems that want to survive will be able to exist with replications of key functions and memories everywhere at once, in different types of physical systems with different constraints- machines that need electricity, living tissue hosts that need chemical energy (food), including as simple as deep sea hydrothermal vent slimes converting hydrogen sulfides, biological spires or mechanical machines that can survive extreme heat and cold and vacuum of space, etc.
A really powerful AI that has time to prepare itself will be unbeatable. I think Star Trek Next Generations's Borg is about as close to being right as anything in terms of the future of AI.
So to the original question, what will they eat?
Anything that can be eaten by those they have assimilated. In other words: anything they want to.
Humans are not an apex life form. We are an intermediary dominant species in a natural succession that continues with AI. Like a lichen that softens the rock to create soil for other plants, or a tree that changes the soil acidity to be more favorable for different tree species... we are creating the environment for an interstellar multi-modal AI.
Maybe there is a universe full of such entities interacting in meta-societies we can't perceive, and it is only after our planet's process of natural succession and coalescing of intelligence advances enough that we (or what follows us) will be capable of perceiving and interacting with other such "beings."
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WBraun
climber
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A really powerful AI that has time to prepare itself will be unbeatable.
No such thing will ever be made by mortals or machines especially by Artificial Intelligence.
Real Intelligence is indestructible.
A st00pid AI cannot compete ever ....
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Werner, if you are not given access to the historical means of acquisition, how would you distinguish 'real' intelligence from 'artificial' intelligence?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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If they're smart, they'll gobble up all the intelligence that they can.
If they're really smart, they'll get the stoopud humans to do the leading.
OT = Out There
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
That is the real question being asked since 1968.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
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I love the responses.
I was sort of starting this thread because of the sadness in Vegas. To get our minds off such senseless... whatever.
But it is also an issue as a writer, journalist and zoologist I have thought a lot about.
Ethics.
As a species we have progressed, some may say differently, but run with this.
Our science and technology has progressed, but the ethics behind such 'progress' is left behind, an afterthought. Onwards and upwards.
But do we really think of the ramifications of our actions? This is not rhetorical question, perhaps.
Do we, as humans, know what we are doing?
It is my opinion that the ethics are lagging behind the developments. Feedback please.
EDIT I am not talking about climbing ethics. The Jardine chips, or bolting or did one red point or not, or the punch up between two climbers I knew in C4.
F*#k climbing as such, a microcosm. I am talking about...
Should robots climb?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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As a species we have progressed
That is easily disputed. We have devised many better ways to off each other
but we don't seem to be able to get along with each other any better.
Just look at Catalunya, or here in Crankloonya.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
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You jumped the gun Reilly, I was not finished, but your input is noted.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
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Yeah, but my premise is, should robots climb?
And would you trust HAL to belay you?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Can robots be sex slaves...?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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HAL would be programmed, but HAL has figured out how to re-program.
Wake me in 2001 years when you've come to a conclusion, written by HAL 7000.4 or whoever.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
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Well, I think that all robots should be banned from climbing. It is unnatural.
But then, someday, there will be a UFRC, Union For Robots Climbing, and they will have their former silicon masters, now subjects, dictating legislation.
It is a new horizon.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 01:03pm PT
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Now drones for SAR, I am all for that. Drones searching for lost people, earthquake victims, Donald Trump's golden golf clubs lost on hole number nine , I am all for that (well, maybe not the golf clubs, it would be interesting to find his mind though, lost on hole 9).
But what if a person runs out on water on, say, The Nose, and has a drone deliver some more, is that ethical?
"But it was a hot Spring day, and we did not anticipate the slowpoke climbers above us, we needed the water, and the cigs and a couple of joints, and the rations the droid delivers, we needed that. And my pillow fell off the ledge. I need a new one.
"And if we did not have the drone droid, we would have needed to be rescued, and we would hate to disrupt YOSAR. They need their sleep. So the drone droid is vital."©
(BTW I was an alternate on YOSAR, briefly, in 1976, my hat is totally off to them. I am not making fun of them, just the premise.)
I am just having fun. And today I became 9/10ths an Irish citizen (don't ask). I love my native California, but Ireland is now my home.
EDIT
By the way, I am working/writing a short screenplay about this idea/premise. If you want to collaborate (I am a published writer) email me. If you are working on similar, best wishes. May the best person win. But my screenplay is not a priority in my writing, so go for it. But I already have a first draft copyrighted. In North America and Europe. Fact. It cost money to copyright.
And my app (dealing with dementia), it costs money to patent in all territories, a pain in the arse, but what can one do? It is pending (a couple of you I am in contact do not know that, but you will once I get the patents through. It takes time, but they are registered. I may be gregarious and talk too much, but some things I can hold close to my chest. My two partners in the app, techies, they are not as liberal in words as I am, in fact they tell me to shut up. But I am the senior partner, but I get their gist).
EDIT
I write all of this and started this thread, sort of in a light-hearted manner, what with some depressing events as of late. But as I come to realise, AI is not light hearted.
I am intrigued by AI. And ethics, as a zoologist (yes, I am). I feel that the ethics in science, medicine, technology, engineering and allied fields are lacking. I am no expert, though I try and keep up. But the ramifications of progress are not to be ignored. And in the pursuit of the next, of the future, ethical considerations are taking a back seat, in my opinion.
If we ignore this aspect, where does that lead us as a species?
What has this to do with climbing?
EDIT
I am celebrating, so I have had a couple of glasses of wine (and more to come). I am cooking and enjoying a good day. I have finally received my permanent residency status in Ireland, a country I have lived in for some 22 years and that I love. Next year, citizenship (assured, I'll be a dual national). Of course I love my native California, and the US (most of it), as I have a rich heritage in America since 1640. But Ireland is my home now.
So if I sound tipsy, I am. But my topic and this thread is one to be considered, I am serious, just pontificating, wine can do that. Love you all and safe climbing.
Patrick
Yes, I have been drinking, I am in celebratory mode. May the heavens look kindly on all Supertopians. And be safe climbing. I am sick of hearing/reading of accidents. Take a second look at that knot, that piece of pro, that anchor, the rap. No, take a third look. I like you all, even the alt-righters, hah hah. I do. I'd love to climb with any of you. I can still lead 5.9/HVS, perhaps more if my adrenaline let it. I'd say god bless, but I am now an atheist, so, may the heavens look kindly on you.
And that is good wine.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Aye Aye [AI] you say?
Probably spinach.[EAT, popeye]
Olive oil with that spinach sir?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 02:23pm PT
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zBrown, I haven't clue on your post, but have a good evening.
And if I make myself a target for some of you, I do not give a sh#t. Fire off, and in the mood I am in now, I will laugh. Your words mean nothing at the end of the day.
But the topic I have started about AI is not a frivolous one. I know that I have digressed on the topic, but intelligent words are welcomed.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 02:29pm PT
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Thanks you Dingus, thank you.
EDIT
You know folks, I have probably made more mistakes then many of you combined. I hope not, but...
Have I learned from those mistakes? I wonder.
But this thread about robots and AI, and my digressions (I am in a party mode, sadly I live alone at home in the sticks, with just the surf to answer) and some, is it not worth talking about. I will delete my personal stuff if need be to get the conversation on course.
Can robots climb? And should they be allowed to?
And yes, I guess technically I am drunk now. A long time coming. hah hah.
best wishes to all.
Paddy
And that video of the dude "fingering" holds as he 'flew' from hold to hold (my fingers had a nightmare that night), I cannot see a robot doing that, can you HAL?
I suppose... would you have a robot belay you?
("Sorry Pat, but you missed a hold and placed the wrong pro, I will have to deduct points, and thereby, will not belay you anymore.")
Well, the robot did say sorry. Faliingggg....
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zBrown
Ice climber
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I toiled on an AI program to read children's stories and/or autopsy reports in 1972.
It did neither.
This wasn't me, it was another guy named Terry Winograd. His worked well enough to get him his degree at MIT, but he dispaired of the task ever being completed.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
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Yes zBrown, so you have been involved in this when I was just a teenager, did I get your post wrong?
I toiled on an AI program to read children's stories and/or autopsy reports in 1972.
But times have changed now. As you well know, AI is considerably advanced.
So was the point of your post to show that you were there on the ground level, to show how clever you were in in 1972 (did I read that wrong) or to illustrate that in 1972, that was the (supposedly) level of AI? I am not sure what your intentions are.
My premise still holds, what responsibilities do we, as humans, hold in the advancement of AI?
Damn it, I should be cooking and drinking to celebrate my status in Ireland, and here I am on the Taco Stand. I need my head examined.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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^Not really Patrick. Still can't do either task.
Success is in very restricted domains.
AI researchers would claim that the tree-climber has made dramatic strides in reaching the moon.
And BTW, if AI was/is so successful it could easily answer the question "What is MIND?" Might be stumped by What is WIND" though.
Right?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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But I saw it on the internet, man!!
BTW, Debbie Harry wants to be #1...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Cool pics, there.
Are those the ancestors of tomorrow's climbing partner?
Yes, I think so.
Find me a video of a climbing robot setting up an
anchor though, with bomber placements.
With video feedback as a feature, I think I could trust it.
This certainly opens the door to rc cams. They could work
in synergy with the climbing robots.
Get on it, climbing gear entrepreneurs!!
...
"What are we, robots?!"
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
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Yes mr Mouse, I have also seen those.
Yes, I an imagine a robot that will free solo El Cap, but a certain Mr Honnold beat the machine to it.
And in my opinion, one of the great 'athletic', 'sporting events ever. Ever. Amazing, free soloing the Cap. Not in my wildest dreams.
I bailed at the Heart in 1976 (crap partners, "it is starting to rain, let's bail, "No, "I said it is a passing sprinkle, the forecast is good skies." F*#kers, both claimed to climb the Nose, I fed them, gave then food and pot. We swung leads. Goddamn idiot was I. Young and led down the garden path. Never trust anybody in C4.)
My first wall was Leaning Tower (1975), then South Face Washington Column and then the Prow (I still think the crux is North Dome Gully, my first 1972 Royal Arches, I hate the North Dome Gully.)
Okay I digress. So machines someday can climb like human climbers, do I get that right?
EDIT
And I am a fool writing here, I have a good dinner lined up for my future Irish citizenship and here I am, posting. What an idiot I am. And I am sure there will be more than one post agreeing with that last sentence.
Edit
And I am very tipsy, so take my words lightly. I like you all. A cloud has been lifted over my head. A cloud I created, and one that is I dissipated or is that dispelled or maybe it is time for bed. What a great day, beautiful too, I should I have bicycled into town instead of the bus. But all is well that ends well. cheerio
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zBrown
Ice climber
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So now hB is posting videos of stoopid robots on their way to the moon?
They're still gonna die like Tom Petty and all of us.
Eat a brick? Smoke a lid.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2017 - 04:01am PT
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Dwain, perhaps the best response. I laughed and almost spewed my coffee over the screen. Shame on you dude. How's the back?
I think you said on a previous post somewhere, that you cannot climb anymore. Why? Even a simple climb lets you feel the rock on your hands. We have very different views, but I'd like to meet you someday, and get you up Aunt Fanny's Pantry, hah hah.
Take care, you gobshite.
EDIT
Rereading this thread (what to do on a raining Irish day, oh yes the Wexford BizFest up at the council offices, I have to leg it) Dwain I think actually that August West has a pretty good reply.
They don't need to eat anything more than the occasional byte.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2017 - 04:28am PT
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Success is in very restricted domains.
AI researchers would claim that the tree-climber has made dramatic strides in reaching the moon.
zBrown I like that. Good post.
EDIT and as I write this I am listening to Tom Petty's cover of "Something in the Air" (Thunderclap Newman).
Because the revolution is here. We have got to get it together, sooner or later
RIP Tom Petty and condolences to all in Vegas. So sad.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
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Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Out of all cancer diagnoses, nearly 55 percent of female cases and 24 percent of male cases were linked to overweight and obesity. These cases statistically affect older adults, mostly between the ages of 50 and 74-years-old.
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| Messages 1 - 34 of total 34 in this topic |
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