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big ears
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
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To quote a local legend in the sedona area “if i see you anywhere near my routes with so much as a wire brush, I’ll knock your teeth out the back of your skull”.
I don’t condone violence, but manufacturing routes is LAAAAAME.
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dh
climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
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I remember climbing at Bellefonte Quarry, PA. Sorta off limits at the time, quite off limits now. Some really good routes. El Cracktan was a favorite.
Manufractured was some nuts-o hard crack (5.12?) that was literally cut into the wall with a very large saw. I never climbed it. It must have been insanely hard; just think of the polish and parallel nature of the saw cut. I can't find any pictures of it, alas.
Dave.
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dh
climber
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Dec 20, 2017 - 09:48am PT
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From the official guide:
***
Very New! MANUFRACTURED 5.11c (75 ft.) PG
.h2
AKA:| To Saw or Not to Be, Rent-All, Chop that Johnny Rock,
I Came I Sawed I Conquered, Blazing Diamonds etc.....
.h2
Start:| Just left of Welcome to Bedrock is a fairly obvious crack
in three sections. Reach the crack via 2 incut pockets (5.7).
.h2
PRO:| 5, 3/8 in. bolts and some wires if you want.
.us 3
Well what can I possibly say about this route? To sum it all up
 It cost 80 bucks.
FFA: EH, GT, JB - Summer 88.
***
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dagibbs
Trad climber
Ottawa, Ontario
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Dec 20, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
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I have a hard time seeing a sharp line between drilling to place a bolt to make a climb, and drilling to make a hold to make a climb.
There are places where it is generally acceptable to bolt, and places where it is generally unacceptable to bolt, and places where there is still debate -- and this acceptance has changed over the years. Similarly, I think there are circumstances where manufacturing is reasonable, where it isn't, and places where it is debatable, and that consensus on this may shift as it has for bolting. And I don't see such change as being neccesarily wrong.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Jan 26, 2018 - 12:38pm PT
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I'm the one who made Manufractured. Lotta work!
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Jan 26, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
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I seem to recall Sphinx Crack was made when Colorado School of Mines trainee geologists set off a whole bunch of dynamite...
I guess there's a difference between deliberate and accidental manufacturing though
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Jan 26, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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Not for a long time now. Still friends though
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 26, 2018 - 01:07pm PT
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I helped improve a desperation crag in Oregon; basically an old quarry. Tens of thousands of pounds of rock had to be pulled off; sometimes entire columns of basalt, before you reached solid rock fit for climbing.
No chipping, though.
I fail to see who's gonna care except a couple evicted swallows. I'm accused of being a bit of a purist, but some places have sh#t for climbing without a bit of enhancement.
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TLP
climber
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Feb 10, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
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dagibbs: get some glasses! ;-))
How about, no route/hold manufacturing anywhere except a former quarry, and quarried walls only, and even there, not at all on any established climb? Easy, sharp line. You are right, someday consensus may change, but I think it would be a really good idea to hold a firm line against modifying the rock any more than we already do to place pro, for as long as possible.
One of the problems already came up in the 80s, I think, and evidently most people already forgot. Chipping was typical at some sport crags in certain geographic areas (which can remain anonymous), then all the routes got done and they started looking around for harder ones, and it turned out they had them but had already chipped them down a few grades. Crap! what to do now?
I bet absolutely anything that if Jardine hadn't chipped that traverse on the Nose, by now somebody would have found a truly free way somewhere.
Just don't do it. There's plenty to climb without trashing the rock and jeopardizing access.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 12, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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but bolting on a hold on a "one move wonder" route is not a problem.
The future of climbing:
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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Feb 12, 2018 - 10:11am PT
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I feel sorry for this beautiful outcrop in western Nevada. All routes, not just with a chip or two to make an impossible route go at 5-hard, but pretty much fully manufactured with flat, saw cut holds to make routes go as easy as 10a.
I think it is a shame. I guess we haven't learned from past indiscretions.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2018 - 01:57pm PT
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Don’t write my climbing obituary just yet Nottogo, i just completed the first ascent of an unclimbed peak in Patagonia last week with Tad McCrea who is 42 years my junior. I enjoy climbing with much younger climbers and I have embraced most new climbing technology. I also thouroughly enjoy sport climbing.
I didn’t start this thread to be dogmatic in any way. I did it to get a dialogue going about an issue that concerns many. I don’t resist change, I embrace it or question it depending on it’s nature. If you resist all change out of hand it will destroy you...be selective.
I have long railed against the diehards who think that initial route ratings are sacrosanct and I believe that I have been progressive regarding the issue of retro bolting.
Age is not really a determining factor in regards to the way we view the world. Most of the neo nazis who marched at Charlottesville were millennials.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Feb 12, 2018 - 02:54pm PT
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aybe when the old, set in their ways, diehards like Jay Smith and Jim Donini are no longer around, the more progressive minds will take over and different things will happen. If you look at the progression of climbing you will see that change for the better is inevitable in climbing. Early climbers didn't like bolts except in rare instances and sport climbing routes were an abomination, now look.
Progression in climbing is hard to measure and there is nothing progressive about gluing on a hold. Gluing on holds will not make the climbers stronger. Hangboarding, campusing and learning about best ways to cycle and implement workouts will though. There is a lot of rock out there and I don't see the need to glue sh#t on, even though those who do that or chisel can do what they want on certain cliffs, not my business.
It is very hard to compare climbers of today to those of the past because the style has changed quite a lot. I can't say for sure, as I did not climb or exist in the 70s, and early 80s etc. Only started climbing after 2010...but what I personally see that changed everything is how much people today 'work the proj' and the number of people climbing also has changed. A lot more people working out since young age and pulling hard, which allows certain few to do incredible things. Number of people produces more talent to draw from and most are ok to hangdog the f*#k out of something for months or years before the send. Seems as if these tactics weren't as acceptable and incredible rock wizards like Kauk have not accomplished things like the free ascent of El cap, even though I believe he would stack up very high against the best granite climbers in Yosemite today.
And the whole alpinism thing...seems to me like the climbers were just as good years ago as they are today. Some incredible giant routes on huge peaks were climbed in the 70s, 80s and early 90s, far more bad ads than any of the sh#t done my more modern internet stars. Reading magazines from the 80s and 90s really blew my mind when it comes to alpinism and commitments some of the teams took on. They did not need to glue on holds...no one needs to in order to improve skills. Can it be fun though? Of course, for someone.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 12, 2018 - 04:29pm PT
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If you feel that bolting plastic holds on the side of a cliff is OK then please do us all a huge favor and stick to gym climbing.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Feb 12, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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What if I chip a 5.17 on a blank wall, therefor not bringing it down to my level and still leaving it for the next generation of hard climbers?
Check mate
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Feb 12, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
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Was it Leo Houlding who fixed a hood ornament on El Cap?
Correct me if I am wrong
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 13, 2018 - 03:27am PT
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notogo. how well or how much you climb has nothing to do with the issue. you apparently like gym holds. most of us do not like gym holds on natural rock. I am only suggesting that rather than bringing the gym outside you go to a gym where they have pleanty of your gym holds.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2018 - 03:34am PT
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Nottogo....I said “ in my opinion,” dialogue is just that....people offering up opinions which may differ.
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RURP_Belay
Big Wall climber
Bitter end of a bad anchor
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Feb 13, 2018 - 06:38am PT
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We call it "Aggressive Cleaning"...
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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Feb 13, 2018 - 11:36am PT
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locker: I have been a long time reader of Supertopo but never posted before. I have been following the manufactured thread since it started and have been concerned about it's one sidedness so wanted to throw out my differing viewpoints. Calling me Chickenshet isn't really very constructive but I've notice most of your post aren't very constructive IMHO.
but... then what is YOUR viewpoint?
from what I can tell you have a very rigid ground up ethic and don't want to see any fixed gear placed ever. Or is that just a statement about an absolute climbing ethic?
Then you compare/equate a protection bolt at a crux that someone could A0 with installing a plastic hold. Yes you're still drilling a hole into the rock, but this is a silly debate, IMO.
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