Discussion Topic |
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 21, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
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The guy is still an ahole
https://www.outsideonline.com/2237386/road-goes-forever-and-story-never-ends
Lance Armstrong has always been a human narrative machine. If you don’t know that by now, you are either too young to understand such things or have been in a tent somewhere on a Greenland glacier for the past 20 years. He is a living story, a set of interlocking, constructed narratives, invented and given life by him, delivered in a series of ascending climaxes. Armstrong lived inside his narratives, and they were terrific: from the one featuring the poor kid, raised by a single mom, who rose to become a world-champion bicycle racer, to the one about the cancer survivor who won seven consecutive Tours de France and raised money to help millions of other cancer victims. Or the one, finally—this is where he lost control of the script—in which he suffered one of the greatest reversals of fortune of a public figure in American history, in which his legend was instantaneously obliterated.
There is a new narrative now. How could there not be? It emphatically does not feature a broken, friendless man sunk in drugs or alcohol or depression or anger or self-pity. This one is about a man who has rebuilt his family and his friendships, who has attempted to come to terms with how deeply his fans felt betrayed and who says he is sincerely sorry for what he did and the pain he caused. Banned from most official sports, he has transformed himself as an athlete, too. He has reengaged with the world. This is the new story: a humbled man who is working to try to deserve the forgiveness of millions of people who once believed in him.
His enemies will tell you that this Tour de Redemption is as phony as Armstrong’s erstwhile claims that he rode clean. It’s just his new way of manipulating a universe in which everyone is seen as his domestique, they say. So, in a world where atonement requires more than simple apologies, is Lance Armstrong really contrite? Is he really sorry? Is he really a new man?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 21, 2017 - 02:57pm PT
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Seems a pretty good and balanced article. He clearly was an enormous jerk back in those days. He might be somewhat less of one now.
And I can certainly understand his feeling that others who doped got off lightly. Virenque for instance, didn't get stripped of all his polka dot jerseys.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Sep 21, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
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I don't think the guy has anything to be sorry about, still a hero to me.
He may have been the greatest rider of his generation, but he was a piece of sh#t human being who set out to destroy anyone who dared to speak the truth about him. Hardly a hero.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Sep 21, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
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Still a hero to me too. He got me off my arse to ride a road bike and solve my lower back problem and give me something cool to do outside during the week! We all know the rant about performance drugs in sports. Are we kidding ourselves to think Football doesn't or Baseball doesn't!! Now the emerging thing in cycling is little powerful motors secretly hidden in the hubs or elsewhere giving that extra burst up the hill. I want one! They said some in this years tour had them already. They started volunteer weighing of the bikes and some teams complied........the Skye team didn't.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2017 - 04:03pm PT
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The arrogance with which he lied made him a very unsympathetic figure once the truth came out.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 21, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
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I don't find Lance any more worthy of derision than any professional athlete who doped, and that group includes far more than most are willing to acknowledge. Everyone harps on how often he lied, but he was asked often, whereas in other sports (football, baseball, etc.) both fans and other professionals gladly looked the other way. Moreover, as trite as it sounds, this is a guy who visited sick people in the hospital, even when there wasn't press there, to inspire them and give them hope. A-holes don't do that.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Sep 21, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
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My friend is a pro cyclist and friends with Lance. I once asked him on his opinion of Lance. This was when people were just speculating. He stated, "good guy and wanted me to join his team and I politely said no".
Smart move on his part... and the random drug tests are real nowadays. If my buddy decides to visit my house for dinner, I have had the drug testers show up during the meal. Kind off creepy.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Sep 21, 2017 - 05:04pm PT
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He won bicycle races.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2017 - 05:49pm PT
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He destroyed peoples lives without regret. Will be interesting to see what happens if he has to pay back the 100 million in sponsorship money the USPS paid. Intentional torts (fraud) are not dischargeable in bankruptcy.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Sep 21, 2017 - 06:32pm PT
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I don't know Lance but i'm sure he's an as#@&%e...
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Sep 21, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
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Lance a hero? Hmm.
Hell, I vote for Pantani.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Sep 21, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
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Lance Armstrong deserves credit for his record in professional cycling. His doping regimen was not unique, as cycling and PED's have always been inseparable. To even complete a grand tour is monumental . . . to win one is incomprehensible. He won quite a few.
While I do not know the man, his story seems to portray a narcissistic sociopath . . . not a very flattering analysis, but it is an ideal psychology for dominating competitive cycling. Yes the team is important, but ultimately there is an alpha dominant leading the pack. This dominant dictates the narrative and secures victory through relentless determination, often at the cost of personal relationships.
Lance is probably trying to resurrect himself, not unlike the aging rockstar going back out on tour . . . only time can tell if his motives are transformed and sincere.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Sep 21, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
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Lance was in France during the Tour. He was doing analysis of each stage. I'll see if I can find the link.
He did seem less assertive.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 21, 2017 - 06:57pm PT
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Regardless of all the holier-than-thou 'character assertions' he showed tremendous courage in fighting his disease. I'd still shake his hand and wish him well. Some of you would have made good understudies to Torquemada.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Sep 21, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
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Lance won his last Tour de France in 2005. Of the riders who finished in the top 20, nineteen (19) of them have been either sanctioned for failing a doping test or implicated, but never sanctioned, in a doping case.
Did Lance cheat? Yes. Was just about everyone else in the pro peloton cheating as well? Yes.
That doesn't excuse Lance's behavior towards those who called him out, but as far as being a cheater, he was in very good company.
BTW - the trial mentioned in the article has been postponed to late spring 2018 because of a scheduling conflict with one of Lance's lawyers.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 21, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
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Yea I think my admiration for him taught me more about me than it taught me about him. I had a lot of fun rooting for that guy! I still admire him, but probably in a different way than I used to.
It's too bad that it's so hard to feel good about believing in anyone any more. But heck, there are drugs for that too :-)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2017 - 08:57pm PT
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I admired Lance for many of the reasons obvious to all. The way he viciously and repeatedly attacked people, who were telling the truth, changed that for me. He didn't just lie about doing drugs, as many other racers were, he tried to destroy the lives and careers of the people who were outing him.
In the end he came off as a mean spirited narcissist.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
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Yea I agree.
For me, it's kind of hard for me to be pissed at my evolutionary ancestors for fighting tooth and nail to out compete the competition, but now that I'm here, I feel pretty good about myself :-)
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:06pm PT
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I still don't see why people hate him so... I've read most of the books and listened to him many times. Doesn't seem like anyone I'd get along with on a 16 hour car trip but who knows. He comes across as a garden variety dick.
I kinda just shrug and go on with my day.
Anywhere there's that kind of $$$ at stake, people will cheat. That's plain n' simple.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
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I am sorry, but does the sole testicule weigh in for anybody ersse?
I mean, the dude carried a bjt less njt up the hill amjrite?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
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Of course he did....a difference here, and an important one, he was lying and they were telling the truth.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
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Lance won his last Tour de France in 2005. Of the riders who finished in the top 20, nineteen (19) of them have been either sanctioned for failing a doping test or implicated, but never sanctioned, in a doping case.
I've also heard that of the 21 on the podium for Lance's 7 tour victories, 18 of those are sanctioned and/or self-admitting dopers. I liken it to getting caught doing felony speed in the Cannonball Run. If you attempted a Cannonball Run in the 1970's with an intent of not doing felony speed, there would be no reason to enter the race.
Also, it's not as if Lance sat on the couch eating chips while he bulked up via steroids. Lance's training regiment was epic. Furthermore, he was a driving design force behind technological innovations in cycling.
The only reason Lance was caught is that his record streak of victories made him THE prize target. Those who "caught" him advanced their names and careers. All of this doesn't answer the criticisms, but it paints it in a different light.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:43pm PT
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LA won repeatedly. Was he just a better cheater? Good thing his plane wasn't shot down over Vietnam.
Has Lemond ever admitted doping?
Wasn't he actually shot?
Gunsmoke & mirrors my friends!
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:48pm PT
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LA got caught. Was he just a bigger target?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
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Lance biggest mistake was he burned all his bridges.
When you do that you're dead .....
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
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Of course I use pez, everybody does - our breath stinks. Wouldn't you?
-lance in a time long ago
Woulda made it interesting
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Sep 22, 2017 - 12:16am PT
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Some of you peeps here are always sooo butt hurt about things you know nothing about.
Joan Beck is a classic example
Feels a hurt in the butt....then posts
Keyboard clowns posting about pro cycling.....hah sheesh
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2017 - 06:33am PT
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Joan Beck is a classic example ... Keyboard clowns posting about pro cycling.....hah sheesh
I guess your point, drF, is that Jon's one sentence of opinion (which is the extent of his contribution beyond his quote from Outside Mag) was foolish because he is/was not (you presume) a pro cycler himself. Fair enough. But one thing I am amazed about is the wide range of things you are expert in. Trout fishing, US national health care policy, BASE jumping, ceiling fans, Donald Trump, Search and Rescue for missing hikers, just to name a few things in the past month.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Sep 22, 2017 - 07:29am PT
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I'm an expert on being a watcher of pro cycling, and Armstrong (and others) killed that for me.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 22, 2017 - 07:48am PT
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Yea watching cycling and sports in general changed for me. He didn't kill it for me.
I think that we usually prefer to ascribe negative outcomes for ourselves like that to other people, rather than to ourselves. It's kind of a human thing in me. I've got a teenager that I love despite their humanness of blaming me for everything, so I'm kind of an expert in that. :-) I got a lot of joy out of rooting for him, and the fact that it was stolen joy, or inappropriate joy - I don't really blame him for that, any more than I think he owed me that joy in the first place.
Humans are humans and we do all this wacky human stuff. If we misunderstand that - if we want humans to be different than they are, or believe that they're different than they are - that's kind of on us, at least partially. IMHO. Push comes to shove it's easier (and healthier) to notice how other people fall short of what we want humans to be than it is to see it in ourselves.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Sep 22, 2017 - 08:55am PT
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They were all cheats, but only Lance tried to destroy the lives and careers of anyone who spoke the truth about him.
He wrapped himself in righteousness and used it as a sword. It was all lies of course.
I'm not sure if there is a parallel out there... maybe Trump?
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:08am PT
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Right? If he existed a billion years ago, we'd all be descended from him.
I expect that we could see parallels wherever we looked, if that was our nature. Which parallels we see or don't see is kind of about us, IMHO.
Best y'all!
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c wilmot
climber
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:14am PT
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It's shocking how many athletes are doping- with approval.
I don't see how lance is any worse than the Olympians who we allow to cheat.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:44am PT
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Had he been a hero he would have risked everything while he was on top to expose the whole thing. Instead he chose to not only dope, but become the best doping team in the world and lie and lie and lie about it. He was a cheating coward.
There were no hero's during that stretch. He certainly got more vilification after the fact than any other doping cheater, but that came with being so outspoken about his innocence for years and years while becoming hugely rich from it.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:50am PT
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Three Cups of Lance
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2017 - 10:22am PT
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Your comments show your true character drF. You only look at the end result, the end justifies the means in your world. Maybe you should judge people by how they got there. Judge a man by the quality of his character, not by his feats of strength.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Sep 22, 2017 - 10:26am PT
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Of course he did. If someone was trying to destroy YOUR life and career, you'd just roll over and take it? F*#k that, you don't become a champion without being a fighter at heart and I'd expect no less from him. I'd have done the same in his position. Come after my life, career, ability to provide for my family and you're going to get hurt - legally, financially, physically, or all of the above.
The only person destroying his life was Lance himself. He could have kept repeating "never tested positive" and smiled all the way to the bank. That's what athletes in other sports do. Even the ones who get caught, they do their time and return to cashing checks. But instead he chose to burn the whole thing down with his narcissism and bullying.
You're really going to go after the Andreus for telling the truth in a court of law? Sue Emma O'Reilly for libel for telling the truth in an interview? Destroy Greg LeMonds business with Trek just because he dared question that Lance was riding clean? And on and on...That's some f-ed up sh#t right there.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Sep 22, 2017 - 10:29am PT
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I wonder how many Lance apologists there would be if he were French or Spanish or anything else besides USA#1.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
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Sep 22, 2017 - 10:57am PT
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Man, those PEDs combined with the lying and cheating and a snarky attitude will fvck you up bad
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 22, 2017 - 02:23pm PT
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If you want to research a real bicycling legend, look up Pete Penseyres, who won THE RACE ACROSS AMERICA (a much harder event than the Tour de France) twice.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
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Those guys and girls doing the Race Across America are dedicated. Not a lot of money or glory, but definitely a burly ride. They start here in Oceanside, always interesting to meet the riders around town the week before.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 22, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
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It's shocking how many athletes are doping - with approval.
Shocking is a description of our own state of mind - it's not a description of external reality. Reality just is.
When we think something is shocking, it's because it's different than we imagined it was. Shocking is a measure of our un-understanding of reality - it's a measure of how much new information we're gaining.
What we do with that information is up to us. If we want, or allow ourselves, to be shocked again in the future by the same or similar information ..
OK, then that's just information about us.
If you honestly believe that there's an objectively right morality and a wrong morality, and that morality isn't just a human invention that works to our advantage by making it easier for us all to work together and gain more for ourselves collectively than we would if we lived in a dog-eat-dog world ...
Ok, I think some folks would think that you're drinking some koolaid of your own.
Heros are heros because humans say that they're heros, because morality has been advantageous for us in our competition to survive. But that doesn't stop us from using circular logic to use heros as evidence that morality is an objectively good or necessary or intrinsic part of being human.
Morality is just another survival/thrival strategy that gives our group a competitive advantage over others.
But if we think that we can gain more by cheating, maybe don't be shocked that we humans do, even if the collateral damage is that you need to lower your opinion of yourself as one of those nasty human things.
In today's reality, 1 in 5 girls in the US is the victim of sexual abuse by the time she reaches 18. I don't expect humans' moral compass was much better back in the good old days of slavery.
Sure, Lance is a dick. That's maybe not as shocking as we'd like to believe it is, especially when we want to think of him as one of us.
And I do want to think of him, and all the other humans, as one of "us." The challenge, IMHO, is that we nasty human things didn't fall too far from the tree.
Truth, yea, very morally admirable, we humans are cool that way. Yea us! And our species, or our country (MAGA!), or our race, or our gender, or our tribe, or our family, or whatever definition of "us" morality works to our advantage in.
Sorry, but truth, IMHO, we can't handle the truth about us humans :-) We cheat, and lie to ourselves about what we humans are, and then believe our own lies, even if that means that we need to allow ourselves to be shocked and reshocked by the next tale of immoral human behavior.
Best to you anyway, human!
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 23, 2017 - 07:31am PT
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When "hero" is applied to any sports persona, I giggle.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2017 - 01:52pm PT
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Pat Tillman made you giggle?
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Sep 23, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
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SomebodyAnybody
++++++
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 23, 2017 - 03:20pm PT
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Well Trump set the stage
++++++ for lying
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Sep 23, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
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^^^^^^
Like most taco threads.
Drifts from "any given subject" to Trump
Insane obsession
You can loosen-up those strings all by yourself Jim
Set yourself free
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Sep 23, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
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drF ...Lighten up...I raced up Townes Pass out of Death Valley in a group with Pete Penseyres...Small guy that could go up hill fast...My zany team mate was reciting " what do battered women have in common" jokes to the group as we raced up hill...Pete's brother Jim could motor on a bicycle with only one leg...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 23, 2017 - 09:27pm PT
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Still haven't seen any credible evidence that LeMond doped.
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quartziteflight
climber
Who knows?
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Sep 24, 2017 - 05:14am PT
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Still a champion and winner in my book.
how many climbers used PED's? .
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Sep 24, 2017 - 08:36am PT
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Brennan....Sociopathic contractor... LOL...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 24, 2017 - 08:41am PT
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That's a good idea for a new miniseries on the teevee...
"Tales of Destruction, the Sociopathic Contractor"
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Sep 24, 2017 - 09:30am PT
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When "hero" is applied to any sports persona, I giggle.
I agree.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Sep 24, 2017 - 10:23am PT
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When "hero" is applied to any sports persona, I giggle.
I agree.
+1
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 26, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
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Big breaking story on NCAA basketball players being paid to play! Can you believe it? Amateur athletes in a billion dollar industry cheating by being paid?!!
I just wanted to be the first to say that I am shocked, SHOCKED!, to learn about this.
Carry on, you righteous souls :-)
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
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Sep 27, 2017 - 11:58am PT
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Got all you cycling fans covered with someone 'doing it right' and free of drugs.....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Three world UCI Road Racing Championships in a row!! Great show of respect between himself and Kristoff at the finish line.
Lance who?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Sep 27, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
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Three world UCI Road Racing Championships in a row!! Great show of respect between himself and Kristoff at the finish line.
Great finish, and it was close.
It was nice of Peter to dedicate the race to Scarpelli.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 27, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
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'doing it right' and free of drugs....
Isn't that exactly what was being said of Lance in 2001?
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Tony
Trad climber
Pt. Richmond, CA
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:09pm PT
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I just watched this documentary: "Icarus"
It's a bit OT, but starts out with the filmmaker trying to emulate Lance in a amateur cycling event. He ends up stumbling into the middle of a much bigger scandal, with greater stakes.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
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Yep...there is simply no way to be assured that someone is clean. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior and the past for pro bicycling isn't pretty.
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:23pm PT
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Isn't that exactly what was being said of Lance in 2001?
the world of cycling hit an all time low when Lance and crew lied time and time again about taking the "Blue pill". I think you'll find that the UCI has taken great lengths to clean up pro cycling and how it enforces the rule of "zero tolerance" drug use. Athletes are tested the night before, the day of the race and after the race.
Revised in 2015......some light reading for you gunsmoke.
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/17/47/44/UCITIREN.2016_English.pdf
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
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Hasn't it been said by people in the know that drug detection avoidance technology is often ahead of drug detection?
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Tony
Trad climber
Pt. Richmond, CA
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
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That's certainly the assertion of the Russian doping mastermind in the film I linked above. Of course, the situation with the Sochi Olympics was a bit special in that it was on their home turf, giving great access for the FSB spooks.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:47pm PT
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you'll find that the UCI has taken great lengths to clean up pro cycling and how it enforces the rule of "zero tolerance" drug use. Athletes are tested the night before, the day of the race and after the race.
TDF riders are tested over and over again, including randomly. Lance never (NEVER) tested dirty. Not sure how that's possible, but it shatters the notion that riders who test clean are clean.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 27, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
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Sagan - awesome! Loved to see him win that race! Can you believe it? Three times in a row?! I believe that guy is even awesomer than Lance was, back when I believed Lance was awesome.
And what makes it even more awesome is that Sagan won the stage of the Tour of
California a few years back that my daughter and I rode our bikes to see the finish of, and then when we watched it on TV, we could pick out her and me in the crowd on TV. How awesome is that?
So not only did he manage to win Worlds three times in a row, but he managed to do so while reminding me of a personal connection with my daughter! What a guy! It's almost like he's my best friend! I'll bet he's a liberal, too.
But me, I'm not a cheater in the way I form connections and beliefs and admirations and judgments and criticisms. Me, I'm just a straight-up perceiver of truth!
So sure maybe I made some belief mistakes in the past, but I've learned from my mistakes, and what I've learned to believe is that what I believe this time is definitely true! Definitely! Oh heck, maybe I've know that all along.
I'm really grateful that I have this awesome human ability to still enjoy watching a rider like Sagan race. Aren't we humans great? :-)
Best y'all!
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Sep 27, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
Interesting website about doping cases. It needs to be updated since 2011. This year there have been about 15 cases that I have seen in the public domain.
I would also disagree that the governing bodies of all sports are really doing something to curtail the use of PED's. A very good example is how the governing bodies of sport have dealt with testosterone which is one of the most heavily abused drugs by all athletes.
There are two tests for determining the use testosterone. The first is the TE Ratio test which measure the body's ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Theoretically, if you are taking testosterone then the ratio will go up. This test costs about $30 to perform on a urine sample.
The second test is the GC/IRMS test which uses a Gas Chromatograph then a Mass Spectrometer to determine if exogenous testosterone has been ingested. This test costs $300 to perform on a urine sample.
Because somebody, usually the race or the sports federation, has to pay for the dope testing the World AntiDoping Agency(WADA) didn't want to "burden" these people with added expense of the GC/IRMS test so they have approved the use of both tests.
The problem is that it is exceedingly easy to fool the TE Ratio test usually by taking testosterone right at the beginning of the "no testing" window which runs in the night time hours so that athletes can get sleep.
The WADA could completely shut down the abuse of testosterone by only approving the GC/IRMS test, which is 100% accurate, but they won't do it citing the cost of the test.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Sep 27, 2017 - 05:32pm PT
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Mooch-I read the PDF on the testing protocols; yeah dry stuff. Does anybody know of a complete list of banned substances for testing? Not as in Wiki but an official PDF like the one above, which surprisingly doesn't list the actual substances.
Arne
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 19, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
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Would doping of this nature make a difference in climbing? I was just wondering. For example, two people who are closely matched in Climbing World Cup competition, if one doped in this way, how much of an edge would it give?
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Apr 19, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
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jah, according to some quick googling, so useful only as a ballpark, at the height of his career in 2005 he was making about $30million per year. even after he quit winning the big races, but before the doping admissions, it sounds like he was still making about $15million per year.
so for argument's sake we're looking at say an average of $15million for about 15 years... so likely a little over $200million during his career. [which given he is claimed to have a net worth of around $50million even to this day, would seem to jive...]
and he had to pay a $5million fine.
yeah... that sounds both fair and like a strong deterrent to those that will inevitably follow in his shoes... [aka what a fUckin joke.]
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 19, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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Haven't seen Armstrong's tax returns, but I'm sure it's a cost of doing the business
So he really didn't pay five million
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 19, 2018 - 08:43pm PT
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The actual figure was 33 million not 100 million. There was a potential 3X multiplier if they chose it which accounts for the potential 100 million figure.
I think the government was going to have a very hard time proving fraud as it was known to the feds that the people from USPS who were in charge of handling the sponsorship knew about the doping on the team. You can't defraud somebody if they know what's going on.
My personal feeling is that they should have gone after breach-of-contract which was clearly the case since the contract said no doping.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Apr 19, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
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I thought this horse was already flogged...?
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 19, 2018 - 09:49pm PT
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I agree. It's time to move on. As I said at the beginning of this thread, of the top 20 finishers in the 2005 Tour de France(Lance's last win) only one, Cadel Evans in 8th, hasn't been sanctioned or implicated in a doping case.
Yeah, as Lance himself has admitted, he was a dick. Now, not so much.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 20, 2018 - 08:57am PT
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Bunch of self absorbed sunday quarterback d#@&%e bag climbers! OMG lance lied! Waaa! Tell me how much have you raised or helped out for Cancer research? Or you too busy giving money to eat shitty sushi in the desert!
Lance gave major Hope for people fighting cancer!
Supertopojerkoffs totally jumped the shark.
Armstrong gave hope to many people. Just not people who had cancer.
Problem is Armstrong was a fraud, cheater, liar, and bully.
Just because someone is a role model, or gives to charity does not make them a "saint".
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Apr 20, 2018 - 09:05am PT
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Thanks jonokner.
Cracked me up! ;-)
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 20, 2018 - 10:45am PT
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Never forget! Never forget! Lance = Satan! He did a lot to ruin some lives, too. The guy is classic sociopath.
BAd
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 20, 2018 - 02:00pm PT
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In climbing, when we look those icons in our sport whom we admire, respect and look up to, the Pratts, the Robbins, the Bob Kamps, the Bridwells; then we look at people like Lance, they look pretty bad by comparison. But it is true that the mega-bucks in some of these sports tend to bring out the worst in people. I hope that for his sake, Lance has learned some lessons in compassion, integrity, and truthfulness along the way.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 20, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
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johnokner
just got a letter from Paralyzed Veterans of America asking if they can put my name on their wall of biggest donors (said no, its not why I do it)
Your comments don't apply to everyone here, lighten up.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 20, 2018 - 09:18pm PT
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So LA has done reprehensible things that many of his associates were also doing, but also has done good things, right?
How about his associates?
His threats? Very very bad. Should pay reparations to the threatanees
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Apr 21, 2018 - 06:37am PT
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^^^^
+1
what has been either quickly forgotten, or never paid attention to, by the lance defenders is that this is not just about being a cheat. it’s about being a sociopathic cheat who used his ill gotten position to grind the few honest folks who dared to stand up to him into irrelevance [at that time].
if it weren’t for the latter, i suspect i and most others wouldn’t give two hoots that there have been basically no long term repercussions to what amounts to one more athletic star who turned out to be in need of an asterisk beside their accomplishments... and this indifference would be because our society is in general so in need of sports heroism that we are completely irrational and hypocritical when it comes to the topic of peds and so for at least me personally i don’t have a need to be overly judgemental or invested re cases like say ben johnson or marion jones.
but lancelot is a different kettle of fish. and so while i don’t give a real shIt that he was successful both athletically and financially in a sport that was dirty from top to bottom, i do think there should be some real compensation from him to those folks that he and his lawyers ground into the dirt while he was the top dog. in all likelihood, at this point, that will never happen.
what is insightful about this convo, for me, is re white collar crime in general.
make $200 million based on a lie? and financially grind out those few who dare to say the emperor has no clothes when you are at the height of your power?
all seems to be forgiven by many of the masses if the following is true:
 start a charity where you inspire others to give their money to, so that you can keep the vast majority of your own
don’t physically hurt anybody, just financially threaten those with less power using your team of relatively infinitely resourced lawyers
do something objectively inspirational: this can be something athletic, or maybe build a big pyramid... something shiny and “real” is what is important.
make sure you are in a field where most of your competition are known cheats as well
be white and ideally male as well
follow these simple five rules and you too can, based on a lie, make hundreds of millions, or if you’re really good, billions, and the people will continue to defend you even when you are caught and there are basically no repercussions...
this is insightful because following all or most of these five rules goes a long way toward explaining the cyclical white collar fleecing that happens to the masses in the american led globalized capitalistic economy.
in that regard, i suspect lance is ultimately only a proxy for a lot of some folk’s emotions due to his being an infinitely tiny fingerling relative to the actual full grown and bloated monster fish out there that are in desperate need of a good frying.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 21, 2018 - 06:59am PT
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What nah000 said. Tyler Hamilton cheated, too--of course at the insistence of Lance and the Postal Team--but I carry none of the ill feeling towards him. Read his book, which is excellent, btw, and you'll get the full picture of a gifted, driven athlete who felt like he had no choice if he wanted into the Big Game. Unfortunately, I think he was right. The game was rigged. If Lance had only been about beating the Euro's at their own, crooked game, then, well, it still sucks, but at least you can respect that point of view. I'll show them damn dopin' Euro's! But as I mentioned and nah000 brings up, LA ruined the financial lives of a number of people, just wrecked them. He's a complete, unrepentant psychopathic assh*le. That's why he deserves our enduring derision and disgust.
Cosmic for the win!
BAd
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 21, 2018 - 08:25am PT
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Livewrong!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 21, 2018 - 10:24am PT
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John what a sad angry person.
But don't put words in MY mouth about anything.
We all have feet of clay. Your humanity only can show once the balance sheet is finally tallied.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 21, 2018 - 12:22pm PT
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be white and ideally male as well
It's axiomatic that identity politics snakes into these kinds of discussions, presented as simple truth.
Nothing is simple in this one, so categorical statements are themselves false.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 21, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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make $200 million based on a lie? and financially grind out those few who dare to say the emperor has no clothes when you are at the height of your power?
Happens all the time!
Legalisms aside, though, what made Armstrong’s doping extreme was neither its scope nor its efficacy. What set him apart was the way he exercised his power to abuse teammates and those around him to create the perfect winning machine.
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Trump
climber
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Apr 21, 2018 - 04:23pm PT
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It’s unquestionable that identity politics is going to be presented as unquestionable in these kinds of discussions. And I say that’s simply categorically unquestionable because nothing is simple in these kinds of discussions, so it seems to me that other people’s categorical statements must be categorically false.
Yea, Lance sure did prefer the smell of his own sh#t. Somehow that doesn’t seem so surprising.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 21, 2018 - 08:02pm PT
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I have covered the sport of professional cycling for 40 years. I call BS on the claims that Lance "ruined the financial lives of a number of people."
That's just not true. Those who confronted Lance have either 1) gotten a large $$$ settlement from Lance via a lawsuit 2) been vindicated because they were proven correct when they said Lance doped.
No one has been financially ruined. There were some tough years for a few people, but they have all moved on to bigger and better things. And, Lance has attempted to apologize to these people and make things right.
That doesn't mean Lance wasn't a dick to them. He has admitted that in a number of interviews since his downfall. If you don't want to forgive him that's your choice. But, Lance has tried to be a better person because of all of this. Only time will tell if he really has changed for the better.
ps - and it is untrue that Lance made all the other riders on his team dope. Many of them were doing drugs before Lance came onto the Postal Team. In fact, it was Tyler who was responsible for bringing doping doctors to the USPS Team a year before Lance joined.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 21, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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An interesting article which contradicts
http://deadspin.com/the-ridiculous-saga-of-lance-armstrong-the-cheater-who-1802288537
Ends with the wimpy conclusion
At this point, it is hard to imagine that Armstrong has any secrets left. Through his rise and his fall, the question Who is Lance Armstrong? hung over him even more heavily than it does other champions. He was an evil mastermind or an inspirational avatar, an unrepentant cheater who ruined his sport or a martyr for a sport that has always been dirty. He was a survivor, a beacon of hope to cancer patients, a dad, a drug runner, a podcast host, an unbelievable and unrepentant as#@&%e or a single-minded competitor. In time, though, the answer has emerged as all those or’s melted away. Armstrong’s legacy is complicated because of the contradictions in how cycling works, how the public treats its sports heroes, and what it costs to make history. It’s also complicated because of how complicated Armstrong himself is, and remains. He is the sum of everything he has done, good and bad. With the end of his fight with the government, who he will be in the future is finally up to Armstrong to decide.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 21, 2018 - 10:11pm PT
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ZBrown,
contradicts what? If you read Tyler Hamilton's book he admits that he and several others, at the end of 1996, approached the USPS team principal and asked him to get the riders of the team on a doping program. Lance did not join the team until 1998.
If you read Levi Leipheimer's USADA affidavit he admits that he was doping in 1999 when he rode for the US Domestic Saturn team. He did not join the USPS team until 2000.
Yes, Dave Zabriskie and Christian VDV were most likely pushed into doping because of Lance Armstrong, but if you read their USADA affidavits they admitted that they continued to dope even after leaving Lance's team. So Lance may have pressured them to start, but they continued to use drugs after they left his team and were not under his influence.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 21, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
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zBrown,
if you want to discuss the supposed financial ruin....
Reed Albergotti did not lose his job at the WSJ. He even wrote a book about the whole Lance affair, titled "Wheelmen." I know Reed personally and though he didn't tell me what sort of advance he got for writing the book, given the publisher and his resume it was probably at least mid five figures. He chose to leave the WSJ and move to SF to strike out on his own.
Greg and Kathy Lemond are not destitute. I emceed an event with Greg a couple of years ago and just between the two of us he never even mentioned the fallout from his dealings with Lance. Those two are doing just fine. Sure they could have made more money if Greg's bike line hadn't been dropped by Trek. Greg has enough money to invest in starting his own bike company and also a company which makes carbon fiber components.
Frankie Andreu is a friend of mine and just like Lemond, yes, he and his wife were affected by Lance, but he continues to work in the cycling industry and even race his bike, lately, on a wooden board track. The family is not broke and living on food stamps.
And as far as blacklisting journalists, nobody, except a very few select persons, had any access to Lance when he was winning his 7 Tours de France. Everybody in the cycling media knew that. None of my editors ever put my job on the line because I couldn't get an interview with Lance.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
PUAKO, BIG ISLAND Kohala Coast
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Apr 22, 2018 - 02:01am PT
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Funny how peeps care about court jesters and athletes, all about show and no go.
Lance isn’t that bad in the big picture of life.. he’s no different than a CEO with an agenda.
Rg
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 22, 2018 - 06:48am PT
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Well, it appears Hamilton joined US Postal in 1995, and he says he started doping in 1997. According to the book and a documentary I watched, Lance imposed intense pressure to dope/conform.
BAd
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Apr 24, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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Nothing is simple in this one, so categorical statements are themselves false.
ironic...
if the intent was to point out that the theory as i outlined used language that extended beyond what we can know with certainty in this particular situation?
then sure… point taken.
otoh, if the intent was to make the statement that we can be certain that identity perceptions have not played a role in the public's on average perceptions of mr. armstrong's transgressions and "reparations"?
then no.
not with certainty...
at this time...
within the u.s. of a.
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Apr 25, 2018 - 08:23am PT
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You guys are funny...I too was around the cycling scene during these years. I'm no fan of Lance, but everyone would be wise to remember that there were other players in this scam WAAAY above Lance. Aka Thomas Weisel, Heins Verbruggen, Fat Pat (Mcquaid), Johan.... everyone was in on it....why do you think Lance never tested positive? and to some degree he had(subjective)to lie for these people as well as himself and the sport
edit: btw Froome (the new lance) just tested positive...soooo much for cleaner
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 25, 2018 - 08:51am PT
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if the intent was to point out that the theory as i outlined used language that extended beyond what we can know with certainty in this particular situation?
-
Language rarely equals numbers in the sense that we can categorically say, 2 + 5 = 7, and KNOW this is true in some black and white way. Especially in regards to someone's character as it exists in the world, with all of it's moving parts.
The fact that Lance and much of the press fostered a heroic image that negated a very dark side, which used a kind of scorched earth strategy to all detractors, comes as a surprise only to those believing the narrative in the first place. The sheer blackness of his dark side is what was shocking, not that he had one. I've worked on enough documentaries to know that people rarely want full disclosure. They want an infomercial on themselves. That's Lance light. It's what people do. Not that Lance didn't eat his detractors alive with no remorse. But he also raised a fortune for cancer and did a lot of public service work as well. Part or even most of that might have been to bolster the hero image but the good that was done is evident.
What's more, cycling was a drug culture back then. Virtually all the top riders were doping. Lance was simply the most aggressive at it, taking no captives. Basically riding over anyone standing in his way.
Now we see a guy trying to grope his way back into balance, or find it. The inauthenticity we sense is troubling - that's humanity writ large.
We've all heard it said, there are no heroes, just heroic deeds. Lance pushed both ends of the scale beyond what most of us can recognize, so the picture is wildly distorted compared to "good" or regular folks. He's also a moving target, so saying, Lance IS this is only a provisional. With someone living on such a wide spectrum, most anything we can say about him is "true." He challenges our capacity to forgive - at least for me. The sh#t he did was so amazing, and conversely so rotten that most any evaluation tells a fraction of the story, and never the "real" or entire fandango. "Cheater" and "narcissist" apply, but so do other terms. "What he really is" is human - tragic, amazing, dirty, hacking along.
My one big beef with him is that he has refused to make financial reparations to those whose lives he ruined in terms of money. Till he does that, he won't have made amends, not where it hurts him.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 25, 2018 - 11:33am PT
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Largo,
the only person Lance actually made a significant impact in terms of money is Greg Lemond. Forcing the Trek bicycle company to drop the Lemond line cost Greg a lot of money. Everyone else either made money off of the situation like David Walsh and Floyd Landis or they had to go find another job such as Emma O'Reilly and Mike Anderson. The Andreus are a bit different in that Betsy spent a lot of energy trying to prove that Lance was a doper, but Frankie still works in the cycling industry and even had a TV gig to interview Lance at the Tour de France.
BTW, you are spot on about Lance wanting to control the narrative. In his suit against David Walsh one of the provisions was to add chapters telling his side of the story to David's book. Also, the only journalists Lance regularly gave interviews to had to send the copy back to him for editing before it was published.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 25, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
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Bruce, for some reason I got the impression that Lance had basically bankrupted a score of people though lies and vengeance. If what you're saying is so, that narrative is just as bogus as the hero script.
Go figure...
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 25, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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Largo,
I have been covering professional cycling as a journalist for 40 years and have covered all the major doping cases. I was personally involved in the Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton cases. There is no doubt that Lance behaved very poorly to a number of people during his racing years, but the claims of financial ruin are completely false. Even though Greg Lemond lost his bike line at Trek he still has lots of money.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 25, 2018 - 02:28pm PT
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Did L cheat?
Did L lie about it for years?
Did L threaten people?
Did he follow up in those threats?
So, a better cheater than wrecker?
MOVING RIGHT ALONG TO CURRENT NEWS.
CNN. A former California police officer has been identified as the so-called Golden State Killer believed to have committed 12 killings and at least 50 rapes across California from 1976 to 1986, authorities said Wednesday.
Otherwise, though J.J. DiAngelo was a good cop.
Edit:
There is no known evidence that he was not kind to his dog.
↓↓
Edit2:
Whoops, apparently Joe was shoplifting dog repellant.
At least he didn't spit on the sidewalk, preferring to use a can.
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Apr 25, 2018 - 02:52pm PT
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Z not really, he was fired for shoplifting
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Trump
climber
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Apr 25, 2018 - 03:44pm PT
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“My one big beef with him is that he has refused to make financial reparations to those whose lives he ruined in terms of money. Till he does that, he won't have made amends, not where it hurts him.”
150 years after slavery ended, median black wealth is only 1/13 median white wealth. I’m not gonna hold my breath waiting for that to happen, or expecting that I understand exactly who the bad guys are.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 26, 2018 - 10:55pm PT
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What about the people who never spoke up, because they were worried he would sue, or publically humiliate them? How many of those are/were there?
How much has Lance spent on lawyers? Comparably, has he donated more or less non-tax-deductable money to Livestrong?
You can speculate all you want, but I covered the whole affair from start to finish and, frankly, I can't think of anybody other than Greg Lemond who has suffered significant financial loss. Nobody else.
If you just don't like Lance, I can understand that. He treated a number of people very poorly while he was racing. He took drugs. He lied. But, he didn't ruin anybody's life as far as I can tell and I was right in the middle of the whole thing.
As far as the concern about Livestrong, for the 14 years(1999-2012) that he was involved in the cancer community before his downfall, Lance did an incredible job in all aspects surrounding the fight against cancer. It's hard to be negative about that.
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silverplume
Trad climber
Boulder
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Apr 27, 2018 - 07:35am PT
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Bruce et al: Significant financial loss directly attributable to LA is one thing, but the opportunity cost of exiting cycling because of the culture of doping -- of which LA was clearly a figurehead -- is quite another. I personally know at least a dozen professional cyclists whose careers were effectively ruined because of their decision not to participate in that culture. Two in particular were some of the best cyclists in the US -- if not the world -- and one was a national teammate of LA's who explicitly told me he voluntarily gave up a future in the sport due to direct pressure from folks like LA, Hincapie, Hamilton and others. That may not amount to financial loss directly caused by LA, but it's certainly attributable to the culture of which LA was complicit, and potentially directly caused by the pressure LA put on folks. In that sense lives may not have been ruined, but many people gave up big dreams and plausible futures as pro cyclists.
In terms of LA's involvement with Livestrong, there was a time when he did a lot of good, but he became a liability long before the doping allegations surfaced. A dear friend of mine was responsible for giving the foundation formerly known as the Lance Armstrong Foundation the name and branding we all know as Livestrong. I also have several friends who held prominent leadership roles within the foundation. LA had many conflicts of interest that directly competed with the foundation (particularly when Nike essentially tried to co-opt the brand) and I seem to remember a fracas that resulted when Lance and pals ran a website with a similar name as the foundation and were directly profiting from the brand association. Folks within the foundation were really frustrated and LA apparently didn't give a sh#t. They tried for years to distance themselves from LA due to the harm it was causing. There are lots of sordid details that will probably never be made public, but suffice it to say that what we know of LA's public personality was that much worse in private.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 27, 2018 - 10:36am PT
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You are making the mistake of attributing the doping culture in cycling to Lance and Lance alone. Having covered the sport of professional cycling for 40 years I can tell you that there has been doping in cycling for about as long as there has been professional cycling. Heck it was Tyler Hamilton and several others who brought doping to the USPS team a year before Lance even joined the team. You simply cannot blame Lance for the culture of doping in cycling.
I am sorry that your friends were driven out of the sport. One of my oldest and dearest friends is the only American to ever win the Giro d'Italia. We started racing together. We had many long talks about doping in cycling and how it was affecting his career which was cut short by the introduction of EPO. I completely understand that. But, again, you can't blame Lance for this. There has been a culture of doping in the sport since it's inception.
You are nitpicking about Lance and Livestrong. Every foundation has it's ups and downs and people don't always get along. But, if you step back and look at what Lance did for cancer awareness and the cancer community from 1999-2012 it is hard not to say it was impressive.
BTW, before Lance started winning the Tour de France the TV coverage of the race was almost non-existent. When Lance started winning the Tour we started to get live coverage. Now July is Tour de France month on NBCSN. If you watch the Tour on TV in America in July it's because of Lance. The exposure for cycling from having the Tour on TV is huge and it is entirely due to Lance.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 27, 2018 - 12:04pm PT
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What you see here in some cases is what we all do - try and frame a person in black and white terms. Any attempt to do so is a distortion. Good and bad, that's how we humans roll. It's just in Lance's case his personality magnifies everything beyond recognition. He's a polarizing figure, and that is troubling.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 27, 2018 - 03:14pm PT
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I never paid much attention to cycling after I quit my paper route, so maybe someone who hung in wants to comment on this
Bassons joined FDJ in 1999, but he was treated like sh#t by his teammates and the peloton for speaking out against doping. On Stage 10 of the 1999 Tour, the bulk of the peloton conspired to single out Bassons and intentionally ride slow to isolate him. When they eventually caught him, he was stared down en masse, taken aside by Armstrong, and told that he should quit the sport. Jonathan Vaughters later recalled that “Lance frequently made fun of him in a very merciless and venomous fashion, much like a playground bully.” Bassons abandoned the Tour and retired a few short years later, formally ending a promising career that was effectively ended by refusing to stay silent.
In purely pharmacological terms, Armstrong’s habit of using EPO, testosterone, blood doping, and cortisone is notable for its volume, though the fact that he chemically enhanced his performance during an era in which doing so was a near-universal fact of life at cycling’s highest levels is not necessarily damning. “Everyone was doing it!” really does characterize the top of the sport in the ’90s, and while it provides crucial context for Armstrong’s reign, federal prosecutors have noted that it’s also not strictly relevant to his case. “Regardless of whether every single rider on non-USPS teams was using PEDs, the question for materiality purposes under the [False Claims Act] is whether Armstrong’s compliance with the anti-doping provisions of the Sponsorship Agreement and his false denials of his own PED-use mattered to the USPS,” they wrote in a June 2017 briefing.
Legalisms aside, though, what made Armstrong’s doping extreme was neither its scope nor its efficacy. What set him apart was the way he exercised his power to abuse teammates and those around him to create the perfect winning machine.
EDI
T:
Note to self. Check other sports re MikeL's stmt
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Apr 27, 2018 - 04:43pm PT
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What set him apart was the way he exercised his power to abuse teammates and those around him to create the perfect winning machine.
Alas, the same things could be said for most leaders from any quarter. Maybe even here on ST.
The meek might inherit the earth, but it’s clear they are not in-charge on this plane of existence. Somehow we expect to find immensely powerful people in very important positions who are righteously pure people through and through.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 27, 2018 - 05:54pm PT
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What set him apart was the way he exercised his power to abuse teammates and those around him to create the perfect winning machine.
(BTW, it would be nice to have a source for this quote)
That's not fact, that somebody's opinion and like a lot of the copy written about Lance it is totally overblown. I know/knew almost every member of the USPS cycling team and yes, there were a few like Dave Zabriskie and Floyd Landis who got treated poorly in several instances that they told me about, but on the whole the other riders were treated well. I don't know if it happened every year but at least a few times when Lance won the Tour de France he wrote a personal check to each rider for $40,000. That probably doesn't qualify as abuse.
A really good book about Lance that was written by a real(TM) journalist is "Lance Armstrong's War" by Dan Coyle. Dan lived in Girona for over a year to get the real inside story on who Lance really is. It's not sensational and overblown like a lot of the stuff quoted in this thread. It is real, hard core, good journalism.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Apr 27, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
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I like to remember reading about Lance making his miraculous comeback from cancer and doing a training camp with Bob Roll in the south and riding in the rain... I remember Lance eating apple fritters after he was done with his treatment...Whenever i eat an apple fritter i think about Lance... Sure , there's the doping scandal but like Largo says it's not all black and white...
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Apr 27, 2018 - 08:08pm PT
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Yeah, you've got to wonder what it takes to be at the top. I think I know but.......
I'm currently reading a Tour De France book that's not too bad and is holding my interest - written by a rider. Am currently at a section about Armstrong;
https://www.amazon.com/Ventoux-Sacrifice-Suffering-Giant-Provence/dp/1471113000
I want to read more about Greg LeMond since learning he trained on the Eastern Sierra passes. I've ridden most of those a number of times.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 27, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
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zBrown,
one of the problems you have when writers who don't follow the sport of cycling in depth like the person who wrote the Deadspin article you quoted is that they don't know the whole story.
In the Deadspin article Jonathan Vaughters is quoted about how Lance treated Christophe Bassons in the peloton. The interesting thing is that Jonathan Vaughters treated riders the same way. One time Vaughters made such disparaging remarks about a rider on another team that it shocked his own teammates so much that they told the rider in question what Vaughters had said.
That doesn't make what both Lance and Vaughters did was OK, but it does point out that this was a pretty common practice in the European pro peloton and not an example of bad behavior only exhibited by Lance.
As another example was when Team 7-Eleven rode their first Giro in 1985. Every time there was a crash they, being the most inexperienced team, got blamed and their riders got pushed to the back by the other teams. It's not right or fair, but it's just the way the peloton works sometimes.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 27, 2018 - 10:06pm PT
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As my friend Vinny was fond of saying, “It’s just business.”
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 27, 2018 - 10:23pm PT
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Reilly,
absolutely! I could tell you so many stories about what goes on in the pro peloton and not all of them are good. One European professional team (not Lance's USPS Team), made all their riders take drugs. Then when one of their riders tested positive the team, much like the Impossible Mission Force, denied that they had anything to do with it and promptly fired the guy. Now the guy is a fired, doper. He never rode in the pro peloton again!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Apr 27, 2018 - 10:32pm PT
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7-11 crashes...? There was the classics race where Bob Roll accidentally crashes the great Sean Kelly a couple times...Kelly gets back on his bike just as they're passing a cemetery ... Kelly points to the cemetery and in his high-pitched voice tells Bob he's going to end up there if he crashes him again...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 28, 2018 - 06:38am PT
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So no one is denying that Lance Armstrong did it, it's just that in cycling I guess they were all doing it.
When were they called out?
Next up:
Beisbol and football steriods
The triathelete world (from whence Lance Armstrong came)
Would the "lack" of big money in triathlon really mean there isn't significant doping? I highly doubt it. In some of my local bike races, there was strong suspicion of PEDs usage by some of the athletes. I mean, we're talking non-pro bike racing and there was suspicion. I think ego and winning Ironman is far more than enough and that many if not nearly all Ironman contestants are using PEDs or doping in some way. Your thoughts?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Apr 28, 2018 - 06:52am PT
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zBrown: Check other sports re MikeL's stmt
When I wrote that above, I was thinking of "leaders" in business and politics.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 28, 2018 - 07:27am PT
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Bruce, it's great to have you here on our Forum
Looking forward to the new Pro Season
Please keep us on your radar
I need to check my TV recorder program, need to make sure it catches all the classics
as far as Lance goes, I've moved on
what proof do we have LeMond wasn't a doper?
Do I care?
I enjoy the sport w/o the soap operas
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