The Vietnam War: A conversation with Ken Burns and Lynn Novick

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Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 25, 2017 - 11:51am PT

A bit of history:

America made the first atomic bomb
America dropped the first atomic bombs on civilians
America threatened to drop atomic bombs during the Korean war

And now: stupid is repeated by a Korean hothead...

And still:

Long live the American and the Korean people. It's not facts that are dangerous, it's atomic bombs...

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 26, 2017 - 09:23am PT
Marlow ..... so what?

We did put those first A-bombs to good use.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 26, 2017 - 10:44am PT
According to Antony Beevor it was the A-bomb that stopped Stalin from continuing on from Berlin into western Europe.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Sep 26, 2017 - 11:43am PT
Marlow ..... so what?

We did put those first A-bombs to good use.

Seems to me the first one was put to good use (in a manner of speaking), the second one maybe seemed a little more dubious.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 26, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
Without those A bombs I would not be here. Pops was in the ETO and did not have enough points to go home after VE day. Eventually he would have gone to the pacific and likly been slaughtered.. they had real war back then with real casultys well beyond the scale that any modern conflict could even fanthom... Over 60 million people were killed in WW2 about 3% of the world population.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Sep 26, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
Truman, who apparently was not aware of the Manhattan Project when FDR died and he became the POTUS, on making the decision to drop the bomb...
When an interviewer asked Truman whether the decision was morally difficult to make, he responded, “Hell no, I made it like that,” snapping his fingers. In fact, Truman never publicly acknowledged doubts or misgivings. When Edward R. Murrow asked him in a 1958 interview if he had any regrets about using the bomb or about any of his other presidential decisions, Truman responded, “Not the slightest--not the slightest in the world.”

Here's what Truman said to Oppenheimer...
Nor did he welcome others expressing doubts. Upon meeting Oppenheimer for the first time on October 25, 1945, Truman, with his typical insecurity-masking bluster, asked Oppenheimer to guess when the Soviets would develop a bomb. When Oppenheimer admitted that he did not know, Truman declared that he did: “Never.” Unnerved, Oppenheimer said at one point, “Mr. President, I feel I have blood on my hands.” Truman responded angrily. “I told him the blood was on my hands—to let me worry about that,” he recounted to David Lilienthal. Truman liked this story enough to repeat it on several occasions, his responses varying slightly, but his contempt for Oppenheimer always evident. He told Acheson, “I don’t want to see that son-of-a-bitch in this office ever again,” and another time called him a “cry-baby scientist.”


We in America are living among madmen. Madmen govern our affairs in the name of order and security. The chief madmen claim the titles of general, admiral, senator, scientist, administrator, Secretary of State, even President. And the fatal symptom of their madness is this: they have been carrying through a series of acts which will lead eventually to the destruction of mankind, under the solemn conviction that they are normal responsible people, living sane lives, and working for reasonable ends.

Soberly, day after day, the madmen continue to go through the undeviating motions of madness: motions so stereotyped, so commonplace, that they seem the normal motions of normal men, not the mass compulsions of people bent on total death. Without a public mandate of any kind, the madmen have taken it upon themselves to lead us by gradual stages to that final act of madness which will corrupt the face of the earth and blot out the nations of men, possibly put an end to all life on the planet itself.

Lewis Mumford, March 1946...seems even more appropriate today.

http://apjjf.org/-Peter-J.-Kuznick/2479/article.html
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 26, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
The first bomb should have been dropped on an unpopulated mountainous area or, second best, a military target. The Japanese should have been given a chance to see the bomb's destructive capabilities and throw down the towel before we slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians. Anyone who says that racism wasn't a factor has their head firmly up their ass.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 26, 2017 - 04:39pm PT
Welcome to The Vietnam War: A conversation with bearbreeder and bearbreeder.

Not that you've said anything to offend.

But I'm not certain of your convictions.

--Raven Ranter
:0)
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 26, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
Jim, there was pleanty of racisim involved in the war but don't you think they would have just as redily used it on the germans if the germans had fought as hard as the japanese? we certailny did not pull any punches firebombing German citys. just saying that if germany was still going strong in late 45 hitting London with Buzz bombs and inflicting large casuultys on Alied troops my bet is they would have dropped the bomb. Churchill wanted to use gas on germany and was only talked out of it by FDR and Ike because they did not want to escalate into chem warfare. not so much on moral grounds but mostly for practicality. .
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 06:25pm PT
Yeah, Americans were largely racist during the war in the Pacific.
Hell, Japanese American citizens were penned.
The Japanese also had their own bigotry, as does all of mankind. Human beings are tribal.
(How many Americans in that war ever met an Asian person before going into the service? How many Japanese in that war ever met Caucasians?)
Blacks, whites, hispanics, calling Vietnamese people "gooks" back in that SE Asia war.
Those tribal differences always surface in tough times.
Economic boom times do wonders for harmony.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 28, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
VE DAY was in may 1945, BIGGAH BOOOMBA wuz aug 1945

Ole man of steel had plenty of time to invade western europe if he wanted to ....

So you're saying they didn't start any work on the A bomb until after VE Day?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
The first bomb should have been dropped on an unpopulated mountainous area or, second best, a military target. The Japanese should have been given a chance to see the bomb's destructive capabilities and throw down the towel before we slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians. Anyone who says that racism wasn't a factor has their head firmly up their ass.

My father was a test pilot during the war working on a secret project (Cadillac II) to develop a capability to warn aircraft carriers of kamikaze attacks. After the war those systems eventually became what we know of today as AWACS. He always claimed we could have dropped the bomb in the middle of Tokyo Harbor and it would have ended the war just as surely, but that folks running the program in the pentagon wanted to know what the effects on a city would be.
plund

Social climber
OD, MN
Sep 29, 2017 - 08:12am PT
Last night's episode had me bawling on my couch. The protesting vets (fenced out of a building in DC) hurling their medals back & enumerating the reasons why was stunning, as was the segment about the Vietnam memorial wall, its conception & execution. Incredibly moving.

I had my doubts about the Burns treatment, kind of 'how long can we kick this dead horse', but I've found each episode to date to be enlightening and insightful, if not downright shocking in its exposition of historical facts of which I was unaware.

Heroes tossing back their medals...as trenchant a commentary on the war as could be made.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 2, 2017 - 01:55pm PT
So how many U.S. citizens "served" in Vietnam (not how many were drafted)


The military draft brought the war to the American home front. During the Vietnam War era, between 1964 and 1973, the U.S. military drafted 2.2 million American men out of an eligible pool of 27 million. Although only 25 percent of the military force in the combat zones were draftees, the system of conscription caused many young American men to volunteer for the armed forces in order to have more of a choice of which division in the military they would serve
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Oct 2, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
"The first bomb should have been dropped on an unpopulated mountainous area or, second best, a military target. The Japanese should have been given a chance to see the bomb's destructive "

Well since they didn't surrender after the first bomb on Hiroshima, it took the second bomb to even begin to convince the fanatical Japanese.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Oct 2, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
Not all historians agree that the Hiroshima & Nagasaki bombs were the primary motivation for Japanese surrender at the end of WWII

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-05/hiroshima-bombing-did-not-lead-japanese-surrender-anniversary/6672616

Many historians say the bombings did not lead to the Japanese surrender, and the Soviet declaration of war on Japan two days later was a bigger shock.

It put an end to any hope the Soviets would negotiate a favourable surrender for Japan.

The severely-weakened Japanese Imperial army had no capacity to fight the Soviets on a second front in China and Northern Japan.

Japanese historian Yuki Tanaka said the country had no choice because the Soviets would have killed Emperor Hirohito, seen as the heart and soul of imperial Japan.

"The Soviet Union would demolish the emperor system and they would execute the emperor as well as all members of the royal family," he said.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 2, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
different time, different place. can't monday morning QB that one. Over 60 million casultys in WW11. In perspective those kinds of numbers make the current wars look pretty quiet. My dad did however point out that even a small gunfight that did not make the news seems pretty darn big when you are in it. It is a good thing we won that one. My last name (Goldsmith) would have been a death sentance had we lost. Gen Cleamay, Army air force pointed out that if we don't win they will hang us for war crimes. He was refering to the fire bombing of Tokyo which I believe killed more people than the A bombs a few months later... I suspect the fire bombing of Dresden would have sent some folks to the gallows as well had we not won the war.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 2, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
Date-o-Rama

August 6
August 8
August 9
September 2

Data-o-rama

9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era (Aug 5, 1964 – May 7, 1975).

8,744,000 GIs were on active duty during the war (Aug 5, 1964 – March 28, 1973).

2,709,918 Americans served in Vietnam , this number represents 9.7% of their generation.

Quiz answers

Hiroshima
Russia declares war on Japan
Nagasaki
Japan surrenders

Many historians say the bombings did not lead to the Japanese surrender, and the Soviet declaration of war on Japan two days later was a bigger shock.


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 2, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
Saw it all, wonderfully well done!

A blast from the past for me was the part with Major Charlie Beckwith. I was on a mission training problem with him in the Fort Bragg area in 1964. He was quite a character, he wore a red scarf around his neck and fashioned himself as the second coming of George Custer. No....he didn’t have a Vietnam version of the Little Bighorn, he died in bed.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2017 - 07:45am PT
Just finished it.

This tragedy is destined to be repeated as long as corporate interest use the same playbook- Insert hand choosen, third world leaders to be judge, jury and executioner to expedite the exploitation of workers and recourses. Of course, call it a Democracy to legitimize the defense of "the will of the people".

The Vietnamese people turned to a flawed ideology because they were utterly failed by greed and corruption that originated in the board rooms and war rooms of America. As flawed as communism is, we often manage to make it a better choice than what we offer.

The Shaw
Pinichet
Marcos
Samosa
Batista
Medici
Saddam Hussein
Hosni Mubarak
King George III

Corporate greed, oppressive leaders, freedom fighters and dead American soldiers just seems to be baked into the cake.
Messages 121 - 140 of total 151 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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