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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 28, 2017 - 10:58am PT
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Hi All!
Let the fun of asking advice from this group commence!!! ;)
I've been having pretty bad back pain where almost every position causes shooting pain and throbbing. This is nothing new, as I've had this issue since I was 14, and it comes and goes with no warning. But when it goes from a day of pain, to more than a week, it's time to learn how to cope.
I haven't been able to do more than short mellow walks for a week now and I'm getting antsy. I even tried stuff where I hang, no weight on the legs, and even that hurts too much!
So, barring anything related to water (I have a serious aversion to water activities), what are some physical activities you would suggest to keep a body moving and have some chance at maintaining a minimum fitness level?
Thanks in advance!
Cheers
LS
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Jul 28, 2017 - 11:03am PT
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pilates
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 28, 2017 - 11:04am PT
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Go to a doctor and find out what is wrong. You can make things much worse if you keep pushing when injured.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2017 - 11:19am PT
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Thank c wilmot
I know what's wrong. Way back in the day, I had a back injury that changed my life. The second thing the doc told me was that I'd be managing a compromised back for the rest of my life.
So I am...and am always looking for ideas on how to do better.
Thanks!
Cheers
LS
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 28, 2017 - 11:29am PT
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Well- if walking does not cause pain then that is probably the best exercise. I also find laying flat on my back on a hard surface helps alleviate some pain. Ditto with a hot bath and some cannabis. You should already know how far you can push your back so try and keep it in that realm. Some say yoga helps but for me at least my back is too damaged to see any benifit. Same with swimming. Remember- things can get worse- so be careful
I went from hiking 20+ miles a day no problem to barely being able to do 10. Once your back starts affecting your legs and hips it really intrudes on your ability to walk and do pretty much anything.
Also try to remain positive.i know how frustrating it can be to want to do something only to be reminded of your physical limitations due to injuries. That said- sitting around will aggravate a back injury just as much as overworking it will. It's kind of a catch 22
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Jim Herrington
Mountain climber
New York, NY
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Jul 28, 2017 - 11:32am PT
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I've had some car wreck injuries to my back in the past and I deal with moderate back pain that fluctuates. Usually it's worse when I'm stressed or not taking care of myself, not getting exercise, not eating well, etc.
Yoga has helped my back a lot, but you need to be careful with it and choose which poses to avoid. In general it seems to lengthen and strengthen my back/body which overall reduces my pain. 3 times a week does wonders for me and I immediately notice things going downhill if I miss those yoga classes.
Swimming is also great for my back, but sounds like you don't like that.
Anything that strengthens your core, stomach, back and obliques will be good. I focus on that a lot and it also helps me. Most back pain seems to be nerves getting pinched by vertebrae in some manner. If you can try to maintain perfect posture as much as possible and keep the spine aligned, it can help.
That's all obvious advice I guess. I'm no doctor, I only know what works for me. Good luck!
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 28, 2017 - 11:35am PT
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What was the injury and where in your spine is the pain? Lower back I'm assuming.. Pain going down back of your legs? Weakness/tingling in the feet or toes?
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Jul 28, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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Bong rips.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 28, 2017 - 11:37am PT
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Dig ditches, dig holes, do hard manual labor is the only cure .....
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 28, 2017 - 11:37am PT
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back pain is almost always nerves being pushed on by either bone or disc material
your prior injury may well have now progressed to a partially collapsing, bulging disc
solution: don't do anything to further hurt yourself, instead call your primary care doctor and tell them you want them to schedule an MRI on your spine, the upper or lower, where the pain is
when you get the MRI have them send the written report and/or image disc to their in network spine surgeon who will look at it and meet you to tell you exactly what is wrong and what can
be done about it
I have had four spine surgeries now, last one putting in a titanium rod and screws....
your pain has been going a long time, it will not go away on its own, get an MRI
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 28, 2017 - 11:40am PT
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Dig ditches, dig holes, do hard manual labor is the only cure .....
Add lifting rocks and you have the reasons I have the back of a man in his seventies while being in my mid thirties...
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
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Heh!
Love it Dingus, sounds like a plan! But the white pants under the loincloth are a cop out!
It's primarily lower back pain, as per standard for about 75% of the human population. :)
Werner - you're absolutely right. Just thinking about doing hard labor is making my back feel better. Or maybe that's just imagining a bunch of burly dudes doing hard manual labor...while shirtless.... :D
But really, carry a pack with both rope and rack is plenty of manual labor for me - thank you!
Norton - HA! You are spot on, I've been planning on getting an MRI actually, so we're thinking along the same lines!
Yoga has never called to me, I've always preferred self driven calisthenics, but this shooting pain makes me wonder...
Thanks all! Keep it coming!
Cheers
LS
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Jul 28, 2017 - 01:53pm PT
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Dig ditches, dig holes, do hard manual labor is the only cure .....
I laughed so hard my f*#king back went out..
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 28, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
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Lol ...
You got it right with Yoga. It's the best .....
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jul 28, 2017 - 02:04pm PT
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It depends on what you really have.
I have lots of experience as a patient and have learned to manage it very well.
While you have pain do NOT stretch. It is often caused by a muscle spasm. Stretching can make it much worse. Activites that relax it will help. Light massage, sitting in a spa, isolate and rest that muscle. Calcium & magnisum suppliments target muscle spasms.
Long term I got a teeter-hang up. Any kind of inversion therapy that does not stress other body parts can prevent the back pain from starting.
MD's will give you muscle relaxers.
Chiros will adjust you. Some are good. Some are not as good. I don't like adjustments and prefer milder therapies.
WARNING: Is it really back pain? Get checked for other organ difficluties. I know a woman who went through years of treatment for back pain and found it was actually an ovarian cyst of epic proportions flopping around and stressing other things. Apparently this is common but doc's tend to miss it.
Hope you get a handle on it like I have.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jul 28, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
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shoveling mud has done wonders to my back
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jul 28, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
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I don't have too much first hand, but the first thing that came to mind was inversion on a teeter rack, like mentioned above.
Gravity assisted pressure relief, no?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 28, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
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LS,
Yer...
gunna...
die!
(Just filling in for Locker now that he's retired)
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jul 28, 2017 - 02:55pm PT
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Hey, Lady: Can you recline, like on a couch? No, I'm not talking about Netflix binging. I've been an enthusiast of recumbent cycling for over ten years. I did not get into it because of a bad back, but I've found that when my back does act up, I can still ride. During an epic recumbent trike tour with my wife and our hound from Jasper, Alberta, to the Mexico border along the Rockies, I suffered a severe flare up in my lower back. Lots of different actions were extremely painful--and I know you understand the feeling--but I was always able to ride. The seats can be customized with different placement and thickness of padding to accommodate the individual. I always need a little extra lumbar support, for example.
My two wheeler:
Our tandem (we also have single trikes, which we took on that Rocky Mtn. tour}:
Single trike hauling Django in CO. RIP Django the Wonder Dog:
These things are HUGE fun. Check 'em out.
BAd
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Jul 28, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
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I know for me inversion was the worst thing I could do.
My original injury was 42 years ago. On a race track I high sided my bike at about 140. Landed on my left hip. The next two years the wife would help me on the bike & wire my left foot to the footpeg. And after a few years of hard work I got better & or could deal with the pain. From time to time it would flair up but no biggie until 2013, when I fell walking my dogs and could not get up. The pain was over the top. Two MRI's & a ct scan later the earlier fractures of L4 & L3 that I did not know about had healed fine, but now the disc between L5, L4, L3 were bulging out. It took 3 shots & micro surgery to get me in a place I could start to walk without help again.
Pilates first till you are out of pain, then yoga & anything that helps keep the muscles around the injury strong.
Best of luck to you.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 28, 2017 - 04:05pm PT
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There's guy on the Internet, a weight training guy who claims he has helped 10,000 get over back problems. He had some photos showing that yoga, stretching, and pilates do not increase the density of the muscle fibers. He says he encounters lots of people who do those sorts of things, but still have problems. He says you need progressive resistance. I have experimented with it, and find that weights are the way to get over back problems. You just have to start slow and easy. Of course, there are many different sorts of problems, but his perspective helped me.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jul 28, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
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I know you ruled it out but swimming probably is the best option for staying active.
Depending on your exact problem, muscle relaxers might help.
Heating pads, bong hits, and alcohol are the dirt bag version.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 28, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
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Dig ditches, dig holes, do hard manual labor is the only cure .....
On a par with his knowledgeable posts on the Mind thread. Ignore.
As Norton suggests, get MRIs and X-rays, and consult a spinal surgeon (counsel against his/her PA). You'll probably have to wait several months to get in. But even then it may not be clear where the problem lies. You can have a disastrous lower spine and still be relatively symptom-free. I speak from experience. I now do pull-ups pain-free, but simple push-ups cause problems. Good luck.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 28, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
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BAd, don't you need a special license for that rig?
Hi tech rollin' junk show!
Severe back pain is ALWAYS helped by digging ditches! LOL!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 28, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
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I go through cycles of back pain from a overuse injury incurred about 10 years ago (or maybe a bit more).
From time-to-time I do things that really aggravate it, though what "it" is isn't known, the MRI didn't reveal anything specific. After I realized that crouching over the handlebars of a road bike while cranking hard was a trigger I had to find something else to do.
That is walking, mostly, and also riding my Elliptigo. I think the benefits of those two exercises are that they stabilizing muscles are involved being fully weight bearing in a "natural" way.
Yoga helped in a similar way, helping build up a whole lot of muscles that were neglected by a focus on just a few activities (mostly climbing).
When I had aggravated my back I eventually learned (the hard way) that letting it heal first then going back to activities was the quickest road to recovery. In particular, there was a 6 month period of profound back pain which I caused by not letting it heal. This was sciatica bad enough that it interfered with my bowl movements (which basically weren't happening because of the nerve impingement).
So now when I get that well known feeling of over doing it, I just stop activity until the back is recovered again. Walking is ok for me, but just taking it easy and letting whatever happened stop happening.
I know it's hard for active people to do that, but since I have been, the down periods have been a lot shorter, and I'm usually back to my activities much quicker.
I also replaced mega-doses of Ibu with icing on the injured location... works better I think (for me) then the 2400 mg/day load I was taking during the nadir of that long period...
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Hubbard
climber
San Diego
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Jul 28, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
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I'm with the duck on this one: dig holes. My job as a tree service requires digging out stumps from time to time. I have back problems as well once in a while. I have bills to pay too so that means sometimes I have to do slave level work when I think I should just rest. Against all odds, every time I have been forced to dig, it has turned out well. Your problem could be different.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jul 28, 2017 - 08:09pm PT
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I at first thought that I could not say anything helpful, but still felt a lot of sympathy.
My Dad was once told by his doctor, "Your back is a disaster zone." But Dad lived pretty happily to 92.
One of my jobs was in the Department of Anesthesiology at the University of Washington. I learned how debilitating chronic pain can be and how hard it is to find effective remedies.
The docs at UW talked about this guy John Bonica, who had as a doctor asked himself why pain management was not a medical specialty. He made it into one.
Maybe have a look at his book, The Management of Pain.
He knew what he was talking about.
What many do not know is that John suffered terribly from his own chronic pains. Too many years of wrestling led to arthritic changes in his spine and major joints; he had four spine operations and countless hip and shoulder procedures. He probably had more nerve blocks and trigger-point injections than anyone else on the planet.
http://www.iasp-pain.org/JohnBonica
And he had an interesting (or you could say difficult) life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bonica
I wonder if the water aversion should be fixed? Swimming offered relief to Bonica.
I also dislike water, but don't have muck back pain, either.
Best wishes.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 29, 2017 - 07:29am PT
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MH2, Small World Dept note: my bro-in-law worked at the UW Pain Clinic for years.
He retired yesterday! Go Huskies! :-)
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jul 29, 2017 - 09:38am PT
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SWIM
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 29, 2017 - 10:54am PT
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I have sciatica..Lake Kayaking for some reason seems to alleviate the pain..Is it from using the core , steering the boat with the hips and torquing the stomach on each paddle stroke...? Riding up steep grades out of the saddle on my road bike also helps...My back issues would probably vanish if i had more time to ride and kayak...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 29, 2017 - 11:13am PT
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Reilly... How's your back after 4 years of spearing receivers...?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jul 29, 2017 - 11:42am PT
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When somebody says they have back pain and somebody else offers advice:
It is sort of like saying my car has a problem and people offering advice without knowing anything more than that "it has a problem".
There are lots of ways for a back to go wrong.
When I"m having back problems, which is most of the time, anymore. It is very sensitive to posture. Contorting around in some Yoga pose is the last thing I want to do. But if your back is otherwise doing ok, I could see that Yoga could help develop and keep muscles in shape.
Keeping good posture (both sitting and standing) can go a long ways also.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Jul 29, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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Sex marathons always seem to make my nerve pain diminish...
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jul 29, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
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Go to Lembert Dome, and slide down the left Water Crack(facing out of course).
Don't know if it will help, but it will take your mind off the pain, and you will have lots of fun. Werner can probably help you on that one.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 30, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
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Hi,
I'm certified to teach Pilates, so I have a bias and will second Frumy's advice. BUT,
You must find a Pilates teacher who, like myself, studied at a high level including work with physical therapists. It is very important that your Pilates teacher has at least the basic knowledge to work with people, like yourself, who have "special conditions." This person will have a basic base of knowledge to be able to communicate with your doctor about your specific issue.
One way to test a teacher is to tell her/him that you have a bulging disc, posterior, lumbar spine (even if this is not the case,) and ask about your program. You should get an answer along the lines of "Okay, we'll need to avoid any exercises in spinal flexion until you're stronger. This will take some time." If you don't get an answer along this line it's time to go.
You've heard about abdominal support of your spine, and core strength. Pilates defines core as the as the direct muscular connection from your inner thighs, between your knees, up through your pelvic floor, through you INNER abdominals to your diaphragm and the base of your rib cage. This is the muscular connection which lengthens and supports your spine, not your "six pack."
Do not do sit ups or crunches ever once for the rest of your life.
Edit. Mention was made above about Yoga contortions. Any Yoga teacher who understands your individual situation should never lead you into any "contortions." Of course, like Pilates, this means private sessions with the right teacher.
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duncan
climber
London, UK
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Jul 31, 2017 - 02:49am PT
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Commiserations! Severe back pain can be depressing, disabling, and frustrating when there are so many conflicting messages.
I've been studying back pain for the past 50 years, and if anyone says they know where back pain comes from, they're full of sh#t.
Alf Nachemson (Founding Editor of Spine)
Not picking out any individual here but most of the diagnostic suggestions above are inaccurate and unhelpful. Disc bulges don’t cause back pain, they are normal age-related changes like grey hair and wrinkles, very common in people without back pain. True nerve entrapment is unusual and usually indicated by leg pins and needles or numbness.
LS didn't ask for a diagnosis so it's funny how many folk insist on offering one! These pseudo-diagnoses are often unhelpful because they usually create a picture of a weak and failing back. This mental image is highly disabling for many people - often more disabling than the pain itself.
An MRI is useful in two instances: if a dangerous pathology is suspected (as in locker’s post) or if contemplating back surgery for apparently nerve-related symptoms. Neither are suggested by what LS has said, but only an MD can confirm this. An MRI is unlikely to diagnose back pain because - as Prof. Nachemson eloquently put it - most back pain cannot be diagnosed.
LS, your instinct to ask for activities to try is a good one and you've had lots of great suggestions. What is interesting is how varied they are: stretch/don’t stretch, relax the muscles/strengthen the muscles, invert/don’t invert, Pilates helped/Pilates didn’t help, do resistance training (or dig holes)/heavy loads are bad for you. Take-home message: almost any activity is good for someone. The best type of physical activity is the one that works for you, this might include stomach crunches or digging holes. Nothing is prohibited if it helps you. Try different stuff, gently to start with, your body will let you know if it's the right or wrong for you, and you're unlikely to do yourself any harm.
What works for me:
Short term, during an acute episode: two days rest with prescription and non-prescription medication and ice packs. I used to rest longer but gradually realised I recovered better if I got going faster. Then ease back into activity and lay off the meds. pretty quickly. Best activity for me is easy climbing (really!), even if it hurts a bit to start, especially if it is somewhere nice. Something about focusing elsewhere whilst moving in a meaningful way?
Long-term prevention: I’ve been a lot more resilient since following a regular bodyweight training programme. This has bits of gymnastics and bits of Pilates in it. The main thing is to be consistent, I need to exercise two or three times a week and I notice the difference when I let this slip, which of course I do because I’m human. Better management of life's psychological stresses is a work-in-progress: it’s usually emotional factors that trigger my flare-ups. It’s worth thinking beyond the usual physical suspects - like sitting and lifting - when trying to identity what tips the balance the wrong way.
Disclosure: I suffer from intermittent back pain (like 75% of the world) and leg pain and pins and needles. Most of the time I manage it and it doesn't stop me doing what I want to do. I’m a pain management PT and professor and do research in this area.
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rincon
climber
Coarsegold
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Jul 31, 2017 - 07:16am PT
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You have a "serious aversion to water activities"?
Sad.
You are missing out!
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2017 - 08:29am PT
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Something about focusing elsewhere whilst moving in a meaningful way
Tried that this weekend and it was great! Morale can be a mental challenge for me.
Moving in a meaningful way, that's the kicker. I have a daily/weekly pattern of exercise to keep me from falling apart on approaches. It's worked, and has the bonus of mitigating the side effects of my raging food addiction. But none of the activities are possible with my, so I'm researching alternatives.
Bodyweight exercises have always appealed to my time management and budget. That said, they don't build cardio like...well...cardio. And I need that cardio. Without it, my food addiction starts contributing to my back pain (it kinda already has).
Still trying things out. So far it looks like long walks are in my future. But as the days get shorter, I need to find things that move muscles in meaningful way, remind my heart and lungs how to kick into gear, and doesn't aggravate my back. Alas, my former alternate activity of talus hopping is no longer an option.
Might as well ask for a new back. ;)
Thanks for all the suggestions, and please keep them coming. (I have an app for info sifting)
:)!
Cheers
LS
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 31, 2017 - 08:48am PT
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Look up Active Isolated Stretching. I work with a population with LBP and some of the flexibility programs for lumbar and thoracic work well. If you don't mind me asking, what is your diagnosis? That in itself should guide your exercise plan as to precautions/contraindications. Many times LBP can be a result of thoracic immobility which creeps down and involves the low back, obliques, glutes and hips. Good luck with getting relief....keep moving though.
Peace
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jul 31, 2017 - 09:03am PT
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Whoa, food addiction can definitely suck. Or maybe it's the camera.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 31, 2017 - 09:12am PT
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And I need that cardio. Without it, my food addiction starts contributing to my back pain...
you might want to look into this, as I'm not sure that cardio does what you think it does... certainly increased physical activity with constant food intake will result in weight loss (to a point).
I had always thought this cadio-weight connection was true, but I realized that when I was doing strength training that I lost weight much quicker than with a similar amount of cardio.
Managing weight is more about managing what you eat then exercising. The human physiology and behavior is well adapted to food scarcity, which was more the normal experience 10,000 years ago. I find that when I'm climbing a lot I don't have the opportunity to eat as much, and taking 3 days a week like that (not that I'm up to it right now) can make a significant dent in calorie intake. While the exercise helps, the unavailablity of food is probably the bigger effect.
When hiking the JMT last summer with my daughter the same thing happened, basically the 2500 Cal/day we took didn't get eaten, more like 2000 Cal/day, and the days were consistently strenuous (but not too much), and happened without a lot of food intake (for me). In 8 days I only lost 5 pounds (works out to roughly -437 Cal/day ). It would be interesting to see what the weight difference would be if I went on a diet of 2000 Cal/day not on the trail.
Probably wouldn't be possible because of the ubiquitous availability of food, and human nature.
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robert jones
Trad climber
santa cruz,ca
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Jul 31, 2017 - 09:53am PT
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The info below may be counter intuitive to much of what you have learned but if you watch their videos, read their articles, and in general research that train of thought I think you will come out of your current situation stronger and in less pain if any.
Dr. Austin Baraki
June 25 ·
I remember this guy showing up a full 2 hours early to our workshop at @untamedstrength to start his daily mobility routine. I let him do his thing, we got through the workshop, and a few days later I received an email from him asking for advice:
He had been experiencing low back pain for 2 years associated with tingling in his right toe. He got MRI which showed an L4/L5 disc bulge. With this finding at age 22, he was terrified. He tried months of physical therapy, chiropractic treatment, massages, and saw multiple physicians who said his pain was discogenic, and aggravated by “tightness” in the hamstrings and lower body. He wrote, “when I mentioned I do mobility work for 90 mins a day, they had no further advice for me.” They told him he would have to just live with his pain.
After our workshop he decided to try our advice, get some coaching, and focus on training. Today, about four months later, I received a follow-up message:
“It's only after implementing all your suggestions have I truly realized how right you guys were. Today I managed to squat 315x5x3, which has always been a long time goal of mine, but now after understanding where SS is coming from, I realize I have a lot more in me and hopefully 405 will be on the bar soon.
“I know last time I was very concerned about my back pain, but you mentioned that it was a non-issue and I should focus on getting my back strong. I listened to some of your podcasts and realized that what you guys were saying made more sense than anything I had tried before. Funnily enough, now, nothing makes my back feel better than a heavy set of squats or deadlifts - rather than stretching or mobility work.
“Anyways just wanted to say thanks again for your advice in January. It's really helped me turn my training around and stop worrying so much about my back. I feel as though everything "makes sense" to me now, and this approach just simply works better than anything I've tried before.”
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2017 - 09:58am PT
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"certainly increased physical activity with constant food intake will result in weight loss (to a point)."
I was always under the impression that when one's physical activity goes down, without a decrease in food intake, weight gain is the natural course. I've experienced this first hand as well.
So...if I start at x level of physical activity, and now down to y, then I'm on the bad end of the equation from where I see it.
And although pure cardio isn't the answer, cardio is something I need to constantly maintain, or I won't be able to make those 20 min approaches. I have to find a way to integrate working out my lungs, and heart that is close enough to hiking uphill with pack weight, maintaining higher heart rate for more than 20min...without getting into the water.
We'll see!
Cheers
LS
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 31, 2017 - 10:07am PT
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Duncan is right, and studies prove it. For example a number of middle aged adults were MRI'd. Some had back pain and some did not. In many cases the one's with pain had pretty good looking MRI's and those without had terrible looking backs. I did a workshop with Tom Meyers a couple years ago. One of his basic principles is "never chase the pain. In other words the source of the pain is often not where we feel it.
But, I'll stand by my assertion that developing true core strength, not simply a strong abdominus rectus (six pack,) but rather as I described above, can really help with many cases of back pain. I've seen it over and over again. Of course I'm not suggesting to jump into some sort of exercise program while you're in pain. But when your pain subsides it's something to think about.
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 31, 2017 - 10:16am PT
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Disc bulges don’t cause back pain, they are normal age-related changes
Duncan is actually completely incorrect as they make the mistaken assumption of thinking herniated discs are only caused by age related changes
I have had doctors try and tell me the same- that they have patients with similar back issues who report no pain. Of course those patients are elderly and their back issues were not caused by injury/overuse. It's completely different.
I even had a doctor try and tell me that "you may or may not be experiencing pain"
I wanted to punch him in the face and tell him the same
Edit- also if a patient is not reporting back pain- then why did they get an MRI?
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 31, 2017 - 12:29pm PT
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"I know what's wrong. Way back in the day, I had a back injury that changed my life. The second thing the doc told me was that I'd be managing a compromised back for the rest of my life."
Those kind of diagnoses from a medical authority figure do more to perpetuate chronic pain syndromes. Once you've been set up by an authority figure like that the placebo/naocebo effect will keep the pain syndrome going and going and going. Real counterproductive handing out diagnoses like that.
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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Jul 31, 2017 - 01:05pm PT
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These folks fix backs. It's their specialty.http://iyisf.org/
Iyengar Yoga Institute of San Francisco.
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 31, 2017 - 01:55pm PT
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unfortuently the spine does not heal and there is no "fixing" a damaged spine.
As ksolem and others have posted the best you can do is strengthen the surrounding muscles in order to provide the support your back needs after losing the natural support a healthy spine provides
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2017 - 02:08pm PT
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:)
Boy do I know that there's no 'fixing' backs!
I DID just hear an ad about the benefits of SUP for people like me... ;)
If only it didn't involve water..
Cheers
LS
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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Jul 31, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
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wow, thanks for correcting me on that. you are SO smart and your reading comprehension is superb.
The institute can HELP you with your back and strengthen it too. Just like C. wilmot mentioned above.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2017 - 02:24pm PT
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Thanks TT
this sounds like it has a good chance of being pain free.
So funny that this exercise looks very much like a controlled pelvic thrust...
;)
I'd surmise that pelvic thrust strengthening exercises are a good thing, bad back or no....!
Cheers
LS
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 31, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
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My magic cure was lots of rest (including quitting my stand-all-day job until there was no more severe pain), then lots of SUP, and avoiding most of the hyperextending stretches that others' suggested. YMMV, of course, and it helps to like water.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 31, 2017 - 11:09pm PT
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There's one theory that suggests that LBP is the result of a small reduction in oxygen being sent to the nerves, muscles and tendons in the extremities by the central nervous system, a programmed behavior that is learned incidentally, sometimes following a traumatic injury. That's why LBP often develops following a death in the family, a divorce, a car wreck, a financial crisis etc etc. etc. Any one of the 44 life stress events classified by Holmes-Rahe in their classic study in the 1960s. Definitely something neurological and mind-body. The impingement due to bulging discs just doesn't hold water (so to speak) and has been disproven time and again in a number of double-blind studies. The real cause of LBP is still very much subject to debate despite anything an orthopedic surgeon might tell you.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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^^a cause, not the cause.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2017 - 08:07am PT
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I gotta say guys, there's a point when Pain management is constant for 168+ consecutive hours, and 'why' is not the top thought in my head.
Rather- how to I stop feeling all of my muscles slowly disintegrate because the only relief is found while completely still flat on my back.
And how to avoid boredom induced pastry binges...
I read an article that aerobic exercise is keeps the brain on point, as well as the physical benefits.
Definitely have to find something besides walking to fill that gap...
Cheers!
LS
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I bet Chinese peasants or Africans don't get LBP.
It's a FWL - First World Luxury which I've luxuriated in forever.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Time to switch your food addiction to whole food plant based, like some delicious blueberries, figs, melons, etc. Think of this current problem situation as an opportunity to make some needed changes.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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The old wheat grass stereotype. Good one Dingus. I'll stick to delicious fruit, but thanks anyway.
And you forgot the:
Cheers!
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monolith
climber
state of being
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LOL, the very wise pastry addiction. And no, greens don't provide much calories and can't define a healthy diet. They are often soaked in oil as well.
And no, the suggestion wasn't for the back problem, but to work on something else.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Helped out a couple with a blown tranny yesterday way up by the Bristlecones. Dood couldn't have cared less. He's 39 and in remission from leukemia. Blown tranny? Pffft! BFD!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Have you tried (not)-inversion ? A Teeter Hang-ups ' table? 'Graduated Progression' weight bearing/assisted.
http://teeter.com
Edit: with -
Frumy's experience ?
(You do Not Need to Hang Up-side Down, just past, or just to the tipping point that is comfortable)
While waiting for years to have surgery,
( more than procrastination, necessary,, at the time, still a bad idea )
As part of the gentle process of living with a broken gneck I was one of a few regular participants.
Short , sets building up to increased duration 1.5 minutes -up to 3minutes.( torturously enforced )
- then, after a while, after surgery, again.
Both periods of near daily use were at Phisio-Re-hab centers Now, for me it is the dual benefits that make it best 'control'd' core work out
. . . YMMV
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I read an article that aerobic exercise is keeps the brain on point, as well as the physical benefits.
Definitely have to find something besides walking to fill that gap...
Another out-of-the blue idea.
Any chance of volunteer work helping to feed homeless/down-on-their-luck persons? Those people can help a need we may not know we have. They are a big under-appreciated reservoir of empathy and the kind of humanity we need more perspective on.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
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:D!
FIGS! I love figs!!! ;). (really I do love fresh figs).
Alas, despite all the advertising, tasty fruit and veg will never be interchangeable with pastry. In fact, after much trial and error,for me, there is no whole plant based food I've experienced that is an adequate substitute for pastry. Good in their own right and an avid fan fer sure though!
As such, I must use every tool at my disposal to manage pastry (and other food) addictions.
For the record, my granpa (who was a Chinese peasant) said that they got LBP all the time. And they did what the rest of their family ands friends did-figure out their own coping mechanisms. Tiger balm was in use far before First World Luxury. I dunno about Africans though. No Granpa's from that side of the world.
Thanks for the suggestion to help feed the homeless/down on their luck. I understand the need for empathy etc in our world, but for now, today, it can't come from me.
I believe in a different morality. Just not quite aerobic enough...
Teeter...I've seen them in action. Pretty cool.
Thanks folks. Many things to try!
Cheers
LS
Ps- wheatgrass FTW! ;)
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Adventurer
Mountain climber
Virginia
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LS, have you tried riding a bicycle? I have a lower back problem called Lumbar Spinal Stenosis and although hiking/walking can be difficult at times, riding a bike is painless and gives me plenty of aerobic exercise.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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We have a professional here in Los Angeles who treats certain back problems as follows: You get in a warm pool,and have a flotation device on your chest. Then you put on ankle weights, and move your feet up and down until you get fatigued.
If you want something simpler, stand upright in water maybe just to, or a little over your head. Then move your arms and legs as if you are doing a hundred yard dash. In 30-45 seconds, you are winded and have to stop. Repeat 6-8 times. You get a great cardio workout, it works the arm and leg muscles some also, very short period of time. Basically you are doing stationary wind sprints in water.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Belmont, California
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I bet Chinese peasants or Africans don't get LBP.
It's a FWL - First World Luxury which I've luxuriated in forever.
True Reilly. No native-born Kenyans have LBP (of course unless they have Mr C). Same with whiplash. Lithuanians don't get it, Norwegians do.
LBP does seem to be confined to technologically developed cultures in Europe, Asia and North America. Very similar to late 19th century Freudian hysterical neuroses. Very culturally specific.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I understand the need for empathy etc in our world, but for now, today, it can't come from me.
Aha.
The suggestion was that it might need to come to you, not from you, and in a form you won't find on the internet.
But you best know what you need, no irony or return fire intended. You are fully capable. Not every problem can be fixed but almost every problem can be helped.
edit:
People who are down-and-out and have next to no material resources often, but not always, seem to understand the need to provide empathy. An under-used resource, I believe, and it works to improve almost any problem.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2017 - 08:46am PT
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MH2
Gotcha-totally misunderstood and get what you're saying. Thanks!
Week 3 of nursing the Back. Have been able to climb and do all the muscle building bodyweight exercises, which is great.
But damn if I don't miss running. Sheesh, such a far cry from bitd when I hated everything about running except the aftermath.
Thanks all!
Cheers
LS
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Aug 10, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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I had bulging disc, sciatica issues for years. I was at my wit's end and considered the situation beyond manageable. That's until a large fragment of disc broke off and lodged against a nerve. The bulging disc may as well have been a hang nail compared to this. I was forced to quit surfing, hiking, carrying loads and every other physical activity you can't do dragging one leg- it was pretty much a total shut down.
The doctors suggested surgery as a last option and promoted intense rehab with the hopes the fragment would reduce in size over a couple of years. I was pissed and beside myself but went full in on their program.
It's been three years and they were right. Swimming got me started, then I advanced to deep sand runs and intense core workouts. I've just started to surf my short board again and 95% percent recovery seems reasonable. There was a dark time when I had written off any strenuous physical activity for the rest of my days.
Last summer I summited Whitney on a 22 mile day hike and went back a month later and climbed the East Buttress on a criuse. Through the process and at 50, I've finally learned what uncompromising commitment is.
Don't give in to it and good luck!
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Aug 10, 2017 - 12:22pm PT
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Dingus, I must come clean... My wife bitched at me incessantly to stay on it :)
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Aug 10, 2017 - 02:25pm PT
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Hope your in a cycle of recovery DMT!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Aug 10, 2017 - 07:48pm PT
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Contractor...What kind of core exercises solved your back problems...?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Aug 10, 2017 - 08:34pm PT
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That cheap little power wheel (started from the knees- now from a stand up position), yoga ball crunches, lock off the elbows on a pull up bar and raise feet to the ceiling, reverse dip planks with belly button facing the ceiling, side planks and the dune runs actually engage the core quite a bit. Curls, push ups and all the standard sh#t is mixed in. It seems like a lot of this stuff may be similar to Pilates positions.
An hour a day, six days a week- anyone can do it if they commit to gains every day. I do two reps of everything and every rep I max out then grunt out two more. The point of grunting out those extra reps, besides guaranteed gains, is to build core heat over the course of the workout. The heat is critical in loosening up the lower back and pelvis. 30 pounds lost... It's definitely a love hate thing.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Aug 11, 2017 - 06:39am PT
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noted..thanks....
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 11, 2017 - 06:40am PT
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Good one, Contractor. TFPU.
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