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Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
nathanael
climber
CA
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Jun 19, 2017 - 07:31am PT
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Made me think about how often you get to the bottom of a rap and can barely pull the rope because of the rope drag, and it seems like this requires more force getting to the anchor than just pulling a rope...
Would be a real problem to get to the bottom of rap and not be able to get it to release. Especially because jumaring up the rope would be suicidal.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 19, 2017 - 08:05am PT
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Very clever. I can think of a party with a single rope (needed to bail on a middle cathedral route after leader fall injury last weekend) could have used.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 08:24am PT
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Just don't stop on a ledge or bounce too much .... :-)
In an extreme emergency, you can always remove the sheath and a few strands from the core of your rope and double it to escape.
Ultimately, ..... there's no escape period ......
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jun 19, 2017 - 08:45am PT
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If you've been around long enough, you might recall the Decrocheur Allain, a spring-loaded device that sprung open when unloaded.
Werner's exhortation to not stop on any ledges was far more pertinent to this device, which would come plummeting down as soon as the tension on the rope relaxed enough.
The Beal gadget is interesting as a thought experiment, and not nearly as likely as the decrocheur to release inappropriately. But my guess is that, more than half the time in real circumstances, the effect of system friction will mean you won't get your rope back, which hardly improves an emergency situation.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:15am PT
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Totally crazy. I would never, ever, do that. Best case scenario is a stuck rope.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:34am PT
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Keep the rope weighted during rappel...
No sh*t. And their demo is in ideal conditions.
Actually it looks like it takes a fair number of unloading/loading cycles to release it, but still my heart would be in my mouth using that thing. If I were going to carry an extra item in case of such a situation it would be a tag line, or I'd lead on doubles.
And folks on the other thread were saying simul-rapping is sketchy.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:58am PT
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Seems like the thing would also be optimized for only one rope diameter--and fatter or skinnier ropes would work less well.
Curt
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:01am PT
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Kamikaze knot seems a lot cheaper.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:05am PT
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Curt, I would think the short rope comes with the device. You can then tie any rope to the short one.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 19, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
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The fifi hook method is no more suicidal then simo rapping. As the only time a problem will happen if generally if you unweight the rope in both instances.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 19, 2017 - 02:40pm PT
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Curt, I would think the short rope comes with the device. You can then tie any rope to the short one.
Oh, right--good point.
Curt
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 19, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
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and you dont want to deal with doubles/twins
I've only used twins once. They were my partner's, and I thought they were a total pain in the ***. Too skinny.
That said, I've used doubles extensively. Once you and you partner have the system dialed in it's great. The other thing that really matters is the ropes themselves, some work like a charm, others are an endless snarl-fest.
I'm not sayin' that Bear lacks this experience, just putting it out there for general consumption.
And of course they suck for sport climbing.
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Murf
climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
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Is it just me, or did they leave a stopper knot in for the demo video?
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Jun 19, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
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Totally unnecessary and insane,
A solution to a nonexistent problem
Lol
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Jun 19, 2017 - 09:06pm PT
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Wasn't the Decrocheur Allain re-branded ACME by its importer in the desert southwest?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Jun 20, 2017 - 09:53am PT
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This is interesting.The prusik part of the device is a variation of the standard prusik knot. Sling material can be used - that is the real key. Instead of the usual concentric version you wrap the cord or web down the rope like a vine and then back through itself. I used to experiment with it as an alternative for soloing because it did loosen more easily than the standard version. I designed a plate that could help pull it along by hand as I made progress and then it would catch more predictably than the standard prusic and slide along the rope more easily. It loosens easily as it gets bunched back together. I used to call it the Snake Bite. In the Beal version it looks like a wrap coming down in both direction around the rope - a DNA helix! OK, no Darwin jokes! Ultimately, I never ended up using it to solo - I tied knots for soloing instead.
Here it is called this: http://www.animatedknots.com/klemheist/index.php
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Tom Lewin
Trad climber
Edinburgh
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I notice that the guy rapping on it for the demo d
vid did NOT have the confidence in the kit to remove the stopper knot before he started the descent!! (It had obviously been removed by someone else for demo purposes once he was safely down)! Interesting.......
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Tom Lewin
Trad climber
Edinburgh
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I notice that the guy in the demo vid did NOT have the confidence in the kit to remove the stopper knot before he started his descent. It had obviously been removed by someone else once he was safely down and before the release was filmed. Interesting......
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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I think I don’t like the looks of that thing. Too many opportunities for stuff to go wrong.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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no facebookie, but aren't there many lower-tech/cost suicide rap options?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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First he has the instructions strapped to his arm, then he doesn't, then he does again. I'm confused.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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that is not a strap holding instruction book to his wrist, that is the Beal Instructioner. sheesh.
perhaps they combined it with the Escaper for a disappear/reappear promotion?
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clockclimb
Trad climber
Orem, Utah
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Last fall before the Escaper was available some of the videos were so detailed it was easy to see exactly how the Escaper is built. I went home and sewed up five of them! I like to hand sew some of my own gear using heavy dyneema thread. Mine are exactly the same as Beal's other than my bungee cord setup is slightly different. My bungee setup is strong enough to lift the weight of a 10mm 70m rope. I have since purchased a Beal Escaper. Their bungee setup does not lift as much weight which makes me think you may have to flick the rope to relieve the weight. I haven't tried the Beal version on a climb yet.
Mine work great! I haven't tried them wet or icy yet. I have used them 17 times doing full 60m to 70m rappels. It pulls down everytime. I have had it hang up twice after it dropped to the base of the rappel. I had to scramble up fourth class territory to retrieve it from either jumbled rocks or cracks.
It does hang up somewhat easier than a double rope rappel. It hangs up a lot thess than anticipated however. I love it! Just make sure you know how to lead a stuck rope placing gear and belayed by both the top rope and the bottom rope tied off to your partner or anchor. You can use a prusik to accomplish this just be sure it won't slip and burn through!
I would only recommend the Escaper to experienced climbers who have done a lot of rappeling.
The link below has my photos referenced below. Scroll to the bottom of the page.
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/113218858/beal-escaper-thoughts?page=3
In the second photo the top follow-through knot is Beal's method to connect the climbing rope to the Escaper. I use the triple sheet bend shown below. It is a lot smaller profile knot but goodness you had better know what you are doing! I had to put kevlar stitches into the dyneema where the knot is so it would have sufficient friction to work. Without the kevlar the climbing rope would incrementally slip through the knot every time I bounced my weight on the climbing rope. At the same time the knot in the dyneema would cinch down so tightly it was impossible to untie. (don't worry that is a just a raggedy rope end cleaned off a cliff - not a rope I'm climbing on)
To rappel from a tree you must use a sling and thread the escaper through that (no carabiner needed). When I did it I wrapped a runner around the tree and ran the Escaper through the open ends. The sling was retrieved by having a long cord tied to the sling that pulled it off the tree after the Escaper rope had pulled free of the sling. The setup is show in the bottom photo. The water bottle is the tree. The Escaper has just disengaged and is ready to come down. The climbing rope is out of sight on the right hand side of the frame. The green cord needs to be twice as long as shown. At least least as long as the Escaper rope (purple in this case)
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Its a very clever idea to explore as a last resort, but there's a whole lot that can go wrong when you have extra cords and crap + having to do multiple tugs on varying ropes with the anchor point out of sight. There's only a small demographic that would have use for such a device.
They are demonstrating this on a nice round rap ring that is free hanging. In a real scenario - weird anchors or rocks and ledges or bushes adding friction - I'm guessing there's a very high likelyhood of a stuck rope or failure to get the Dyneema to release...all that providing the person setting it up didn't botch the tension on the thread-through and fall to their death.
Edits:
@Murf and Tom yup- the guy raps with a backup knot that conveniently disappears later. Second Edit: I guess the manual recommends the backup while the first climber descends- only the last guy removes it.
@ D2R2- French braid/Ghost knot/macrame knot (aka MDK- Maidy's Death Knot) you only get half the rope length. Still a good knot to know for the O-fvck scenario.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Denver CO
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May 22, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
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Testing Beal's Controversial Escaper Rappel Device
This detachable anchor system makes a bold yet unnerving promise to deliver full-length, single-rope rappels. Is it the holy grail for rappelling or an accident waiting to happen?
[I started a new thread about this, not realizing there already was one, so just deleted it along with a couple of comments, sorry about that]
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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May 22, 2018 - 01:47pm PT
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I think the Dead Kennedys said it best, "Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death"
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 23, 2018 - 09:53am PT
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I’m thinking about getting one as an alternative to a fiddlesticks, to slow the groove growth around here from pulling rap ropes in canyons.
That's why " bring a 70 meter tag line" argument doesn't work
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 29, 2018 - 10:39am PT
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I’m thinking about getting one as an alternative to a fiddlesticks, to slow the groove growth around here from pulling rap ropes in canyons.
I'd say stick with the fiddlestick. At the rate of 12--20 pulls to get a release, there will still be grooving action.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 29, 2018 - 10:54am PT
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As DMT suggests, once the rope doesn't come down, yer prolly gonna need a rescue. So bringing this thing into a remote setting as a backup for emergencies sounds a bit to me like choosing which emergency you'll have to be rescued from.
Add to that the fact that emergency descents are perhaps more likely to be on broken ground or other high-friction environments that are more likely to impede releasing and more likely to snag the mess on the end of the rope once the system releases. So I don't think it is a particularly good choice as an emergency backup. The main application would be for well-known established rappel routes on vertical or steeper smooth rock. So basically a convenience item, or an emergency backup for that type of situation.
Another thing about emergency descents is that they are often caused by bad weather. I'd want to know how the system functions with a soaking wet rope before I considered it as an emergency option.
Something else that worries me is the bungie loop that makes the whole thing work. If that loop breaks or fatigues, the releasing mechanism is kaput and yer rope ain't comin' down. This means:
(1) The rappel placement has to be carefully inspected to make sure the bungie loop isn't going to be abraded during the pulling process. There is a protective sheath, but it only shields the bungie when it isn't stretched.
(2) The bungie has to be carefully inspected at each rappel to make sure it isn't stretched-out or compromised.
(3) In case the inspection above reveals a problem, the party had better be carrying a replacement bungie.
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shore i
Trad climber
London
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Jun 10, 2018 - 02:56am PT
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I got an Escaper mainly as an interesting toy and to see if it would be useful on easy routes as I usually use a single rope.
Firstly I have only tried it a few times and on easy ground.
One involved moving initially approx 10 metres down sloping, broken ground. I went back to the anchor to check before going over the edge and found that my weighting and unweighting of the rope, going towards the edge while clipped to my belay plate, must have allowed the device to reach the point of release (where I had tied a stopper knot). If I had attached my belay device near the edge and gone over carefully then it then it should have been fine. Incidentally I tried releasing the rope from the base of the crag with this "high friction environment" at the top and surprisingly it worked OK (17 sharp tugs).
Its worth noting that the instructions are to tie a stopper knot in the Escaper for the first person rappeling which means it is totally secure. The top person checks for slippage during the first rappel and for retrievability (bottom guy pulls) before removing the stopper knot and then rappeling with the now pretested setup. Thus with a party of two the system should be safe, the first guy could have prusikked back up etc if necessary.
One would need to be absolutely confident in the setup to use it on a solo retreat.
The device would also seem to be open to misuse, as are other items of equipment of course, including misthreading in poor light.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 10, 2018 - 06:28am PT
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I don't see a lot of use for this in climbing, except as an emergency tool. But in canyoneering, in canyons where the style is to leave no anchors, it's a whole 'Nother situation!
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Michael Browder
Mountain climber
Chamonix, France (Oregon originally)
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Jun 10, 2018 - 01:53pm PT
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It works. It works well.
What a lot of whinging (as usual) from the usual sources.
The Escaper is easy to test and test extensively in a safe controlled environment.
I have done this, have you? If not, why not? Or do you all just prefer the usual totally ignorant B.S.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Jun 10, 2018 - 04:23pm PT
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^^^^^^
I think that's what makes this device a big problem for me. I have been climbing for 45+ years all over the world and have never had the need to use such a device. I don't want to have to use something that requires a lot of testing to use. I want something that is simple and can be easily used in all situations be it a sunny day, a rain storm or a blizzard. Double ropes have work well for me so I don't see a reason to change. YMMV.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jun 10, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
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What a lot of whinging (as usual) from the usual sources.
Whinging? That's the sound made by a taut rappel line that won't pull down.
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Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
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