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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 2, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
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Watch for a “Reichstag Fire”. At this point, or shortly, a major crisis will explode, as it did with the Reichstag fire in Germany which allowed Hitler to restrict civil rights, consolidate power and increase militarization. Look it up.
Look soon for an “emergency” such as a major terrorist attack (which is probably inevitable anyway), a real or contrived assassination attempt, a real or contrived North Korean or Russian plot or aggression, or something similar. The public will immediately want a “strong leader”. Civil rights will be cut way back in the sacred name of national security, President says “I told you so” and gains ersatz credibility. Declares a state of emergency. Many Muslims to camps. Possibly no return from this. History has shown this pattern repeatedly, including false flag operations, and the less support a leader has the more likely he is to initiate such a situation.
the US is on the way down, and has been ever since we went into Iraq.
There’s a faint hope. It might be that enough House Republicans will get so nervous about this unpredictable childish narcissist that they will impeach or pressure him to resign - which he might, as he is used to having the last word with no constraints or criticisms - and has already said he missed his old life. That would leave Pence, which could also be disastrous in a more disciplined way.
But there’s hope there too. There may be so many Repubs disillusioned that the House may have Democratic control after the next elections. This is what we must work on.
It isn’t just the US that is in great danger from Trump and those Repugnicans who place party ahead of country, but the whole world.
Don’t just keep your fingers crossed. Go and do something about it! We are in real danger here.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Too many Republicans are too scared to speak up about Trump. There is little hope until they grow some balls
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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YES! the volatile blind minority of scared sheep enableth a paradoxical expansion of flagsucking martial governance by the "party of limited government".
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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kingdom of fear. spot f*#king on.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Timely thread and good analysis.
I'd like to think you are wrong, however, about the United States. That's a hope though, not an argument.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, fossil climber...
an old 94 year old german, that i help, as to her age, since she is my friend,
(she was in the war, and there in germany when it built up and then started, and thus, ended, at well--and was in berlin, when it was bombed out) ...
well, she has been feeling and thinking,as to the same as your post...
* oddly, she recently mentioned this, :O
it is scare stuff, all right... :O
especially from someone that 'say the signs' but did not understand
where it was leading, and now looks back... :O
not many her age, are left, that can say this... :O
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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More Trump Derangement Syndrome.(TDS)
*yawn*
Another flagrant violation of Godwin's law.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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The evil that men do lives after them
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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There is one enormous difference between 1933 and the present. I don't know if it will be enough to prevent what you fear happening, but in the time before the Reichstag fire, who could have posted up a warning to beware of such an event?
The advent of the internet has given a voice to all, and, although it sometimes seems that most of the "all" are batshit crazy and that the world would be better off if they didn't post, at least you are able to offer your warning.
And you are hardly alone.
In the years leading up to 1933, not only would you not have been able to broadcast your warning, you may well have been beaten, or jailed, if you'd shouted it on a streetcorner. Many here on ST decry modern journalism, but they have no idea how much of an oxymoron "freedom of the press" was until the late 20th century -- not just in Germany, but in the US as well.
So, while I don't disagree that Donald Trump, or someone who can pull his strings, might manufacture a Reichstag fire, I hope that enough of the US population will be prepared for it, and prepared to call it for what it is, that it fails.
And, if everything does go to sh#t, at least you and Cindy are well away from it up there. (And, in another year, us too.)
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WBraun
climber
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Well ....Trump pulled out of the Paris climate accord, and ...
This means no carbon tax.
So gas prices should, therefore, drop almost instantly?
So go get em Americanos, and enjoy yer big ass American gas guzzling cars again :-)
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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They said the same thing about Obama. A few years ago I would have thought the theory was ludicrous. However We are now in uncharted territory. Trump would love to invoke martial law. Will the Orange ShitGibbon silence Comey?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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The most fervently devoted of the well armed 34% would quickly form regional, ultra nationalist melitias. They would certainly be coerced by elements the Alt Right/Trump/Putin alliance which would validate the claim of a popular uprising and cloak a blatant abrogation of the Constitution by the legislative branch.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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On Wednesday, I went to a program sponsored by the Law Society here, on the rule of law - a fundamental part of the constitution of Canada and the USA. The talks were by Anne Egeler, Deputy Solicitor General of Washington State and part of the attorney team challenging President Trump's executive orders (on immigration), and Richard Gordon, QC, lead counsel for Wales in the high-profile Brexit case Miller v. Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. In both cases, of course, the government resoundingly lost, in the case of the Trump administration repeatedly.
Ms. Egeler observed that the government has so far not advanced any factual basis on which to base its orders. It is a necessary prerequisite that there be at least some factual basis. She also said that although the government concedes that the executive orders are subject to court review, it has consistently argued that no action by the president is subject to review. In other words, that the president is above the law.
The high-profile antics of Trump and gang are worrying. But it's the things that we're not hearing about, the dogs that aren't barking, that are of real concern. The numerous senior positions in the government where the administration hasn't even nominated anyone to fill them. Health care and budget proposals that are DOA. Whether it's the Russians or the Kochs who own Trump, or both, they're getting their money's worth.
After seeing what happened in 2001 - 03, it would be no surprise if Trump et al used a real or fabricated crisis to advance their agenda.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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three reasons why it won't happen, or at least be effective, at this point in history, even if it was tried:
1. Ghost already stated reason number one. for a domestic "reichstag fire" to be effective the white house would have to control the press, to a much greater degree than it does. the "internet" can be influenced for sure. we likely saw that with the last election. otoh, it's pretty hard to lock, stock and barrel put the genie back in the bottle. that would require the whole tech leadership being complicit. while i'm reasonably suspicious that zuckerburg would be on board, there are many other nodes that wouldn't be. and if you can't control the "tubes", you can't control either the manna or the shIt flowing down them.
2. the u.s. has internal checks and balances. shIt, trump and co can't even get a watered down "muslim ban" into place... and this is after their predecessor had set the stage for them by already unilaterally bombing every nation on the list. you seriously think the u.s. judiciary, the c.i.a. and f.b.i., can be co-opted in the same fashion that the bureaucratic infrastructure of pre wwII germany's was? if so please see point one. maybe in a couple more election cycles... we have for example already progressed from palin to the orange shIt-gibbon in the last eight years. but, in the next four or even eight years? nah, not even close on my estimation.
3. it already happened. who needs a domestic "reichstag fire" and the complexities of domestic "muslim" or "liberal" or any other camps when the president already has all of the tools he needs on a global level thanks to nine/eleven. now before you dismiss this and assume i'm saying that was an "inside job" hear me out.
the whole "inside job" debate [just like the rebub vs dem debate] keeps the plebs like you and me occupied when the actual truth is as follows: it doesn't matter whether it was an inside job or not.
the aftermath was an inside job of epic proportion, that with military psy-op precision and efficiency, a world was beget, at a crucial moment in history, where, with first dubya bush and then obeezy as pitch person, we got the following:
 a world where a president can unilaterally decide to murder even american citizens as long as they aren't on u.s soil, with the only public oversight being the recurrent four year "democratic" vote.
a world where individuals in armed services operate effective "flying robots" generally in deserts on the other side of the world, in order to murder individuals they most often don't know the identity of and often due only to their targets exhibiting activity patterns that deem them "likely combatants" but who then turn out to be a civilian on average of one fatality per every strike. and all of this happens in countries the u.s. isn't even "at war" with...
a world where a "liberal" and nobel peace prize winning u.s. president can drop twenty thousand bombs on a single country without declaring war on it. and in the process kill according to the pentagon itself about 500 civilians over 2.5 years and according to independent toe tag counters a minimum of 3817 civilians [due to "coalition" bombings] over the same time period. and our corporate "mainstream" media gives press to what during the same time period?
a world where the emergent data streams have been wholistically stored, filtered, and processed in non-transparent ways. ie. we now know, due in no thanks to the spooks, the congress nor the whitehouse, that the "metadata" is put through the process above, but anyone with open eyes has to wonder what the enormously large data storage and processing facilities are really doing, when if it was only meta data processing that was happening there would be no need for facilities of the size that have been built in the last ten years.
a world where secret court orders that can't be discussed can shut down and force tech company activities in ways that generally only end up being hinted at by the death of web based "canaries".
a world where without explanation or necessary reason one can be put on a no-fly list indefinitely and without recourse.
and a-that's-off-the-top-of-my-head-based etc.
you're worried about a "reichstag fire"?
it can't happen, at least for individuals not on u.s. soil...
that's because for them it already happened.
edit to add: nice, much more succinct cross-post, Walleye...
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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I think I like this Nah000. Cogent.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
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Lots of good points above. Thanks, all.
There are certainly many differences between the present situation and Germany in the 30s; I certainly won't argue that.
But I'll leave you to speculate on what the reaction of the polity and the citizenry might be in the event of another 9/11 magnitude event, which is by no means unlikely.
Thanks for thinking about it. We need to.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Good presentation, NahOOO.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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In the 5,000 year history of failed states and destroyed societies, these handful of fledgling, free market, social Democracies have legislated, on a piece of paper, an iron clad solution to man's hubris and greed?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ha-ha. Yup.
Anyone who writes, "“We hold these Truths to be self-evident. . . " is an ideologue.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Our internet access is more brittle than you realize, and very subject to government shutdown. The problem is we have a relatively small number of physical chokepoints that all traffic goes through. Already government agencies have placed physical devices at each of the chokepoints to capture all of the traffic for CALEA legal monitoring and other nefarious monitoring. That was done 15 years ago and has probably been continually refreshed with more powerful tools. I would not be surprised if there were specific scenarios/plans to remotely trigger the shutdown of the different chokepoints in a "marshal law" type of situation.
The protocols and technology are very robust to support decentralized deployment. It was originally designed for battlefield communications, to be able to use any available path without dropping connections.
But, it all has been deployed to minimize cost and enable corporate profit because companies are the ones who invested to build out the infrastructure. The design objective of maximizing robust communication access between people in the event of targeted destructions or administrative desire to shut it down, that was not a design requirement.
That said, knowledge of the protocols and technologies are out there, and ad hoc networks of point-to-point microwave and ethernet and fiber and other connections would be rebuilt through grass-roots efforts, albeit with access for far fewer people and at slower speeds, and with access to corporate information sources cut off and just people putting up their own stuff and posting to ad-hoc bulletin boards and forums.
I suspect there is going to be more effective and deadly means of controlling our press. The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) is dramatically changing the laws for internet service providers, making them the kings and toll arbiters (highway robbers)of the information superhighway. There are only a small handful of these very large corporations that would need to be influenced to block access to certain media streams, or to slow them down so much that people stop using them. A slow bleed of this behavior over a period of months and years will be similarly effective as shutting down free press but it won't raise the same alarms and public outrage.
How many of you understood or cared when I was harping on the FCC killing net neutrality and the changing regulations for Internet Service Providers? How many of you wrote a letter during the open comment period? (as if it would have mattered with this administration).
So I think we will die of thousands of little cuts, rather than some grandiose overt aggression. Trump will make us bleed faster, he will be out at some point, but the assault of little cuts will continue, faster with Republicans than with Democrats, but the little cuts won't stop.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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I just watched the Bannon's War episode on Frontline. Pretty creepy stuff, Rove on steroids, with a dash of Klan.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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NWO2... Excellent question...What's your take on the Trump-Putin election tampering ..?
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WBraun
climber
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Putin had nothing to do with election tampering.
Zero proof, you brainwashed idiots have no clue how easy it is to manipulate this bullsh!t to make it look like anyone could do it.
But what can be done anyways since you Americans are the most stoopid brainwashed idiots on the planet .....
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knucko
climber
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"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.
How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
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dirtbag
climber
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A bigger problem is a continual degradation of informal democratic norms, which is happening daily in real time.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Duck Man... Which planet...? Weiner or Mars.. .Goon Boi
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Randisi, don't expect an intelligent response from Ward. Just in case you were wondering. A programed responses, yes. A thoughtful reply, no.
Well, we already have right wing, self appointed storm troopers likes the Alt-Knights, the Proud Boys and Promise Keepers, who are happy use confrontation and polemics to support their Fuhrer Drump (oops, I mean keep the peace) at political rallies. I'm 53 and I've never seen anything like it in my lifetime, at least not in the open.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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sycorax, I quote from snopes.com about this 'Caesar' quote:
Yet as popular as the quote is, it’s not real. These words are not anything Julius Caesar ever wrote or said. No biographies of Caesar or histories of Rome contain these lines, and scholars who have made it their business to know everything about the man draw a blank on this quote. Likewise, Shakespeare did not stuff this soliloquy into the mouth of the title character in his play Julius Caesar, nor did any of the Bard’s other characters utter it. No record of this quote has been found prior to its appearance on the Internet in late 2001.
So what’s going on here, then?
As Ralph Keyes explains in Nice Guys Finish Seventh, his compendium of misattributed and false quotes, “Famous dead people make excellent commentators on current events.” The dead do not reappear to challenge words assigned to them, an attribute much prized by those looking for convenient spokesmen to lend authority to their convictions. This “quote” called for a strong and respected military leader and statesman, hence Caesar was resurrected to give it voice.
Edited to add: Still a good 'quote' though.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Perhaps the duck can tell us whether Ceasar said it or not?
After all, I suspect that he suspects that he was there then ;)
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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It's really quite simple. Resist and organize. Stay focused and angry...then work like hell to get Democrats elected in '18.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Yeah, but it's all for the good of the Republican Party, so what could go wrong?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Randisi: A violation of it?
I think he meant another instance of it.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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The original post is almost a carbon copy of the kind of trash that the right wing used to say about Obama. None of it came to pass. Not even close.
I have no love for Trump, but please be realistic.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Yes, and it was so plausible that a benevolent constitutional law professor was an existential threat to Democracy.
Meanwhile a plurality of intelligence and former state department officials are going public about the Threat of collusion between Trump and the Russian's.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Base, that's a reflection that neither Obama nor the Democrats were interested in subverting the government. However, the Republicans were more than happy to contend that to rile their gullible base.
Many Republicans have, distressingly, have shown a willingness to support Trump despite his overeaching. Attacking the press, disinformation, secret meetings that never would have been disclosed were it not for leeks. And then are not apologetic when getting their hands caught in the cookie jar but, rather, claim the only serious wrongdoing is the leaking. In response to the stabbings in Portland, the head of the Republican Party in Multnomah County (where Portland is located) has advocated the use of alt right militias to keep the peace. What person rightfully interested in true law and order and our form of government would advocate such a thing?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Watch Bannon's War, it is on NightLine if you have any doubt as to this administration's goals. Where is the Republican outrage?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Just finished the shortbook "On Tyranny - 20 Lessons from the 20th Century" by Timothy Snyder. Happens to be #1, too at New York Times, Best Sellers...
https://www.nytimes.com/books/best-sellers/paperback-nonfiction/
Snyder discusses the Reichstag Fire and its lessons, too.
"The original post is almost a carbon copy of the kind of trash that the right wing used to say about Obama. None of it came to pass. Not even close....I have no love for Trump, but please be realistic." -BASE
Another prominent lesson of On Tyranny... beware those (eg, BASE 014?) who call you or your admonitions alarmist, exaggerated, paranoid or ridiculous.
Excellent post Fossil Climber. You too Ghost.
Excellent discourse between Snyder and Harris here...
https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-road-to-tyranny
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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9/11 was the start of the last "Reichstag Fire ".. George W. became the "war president " followed by the Patriot Act followed by Wall Street making off with American's retirement savings.. Pucker lips wants to repeal Dodd-Frank...Don't be suprised when Wall Street tanks again ....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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In response to the stabbings in Portland, the head of the Republican Party in Multnomah County (where Portland is located) has advocated the use of alt right militias to keep the peace. What person rightfully interested in true law and order and our form of government would advocate such a thing?
The biggest fundamental departure I have from the left concerns the logical priority of the individual. The left (generally) believes that society has logical priority and that individuals derive their values, worth, proper priorities, and even sustenance from society.
By stark contrast, I believe in the logical priority of individuals, where society derives its values, worth (and legitimacy), proper priorities, and even sustenance from individuals who agree to band together with a common commitment to prioritize and protect negative rights. Not positive rights; negative rights!
The trend of the last 50-60 years has been the systematic turning on its head of this logical priority, such that now (far too many) people honestly believe that "law and order" just MEANS that individuals CANNOT protect themselves, CANNOT (SHOULD not) band together into militias to protect themselves, and must helplessly wait for "first responders" to show up to "deal with" any situation.
WE are the first responders, and that is one of our most basic rights as human beings--logically prior to the formation of ANY society. The old saw is true: When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
So, you can count ME as a "person rightfully interested in true law and order and our form of government" who advocates exactly what you find so horrifying, and I do so BECAUSE I so deeply believe in TRUE law and order AND our form of government, a form of government that you among many others seem hell-bent on utterly subverting while turning the USA into just another democratic-socialist European non-nation.
Here's a thought: GO to one of those non-nations you so want to emulate. Live THERE, not here. Vote THERE, not here.
For people of your ilk, the world has MANY places you could live and find yourself surrounded by like-minded people. But the USA is the last remaining place on Earth in which (amazingly, still) a huge proportion of the population (about half?) are still resisting you and do NOT want to become just like another European non-nation. So, it's EASY for you to find a place that has already adopted your world-view. Seriously, why not leave the USA for people like me that have NO other place to go?
You've got piles of options. People like me have only one. So, you'll continue to turn logical-priority on its head only with a fight. And your question, asked like you think that NO rational person could answer any other way than you, just shows the depths of your echo chamber.
I find the question outrageous. But the difference between you and I is that YOU can go to countless places on Earth in which the vast majority of people surrounding you will echo your question and its implied answer. I cannot. The USA is the "last stand" for people like me.
If you cared at ALL for civil discourse, you would intentionally clamber out of your echo chamber, stop treating people like me as inherently irrational, and seek to truly understand "the other side" that at present shares these national borders with you. You would want to truly understand why somebody like me honestly and rationally believes so differently from you on something as basic as the rule of law.
You fear fascism in the USA? Then you should be most interested in avoiding the civil war that the puppet-masters are orchestrating, a war that can only end with a level of control and fascism that Hitler would have envied. Our enemies are not each other, and we had BETTER learn to have more productive discourse than occurs on this site!
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DanaB
climber
CT
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In other words, that the president is above the law.
Coincidence. Just started reading Constitutional Cliffhangers, Brian Kalt - a discussion about the Presidency and the law, immunity, executive privilege, etc.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Yeah, Madbolter,
I suppose that you worry about the thought police breaking down your door and tossing you into a secret prison.
The first amendment is strong in this country, so I conclude that you are quite safe.
Libertarians have a similar view, and I side more with the libertarians than either political party. As long as you don't go advocating violence, I'm behind you, even though I disagree that you are in any danger of being arrested or even muzzled. Even if you DO advocate violence, that is still protected speech, unless you are in cahoots with criminals, who do things like Tim McVeigh pulled in my city.
The militia/patriot movement really suffered after the OKC bombing. Now they are back and as strong as ever. As long as they don't break any laws, they are free to say what they like. There were only 3 arrests in the OKC bombing. McVeigh, Nichols, and Fourtier, who knew of the plot but did nothing to stop it.
We don't have a lot of love for militia types here in this state. Not after that horrific event.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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re: naive or mislaid trusts...
This seems a fitting addition to this thread given a few sentiments or attitudes expressed here...
"We tend to assume that institutions will automatically maintain themselves against even the most direct attacks. This was the very mistake that some German Jews made about Hitler and the Nazis after they had formed a government. On February 2, 1933, for example, a leading newspaper for German Jews published an editorial expressing this mislaid trust:
"We do not subscribe to the view that Mr. Hitler and his friends, now finally in possession of the power they have so long desired, will implement the proposals circulating in [Nazi newspapers]; they will not suddenly deprive German Jews of their constitutional rights, nor enclose them in ghettos, nor subject them to the jealous and murderous impulses of the mob. They cannot do this because a number of crucial factors hold powers in check… and they clearly do not want to go down that road. When one acts as a European power, the whole atmosphere tends towards ethical reflection upon one’s better self and away from revisiting one’s earlier oppositional posture."
"Such was the view of many reasonable people in 1933, just as it is the view of many reasonable people now. The mistake is to assume that rulers who came to power through institutions cannot change or destroy those very institutions..."
Snyder, Timothy.
On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century (pp. 23-24)
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Mad Bolter- The trend of the last 50-60 years has been the systematic turning on its head of this logical priority, such that now (far too many) people honestly believe that "law and order" just MEANS that individuals CANNOT protect themselves.
First it was "Corporations are people too".
And now according to Mad Bolter "Militias are individuals too" thus having the right to engage in policing activity as a group.
That's great!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Typical- the brief, glossed over false narrative associated to liberals followed by a tsunami of bullshit based upon those falsehoods.
Typical diversion tactics. You set up a catch-22. If I try to keep it short, you call it "glossed over." If I go into careful, rigorous detail, you call it a "WoT" and claim that "nobody can read a post like that."
So, yet again, I give up. Bottom line is quite simple: YOU can go all over the world and find a home with like-minded people. But ANY chance for originalist, classical-liberal government is right here. Since you are determined to turn us into a European non-nation, you could exert less effort to just move to one. People like me are backed into enough of a corner at this point that, like I said, the USA is the "last stand" for us.
There are many ways to "fight" and many sorts of "fires," and MANY of us middle-class folks are FED UP with decades and decades of BOTH parties raping us. I know many who feel like me: ANY more raping of the middle class, and we'll (in droves) just quit producing, downsize our lifestyles enough to live on the government teat (as SO many others already do), and you can very quickly watch your socialist-democratic utopia blow up in your faces like Greece and Spain (and others on the way).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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And now according to Mad Bolter "Militias are individuals too" thus having the right to engage in policing activity as a group.
That's just idiotic, and it's a classic example of the straw-manning that absolutely guarantees that NO dialog can take place.
So, as I said, you'll drive half this nation to giving up or violence. We either TALK or we fight.
YOUR choice. But you do NOT want to drive us to either violence or to giving up.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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There's another bullsh#t, glossed over reference- Now the US, Greece and Spain are one in the same! Can you stick to facts please?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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You got it right Madbolter.....when it comes to religion and politics NO dialog can take place on an open internet forum. All you will get is proselytizing and pontificating. Just back from two wonderful climbing days in the Black Canyon.....just beautiful rock, circling swallows and the Gunnison raging below.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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YOUR choice. But you do NOT want to drive us to either violence or to giving up.
Well, if your violence is as loopy as your logic, I don't think WE have much to fear.
You say that, as a believer in the right of individuals to take the law into their own hands (F*#k the Police -- LET'S GRAB OUR GUNS AND DO IT OUR WAY!!!), there is only one place in the world left for you to live (the USA). Whereas people who believe in a society where the good of all ought to be considered along with the good of the individual, have plenty of places to live.
You're half right. There are plenty of choices for those who are willing to accept that sometimes the feelings, rights, and needs of others ought to be considered along with their own.
But you're wrong about the US being the only place left for those who, like you, believe in your right to load up your gun and do whatever the f*#k you want. If the US is getting too fuzzy and nice for you, you could always move to Afghanistan. Or Somalia. Or Libya. Or any of dozens of other places where your philosophy has been played out to its logical end -- warlordism.
Yup. No worries for you in Somalia. Government won't interfere with you there...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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And the above is why the alt-left is a dying movement.
Straw-man is the only way you can argue.
The LAST thing I'm suggesting is everybody taking up a gun and doing whatever they want with it.
What you don't seem to get is that any legitimate rule of law MUST allow for individuals to be the "first-responders" in their own self-defense. That's DEFENSE, not offense. So, Somalia has NO relevance to a reasonable discussion.
Keep straw-manning, and you'll ultimately lose (perhaps everything you hold dear). If WE can't reason together civilly, this nation is doomed. Sadly, the fallout will likely miss our generation and instead take out your children and their children.
Perhaps they'll look back someday and say to you, "Dad, really? You REALLY couldn't find ANY common ground but instead read your 'opponent' as saying that everybody should be able to shoot anybody else like they do in SOMALIA? Really? THAT was the best 'discussion' you could muster up?"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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perhaps he should take his own advice f*#k off to another country
Well, every now and then I jump into a politard thread and give it a try. Again and again the same result: The alt-left OWNS the Taco Stand, and there is NO rational discussion possible.
Like the Hillary loss, your utter determination that you have the ONLY moral high ground, the ONLY rationality, and CANNOT ultimately lose WILL be your downfall. But I have no more time to waste on it.
Bye bye now. Back to your regularly scheduled echo chamber.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I am far, far from "alt left"
Same for me.
Madbolter, if you read your own post, and then think about what you read, maybe you'll see why I responded as I did. Your post really does read like a call for vigilante justice.
I haven't heard anyone here saying you shouldn't have the right to defend yourself. What I have heard is you incessantly whining about how the government is infringing on your rights. Government bad, government bad, government bad, ad nauseam.
If you really want a civil discourse, maybe you should start from a positive, rather than a negative stance, and look for common ground. Endless walls of text full of CAPITALIZATIONS and reeking of "I'm way smarter than you" do not encourage anyone to engage with you in a civil manner.
What do you think the role of government should be? Your rants against government interference make you sound like an complete anarchist, but anarchy leads only to warlordism and I doubt you want that.
So, if you want civil discourse, step down from your lectern and engage in it.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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I Hope the Russians Love Their Children Too. They do right? So now the neolibs are Russia hating and the Commie Haters are Putin Bromancing. The Saudis get the weapons. Hillary and Obama are the geniuses behind Syria. Bush and Cheney funded Proto Isis. Bernie votes with the Israel delegates. Elizabeth Warren is Blonde now. What exactly looks any different than business as usual. After Schwarzenegger and Mugabe nothing surprises me. I do still have to eat my shoe because President Cartman.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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That how this thread starting growing. Madbolter chimed in. I liked his anti-meat polemics better. They were rationale; this is not.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Mad Bolter- Come forward with some solid conservative analysis. The kind of argument that doesn't apologise for Republican, social and economic theory. I think we'd all welcome some solid debate minus your condescending stereotypes and myopia.
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WBraun
climber
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Oh and then we have to listen contractor brainwashed bullsh!t .......
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Contractor: Come forward with some solid conservative analysis.
I don’t think that’s necessary in order to present another viewpoint. One can have one of those without residing in one particular camp.
From a leadership / turnaround perspective, what is not expected could be enough to get the mass off of its dead center. It could also hold true for relationships with alliance partners. I know this sounds radical, but sometimes it helps just to be different. Even if it's wrong.
Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t see any particular leadership style as good or bad.
What makes a difference is what makes a difference.
Be well.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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holy tilt...
gotta admit i'm lost on this one.
i missed where anyone, including anybody on the "alt left", was arguing carte blanche against militias.
i just saw people arguing that militias seemed like a mighty strange way to deal with what has traditionally amounted to domestic police work [given the portland perp seems to have most likely been both mentally ill and unaffiliated with any greater organization].
and now mad seems to be arguing that even though the paid army can't be used in situations like this [for good reason on domestic soil when no organized military threat is involved], that volunteer military organizations should be given license to deal with folks like the portland dude?
seriously? i honestly didn't know that there were americans or humans in general who thought it their right to band together into volunteer armies to combat domestic law breaking...
i hope i'm missing something obvious...
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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From the site that Ed pointed to:
CLAIM: Julius Caesar bade us beware of leaders who bang the drums of war.
STATUS: FALSE.
It got me thinking about wars. (Been in one myself.) Our country has gotten involved in many wars, and almost all modern-day ones have not gone very well.
The War on Terror.
The War on Poverty.
The War on Drugs.
The War on Escalating Health Costs / or the The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (shortened to ACA)
The War on Poor or Under-funded Education.
. . . and so on.
Maybe we should eschew the term "War" when we talk about such things, and come with less dramatic initiatives that somehow work with people.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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.....come with less dramatic initiatives that somehow work with people.
That's not profitable. So the murder will continue unabated.
Human nature really.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Fossil Climber, it is great to have your Canadian perspective. Canada is a very progressive, relatively non-violent Country. Here in the U.S., if you look at statistics, we have had, since the 9/11 attacks, about 210,000 murders, 700,000 rapes, and about ten million aggravated assaults. With that amount of violence, we are a bit more numb. It will take a lot to get people that fearful.
When I was in Toronto, I noticed teen girls in Muslim burkas working in fast food places. I thought how wonderful that they feel safe and comfortable dressing like that and working in a public place. That is a testimony to the exemplary behavior of most Canadians. You don't see that here, outside of NY and a few other places.
Brazil has wonderful nature spots, nice beaches, and no problem with terrorism or Muslim immigrants. Yet their homicide rate is about 6-8 times higher than the U.S.
As the wicked witch of the East said, as she was melting, "Oh, what a world, what a world!!"
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Putin had nothing to do with election tampering. Zero proof.
Wrong. Unless you think Putin was unaware. The KGB guy, Putin.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Russian hackers attacked at least one U.S. voting software supplier days before last year's presidential election, according to a government intelligence report leaked Monday that suggests election-related hacking penetrated further into U.S. voting systems than previously known.
The classified National Security Agency report, which was published online by The Intercept, does not say whether the hacking had any effect on election results. But it says Russian military intelligence attacked a U.S. voting software company and sent spear-phishing emails to more than 100 local election officials at the end of October or beginning of November.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Dear Madbolter, you are a brave and courageous soul. I would climb with you anytime. Thanks for speaking out against LIBERAL FASCISM! Reagan said " If fascism takes hold in the United States it will be in the form of liberalism." Thats what we see happening now. As for Canada, those fascists have decided to take peoples children away if parents want to raise them. Instead, they want the socialist government to indoctrinate their children. Parents are being told not to raise their own children in the faith the parents choose and that the state gets to decide what gender identity is best for their kids. If the government there wants to get toppled by parents, this is a way to do it. Noone has a right to mess with our kids. Period. Canada is a disgrace. But I guess the gender indoctrination is a form of population control espoused by the illuminati. Touch my kid and I will chop yer fricken head off. Parents dont give a rats ass about governments liberal views. A child does not have the judgement and experience to make those choices. People who teach gender and sexuality to other peoples children are perverted narcissists. Parents have a sacred right to raise them. Sure there are abusive parents out there. And there are legit cases of gender dysphoria and discrimination out there. But do we want a state government that indoctrinates our kids with views we morally disagree with? THAT is pure fascism. State mind control, dogma, indoctrination, tryanny. In the classroom, teachers who try to force kids to make certain choices will fail. The best approach is to encourage them to make good choices on their own. Liberals apparently dont want people to make their own decisions. Individuals have to live the consequences of decisions that are made. Dont even try to make my choices for me. That is fascism, tyrrany and totalitarianism. If you want to be a snowflake, move to Canada or Europe as Madbolter suggests.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Im sure someone on the taco will call me out for what seems condradictory about letting kids make their own choices while at the same time I said parents need to make choices for their kids. It seems a parodoxical circular argument. But that is the nature of parenting. However, when the government wants to step in and take the parents choices away its time to call time out. Parents made those kids. They pay for them. They face consequences of what happens to them. Noone has a right to take away a parents role in raising their kids. Its time the liberals get checked.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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I've starting to believe that as a full moon happens, the longwinded loonies become more vocal on ST.
Full moon on Friday & Madbolter & chainsaw are inspired tonight.
I can hardly wait for the next few days of ST posting.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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My bets are on Duck Boy blowing a head gasket and ramping up the transmissions from Planet Weiner...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Full moon on Friday & Madbolter & chainsaw are inspired tonight.
Ease down there Fritz. Madbolter isn't anywhere near at the level of crazy this Chainsaw guy has acheived...
As for Canada, those fascists have decided to take peoples children away if parents want to raise them.
I dunno man, I raised kids in Canada, and the government never said anything to me. My kids are now of child-raising age, and the government ain't in their faces.
So I'm not sure what you're going on about. Care to enlighten us?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Chainsaw- Im sure someone on the taco will call me out for what seems condradictory If contradictory is the worst you get called out for I'd call that a win, all things considered.
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WBraun
climber
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Chainsaw and Madbolter ain't crazy.
Most of you are, especially Fritz, he's so brainwashed it's unreal.
Anything that doesn't fit into your tiny little box of what's left of your brain cells and you people immediately lose it.
You're all over programmed robots .....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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You're all over programmed robots .....
And you? What are you? A robot with no programming at all? A mindless essence swirling through the internet?
Maybe, just once, you could try contributing something positive.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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watchfor a koolaid celebration coming to your neighborhood
-jj
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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WBraun! Thank you for another bit of crazed love tonight.
Chainsaw and Madbolter ain't crazy.
Most of you are, especially Fritz, he's so brainwashed it's unreal.
Since I know you mean the opposite of what you retort, I appreciate your kindness, you crazed old fukin-duck, you.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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“The young preacher once threw his Bible to the floor and yelled at his associates, Too many people are looking at this instead of looking at me!”
―Jim Jones
http://izquotes.com/quote/241475
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Fritz has Heidi wash his brain daily (Tide preferred) which is the reason it functions so well.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Tide...? It's unreal....
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Ghost, thanks for that re WBraun:
And you? What are you? A robot with no programming at all? A mindless essence swirling through the internet?
Maybe, just once, you could try contributing something positive.
Thought that for a long time, but you said it well.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Winemaker...just finisned a nice malbec from Mendoza.
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WBraun
climber
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Real positive people here that insult chainsaw and madbolter continuously.
Then claim they're all positive.
Some real hypocrites here ......
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Indecent exposure
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2017 - 09:58pm PT
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Well - didn’t mean to ignite a Supertopo Fire, but it’s been entertaining.
The idea was to suggest that we be alert to national emergencies which will allow an administration to gain great power and restrict human rights because of fear. It’s an old story. It works.
Is this a prediction? No. But it's a possibility and one to be cautious of.
Read a little history. The present administration is already working on many of the steps which have been taken to consolidate authoritarian governments in the past. A major event could tip things radically. Fear is the catalyst.
We're in a unique time. Can't imagine what the outcome will be. Not optimistic. Sort of glad I'm 85.
Just watch, listen, think. And react in a way which just might help preserve our democracy (or what’s left of it), relations with our allies, and our individual freedoms.
***
Rants, incidentally, often originate from and are welcomed by closed minds. But they are entertaining!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"LIBERAL FASCISM!"
Fringe-right codewording made popular by Jonah (spawn of Mormo) Goldberg. Its use generally indicates the utterer is simple, easily manipulated and can't discern fact from fiction.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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MikeL: agreed.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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The national emergency happened last November. Doofus is burning down our great nation every day, with every tweet. The OP's conspiracy theory won't happen; Doofus and the GOP congress have all the power now to do whatever they like. We gave it to them.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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....Fear is the catalyst....
I try
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c wilmot
climber
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The media is working on this right now
They will crackdown on your freedoms to protect you from the Russians
Beware what you wish for
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c wilmot
climber
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According to sources with inside information on the matter the media is colluding with the trump regime to use the Russian election meddling as an excuse to strip Americans of freedoms long seen as fundamental rights
I read it on the internet- it must be true
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Ghost, read the news. The Canadian law authorizing the state to remove children from parents who "interfere" with a childs "chosen gender identity " was passed last week. For what its worth, both my parents were Canadian citizens who left that country to come to the US.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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And for those who call me insane, I am advocating conservative morals that made our Nation the free world. For hundreds of years, the values I refer to have guided us to success. The ultra liberal views the "liberals" are advocating are very new. And in only a few years, they have made America weak and vulnerable. We are entering a civil war as a result. The liberal values many people espouse on this site would have been ridiculed off the face of the Nation only twenty years ago. Put your liberal views in perspective compared to the ways of our people in the last two centuries and you may find that it is YOU who are crazy.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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The ultra liberal views the "liberals" are advocating are very new. And in only a few years, they have made America weak and vulnerable.
Can you give us some examples?
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WBraun
climber
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People who destroy whole nations do not have the right to teach us democracy and living freely.
This what you people are doing and have been doing for years and years now with all your stoopid fantasies.
You should all STFU and really wake up ........
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I am advocating conservative morals that made our Nation the free world. For hundreds of years, the values I refer to have guided us to success. The ultra liberal views the "liberals" are advocating are very new. And in only a few years, they have made America weak and vulnerable. We are entering a civil war as a result. The liberal values many people espouse on this site would have been ridiculed off the face of the Nation only twenty years ago
I guess you never read our Nation's history
We came from the Conservative Dark Ages that were the standard for the last 2000 years and had a Liberal revolution called the enlightenment that was the basis for the Constitution 200 years ago
The civil wars are always started by the conservatives trying to shove conservatism stone age morals and policies on the rest of the people.
We became weak and vulnerable because of the conservatives voted in with Reagan, that was the start of our decline, and the start of the defunding people and providing welfare for the rich and powerful
You can't point to a single policy voted in by the Conservatives that was good for the people in general, it's all for the rich and taking away freedoms, only the liberals have done anything positive for you and your family if you believe it or not.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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The false dichotomy of your conservative vs. liberal "teams" is silly.
They even give the teams colors and animal mascots! And most of the population will fall for it.
Learn to think for yourselves beyond the distractions of this silly propaganda.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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^^^
such complete BS
abortion
taxes
education
military
minorities
and so many issues are liberal issues that conservatives want to restrict
The liberals want to give us freedoms
The conservatives want to take them away or make them cost more
maybe some day your mind will be open enough and you are able to think for yourself to see the giant gaping dichotomy
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Your response shows just how uneducated you really are Craig Fry.
We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false. - William Casey, Ronald Reagan's first CIA Director (from Casey's first staff meeting, 1981)
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Yes, me educated
debating uneducated info wars devotees
I must be doing something right, I got all you fake News folks in a tissy
I listen to political news from independent experts all day long
how much politics do you take in?
please tell me exactly what I'm wrong about
be specific
and your quote is telling, a Republican telling us that they use propaganda to dupe right wingers
some of us are immune to fake news and propaganda, we are called Skeptics
show us proof and the original text.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Spot on, Craig. They have no rebuttal.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Conservative morals....pardon me but what does that mean? I'm familiar with good morals which, by the way, have no relationship to religious or political affiliation
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I listen to political news from independent experts all day long
lol... well you got me there... I have to work, mostly to fund the murder machine.
I have met few people, in person, who fit neatly into these supposed "teams" that everyone wails about.
Wedge issues (gun control, abortion, new bathroom signs, religions) are divisive nonsense designed to split the global herd into fighting each other.
The US murder and theft machine rolls on unabated regardless of who or what the chief puppet might look like. It didn't miss a beat electing the Orange clown over the war criminal... made no difference.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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madbolter1:
The trend of the last 50-60 years has been the systematic turning on its head of this logical priority, such that now (far too many) people honestly believe that "law and order" just MEANS that individuals CANNOT protect themselves
Actually it's the most important issue.
Gradual non-stop encroachment of totalitarianism happened regardless whether Democrats or Republicans were in power.
It looks like conservatives started finally awakening.
However, liberals still want full steam ahead to the 1984th.
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John M
climber
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It looks like conservatives started finally awakening.
However liberals still want full steam ahead to the 1984th.
I see it the opposite except maybe on gun control.
Its the liberals who fought about the loss freedoms and the invasion of privacy from the american patriot act. And its liberals who decry the invasion of privacy from the NSA. Conservative often seem to be all too willing to give up their privacy and their freedoms. They often say things like... "why be afraid, I have nothing to hide. I'm not a criminal". So they gladly give up their freedoms in the name of "safety". Then they misconstrue gun control as "you can't own a gun". Add in how willing they are to give more power to the military, some even wanting the military to do more policing within america, and to me it means liberals are more awake to the dangers of too much power then are conservatives.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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We have Liberal Gun Laws
Not conservative, conservative Gun laws would restrict them almost completely
The Right Wingers love their liberal Gun laws, which make them not true conservatives
and they are the first ones to take away our freedoms for safety
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John M
climber
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Craig.. you are playing word games. Its liberals who want conservative gun control.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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This is about a rapidly changing world.
People with a Liberal world view are open to change.
People with a Conservative world view don't like change.
Seem simplistic?
It is.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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True....and if you can't deal with change, change will deal with you.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Craig Fry: . . . a Liberal revolution called the enlightenment that was the basis for the Constitution 200 years ago
Hmmm, I believe an argument can be made that the bloody French Revolution killed off the Enlightenment. At least it made many question the validity of its final ideas. (And here we are arguing about them still.)
A liberal is a person who believes in liberty. Give men and women freedom, and supposedly they will do the right things. Their behaviors will be moral. A conservative believes that men unconstrained will not do the right thing: hence a focus on law and moral upbringing. There are also stark differences between what can be managed by really smart men (the liberal point of view) and those who think that interventions in complex situations often lead to unintended consequences: men are not smart enough to deal with non-linear situations with highly dense connections.
Your view of the Enlightenment, IMO, grossly glosses over the many differences among those who help it to arise. There is no doubt that the primary advocates were immensely and almost unbelievably successful, but the theoretical differences among Locke, Rousseau, Kant, Hobbes, Goethe, Nietzsche, Toqueville, Calvin, Socrates, Machiavelli, and others (during, before, and after the Enlightenment) are great. In the end, it’s “rights” versus “culture.” One can take either side and “win”— and find themselves in a morass of irresolvable or unsolvable problems.
I loath to say it this way, but I think that the smarter the person is, the more likely they are to think that they can identify the key problems, come up with the best solutions, and then completely execute them. If it concerns non-linear, complex problems, it almost never quite works out that way. Toqueville might have been most prescient. He favored democracy here in America when he travelled the country in his time, but he also said that our strain of democracy would surely lead to a most mundane and contentious existence. The democratic dangers occur when every man who decides for himself becomes enslaved to public opinion, and when consensus and accommodation are necessary. On the other hand, the non-democratic individual, deeply committed to values, are not easy going or maybe even likable. They have standards received from tradition, not derived from rational calculation of material self interests. They are the heroes, the saints, the geniuses, the artists, the aristocrats--passionate, sometimes savage, creative, soulful, charismatic, authentic, deeply willful, demonic beings whose greatest works are themselves. They seem to have had a proud contempt for the merely necessary.
In order to experience the freedom of mind, one requires the presence of alternative thoughts.
I believe it was Socrates who said that a peaceful wealthy society, where people look up to science and have the funds to support it, is worth more than any splendid imperium where there are slaves and no philosophy. :-)
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Your view of the Enlightenment, WTF?
you don't know anything about my view, I haven't said a thing about it except that it was part of America's early history on becoming a Country and it was a liberal phenomena
the Founding Fathers were liberals
and they fought for freedom against the Conservatives that wanted to remain an English Colony.
The Civil War was basically a war of Northern Liberals that wanted to maintain a liberal society and the Southern Conservatives that wanted slaves and to have the landowners become the leaders
and still
today we have the liberals fighting to stop the conservative agenda of ruin
2 sides, 2 points of view, one is based on reality and rights, the other based on lies that promote an agenda based on lobbyist desires
but if you're a silly fool, you'd say both sides are the same
Hitler and FDR??? exactly the same! both sides can't be wrong, just different points of view!
and FDR dropped a lot of bombs! so it must be true.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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I submit "the reaper" is not a person, and the natural processes that govern your mortality do care if you can adapt to change.
Darwin made that point pretty convincingly.
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c wilmot
climber
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The founding fathers would be called white nationalists and racists by today's liberals...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Careful, Mike. There is a penalty for providing such a clear and articulate exposition on this thread. Neoliberalism is highly restrictive of free speech.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Neoliberalism = Neoconservative = Neocon
Which was the Reagan/Bush platform
Yes, they were into restricting free speech, and they set up the wiretapping of everybody
I advocate free speech, just don't say things that are untrue
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I teach my kids that if they want more freedom, they have to accept more responsibility. The two are inextricably linked. I perceive that many people in America want freedoms without the associated responsibilities or accountability. This leads to stuff like the hobbling of the Environmental Protection Agency and and Department of Education. An abdication of responsibility that is masked by the shouting for freedom. The chasm created by separating freedom from responsibility will increase the divide between the rich and the poor, the haves and the have-nots.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jim, did you try that Malbec I sent you?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Breathe.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Craig, the solution is simple. Go nationwide to the mail in ballot system we have here in Washington (and Oregon). the ballot shows up in the mail. You vote then mail it in. There is a paper trail, there are no lines at the polls and no standing in line (in fact, no polls at all, saving dinero), and, except for the tabulation software, it can't be hacked but can be checked; there are signature records so ballots can be checked for authenticity. One can go on-line and see if their ballot has been counted. Is this so hard to understand?
There should be national voter registration standards, not the state by state mash we now have. The situation in Alabama (where I have family and once lived) is BS. The state closed driver's license bureaus in counties with large black voting populations, then required in person registration making it really difficult for poorer, car-less persons to register; gee, wonder why? Despicable.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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agreed
Federal Standard Mail in ballot
it needs to be unhackable
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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I advocate free speech, just don't say things that are untrue
Should Ann Coulter be allowed to speak at a university-sponsored affair, even if she might say things that you consider untrue? Could you tolerate that or would you resist? If I were to walk to a podium and say that the moon is green cheese, would you tolerate that, or would you resist my efforts and thus deny my right of free speech?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Another thread gets "Fried."
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Ann Coulter should be allowed to speak...
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monolith
climber
state of being
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She should but the repub club organizing the event jumped the gun before the venue was approved. She was given another date, but didn't like it because not all the students would be there. She was going to go the the plaza anyway, but her conservative sponsors backed out and she would not be paid.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Let Coulter speak. She doesn't have anything new to say anyway, she just rehashes the same tireless, racist crap over and over.
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WBraun
climber
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She doesn't have anything new to say anyway,
Just like you, same old tireless crap.
You must be twins .....
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Craig,
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying it's possible to have different views and be a sincere human being.
Consultants in my business have an adage they live by: "I may be wrong, but I am never be in doubt."
Be well.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Top o' the morning y'all! Love me some fried knickers for brekky! I'm off to Stonehenge, where at least people did something.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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for those who were trying to sort out what chainsaw was referring to a day or so ago...
he's almost certainly referring to bill 89 passed by the ontario government on june 1. as chainsaw alluded to, the bill, in part, apparently endeavours to protect the rights of children in determining their own gender identities, including the claimed possible ability of social services to take kids away from parents who don't respect those rights.
this story appears to have made the circles of the right wing media in the u.s. [the blaze, breitbart, etc.] which is why it's being brought up by americans on the ole taco...
but to correct a couple points of apparent confusion:
1. this is an ontario bill. so it is not canada wide.
2. while i haven't read the bill, i can virtually guarantee that the ontario govt is not forcing any gender on any kid, rather it is likely intending to protect the ability of a kid to self-identify.
not sure if chainsaw is still following this thread but in case he is, i have a few questions for him, if he's interested in some honest dialogue...
1. from your world view, if a traditional christian family adopted a kid previously raised in a home with more traditional north american indigenous world views [almost all of which traditionally had "third" gendered constructs of one form or another] and the kid identified as two-spirit, would the christian family, by your logic, have the right to punish the kid for not identifying as male=man or female=woman?
2. if a kid identifies as gay, does a family have the right, if they believe that being gay is a sin, to punish their kid? and in case your answer is no, my follow up would be then why can kids be self aware as to their sexual preference but not their gender identity?
3. you say you don't like the state enforcing gender on kids. yet, that is what has been done in western bureaucratic civilization in almost all of its multitudinous assemblages. the irony is there are hundreds of cultures that have and currently exist throughout the world [including on north american soil] who identify often three, but in some cases as many as four or more, societally accepted genders. if you are an advocate of individual rights, as you seem, why are you seeming to advocate for a parent's right to enforce traditional "western bureaucratic" or even "fundamentalist christian" gender constructs onto kid's own identifications? i know you recognized this anomaly and said you'd prob be called out on it. i'm not calling you out so much as i'm trying to understand if there is a consistency to what you are saying or if this just comes down to "my home, my kids, my world view... even if that is regarding a kid's ability to identify their own gender or sexuality"
anyway, this is admittedly a rocky subject. gov'ts potentially taking kids away from parents is a rough subject at the "best" of times... and given a conversation matter like the one above, i have to admit even i have some conflicting feelings.
flip side is anyone who thinks that kid's self identification is simple in the other direction, probably hasn't seen first hand the often long term damage that, even if well intended, attempted parental control and rejection results in for those kids who grow up identifying as queer [relative to traditional western cis/het constructs].
regardless of whether you're interested in dialogue or not, all the best chainsaw... i have no doubt that you are a warrior when it comes to the defence of your family...
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Just like you, same old tireless crap.
You must be twins .. Ha! What a riot coming from you, the transcendental polemicist. Down periscope.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying it's possible to have different views and be a sincere human being.
Yes, Hitler and his Nazi Party believed they were very sincere people
and that God was on their side
Just like Ann Coulter and the GOP
I never said you couldn't say untrue things, I just said I will challenge it if it's a lie
If you have to lie to make a point, you have already lost
if you don't know it's a lie, maybe you should wake up when you find out it is
if you always stay on the side of truth, the Golden Rule and what science would advocate, then you can be assured that you are on the right side
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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This is all besides the point
Looks like the 2016 election was fraudulent
Votes were changed or not counted in favor of Republicans almost Nation Wide
Stand By for the Hearings that will drip drip tib bits of info slowly
They may never tell us the whole truth, it may start a civil war
One thing for certain, Russia was successful of destabilizing our Country
Russia gave Trump a full Congress so he could get the sanctions lifted and the oil flowing, too bad it may not work for him so well.
Leaked NSA Docs Show Vote Hacking Issues Raised by the Green Party's 2016 Presidential Recount Were Real
The Greens were right during 2016’s presidential recounts when they pressed states to allow computer security experts to examine their election computing systems for evidence of possible hacking.
That is one of the top takeaways from leaked National Security Agency documents that describe how Russian intelligence services targeted and infiltrated e-mails and computers of a private contractor servicing state voter registration databases in eight states and also sent phishing e-mails to 100-plus local election officials before Election Day.
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/leaked-nsa-documents-dont-show-russians-stole-election-they-suggest-standard-gop-voter
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WBraun
climber
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if you always stay on the side of truth
You have no ultimate clue to what the truth is.
You are constantly guessing ......
One thing for certain, Russia was successful of destabilizing our Country
You have no clue. The only certainty is you are a brainwashed fool ....
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WBraun
climber
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No individual has ever died.
The illusion of death (cessation of the gross material body) is NOT and never the individual ......
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Craig: if you always stay on the side of truth, the Golden Rule and what science would advocate, then you can be assured that you are on the right side
Tell me: what makes you think you’re so right?
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Hello nah000, Thankyou for your input and tone of civility. As for adoption, its a very tough road. My brother and sister were adopted and my father never really understood where they came from. We had good and bad times. I believe that adoptive parents have to figure it out with their families. I recall what Ghandi said to a Hindu man who admitted that he killed a muslim child in the riots during Indias independence movement. "Adopt a muslim child and raise him as a muslim." Words of great wisdom from the great father of India, whom I look to for insight in matters of leadership.
Sorry if I came off sounding angry. I have been thrice the victim of irresponsible ignorant government regulation and meddling. My doctoral thesis was sold to a foreign government by corrupt beaurocrats. My music festival was shut down by competition from Ironstone amphitheater owners who were on the county board of supervisors. My climbing program was taken over by the US National team coach, and my way of life has been scorned by the mainstream for most of my life. So I dont trust captured governments. They do things that destroy many lives and take no responsibility. I lost my home in Davis as home prices skyrocketed due to government monopolies on development. And my trade was devaluated by illegal immigration. Please don't misunderstand, I have come to respect and admire those immigrants who seek a better life. But the cost to me has been very dear. I was assulted by BLM activists for being a white man in a classroom. I have no animosity towards those of different color or culture. On the contrary, I prefer the wonder of experiencing the great diversity of Gods creation. But I have been the victim of arbitrary hate against whites.
I can say hello to my students in ten different languages and use that as a warmup lesson plan when entering a new classroom. But I dont even want to enter a classroom anymore after I was viciously attacked by ignorant youth who saught to earn street cred by thrashing a white guy. They didnt even know me. We had never met. I believe that the government has empowered this kind of violence, perhaps on both sides. Social justice and cultural harmony are hard to come by. True harmony cannot be achieved by force. It takes a long time and alot of patience. I wish the politicos would butt out and let people find their own equilibrium. No amount of force can make people change the way they think. In fact, force seems to begat an equal and opposite reaction. This is certainly what is happening globally and here at home. I wish greedy selfish ignorant politicians would go away and let people learn lifes lessons on our own.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Tell me: what makes you think you’re so right? Prove me wrong on an issue then I will change to the right side
No one can offer any proof to the contrary that say's I'm not right, and I actively search it out.
I'm a Member of the Skeptical Society, we study issues so we are on the right side, and expose issues that are based on untruths, with science being the basis of final word.
It's not so hard to change your position on what you believe if you realize change is good, to be wrong is not good and will not cut it in an intellectual debate.
You really need to take up skepticism Mike, it would help you immensely
Take evolution, you can tell me you believe that God created everything,
I will say your wrong, you won't be able to prove your side, and to believe that evolution is untrue makes you a science denier, on the wrong side of the truth
Who's right about evolution?
I am
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WBraun
climber
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God created everything
And it has been proven since day one.
You are 10000% wrong always Fry .....
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nah000
climber
now/here
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chainsaw...
word.
your response helps me understand where you are coming from better than if you'd given point by point answers to my questions.
so thanks.
i think everything you just said, is important to say, and given what you've gone through, kudos for your being as lucid as you were.
in short on the bill 89 front: i don't actually have a personal opinion one way or the other, as without reading the wording of the bill itself, i don't know exactly where they precisely are trying to draw the line.
and the line between a child's ability to adopt a worldview as espoused by a government and/or adopt their own worldview vs a parent's ability to teach their kids in a way that they see fit, [esp. when it is with regards to something as important, complicated, personal, and early developing - relative to the somewhat arbitrary 18 y.o.s cut off line that society currently subscribes to - as sexual preference and gender identity are] is, seemingly to me, comp.li.cat.ed as fUck.
and if not done with care to potential governmental misuse and abuse, the intrinsic violence that is inherent to a kid being separated from their parents, is one that we all need to be very cognizant of. otoh, i also firmly believe in the right and importance to the collective of an individual self-identifying as they deem necessary, and i think the 18 y.o legal cutoff is way too late with regards to this question, as these issues of identity and sexual preference don't start to exist only after someone turns 18. so i don't actually have an opinion on what/where the line should be, or whether there should even necessarily be a line as current lines regarding "abuse" maybe sufficient.
i'll prob read the bill at a later date, so until then that's all i've got. thanks again for your most recent response. as a canuck living in a different province, i hadn't even heard of this bill, so if nothing else, it has given me pause to consider what is happening in my own country... all the best.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Prove me wrong on an issue then I will change to the right side
There is no right side. Nuances, shades of grey, complex systems involving more enlightened sociopaths twisting or completely fabricating the images we see on our cave wall.
While the shadows you watch are filled with Russian hacking nonsense over which puppet 'won' this last time, the seeds of yet another bloody conflict with Iran are being cultivated in the ME right now. The US MIC cares not who sits in the Oval office, as long as they sign the checks. The Orange one seems to have folded like a cheap suit in this regard, either out of ignorance or fear.
Our Israeli and Saudi 'ally' terrorists are continuing to ravage and destabilize the region, with full financing from our paychecks.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Our Israeli and Saudi 'ally' terrorists are continuing to ravage and destabilize the region, with full financing from our paychecks This is a Conservative issue, they built this
and they continue to lie about what these countries do
it's on the Wrong side
and it won't get better until we get the money out of our elections
a Liberal issue
next
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Still stuck on the two teams thing eh? Well... at least you're consistent!
Right/left. Red/Blue.
Sheer perfection in marketing the propaganda.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I guess it takes more brain power to understand the difference between the 2 sides than you have
Psychologists have studied the conservative and liberal mind and found major differences between the 2
for instance:
One side has empathy for others, the other side doesn't have empathy for anyone outside their tribe
one side is comfortable with change, the other isn't
one side believes that they are their brothers keeper, the other side believes in survival of the fittest, if you aren't fit enough, then you can go screw yourself
Maybe you just fear change, you seem fixed on Wrong information (Hillary and both sides are the same) and can't seem to change no matter how many times someone proves you wrong
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WBraun
climber
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Fear's post went right over the top of Fry's head as usual .......
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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As a growing number of former Republican government officials sound the alarm regarding Trump, there's an erie silence in the halls of Congress from both detractors and defenders.
Behind closed doors, the cenarios of transition are being strategized between Justice and the legislative. The mechanics get very messy if there's a hint of involvement by Mike Pence. Take notice if Paul Ryan suddenly makes an attempt to look Presidential.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Trump to Comey
"I need loyalty, I expect loyalty"
"Let it go, let Flynn go"
Does he think he's a mafia boss?
Did he ever bother to try and understand how our Gov. works? no
Jeff Sessions, Jarred Kushner, and Michael Flynn failed to disclose on their Security Clearance forms that they had met with Russian Diplomats, which has been confirmed to take place.
a Felony with a Five Year Prison term
are Republicans immune to the Rule of Law?
Yes, they think it's their law, so they didn't do anything wrong
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Obviously, it's obstruction of justice and he should be impeached.
But, he won't. Not yet. That'll come later.
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WBraun
climber
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Does he think he's a mafia boss?
He IS the mafia boss.
You seem clueless about everything ...
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Trump is not the Boss, he does what he's told.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Re WB's post:
Jun 7, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
Does he think he's a mafia boss?
He IS the mafia boss.
OMG! I actually agree with a Werner post. Likely for the first & last time.
Go smoking duck go!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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The smoking duck just won a free pair of cement shoes with sticky rubber from uncle vinny....
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Angus King has two more sets of balls to hang in his trophy case right next to Comey's (look up that previous testimony).
He's the mean Grandpa you were terrified to disappoint.
I pray for the day he gets a shot at Trump.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
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Nah000 That was an excellent post about Bill 89 in Ontario. The far right is going nuts here. End Times a comin'.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Our Israeli and Saudi 'ally' terrorists
Anybody still deny that the Saudis, and Israelis are the prime backers of ISIS?.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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SomebodyAnybody! re your post:
Chainsaw? A whole lot to unpack in your tirade, but I'll just focus on one of them:
I lost my home in Davis as home prices skyrocketed due to government monopolies on development.
You own a home, home prices skyrocket, thereby increasing your equity in said home, making you instantly wealthier. What's the problem?
Or am I misreading this and you couldn't afford your home, didn't make your mortage payments, got foreclosed, and after you'd already "lost your home" then prices went up, thereby "pricing you out" of the area?
Either way, your tirade seems entirely misplaced. You either got richer while owning a home as prices went parabolic, or you had already lost the house, which you couldn't afford, before prices went up. Your story doesn't really add up.
You make some very good points. I supect Chainsaw might have his own saw to grind about his own problems, that he choses to blame on our society & government.
And where better to share your own problems, than Supertopo political threads?
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nah000
climber
now/here
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7sacredpools: thanks.
that said, i regret saying as much as i did, as it appears some of what i said was completely mistaken regarding the actual intent/wording of the law. it appears the whole "ontario is going to grab yo' kids" trope is primarily an american alt-right and christian right fabrication.
i base the statement above on first, the lack of any other news source or authority reporting it either generally, nor specifically in the manner that the american right tilting media is reporting it, and secondly and more importantly due to actually attempting to work through the bill myself.
if you love wonkery here's your chance to be bored...
i was genuinely curious as per what the act itself says...
because the irony was when i googled bill 89 here were the news articles that came up:
christian post: june 4: Ontario Passes Law Allowing Gov't to Seize Children From Parents Who Oppose Gender Transition
heat street: june 5: Canada’s New Law Lets Government Take Children Away If Parents Don’t Accept Their Gender Identity
the daily caller: june 5: Ontario Makes Disapproval Of Kid’s Gender Choice Potential Child Abuse
the blaze: june 5: New law allows government to take children away if parents don’t accept kids’ ‘gender identity’
lifesite: june 5: Petition calls for repeal of ‘totalitarian’ bill allowing children to be taken from Christian homes
brietbart: june 6: New Ontario Law Enables Gov’t to Seize Children from Parents Opposing Gender Transition
media research centre: june 6: Canada To Parents: Accept Your Kid's Gender Identity, Or Lose Them
gospel herald: june 6: Bill 89: Canada’s New Law Allows Gov't to Seize Children from Homes That Don’t Support LGBTQI
russian times: june 6: New Ontario law allows govt to seize children if parents oppose their 'gender identity'
new american: june 7: Ontario Passes Law to Take Children From Parents Who Oppose “Gender Expression”
american thinker: june 7: Ontario Passes Law to Take Children From Parents Who Oppose “Gender Expression”
the american conservative: june 7: When They Come To Take Your Kids Away
canada free press: june 7: Parents to Lose Children to Government Gender Zealots
that is the complete first page of non-repeated news articles thanks to google.
and so you know i didn't cherry pick, all i typed into google search was "bill 89 ontario".
on the first two pages, the only two "actual news" articles were from the toronto star back in may and those were both commenting that the bill was not strong enough in its protections of children due to the wording that was being used.
but based on the christian, russian, canadian right and american alt right news media the consensus seems obviously clear: the ontario government intends to snatch up queer kids from good hard working christian parents.
and this is where i'm going to go on a short tilt... ie. consider this a trigger warning for all conservative "snowflakes"...
for fUcks sakes, get your heads out of your fake media and go read actual source material... aka in this case, the actual bill.
because, as i read a sampling of the news articles, i noticed there seemed to be no quotes from the bill itself. nor in the articles that i perused did i see any quotes attributed to canadian legal authorities...
so i looked the bill itself up. it's on the web plain as day for anybody to read for themselves:
Ontario's Bill 89
and then i did a "find" search.
not including the explanatory preamble there were four instances where the phrase "gender identity and gender expression" was actually used in the many many pages long bill.
they were as follows:
1. under paramount purpose:
1 (1) The paramount purpose of this Act is to promote the best interests, protection and well-being of children.
Other purposes
(2) The additional purposes of this Act, so long as they are consistent with the best interests, protection and well-being of children, are to recognize the following:
1. While parents may need help in caring for their children, that help should give support to the autonomy and integrity of the family unit and, wherever possible, be provided on the basis of mutual consent.
2. The least disruptive course of action that is available and is appropriate in a particular case to help a child, including the provision of prevention services, early intervention services and community support services, should be considered.
3. Services to children and young persons should be provided in a manner that,
i. respects a child’s or young person’s need for continuity of care and for stable relationships within a family and cultural environment,
ii. takes into account physical, emotional, spiritual, mental and developmental needs and differences among children and young persons,
iii. takes into account a child’s or young person’s race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, family diversity, disability, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression,
so... in sum... the first instance basically says the paramount purpose is to promote well being of children. and to do this the first purpose is for the autonomy of the family unit, including mutual consent, to be wherever possible pursued; the second purpose is to pursue the least disruptive course of action; and the final purpose is that services to children should be provided in a manner that among a whole list of other things takes into account a kids gender id and gender expression.
ok. interesting start. i'm definitely missing where ontario social services is being directed carte blanche to take queer children away from hard working christian families...
is one aspect of the bill that a childcare worker is directed to conside gender id and gender expression? sure.
is that made to be of paramount importance? not the way the bill is written above.
so let's move on. must be deeper in the bill...
2. under definitions:
(3) Where a person is directed in this Part to make an order or determination in the best interests of a child, the person shall,
(a) consider the child’s views and wishes, given due weight in accordance with the child’s age and maturity, unless they cannot be ascertained;
(b) in the case of a First Nations, Inuk or Métis child, consider the importance, in recognition of the uniqueness of First Nations, Inuit and Métis cultures, heritages and traditions, of preserving the child’s cultural identity and connection to community, in addition to the considerations under clauses (a) and (c); and
(c) consider any other circumstance of the case that the person considers relevant, including,
(i) the child’s physical, mental and emotional needs, and the appropriate care or treatment to meet those needs,
(ii) the child’s physical, mental and emotional level of development,
(iii) the child’s race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, family diversity, disability, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression,
hmmm... so a person when making orders or determination is among other things to consider the child's views and wishes, dependent on their age and maturity, and among a whole list of items consider the child's gender id and gender expression.
that same list says that a person making orders needs to consider a kids colour, ancestory, creed, disability, etc. and etc.
ie. again nowhere does it even come close to explicitly saying that of paramount importance is that queer kids be taken away from parents who have traditional views.
ok. only two more instances...
3. under placement:
(2) The society having care of a child shall choose a residential placement for the child that,
(a) represents the least restrictive alternative for the child;
(b) where possible, respects the child’s race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, family diversity, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression;
so that seems completely tame. just says when placing a kid in another home among many other things their gender id and expression should, where possible be considered...
boo!
and finally...
4. under best interests of children:
(2) Where a person is directed in this Part to make an order or determination in the best interests of a child, the person shall,
(a) consider the child’s views and wishes, given due weight in accordance with the child’s age and maturity, unless they cannot be ascertained;
(b) in the case of a First Nations, Inuk or Métis child, consider the importance, in recognition of the uniqueness of First Nations, Inuit and Métis cultures, heritages and traditions, of preserving the child’s cultural identity and connection to community, in addition to the considerations under clauses (a) and (c); and
(c) consider any other circumstance of the case that the person considers relevant, including,
(i) the child’s physical, mental and emotional needs, and the appropriate care or treatment to meet those needs,
(ii) the child’s physical, mental and emotional level of development,
(iii) the child’s race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, family diversity, disability, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression,
ok. amongst pages and pages and pages, those were the total usages of the word "gender".
which means, the general understanding i was left with, is that the directive of the bill is to balance a bunch of conflicting considerations including autonomy of the family, non-invasive action wherever possible and yes... drumroll please... they should "consider" the child's own views and wishes regarding their own gender identity and expression.
wow, what a completely grey and boring bill, that attempts to parse a complicated and grey world.
and the american right fake news has turned it into black and white bull shIt.
now... i am not naive. i get that this law can be misused.
as all laws can.
is it possible that the alt right's interpretation will become de facto practice with queer kids being ripped from the arms of their loving christian families?
sure, it's always possible.
but... and this is a big but.
there is nothing that explicitly lays that out as the intent.
in fact the intent as written is to wherever possible not make invasive action and is to respect the autonomy of the family...
there is also no evidence that the right's boogeyman has happened or will happen.
and finally there did not appear to be, as far as i could see, any legal authorities in canada that seem to be worried about the [mostly american] right's fears as being possible.
and the other irony was that when i went on a couple trans sites, there were complaints that the bill didn't really protect trans kids as the only consistent directive was for social workers to make "considerations" with regards to gender id and expression...
i guess we'll have to see.
but it looks, to my reading, like a completely grey bill attempting to parse a very grey world.
it's unfortunate, based on what i am seeing, that the [mostly american] right, is in this case, creating and then co-opting an issue that doesn't even exist, in a country other than their own...
in the process enflaming emotions in individuals due to issues that aren't actually currently in existence...
and so, in this case, to the christian post/heat street/daily caller/blaze/lifesite/brietbart/media research centre/gospel herald/russian times/new american/american thinker/american conservative "news sources"... all i have to say is a genuine fUck you...
given their unsourced and then incestuous misinformation they are a marauding pariah consistently preying on and then profiting from the genuine fears and rage of what are in general a segment of the disempowered...
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Fear's post went right over the top of Fry's head as usual .......
Actually right THRU Fry's head. Like the Lincoln tunnel.
All he's got is a crankloon cartoon world of lies and foolishness.
worth a hearty guffaw
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Nah000, I agree that preamble of this law is very nice.
However you need to take Ontario context into consideration.
Majority of Ontario parents (who have school age or younger children) are pissed off by relentless propaganda of homosexuality in Ontario schools (even without new laws) by Kathleen Wynne.
So they are concerned when they see "gender self-identification" phrase in this law and are afraid that it can be used as described in the sources found by you.
So devil is in the details and this law is seen by many parents as one more tool to drive her agenda.
And yes, "gender self-identification" can be used as a reason to snatch a young child from the parents (according to this law).
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nah000
climber
now/here
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^^^^
thanks for the response. i don't live there so a few questions, if you're interested...
"Majority of Ontario parents (who have school age or younger children) are pissed off"
do you have a source for this? i don't live there so don't know, but on surface "the majority of" aspect seems hard to believe... ie. is it an actual majority, or just a vocal minority? neither of which proves or disproves anything, just curious...
"by relentless propaganda of homosexuality"
any publicly available examples of what this "relentless propaganda" entails?
"And yes, "gender self-identification" can be used as a reason to snatch a young child from the parents (according to this law)."
so from their [and i'm assuming your] perspective the crux of this comes down to the idea that a parent should have ultimate dominion over a dependent child's gender identification and self expression until they are at the age of majority?
i'll be up front and it should be transparent that i'm pretty suspicious of this line of claims.
it is reminiscent to me of the christian right and their trying to force abstinence education with an otherwise lack of sex education down everyone's throats, in the process consistently and inevitably increasing the number of teenage pregnant moms and dads.
and so i suspect, without doing research, that your reference to "relentless propaganda" actually amounts to an in total few days of education, regarding the variety of human flora and fauna, over the course of twelve years of grade school...
but will attempt to keep an open mind...
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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nah000: "Majority of Ontario parents (who have school age or younger children) are pissed off"
do you have a source for this? I am not aware of such results published by any official organization.
My opinion is based on 1) quite a few conversations with Christian, Muslim and Jewish parents and 2) responses on social media.
"by relentless propaganda of homosexuality"
any publicly available examples of what this "relentless propaganda" entails? I do not have any school age child, so I can provide only examples communicated to me by other parents. These parents do not like:
1) textbooks for junior school describing how good is to have two fathers.
2) ability of homosexual family to adopt children
"And yes, "gender self-identification" can be used as a reason to snatch a young child from the parents (according to this law)."
so from their [and i'm assuming your perspective] the crux of this comes down to that a parent should have ultimate dominion over a dependent child's gender identification and self expression until they are at the age of majority? Not really. As you noticed age is not mentioned at all in this clause.
These parents are concerned that three or four years old children can be removed from their families.
I do believe that "children protection services" have too much rights right now.
Do you remember a case when last year a couple of children playing a block away from their house was kidnapped/snatched/captured by social workers? (it happened somewhere in Connecticut or nearby)
To me this is an ultimate example of what's wrong with such "protection of children" by the government.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Yury:
ok. fair enough... helps me understand the concerns better...
is hard for me to consider "my two dads" being used in a textbook or some such, being problematic "propaganda", just like it's hard for me to consider a textbook that uses examples of a mixed race couple, as propaganda either. but that was a big concern for the right at one point, as well.
i don't know, by this line of thinking, how or if we can create a pluralistic society...
as an aside, so you know in the definitions in the bill, it says: (a) consider the child’s views and wishes, given due weight in accordance with the child’s age and maturity, prior to discussion of gender id and expression...
so, while there isn't a hard age limit listed, it's not like age isn't referenced as being an appropriate consideration... so, i have a hard time seeing that a three or four year olds gender id and expression will be the reason they are pulled out of their parent's home...
finally, while i haven't heard of the connecticut case that you referenced, i'm sure there are bad apple examples, given that in north america i'm sure there are hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of interactions between childcare workers and children.
and so for sure we should be vigilant regarding overreach.
that said, one or two examples of inevitable overreach, should not, imo, bring the whole system into question, or be reason to justify the idea, that "they have too much power".
it's a delicate balance, and i'm sure the vast, vast majority of thousands upon thousands of kids, who are aided in being protected from abusive home lives are, in time, grateful for the intervention of and protection by the state...
edit to add: nwo2... no words really. except to say, must suck to wake up every morning and see the world through your eyes. you might be surprised to know that i can guarantee that, at least the lgtbq community that i am familiar with, is never going to advocate for the bullshIt that you have typed above...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 8, 2017 - 07:54am PT
^^^I wonder how long it will be until the LGTBQ community (or the powers that be) add a *P* to the moniker.
Anyone here ok with that? You know...adding pedophile?
Think it will never happen? Pffft.....Clueless if you do.
Go away, you hateful, homophobic weirdo.
Nah...you provided him with much more of a response than he deserves.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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New world order is a great handle.
He WANTS a fascist in charge. It's so much easier to actually execute gays, Muslims, and others, so we can return quickly to the pure bloods and the "real" Americans he believes in.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Lol, and along comes conspiracy boy.
I'm actually still active as a climber son, which you'd know if you looked at my trip reports. I'd sure like to see one of yours. Unlike you, I have actually provided climbing related content here, rather than just conspiracy drivel.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Somebodyanybody, you are mighty presumptuous. I rented in Davis for ten years while I worked my way through UCDavis. I never borrowed a cent. I paid my own way teaching and cutting trees. But my RENT nearly tripled and the tree business dropped in value precipitously as immigrant unlicensed "contractors" took over the trade. Lets do the math. Triple the rent and cut my wages in half. The housing crisis which drove many of us Davis natives out, I lived there thirty three years, was caused by Measure J, which put a moratorium on residential development. Of course cronys of mayor Dave Rosenberg, who became supervisor, all got special permits to build. Whitcomb and associates, Tandem properties etc. They had a government imposed monopoly. Housing costs skyrocketed and most locals were forced out unless they already owned homes. Meanwhile, jobs disappeared as construction came to a halt. I couldnt even get work pounding nails. Even with a masters degree, delivering pizzas and serving sandwiches was all that town could offer. The only industry in town was Beatrice Hunt Wesson food which closed. Davis smothered attempts to keep that site industrial and killed about 1000 jobs. They instead built a "farm to fork sustainable community " there. The homes are all over $1,000,000. Millionaires are not sustainable. The carbon footprint they create to make that kind of money is enormous. The electric vehicles they drive cause pollution in other states where coal is burned to meet ca electric grid shortage. NIMBYism in its worst most hypocritical form. I grew up in that town and watched it turn into an elite enclave for rich people only. The artists and musicians have been driven out. The VWs are gone (except for expensive Eurovans). The local community of low income residents were priced out. Now its all BMW, mercedes etc. Folks from Bay and LA. Hardly anybody I grew up with remains.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Pedophilia, or the fear of it is just another tool in the marketing arsenal. Anything involving children always is.
LGBT people or those similarly afflicted are no more likely to commit such a heinous crime than anyone else. Evil doesn't discriminate and never has.
Fearing the LGBTwhatever crowd makes no more sense than scary Muslims or the Irish, tall people, or those with brown hair.
Another distraction that works every time.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Wedge issues work best with propaganda when there is broad support both for and against. Both sides can be thus funded and vociferously debated ad naseum for distraction...
"Let's pass a another useless law to protect crimson sea monkeys from increased deadly EMF radiation from Trump's tweeting."
"The Wall"
etc... Mostly inane stuff with emotional barbed hooks.
Pedophilia is a moral crime and frequently used to demonize just about any targets. Check out the recent blurbs on Yemeni's "selling their baby girls". Dehumanize a new target and then it becomes more palatable to bomb and kill them (as we are right now).
It 'could' be spun into some kind of acceptance but it's value as a weapon of propaganda precludes that.... I hope anyway....
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Craig: You really need to take up skepticism Mike, it would help you immensely
You’re a riot. I don’t think you’ve read (or perhaps remembered) anything that I’ve written here over the past 10-15 years.
Craig, no one can provide conclusive truth of *anything.* (That’s my level of nihilism and solipsism.) Read research journals, and try to make notice of how things are phrased. Nothing ever gets proven finally, accurately, or completely.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Wrong
The sun came out today, FACT, True, proven finally, accurately, or completely
You can tell it's a lie if it is fabricated
It is true enough if it is experienced and collaborated
You Really need to go skeptical, one can follow your line of reasoning
Does is it provide you any benefit?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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The sun came up, the earth turned, the wind blew, the ocean is deep,
the clouds are in the sky, the moon circles the earth
all FACTS that cannot be denied
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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The sun came out for me
and for everyone nearby
so it is a fact
so you're wrong just like Mike
It's dark someplace, big deal, that does not negate my experience
The sun came out for you as well, it was just cloudy so you couldn't feel it's rays, so you lied by fabricating a story that was not true
Was the sun out or not, if it was pitch black, then you can say the sun did not come out, it you could see without lights, then it came out, FACT
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WBraun
climber
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Fried is insane ......
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I changed the word to you're before you even posted your correction
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Craig, this thread, and all the other threads you pollute, is not about you. If you woke up to that, ST would be a better place.
You say the sun is shining where you are. So why not get out into that sunshine and actually climb something. Or even just go for a walk. Maybe, if you get a bit of exercise and sunshine, you won't feel the need to rant on ST all time about everyone else being unable to see just right you are about everything.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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What does concern me is, pedophilia being made legal. It will happen. Mark my words.
Heck, I'm sure there are a few people on this site who are totally ok with it,
and will label those who oppose it as "homophobic".
NWO, you seem to be missing an important difference here. First, homosexual does not equal pedophilia. Second, a child is not capable of giving consent to sex. Two adults, of whatever gender or inclination can have consensual sex.
This is an important difference and why pedophilia will never be legal.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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How about this DMT
I was wrong
The sun did not come out for you
It depends on how you use the word out
The sun came out for me, fact
The sun did not come out for you, fact
See how easy it is to be on the correct side
edit
correction vv
The sun never comes out. The earth rotates on its axis. Fact.
it was dark and then light for me, and many others, fact
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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No, you were called homophobic for lumping pedodphiles (criminals who victimize children) in with people who have different gender identities and sexual orientations (people who already deal with enough discrimination).
No it will never be legal. And no there is likely no one here who would want it so. To state otherwise shows how out of touch with reality you are.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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NWO is just parroting the newest paranoia campaign
from Alex Jones
Former CIA Operative: Trump Is Battling Pedophile Network
There is an ongoing war against elite pedophiles who have gotten away with heinous crimes for too long
The Alex Jones Show - February 17, 2017
https://www.infowars.com/former-cia-operative-trump-is-battling-pedophile-network/
goggle info wars and and you get all kinds of crazy BS
It's a war on reality by spreading bad info
But!!! don't forget about projection,
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WBraun
climber
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Oh for Frying out loud.
Quit yer incessant internet whining ......
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Pizza Man... He delivers...!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sure NWO I'll offer an apology is P gets added, which it won't. But to even suggest that would happen very offensive to LGTBQ people.
That's like saying you are anti-illuminati. So you must be into beastiality. One thing has nothing to do with the other. And it's insulting and prejudiced to say it does.
If you look at the people who commit this heinous crime it's not LGBTBQ people at any higher rate than regular people, it's often people in positions of power, as you mention.
P will NEVER be legal anywhere in the USA.
There's plenty of real life corruption (e.g. quid pro quo for campaign contributions) that leads to unfair treatment of average people. Why don't you focus on that and make real contributions to making the world a better place instead of being like Don Quixote and railing against conspiracy theories and unrealistic scenarios?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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^^^^ This.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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That's like saying you are anti-illuminati. So you must be into beastiality
Which reminds me of something that's always bothered me about the whole anti-gay mentality. There have often been calls to ban gay teachers. Why? Because gay (or lesbian) teachers can't be trusted not to have sexual relations with our children of the same sex.
Well, yeah, but if banning teachers who might want to engage in sexual relations with our children is important, shouldn't we also be concerned with the 90% of teachers who might want to have sexual relations with our children of the opposite sex?
Face it. Your daughter is in far more danger of being raped by a heterosexual teacher than your son is of being raped by a homosexual teacher. Therefore we should ban heterosexuals from teaching, right?
Oh, and an apology to Fossil Climber for contributing to the destruction of what started out as a pretty interesting thread.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dingus: "Sun came out" is not the same as "sun came up."
Gosh, I didn’t know it was in the closet. (I am in right thread, aren’t I?)
Craig Fry: It's a war on reality. . . .
This piece of writing took me over the top. Poor writing often comes from poor or sloppy thinking. God help us if you work in the sciences.
(BTW, I’m betting on reality.)
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Somebodyanybody, once again you are presumptuous. You say my PhD was "unrelated." My doctoral thesis work was in Plant Pathology, specializing in diseases of trees, nuts and vine crops. In addition, I worked on strategic technology related to horizontal gene transfer by Agrobacterium and how host immune systems are downregulated (damaged) by that. That was the intellectual property which was stolen by foreign nationals who worked at UCDavis as Post-docs. Furthermore, to say that tree service is a simple skillset is balderdash. And if you said that around most tree trimmers you would get harshly schooled. It is one of the most dangerous professions a person can work in. Nearly 50% of lifetime practitioners get severely injured doing it. Approximately ten times as dangerous as rock climbing by the per participant injury ratings. Have you ever false crotched a hundred twenty foot tree in pieces between million dollar homes into a four foot space? That is what I do. Can you run a forty horsepower chainsaw a hundred feet off the ground while tied in? Are you able to sharpen a six foot chain by hand with files in five minutes? Simple skill set anyone can do my ass. As for "entitlement," when the city creates wealth for certain special people at everyone elses expense that is entitlement. I helped build that city, I helped build that university. I taught thousands of undergraduates and some graduate students at Davis. I wrote letters of recommendation that got my students into medical schools and pharmacology. I graduated highschool there and I wanted to stay. Calling it entitlement is BS. I guess you are good at trolling me. Steve Martin described you well: dull, boring and omnipresent, speak of things you dont know about, be oblong and have your nose removed. Sorry that was not very civil. I appreciate your well wishes. If I get pissed off its because this isnt an academic or intellectual discussion for me. These things are real. And for the record, Im moving out of California next week and I probably wont come back except perhaps for vacation.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Craig: It's a war on reality by spreading bad info This was my description of the Alex Jones' Info Wars Radio show
I guess you never listened to Alex Jones Info Wars, so obviously your assessment is more than sloppy, it's incorrect
please come back after you listen to Info Wars, below
Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
https://www.infowars.com/
weird?
and you have not proven that my facts are not facts, so I guess you just gave up and thought insults would work better for you
and by the way, I'm not an English scholar, I'm a scientist, I think fast and write fast
and it's not worth anyone's effort to write a wall of text to make sure you cover all aspects thoroughly to satisfy one person that wants to take you down, and that no one will care about next week
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Thanks Dingus
Here is some recommended reading for the searchers,
There is a little bit of something for everybody
NWO can read the article debunking Chemtrails, then he won't have to parrot the idiotic conspiracy nutcase anti-scientific BS about Chemtrails anymore.
There were no UFOs at Area 51, so you can check that off the list.
AI won't destroy us is the take away from AI experts.
There was a good article on the invalidity of a realty based on nihilism and solipsism several years ago, maybe Mike can dig it up.
The Rise of the Alt-Right describes the impact of the Republican Party embracing racism and Nationalism, and the implication is that both sides are not the same, these Alt-Righters are not sincere people and we should not be OK with their perspective.
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WBraun
climber
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Could artificial super intelligence destroy us?
This shows by saying "artificial super intelligence" that there is a "true super intelligence".
Otherwise, there would not be the word "artificial" there.
This also proves that modern science tries to synthesize the natural in their quest to "play God".
In that quest, (playing God), they have a huge track record of fuking everything up and then needing to "fix" it later and in that process breaking even more.
Just like their software they control their so called "AI" .......
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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????
Artificial Intelligence is computer driven intelligence
Super means super computers
Biological Intelligence is what we do
there is no true super intelligence in the dictionary
maybe you can explain
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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realty based on nihilism
Is that a euphemism for mortgage-backed securities?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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^^^
Such BS
I'm just showing people where you get your info to foment on
I don't talk about him, I use him as an example of pure evil masquerading as a prophet
Only a small population of people are stupid enough to listen to him
everything he says is BS and can be debunked with a smallest amount of brain power
NWO, You a Trump supporter ?
Most conspiracy loons are right wingers, they support the very people that they rant about pulling the strings behind the scenes, the billionaires and deep state, Republicans
I guess their eyes are closed, they need to wake up, open their minds!!
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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I will stand firm as to pedophilia being made legal.....someday.
Why do you think so many children go missing?
You know the term from way back in time....virgin sacrifice? That was just code for pedophilia.
So Murder is also going to be made legal someday? I mean homicides keep showing up day after day...
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WBraun
climber
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Maybe Fry is really a closet Alex Jones devotee ..... :-)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Craig,
I don't believe that you are a practicing scientist. Not with these kinds of comments. What kind of scientist are you?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Political Scientist
Mike, are you at all informed on current political or popular culture in the least bit?
I would have to say No
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WBraun
climber
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Fry will always ask you a question and then answer it for you.
Because he's experienced it ALL ......
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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^^^^^
I guess that makes this an easy thread to participate in, Werner.
Craig: Mike, are you at all informed on current political or popular culture in the least bit?
Not really. It’s all media events / entertainment from my point of view. I would say what Wittgenstein said: it is impossible to understand the culture one currently lives in. One has to get some distance, usually time, before one begins to see anything remotely clearly.
Furthermore, I don’t think any of it matters. I suppose if someone invaded my area of the country, I might pick up a gun again, but who knows?
I guess I find popular culture “interesting,” sort of.
Craig, I don’t see right and wrong as you seem to. I can’t think of a single thing that I could say is undeniably bad, good, or correct. I can imagine that stuns you because I’d bet you could pick out a hundred, a thousand, things that are undeniably bad, good, or appropriate. I guess that’s fine for you. I hope it’s fine for me to assume my perspectives.
If you want to correct me or show me the truth, I would hope that you would do so with some consideration, civility, and circumspection—as if I too had a brain and a heart.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Actually I am a Biologist
But I work as a Senior Scientist in Air Pollution
My life's mission since I was 18 was spiritual truth, I evolved since then to this point
I'm also a political junkie
I spend many hours a day learning about the current political news
You were the one that insulted me
I just want to debate the issues
so you need to respond with consideration, civility, and circumspection—
The hysteria is telling
right or wrong
Is it OK for White Supremist groups to harass American Muslims?
Politics affects all aspects of life, if you are privileged, then you have many opportunities to question our existence and how we can incorrectly think that we can do it w/o the privileges that our liberal society has provided us.
it's not so hard to debate w/o insults Mike, try it
This isn't a game of gotcha after a word or 2 is misconstrued.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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I've yet to see anyone counter Craig's points effectively and honestly. Just blather and insults. Silly.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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^^^^^ I've yet to see anyone counter Craig's... blather and insults.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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crankster... agreed
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 10, 2017 - 06:10am PT
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Craig: right or wrong. Is it OK for White Supremist groups to harass American Muslims?
This seems typical to me. First of all, presenting an either or choice set is hardly a debate. Well, maybe it is in the strictest of senses, but it also seems very adversarial and challenging to anyone who rises to the bait. It would seem that you’re not looking to work out issues, but confront people. You want a fight, I would say.
Second, the way the question about White Supremist and American Muslims is put loads the conversation with a premise that some people would hardly posit in that way. You make an assessment that itself cannot be questioned, and it’s incendiary. Then you ask if it’s ok. It’s the beginning of a rant, and it encourages others to rant in response.
You seem very angry, all the time, Craig. Does that feel good to you? I guess it’s ok with me, but IMO your posts incite disputes that cannot be engaged with consideration, civility, and circumspection because they aren’t posed that way to begin with.
You do have, however, followers, and you do generate more posts from others by what you say. I suppose that’s what’s going on here.
Be well.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 10, 2017 - 06:52am PT
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Craig: right or wrong. Is it OK for White Supremist groups to harass American Muslims? Oh my God Mike
I didn't realize you were so out of current events
This reality happened 2 weeks ago with the end result being 2 dead men trying to defend the Muslims
White supremacist arrested in fatal stabbing of two men after anti-Muslim rant in Portland
A 35-year-old white supremacist with a criminal record has been arrested in connection with the stabbing deaths Friday of two men on a light-rail train in Portland, Ore., who intervened when he began to hurl anti-Muslim epithets at two women, one who was wearing a head scarf, police said.
Good or bad?
You make an assessment that itself cannot be questioned, and it’s incendiary.
Mike So it's incendiary to ask about current events?
and that is being questioned by millions of concerned citizens
Sorry, I just assumed you were informed on current events
Mike, you must listen to Alex Jones, please
for educational purposes
supremacist next time I need to get the spelling correct
not angry
just a debate for educational purposes
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Vlad Pricker
Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
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Jun 10, 2017 - 08:35am PT
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More Trump Derangement Syndrome.(TDS)
Yes, we already know that Trump is deranged. What else is new?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 10, 2017 - 08:56am PT
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SomebodyAnybody: . . . as a counter to your statement that, to you, nothing is good or bad.
You forgot the word, “undeniably.” My statement about debate is what I thought Craig was claiming. I guess my idea of debate is different than yours or Craig's.
A gentleman’s tone is strident? Ok.
Nihilism is a “seeing.” For those who see that there is no value that doesn’t rely upon a philosophy or ideology, foolishness is not possible. (Think about it.)
(I guess I shouldn’t say “be well” to you.)
Craig:
Sure I heard about the event in Portland. Try not to get too upset about it. It’s a few people.
If you need events to wring your hands over, you can consider the number of wars going on at the moment, and the results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 10, 2017 - 09:07am PT
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Goggle
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.
Nihilism (/ˈnaɪ.ᵻlɪzəm/ or /ˈniː.ᵻlɪzəm/; from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical doctrine that suggests the lack of belief in one or more reputedly meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that there is no inherent morality, and that accepted moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism may also take epistemological, ontological, or metaphysical forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or reality does not actually exist.
The term is sometimes used in association with anomie to explain the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence that one may develop upon realising there are no necessary norms, rules, or laws.[2] Movements such as futurism and deconstruction,[3] among others, have been identified by commentators[4] as "nihilistic".
Nihilism has also been described as conspicuous in or constitutive of certain historical periods: for example, Jean Baudrillard and others have called postmodernity a nihilistic epoch;[5] and some religious theologians and figures of religious authority have asserted that postmodernity[6] and many aspects of modernity[3] represent a rejection of theism, and that such rejection of theistic doctrine entails nihilism.
Is there any benefit?
or are we done here?
I don't see how someone can debate with someone that denies everything
I guess this debate may not even be happening, How can we know for sure?
I'm not wringing my hands, I just want to know what's going on, it doesn't hurt to know,
I'm a big boy, I can handle it.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 10, 2017 - 09:16am PT
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Solipsism (Listeni/ˈsɒlᵻpsɪzəm/; from Latin solus, meaning 'alone', and ipse, meaning 'self')[1] is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind. As a metaphysical position, solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist.
wiki
What makes solipsism a bad, incohent, or unviable philosophy?
https://www.quora.com/What-makes-solipsism-a-bad-incohent-or-unviable-philosophy
This is beautifully answered in David Deutsch's book "The Fabric of Reality". It comes down to these things:
1. it is not testable. therefore it cannot be validated any more than any other non-testable idea.
2. It does not add any explanatory power while making things more complicated: If the world you perceive is actually just imagination, then still it affects you. An "imaginary" injury still hurts. The imaginary planets still move according to apparent laws. Therefore they should be explored and investigated. Imaginary laws are still laws. If then, without any good reason, you introduce a hypothesis about solipsism into this world, you do not explain the perceived environment (with all its virtual effects on you) a tad better; you just add a very complex, untestable component. Nothing won.
3. There is a paradox: Solipsism cannot actually imply that there is just one mind. Because this mind is exposed to some (imaginary) environment, it does not have this environment under its own control. So, actually solipsism requires two kinds of minds: consciousness/awareness and a second part that is out of control. This second part is the reality. It does not matter so much if it is then tangible or intangible: It affects the conscious/aware part of that mind.
This second part is the reality
2 Realities, the one inside the mind, and the real one that you still have to live no matter what you mind thinks
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:29am PT
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The Big Bamboozler
God bless those Americans
Who voted for their savior
If Jesus were a businessman
He'd have combover orange hair
May god protect and keep him
For there's no there, there
With that Russian hacking witch hunt
And collusion in the air
Bada bing, bada boom
He'll make America great again
Bada bing, bada boom
Nothing shady, nothing cheesy
Bada bing, bada boom
A big wall and Muslim ban
Bada bing, bada boom
Who knew it would be so easy?
God bless all those republicans
Who bowed down to his followers
Just to clinch the majority
They couldn't get much hollower
They would sell out their own mothers
In the hope to wield more power
Now they've sold their souls to Satan
And we all must watch him glower
Bada bing, bada boom
He's ready to make America great
Bada bing, bada boom
With all those nukes back on the plate
Bada bing, bada boom
There's always someone new to hate
Bada bing, bada boom
He will will get angrier, just wait
God bless all those Americans
We shall reap what they have sewn
God bless them for their ignorance
But now their racism can show
God bless all those Americans
For little did they know
They've been duped by the biggest bamboozler
The world has ever Known
Bada bing, bada boom
He'll make America great again
Bada bing, bada boom
You thought the Mafia was sleazy?
Bada bing, bada boom
Who knew it would be so easy?
Bada bing, bada boom
To let a con supplant your brain
-bushman
06/10/2017
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 10, 2017 - 02:17pm PT
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Very nice, Bush.
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Vlad Pricker
Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
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Jun 10, 2017 - 02:22pm PT
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All interesting. A lot of good points, about metadata and AI. How come nobody has mentioned Cambridge Analytics?
I suppose in some people's eyes and views, it is not worth mentioning. Not in my eyes though, nor my views. The manipulation, especially using social media.
Everybody is doing it, the loco motion.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 10, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
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So some people are demonstrating against the idea of implementing Sharia in the US?
Stripped from Wiki:
A 2011 UNICEF report concludes that sharia law provisions are discriminatory against women from a human rights perspective. In legal proceedings under sharia law, a woman’s testimony is worth half of a man’s before a court.
UNICEF and other studies state that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates – Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) – are Islamic-majority countries where the personal laws for Muslims are sharia-based.
Rape is considered a crime in all countries, but sharia courts in Bahrain, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Morocco, Syria and Tunisia in some cases allow a rapist to escape punishment by marrying his victim, while in other cases the victim who complains is often prosecuted with the crime of Zina(adultery).
Starting with the 20th century, Western legal systems evolved to expand women's rights, but women's rights under Islamic law have remained tied to the Quran, hadiths and their fundamentalist interpretation as sharia by Islamic jurists.
Yeah, that sounds like a recipe for success...
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
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Does anyone really think that American Muslims want to trade their lifestyle in America for Sharia Law?
It makes no sense. It is like saying all Christians support the KKK.
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Vlad Pricker
Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
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Jun 10, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
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Will, I agree on that one. Sharia law is an obsolete archaic system, sort of like the Electoral College, but far, far worse (though the latter did put Trump in office).
I, for one, think that many religions have taken at least one step out of their "ancient" roots, but Sharia Law is worrying. It is so seventh century.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 10, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
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Craig:
I’m not sure what subset would constitute a “true nihilist.” I don’t agree with the definition you provided. It doesn’t matter, does it?
I don’t believe in any value being sacrosanct or paramount. They are all socially constructed. They are all culturally dependent.
How about you?
As for solipsism, the definition seems in the ballpark for me.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 10, 2017 - 07:26pm PT
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Me, not a nihilist or solipsist
The nihilist post were the first 2 Goggle entries, the first one was a little more harsh than I would agree upon
Now a skeptic that questions everything that hasn't been subject to extensive scientific scrutiny
It's a comfortable place to be
I can't see me diverting from this position
UNLESS!!! there is evidence that proves me wrong, then I will embrace the new reality
live in the moment, in the living reality that we all experience, embrace it because that's all there is us as humans, ~80 years of experiences, make them great
there isn't much more...
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 10, 2017 - 08:05pm PT
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Sharia Law will never be law in America just as Christian Biblical Law will never be the law of the land.
Our Constitution is set up to maintain a separation between Government and Religion
So if you fear Sharia Law... you are paranoid xenophobe
my opinion open to debate
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 11, 2017 - 10:37am PT
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Demonstrating against sharia law in the US is just about the biggest demonstration of gullibility and strawman building ever.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jun 14, 2017 - 04:18pm PT
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So today's events?
Susan
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 14, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
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Solipsism cannot actually imply that there is just one mind. Because this mind is exposed to some (imaginary) environment, it does not have this environment under its own control. So, actually solipsism requires two kinds of minds: consciousness/awareness and a second part that is out of control. This second part is the reality. It does not matter so much if it is then tangible or intangible: It affects the conscious/aware part of that mind.
Ah, isn't pseudo-philosophy fun? Of course, it's better to be rigorous. But that's not fun, nor is it as easy as just popping off with quotes.
There is no paradox, CF. Idealistic Solipsism is internally consistent and does imply one mind without paradox. "... it does not have this environment under its own control." But of course it does. It might not realize that it does, but that is an epistemic consideration rather than a metaphysical one. The Idealistic Solipsist says, "The fact that the one mind doesn't know that it controls the 'external reality' (that it in fact creates) is entirely consistent with and even predicted by the theory."
Okay, now back to your regularly-scheduled politard "discussion" (that CF clearly has enough time on his hands to dominate).
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 14, 2017 - 04:39pm PT
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anti-sharia-demonstrators-hold-rallies-in-cities-across-the-country
So now we are coming out against religious laws, that largely have to do with personal conduct, such as the Sharia admonition about charity.
So next we will be against Jewish law, that has to do with burial practices?
Or against Catholic law, that has to do with who can have communion, and eating fish on fridays?
Or are we going to practice religious freedom?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 14, 2017 - 07:04pm PT
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Ah, isn't pseudo-philosophy fun?
Madbolter, as you're aware, I've disagreed with you from time to time, but, next time you're in Seattle, I'll be happy to buy you a beer for your post, above.
One can get way too far down the rabbit hole of philosophy, but pseudo-philosophy, and, worse, pseudo-logic is a far bigger mistake.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 14, 2017 - 10:49pm PT
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Thanks, Ghost. I'm occasionally up in the gorgeous North West, and I'll happily take you up on it.
Cheers.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 08:17am PT
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Although we finally have a Christian president again,
Trump is NOT a Christian President.
He's a show bottle (phony) Christian president that goes thru the motions when needed to give the illusion he is ......
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jun 15, 2017 - 08:23am PT
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Damn WB, a cogent and well articulated statement that I totally agree with. I'm stunned and impressed.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 15, 2017 - 08:39am PT
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Trump lives by Christian values, which is indeed very different than Obama.
Right on! Everybody knows Obama was a Satanist who ate white babies!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 09:02am PT
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Why there is no protests against those laws?
Because, thankfully, we don't live in a theocracy, and these laws are not enforced by any nation on Earth.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 09:25am PT
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^^^ I hear that quite a bit, and I'm honestly not sure what it means. So, I can't agree or disagree yet.
I mean, a large number of our founders were not Christians, and they certainly (if we care to be even minimally originalists) wanted to establish a separation between church and state (the meaning of which remains open to debate).
They accepted "Christian" moral principles, but I'm not convinced that it's because these are "Christian" moral principles, as most of them can be derived via at least a Kantian ethical theory completely apart from any appeal to any sacred texts.
And Christians believe in a moral code that goes FAR beyond what we would think of as "Christian principles" to be enshrined in law. Right? I mean, would you want to see a national Sunday law enforcing that people keep the "Christian Sabbath"? I sure hope not.
So, again, I'm just not sure what "Christian nation" really means.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:00am PT
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Thanks, bragman. Not to minimize your assertion, which is probably sincerely held, but I'm not "certain" that I have hands, even as I look down at them. I'm certainly not certain about Obama's religious beliefs.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 15, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
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Trump turned up the contrast and hyperbole to 11 during his campaign so he could appear to be an "outsider". The net affect has been to drive even more partisanship. We are getting sucked into his black hole of ugly intolerance.
The more divided we are, the easier we are to manipulate. People need rely more on healthy skepticism rational thinking, not mindless obedience to rigid ideologies.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 15, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
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Stahlbro,
That’s one way of looking at it. There are others.
I’m not for or against Trump, but from a management perspective, sometimes an organization is so dysfunctional that it takes an iconoclast to reset a culture and direction.
I admit that sometimes a medicine may do more harm than its intended effects.
As much as you want people to think for themselves (me, too), they may not for many understandable reasons. In that case (so the theory goes), you will have to lead and manipulate them. I’m not saying that Trump is that smart, but I am claiming that a leadership that may produce some result may well be a leadership that we don’t want or abhor.
Be well.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 15, 2017 - 03:52pm PT
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Mike L,
I appreciate your perspective, but I have yet to see any positive change from this particular catalyst. Unless there is a significant change in tone, the concept of a reforming "outsider" is going to take serious credibility damage, and we will end up with the status quo again.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 04:01pm PT
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Trump should be a blessing in disguise.
America is waking up and saying OMFG WTF have done, lol.
They will say aaarrrrggggg who the fuk put these clowns in our office.
Ho maannnn .......
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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Jun 15, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
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But I am certain that Obama is not a Christian.
Hah - IDGAF what religion any of these yahoos claim to be to pander to the weak minded. I'd actually prefer a proud atheist were POTUS.
However if you stack up Obama's principles and actions I'd wager he comes out pretty good compared to other POTUSes (POTUSii?) and certainly better than the present POTUS in terms following the "teachings of christ" or whatever.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jun 15, 2017 - 05:04pm PT
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Look to the acts, not the words of an individual to see if they are 'Christian'. I look at Trump and see nothing Christian at all, quite the opposite; no empathy, no concern about the welfare of others, simply a huge sucking ego of me, me, me. Trump vs Obama as to religiosity? Obama in a landslide.
And what is wrong with not being a Christian? The founding fathers were mostly Diests, although that is no longer taught in school as it was when I was young. I'm not a Christian but am not a bad person because I'm not. Don't tell me I have to follow the rules of some religion I don't believe in just because you believe it's 'God's' word. I believe otherwise. That's what America is about.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
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winemaker -- "Don't tell me I have to follow the rules ..."
YOU WILL follow and do as I say!!!
YOU WILL obey!!!!
When you come to the stop light and you WILL STOP ..... :-)
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Jun 15, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
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If you don't like religion I've saved up some extra mucous and froze it in a five gallon bucket from when I was sick last week.
Werner, Moodedrool?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
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Has anyone noticed that comedians seem to be losing their sense of humor?
Their jokes are rarely haha jokes, but applaud lines to the peanut gallery that aligns politically...sigh
Edit: Bill Burr is not political, but how would this hilarious rant on Jimmy Fallon go over on today's college campuses?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Jun 15, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
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I'll take my mucous and go home if you don't like it.
Mucous is what's left after the smoke clears after all the politicians go off on their next eight week vacation.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jun 15, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
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Save the bucket of phlegm, man. Use it to douse the "Reichstag Fire."
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jun 16, 2017 - 08:16am PT
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I'm a radical Duck; when there's no car lights at night I don't stop for red. But, but I feel strangely compelled to follow your instructions ........... The light!!! I see the light!!! I do believe!!!
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jun 16, 2017 - 09:24am PT
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Moose, yer right. I just left my headlamp on and got confused. Guess no religious conversion for me today.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jun 25, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
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Don't you people have homes
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jun 25, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
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I’m not saying that Trump is that smart, but I am claiming that a leadership that may produce some result may well be a leadership that we don’t want or abhor.
Some result? That's a bit open ended.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 27, 2017 - 07:37am PT
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"Wag the Dog"
It's been "wag the dog" since the MIC felt the need to murder over a million Vietnamese. Probably long before that too...
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 27, 2017 - 08:30am PT
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It is all theatre so Trump can pretend to stand up to Putin and Russia. I'm sure they agreed to do this every once and a while so Trump can maintain his cover.
I hope Trump and his generals aren't dumb enough to start WWIII, but nothing would surprise me at this point.
Edit
Thanks TH
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 27, 2017 - 08:42am PT
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Russia/Putin hate Trump, they just fed his ego by being nice to him so they can use him as their tool
They would have no trouble doing whatever they want, and having dumb ass Trump f*#k with them or their allies will just make them more hostile.
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c wilmot
climber
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Jun 27, 2017 - 08:45am PT
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Trump is simply picking up where obama left off.
Doing as he is told
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 27, 2017 - 08:46am PT
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oh the stupidity of the right will never cease to amaze me
may I ask who is telling them to do what?
^^^
and I guess some people never listen to real news
The Russian noose around Trump's throat is tightening every day
The Russian money laundering and Russian loans will be the nail
Does Red Swami delete all his posts?
His Russian BS post is gone.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 27, 2017 - 09:54am PT
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Trump is simply picking up where obama left off.
Doing as he is told
Pretty much... same as the Shrub before Barry...
There's a good recent video somewhere of Putin, of all people, describing what he hoped for with Trump but then describing how a leader initially comes into office with all sorts of great ideas. Then a few men in dark suits and dark ties greet the new 'leader' and proceed to explain how things really work.
Nothing changes, the MIC murder machine rolls on.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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This morning amid all the Trump-Mika/Joe bitter twitterness, Joe Scarborough said on the air he thinks Trump may be in fact going nuts. Joe claims he's known Trump for several years and he seems a different person now. Almost as if he's unhinged.
Which obviously he is.
One truly bizarre thought I've had is that the Russians are in fact getting some sort of poison to him which is pushing him over the psychotic edge.
Putin would if he could. And I'm pretty sure he can.
Polonium (like Putin used on the poor devil in London) would be too obvious when/if discovered as there are only about 5 states that have access to it. But you can be sure ex-Stazi Putin would do it to Trump if he thought he could get away with it.
Who knows, perhaps Melania is Putin's secret delivery device.
Just the musings of a guy who's lived through the Vietnam War, Watergate, two invasions of Iraq on "trumped up" pretenses, a 16 year war in Afghanistan, and now the most unpredictable (dare I say insane) president ever. Trump/Voldemort makes Goldwater (nuke North Vietnam) and Nixon seem well grounded.
an apology for his outlandish behaviour, Drumpf is like several business moguls I've worked for. Never apologize.......ever. Its' the very best way to lose a court case. It happened to me.
Drumpf may be nuts but he's not stoopid.
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WBraun
climber
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You people are absolutely brainwashed insane.
The NYT and CNN both had to say the Russian meddling was all made up lies by their own media.
NSA also said the whole Russian meddling as bullsh!t made up crap to distract you stoopid people.
Still you stoopid Americans are still propagating this total Russian bullsh!t as true.
You Americans belong in the nut house because you are insane and believe every bullsh!t story you are fed by the CIA news media outlets .....
There is NO hope for you idiots.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Typical memory exploit involves code injection•Put malicious code in a predictable location in memory, usually masquerading as data•Trick vulnerable program into passing control to it–Overwrite saved EIP, function callback pointer, etc.Defense: prevent execution of untrusted code•Make stack and other data areas non-executable–Note: messes up useful functionality (e.g., ActionScript)•Digitally sign all code•Ensure that all control transfers are into a trusted, approved code imageslide 3
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jul 26, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
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Mueller is moving in on his tax returns- it's only a matter of time now.
North Korea presents the most plausible, engineered National Emergency.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
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Get a grip...
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docsavage
Trad climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Jul 27, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
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The longer this shitshow drags on the more it seems as though there is nobody Trump would not rather make money off of & not war with ... I mean NOBODY ...
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jan 17, 2018 - 01:57pm PT
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A looming midterm disaster along with impending indictments only makes this more plausible and imminent. And there's always a chance a terrorist cell will do Trump the favor.
I've never bought into this, wag the dog crap before but Trump's malignant narcissism makes this his most logical move. He knows a Democratic House and Senate means impeachment. It's also clear that the recent circling of the wagons by many establishment Republicans would give Donald daylight to survive to the next election cycle past the midterms.
A midterm disaster was averted for Bush because of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 17, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
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and bush 1 invaded Panama...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 17, 2018 - 03:16pm PT
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I've ap roblem with impeachment after sitting a new blue congress.
There would be so little time left in the Trump mis-administration, following the elections, for the impeachment process (surely no more than one year as an estimate) that one might be tempted, as am I, to simply say stick with the evil which you know because the successor could seek to follow up on the program or do worse, even (hard to imagine THAT).
Is this a sensible thing? Or a foolish one? Don't hold back. I'm serious for a change.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 17, 2018 - 08:03pm PT
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Pence is on deck and probably worse than Trump.
Dems would be better off just putting the stymie on more Trimp "plans" ala BitchMAC.
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