WWII era has ended

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Messages 1 - 35 of total 35 in this topic
jstan

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - May 29, 2017 - 09:41am PT
https://www.yahoo.com/news/merkel-warns-us-britain-no-longer-reliable-partners-130825785.html

There will be consequences.

1. The EU will make its own foreign policy and its own trade relations with both Russia and China.

2. Ultimately the EU will need its own nuclear capability.

3. It is not clear when this will happen but in time the dollar will cease to be the world's reserve currency. It will take time and further evolution of China's political structure before China can replace the US.

4. The unusual growth of the US economy will lose one of it's primary supports.

Edit to #3

China and Japan are each holding on the order of a trillion in US debt. It is the reserve currency. Those dollars have zero velocity and their effect on our economy is lessened. Our debt will become more of a factor once the dollar is no longer the reserve currency.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
May 29, 2017 - 09:48am PT
I can't imagine a more efficient way to further Russia's objectives than what is being done. The weakening of US-EU relations serves neither the US or the EU well, but it's gotta have Putin pretty delighted. He plays a good long game and we vote with a very short view and a wealth of ignorance.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 29, 2017 - 09:52am PT
Peace on earth, all we have to do is pick sides in the middle east and sell our guy 100 billion worth of weapons. What could possibly go wrong.
hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
May 29, 2017 - 09:52am PT
Naw- give it another year. Mid-term elections gut the Congress and Trump becomes a lame duck PIA.
Hope I'm right.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 29, 2017 - 10:07am PT
the EU has a nuclear capability: France

(it used to have the UK also, but that is about to end)

there is a growing international interest in nuclear disarmament, which is believed (by many) to be the only way to effectively counter future proliferation.

jstan

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2017 - 10:23am PT
Ed:

Nuclear proliferation is the scariest consequence. I did not even mention recent day increased interest within Japan for it's own military capabilities.

We are in the middle of a political tsunami.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 29, 2017 - 10:29am PT
The EU will make its own foreign policy and its own trade relations with both Russia and China.

They don't already?

Fakt: NOBODY, except Britain, hits above the Mendoza Line in NATO. They're
all a bunch of welfare hypocrites.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 29, 2017 - 10:35am PT
Is that how the U.S. has developed them, Reilly?

Unintended consequences?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 29, 2017 - 10:40am PT
We are in the starting months of World War III, determined attacks in cyber-space and a reductions of freedom across the globe.
Some might say that the republic once known as the democracy of the United States of America was the 1st to capitulate. . .
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
May 29, 2017 - 10:56am PT
I'm proud of Germany and the EU

They realize what a disaster this clown is. Tou can't fix stupid.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 29, 2017 - 11:00am PT
Is that how the U.S. has developed them, Reilly?

Well, they've gotten away without paying their agreed upon share for yonks so
I can't blame them for it; everybody likes free, don't they? I guess that
not paying your signed treaty share isn't being a hypocrite if you never
intended to pay it. I really don't know why we wasted so many American lives
to save them from the approaching Red Army. We should have just stopped at
the Maginot Line to save Alsace.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
May 29, 2017 - 11:06am PT
Congress does little as this maniac courts despots and wreaks mayhem on seventy years of carefully constructed American diplomacy with our loyal allies. Eisenhower and FDR are rolling in their graves while the electorate that voted for Trump are so entrenched in alternative facts, they'll never realize or admit the disservice. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. What a disgrace.

Happy Memorial Day Everyone !
Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 29, 2017 - 11:11am PT

The world of men is dreaming, it has gone mad in its sleep, and a snake is strangling it, but it can't wake up.

 D.H. Lawrence
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 29, 2017 - 11:12am PT
One of Trumps top guys admitted that coal is dead. I guess Hillary was right. Who wants to break the news to the coal miners? I hope they did not all go out and buy new bass boats on Trumps empty promise.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
May 29, 2017 - 11:28am PT
This alternative reality is making me physically ill.
Mars, why do you beckon to me?
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 29, 2017 - 12:28pm PT

John always puts up thought provoking threads. Unfortunately, most posters don't put as much thought into their posts. . .
Hoser

climber
Vancouver,Rome
May 29, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-global-famine-begins-un-announces-that-the-worst-food-crisis-since-world-war-ii-is-happening-right-now/5580929

Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
May 29, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
Trump is acting exactly like someone who is anxious to start a big war, to "Make America Great Again" (America thrived after both world wars).

His America First trade protectionism rhetoric was what European countries were actually doing before World War One. After World War Two, America and its Allies specifically sought to minimize trade barriers, so as to prevent another war.


I can well imagine that Trump, Bannon, and Kushner have discussed the benefits of having millions of people killed in a big war, and how delicious the huge war industry profits are going to be for fat-cats like themselves.



WBraun

climber
May 29, 2017 - 02:45pm PT
I can well imagine that Trump, Bannon, and Kushner have discussed the benefits of having millions of people killed in a big war,
and how delicious the huge war industry profits are going to be for fat-cats like themselves.

I ain't buying that line of fabricated mental speculation on your part of bullsh!t and I'm NOT a Trump supporter ......
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 29, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
I can well imagine that Trump, Bannon, and Kushner have discussed the benefits of having millions of people killed in a big war,
and how delicious the huge war industry profits are going to be for fat-cats like themselves.

Nonsense, more fake news. Trump and Kushner hardly know each other

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/trump-says-he-does-not-know-jared-kushner-very-well

Donald J. Trump on Saturday accused the media of exaggerating his relationship with Jared Kushner, asserting that “I don’t know him very well.”

“He’s someone I would see around the office and who, I guess, was working for me,” Trump told reporters on the last leg of his foreign trip. “Beyond that, I couldn’t tell you much about him.”

Someone is going under the bus


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 29, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
Well, they've gotten away without paying their agreed upon share for yonks so
I can't blame them for it; everybody likes free, don't they? I guess that
not paying your signed treaty share isn't being a hypocrite if you never
intended to pay it. //I really don't know why we wasted so many American lives
to save them from the approaching Red Army.// We should have just stopped at
the Maginot Line to save Alsace.

Your lack of understanding is exposed, again. This is not about them owing some amount of money to NATO, like UN Dues. It is about spending a certain amount (2% of GDP) on defense issues.

Perhaps we stopped the Red Army, so that you wouldn't have to learn Russian, Comrade!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
May 29, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
And perhaps the USA was supportive of other countries not investing in their own militaries so we could treat them as our vassals and stick our own military bases all over the world to extend our global influence.

Now we whine about the arrangement that we were probably instrumental in creating if not specifically enforcing.

Well, I have my backup plan. Wife is from Italy, good job prospects for both of us in Switzerland when my kids grow up. Sorry kids, you'll be left holding the bag. Start learning Mandarin or at least German. Prospects for Russian speakers looking pretty good a few decades from now too!

chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
May 29, 2017 - 03:48pm PT
This thread raises some valid concerns. But much of it is predicated on the assumption that US-Europe relations are going to collapse. But that is not what will happen. This sabre rattling from Merkel is a bluff intended to show strength. But she is bluffing, just as Trump is bluffing also. The United States will not abandon our allies in Europe. Think of these negotiations as a game of Texas Holdem. Noones cards are on the table yet. I think of Europe as like a spoiled child. The US is saying that we are going to take away their allowance if they dont do their chores. Merkel, the spoiled child, is now threatening to run away from home. But Merkel cant afford to leave the security of our protection and financial support. She might even go shack up at a friends house to see how much she can manipulate her benefactor, the US. But noone provides a roof over her head and protects her like we do. She will come home or not. But I think she will. We still love her.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 29, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
Chainsaw? I worry that you haven't visited Germany lately & also don't know their current economic strength.

Perhaps you should peruse this 2013 article in Forbes, before comparing Germany to a whinny child.

Mein Gott! What Germany Inc. Can Teach America About Economics

The story is summed up with this quote:
For now the key point is that Americans should simply take note that their mainstream economic commentators -- the same ones whose theories paved the way for the Wall Street crash -- are even less reliable on economies like Germany and Japan than they are on the United States.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2013/09/22/main-gott-what-germany-inc-can-teach-america-about-economics/#60dcc43b791f

And from Alternet, we have this article:


Why Germany Has It So Much Better Than the U.S.

Germany has somehow managed to create a high-wage, unionized economy without shipping all its jobs abroad.

The European Union, 27 member nations with a half billion people, has become the largest, wealthiest trading bloc in the world, producing nearly a third of the world's economy -- nearly as large as the US and China combined. Europe has more Fortune 500 companies than either the US, China or Japan.

European nations spend far less than the United States for universal healthcare rated by the World Health Organization as the best in the world, even as U.S. health care is ranked 37th. Europe leads in confronting global climate change with renewable energy technologies, creating hundreds of thousands of new jobs in the process. Europe is twice as energy efficient as the US and their ecological "footprint" (the amount of the earth's capacity that a population consumes) is about half that of the United States for the same standard of living.

Unemployment in the US is widespread and becoming chronic, but when Americans have jobs, we work much longer hours than our peers in Europe. Before the recession, Americans were working 1,804 hours per year versus 1,436 hours for Germans -- the equivalent of nine extra 40-hour weeks per year.

In his new book, Were You Born on the Wrong Continent?, Thomas Geoghegan makes a strong case that European social democracies -- particularly Germany -- have some lessons and models that might make life a lot more livable. Germans have six weeks of federally mandated vacation, free university tuition, and nursing care. But you've heard the arguments for years about how those wussy Europeans can't compete in a global economy. You've heard that so many times, you might believe it. But like so many things, the media repeats endlessly, it's just not true.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/why-germany-has-it-so-much-better-us

Disclaimer! I'm a 3rd generation Idaho Native & I don't love Germany.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 29, 2017 - 05:33pm PT
We should have just stopped at
the Maginot Line to save Alsace.

And more importantly their Riesling and Pinot Blanc.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 29, 2017 - 06:04pm PT
Fritz...Thanks for digging that up...
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
May 29, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
Impeachment proceedings begin in Jan. '19. Hang in there.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
May 29, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
if true: then it's about 40 years too late.



that is assuming that by wwII era one means u.s. hegemony in concert with european complicit/complacent-ness.

it has been primarily perpetual covert meddling in the [including the overt manufacture of] middle east [wars], that has kept the post bretton woods collapse, u.s. petro dollar as de facto world currency.



that said, the idea that we are in a post wwII era [as defined above] is, at this point, premature.

the world is still unipolar with the u.s. as our [not always so] fearless leader.



and whether a multipolar world is ultimately going to be "better" or "worse" is impossible to know.

what i do know, is that if it does happen, it will be a representationally more honest one.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 29, 2017 - 07:18pm PT

Good post, Fritz!
If a few people would realize we aren't so exceptional, maybe they'd get
off their duffs and demand better. . .
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
May 30, 2017 - 06:54am PT
Wake up Fritz. Germany cost Europe and Russia over 20,000,000 lives and $1,000,000,000,000 by attacking all their neighbors and killing Jews and Anyone they didnt like. Then the United states paid to rebuild their country and most of Europe. Now we spend our money for their defense. Its convenient for them that we have paid the price for their free ride. In my view, perhaps we should have COMPLETELY destroyed Germany and given her wealth to the French and the British and to Isreal. Instead we rebuilt and defend them. Germany destroyed Poland, Czechoslovakia, much of France, Belgium, half of London......Ukraine. Perhaps we should force them to pay their unpaid war reparations and then we will see what they have left. Dont defend them. You cannot rewrite history.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
May 30, 2017 - 07:08am PT
Hey there Fritz, sorry if my tone was bitter there. Friends and family of mine had all their fingers broken with pliers and watched the Nazis gun down their families while in a concentration camp. They were interred for being musicians. I shouldnt post so early in the morning. I was awoken by a flurry of group messages from a spammer.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 30, 2017 - 09:41am PT
When Republicans won control of all three branches I knew I would pretty much disagree with all of their policies. Elections have consequences and that's the way it goes. Truth be told a lot of what they will do won't affect me.

What worries me is that Trump is obviously unstable and has cognitive problems. When you read a transcript of what he says it is total word salad. I don't think he has a clue what he is doing and may reorder the western world with no rationally based plan.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 30, 2017 - 10:13am PT
The delicate balance of our political/economic environment was why I believed Hillary Clinton was not only the best choice for POTUS, but the only acceptable choice. It angered me to hear Berners so peeved about "us," when the whole WORLD was at stake.

But I still have hope. As I have posted numerous times, I am following a group of Twitterees that have been days, weeks and even in some cases MONTHS ahead of all mainstream news on the whole Trump debacle. If my comprehension of between the lines reading is right(and I think that it is) the IC has known for well, well, before last spring that Trump was being played by Russians. You know how sometimes the cops keep a watch on criminals because they will get information by watching instead of nabbing too early; information they otherwise can't get? That has been what's been going on.

One of them posted a quote the other day, from Ralph Waldo Emerson. "When you strike at a king, you must kill him." Much as it disgusts me to consider DT in the realm of king, I suppose in a way, the little fker has been placed on the throne, even as he is only the fingers of the true ruler. So, in order to save what is the basis of the U.S., all heads of the Hydra must be whacked.

c wilmot

climber
May 30, 2017 - 10:19am PT
Perhaps merkel is giving a subtle warning to the rest of Europe that Germany has imperialistic desires once again.

Who will save Germany and the rest of Europe from...Germany ?

The horror
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 30, 2017 - 10:28am PT

1. The EU will make its own foreign policy and its own trade relations with both Russia and China

The EU already has separate agreements with those two nations. Are you confusing NATO with the EU?

2. Ultimately the EU will need its own nuclear capability.

Why would a trade bloc need a nuke capacity? If they extend credit to say, an African country and that nation defaults ( due to the usual corruption) does this mean the EU bureaucrats will cut their lunches short by an hour to drop a few kilotons on Nairobi?

3. It is not clear when this will happen but in time the dollar will cease to be the world's reserve currency. It will take time and further evolution of China's political structure before China can replace the US.

It is by no means some kind of foregone conclusion that China is going to replace anything or anybody except a few pairs of my worn out socks. It's not the political structure that needs reforming in China, that is ,as regards the West, or China's economic position in the world-- what needs reforming in China can't be reformed overnight because it is traceable to the " one child policy" instituted several decades ago. China is experiencing the beginning stages of a demographic downshift, believe it or not, and this is recognized as a huge problem by the Chinese leadership. For that and for other reasons (technology) the Chicoms are very skittish about the future and are very eager to forge a closer interdependent relationship with the US. For the foreseeable future China needs the US far more than the US needs China.

4. The unusual growth of the US economy will lose one of it's primary supports.

This comment makes no sense to me.

One last word on the EU:

They are experiencing tremendous demographic problems in Europe. Because their fertility rates have been so low over the decades they are losing their highly educated people and there only option is to import millions of poor, uneducated consumers and workers, and fast, which is all shaping-up to be a big mess.

In the long run the only hope for the EU is exactly the science fiction scenario they've been aiming for : the dissolution of the European nation state and its subsequent inclusion in a global super state with themselves and their diktats in charge of a sort of regional political/economic franchise.
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