Discussion Topic |
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JLundeen
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 25, 2017 - 07:19am PT
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Just wondering if it's even worth my time. I'd like to know what the process is if someone has even been through it. I tried yesterday going to the courthouse to request a court date within the next month so that I would still be in California. The security guard at the courthouse said its a bureaucratic nightmare and they won't even schedule the court date for a few months when they realize the fine isn't going to be paid.
The details and what I want to fight are as follows. The ticket was issued on the highway outside of YNP, past the hotel, just before the gas station(el portal). There are many pullouts with no camping signs, this one didn't have one.
Is there any way that I actually can accelerate the court date? I'm guessing he 6th amendment doesn't apply here.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 25, 2017 - 07:45am PT
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Don't waste yer time unless you like getting angry. The justice system ain't about justice.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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May 25, 2017 - 07:52am PT
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LOL!!! get over it.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 25, 2017 - 07:58am PT
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Were you sleeping in your car or actually camping, as in chairs set up, stove blazing?
As for the ticket, just pay it.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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May 25, 2017 - 08:02am PT
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Before spending much time and energy mounting your defense I'd make sure the presence of a sign is required by the rule you allegedly violated. I'm not sure what you mean by the sixth amendment, but the purpose of the right to a speedy trial applies to people accused of a crime that are in jail awaiting trial. Are you in the clink???
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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May 25, 2017 - 09:07am PT
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Just pay it, or, you could go to Canada and ask for political asylum.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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May 25, 2017 - 09:11am PT
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You will experience great relief when you just pay it. Fuking with the system is worse than the fine.
You got a costly lesson in keeping a lower profile.
And thanks for the tip on the unposted turnouts.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 25, 2017 - 09:36am PT
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Dossing in turnouts can also turn out far worse than a puny ticket.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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May 25, 2017 - 10:10am PT
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J,
How does the security guard know that the court will "realize the fine won't get paid?"
Did you enter a plea at the court house already?
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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May 25, 2017 - 10:22am PT
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You have legitimate defense. Ignore everyone that says pay the fine.
Contact the U.S. Attorneys office by mail, send them a copy of your ticket, and tell them it was issued outside of the park proper, that you were camping off the highway where no signs were posted prohibiting camping. Include a picture of the site if you can.
Look up the statute they claim you violated (just google it), and it probably has language you can cite to, the specific areas in which camping out of bounds is prohibited.
Tell them you are not local, and having to return for court proceedings would be financially impossible, and that you don't want to pay the fine because you didn't violate the law.
Ask them to respond in writing.
At the very least you are putting them on notice that you intend to fight the case, and they will have to make a practical decision whether to pursue it.
I recently successfully defended 11 junior lawyers that blocked immigration buses by standing on the roadway but remained on the sidewalk. I filed a motion to dismiss that no federal statutes were violated, the sidewalk was city property. The gov conceded.
You can contact me directly if you wish to discuss it further.
(P.S., I'm a California attorney 35+ years.)
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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May 25, 2017 - 10:28am PT
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I'm with George, fight it if it's possible for you, Pushback through legal channels helps all of us with this kind of tooling. I've done it successfully
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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May 25, 2017 - 10:28am PT
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I had a similar problem, perhaps in that exact same spot. The thing that may trip you up (input George?) is that the sign that says YOSEMITE as you enter the park, may not be the actual Park boundary. That is how they tried to get me. Technically they will say it is out of bounds camping IN the Park (as per all their laws about this) rather than just a dude sleeping in a turnout that basically nobody but Caltrans or the county cares about.
Fight it.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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May 25, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^
do what the lawyer says, tool the tool. talk with the public defender, andras farkus, who is required by law to help you for free ss
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 25, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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Always wondered about the "drowsy driving" defense.
Isn't it wise to pull over and nap in your car if you are nodding out?
Do they really want you to get out there and be a danger to everyone?
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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May 25, 2017 - 10:33am PT
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Russ,
I was pondering that point after posting, but "Notice" is a huge concept in the law. One cannot be expected to know where it is proper - or improper - to camp without it.
jg
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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May 25, 2017 - 11:15am PT
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+1 for drowsy driving interest. Seems a negligence claim could be made if got rousted and then effectively forced a drowsy drive to move and they then hurt someone else. But for the forced removal... contributory at the very least.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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May 25, 2017 - 11:40am PT
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It appears that there is one 1/4 mile long section of Hwy 140 next to the motel which is in the national forest and is outside the park.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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May 25, 2017 - 11:49am PT
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IANAL. But that won't stop me from pompously spouting off on an Internet forum.
Drowsy driving defense would seemingly be undermined by saying, "you should have planned better and stopped in a place where it is legal for you to sleep." Otherwise, we would have defenses like "I had to run the red light because I didn't have enough time to slow down safely and I didn't want to cause an accident."
Fighting based on jurisdiction or lack of notice for a person exercising "reasonable care" seems like a more compelling path. This might trip you up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat
Thus, it is well settled that persons engaged in any undertakings outside what is common for a normal person...
And thus begins the trail of prejudice against dirtbaggery.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 25, 2017 - 11:53am PT
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The point where the park boundary crosses the road is marked on this map, where were you?
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c wilmot
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 12:29pm PT
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I would just pay the ticket. I have a map from 1982 and if clearly shows that whole area as being off limits to camping.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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May 25, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
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In my case... we were obviously camping. We had been there for a couple of weeks and even had a weight bench, weights, camp stove and spare VW van parked there, and maybe a pink flamingo, right there on the side of the road! They tried to tack on charges by finding human feces (fuk! Not ours as we did the restaurant every morning) "in the Park" amongst the poison oak. They said I was mad at the Park Service and thus, took a sh#t in the Park as a protest, many many times. LOL!
Anyway, they could not really figure out who was actually gonna bust me, so they brought in the CHP (for the car) Caltrans (their turnout) and the NPS (their Park). After a bit of a Chinese fire drill (can whitey still say that?) they decided somebody could probably throw the book at me or they could just tell me to move along... to Forest Service land!!!! Hahahaha! Sh#t does roll down hill. Moved on down the road and nobody looked at us again.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 25, 2017 - 03:06pm PT
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^^^^ +10 for the pink flamingo!!!!
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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May 25, 2017 - 03:20pm PT
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Scott,
Ignorance of the law is a very general premise basically preventing you from arguing "I didn't know it was illegal to have sex with a 14 year old."
Ignorance of the boundaries of the park is a defense, especially where they put up signs advising it is illegal to camp in some places and not others.
What's a person supposed to do?
Fight the ticket.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 25, 2017 - 04:35pm PT
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Ignorance of the boundaries of the park is a defense, especially where they put up signs advising it is illegal to camp in some places and not others.
What's a person supposed to do?
That may be right, I don't know, but it's not self-evident.
Don't we need to look at the law at issue to have an opinion one way or the other?
I don't see any problem with a law that makes it illegal to camp on park land, whether or not that's posted. That wouldn't be true for something like a speed limit, which really doesn't have any meaning unless it's posted (other than generally applicable laws like "the speed limit is 25 in towns unless otherwise posted).
Here's an analogy: does the fact there are signs that say "no littering" or "no dumping" mean it's OK to litter or dump wherever there's no sign?
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
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My girlfriend and I had an experience spending the night on a patch between El Portal and the Arch Rock entrance.
Huh????
I've never seen nor heard of horse patrol in that area ever.
There's no horse patrol in that area between El Portal and the Arch Rock entrance.
It's all on vehicles.
Are you sure you're not making this up for more drama?
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
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between El Portal and the Arch Rock entrance.
They've never had horse patrol in this area ever ......
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
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Just give it up Jim.
I work 100 feet from horse patrol .....
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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May 25, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
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As the Duck said, no horse patrol there, no trail for them to ride on, only hyw 140. At least mix in some facts with your "stories"
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c wilmot
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
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Jim- the stock is corralled in the valley. It's seriously unlikely that anyone would ride that far down the road.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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May 25, 2017 - 05:57pm PT
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Maybe the ranger (male or female) decided to ride their horsie outside the Park the night before to go to a party, or to visit a friend (male or female), and stayed overnight, and they were just riding back into the Park in the AM when they went by him.
So it wasn't a regular patrol. You could both be right.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
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Horse Patrol rode all they way down there to risk getting killed on that narrow road just to look for OB campers.
Rolls eyes ......
phylp .... you are dreaming.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
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ps. tell me they don't have horse trailers.
LOL
Yeah, they have horse trailers and tow the horse down to the arch rock and then ride from Arch Rock to El Portal and back up on that narrow road
to risk getting hit by a bus or vehicle just to look for guys like you.
Rolls eyes ......
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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May 25, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
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*
You could both be right.
Nope, Warner is correct.. and somebody else is mistaken.
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plasticmullet
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
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I camped by the river south of the market for months while working for nps to save money for grad school, bailed on the rent for the horrible employee housing in el portal. Was not confronted once, it was quite enjoyable.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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May 25, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
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*
Jim, I'm not saying it didn't happen...I think you are mistaken about the location.
Yes ..i worked for the company, but most of my friends were climbers that did not work for park service or the concessions..... I also lived in the park as a non employee and have my own out of bound camping story ... Is there a thread for out of bounds camping stories?...
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plasticmullet
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
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Sorry, I wasn't doubting your horse encounter, just saying I was lucky to fly under radar.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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May 25, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
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An interesting and thought provoking read. :) Laughing out loud just a little and respectfully.
No yurt this summer. Wonder if you can get busted for sleeping in a kayak?
Cheers and looking forward, lynnie.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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May 26, 2017 - 07:04pm PT
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As a lawyer, I often give this advice: "get over it." I can't believe you have nothing better to do with your time.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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May 26, 2017 - 07:34pm PT
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Nutagain, necessity can be the hallmark of a defense, should the right circumstances occur, e.g. held up by a car accident until the wee hours, already drove through the park to look for legitimate site, could not navigate dangerous curves of Merced at 3am, asleep in driver's seat. This is a genuine situation for some travelers not familiar with Yosemite and its cluster.
A climber, at 11pm, tossing back beers getting ready to put the bag down... not so much.
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