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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 28, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
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Geoffrey Winthrop Young is credited by Royal Robbins for saying the following "It isn't getting to the top that counts. It's the way you do it."
This single quote became the credo of many during the Golden Age in California climbing.
Does anyone know the citation for this quote in Young's writing?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 28, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
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You will likely get an answer from this crowd...few of them climb but most read about it.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2017 - 04:54pm PT
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Hey Jim- Send me your current email address if you would as the last one I have bounced back. scgrossman@msn.com
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2017 - 04:01pm PT
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Quote Bump...
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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Steve - I will look into that quote. I can say that Ullman's "It is not the summit that matters, but the fight for the summit; not the victory, but the game itself." seems to tie into the concept... I have that Ullman book here in Moab but the Winthrop-Young one is in Modesto. I'll check it out next time I'm there!
I have what appears to be a speech outline that Dad did on Climbing Writers pre-1960 here, in which he references Ullman, Muir, Clarence King, Bolton Brown, Miriam Underhill, Bradford Washburn, and others. It appears this was for a literary "festival" at Nick Clinch's home, not sure of the date? Guessing in the 90's...?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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If needed, I can ask his grandson. Who, oddly enough, has almost the same name. He gave a talk at UBC about Vikings, as he's a professor there.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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The way we do it is with Gatoritas.
Note big wall stemware with salted rims.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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May 10, 2017 - 09:37am PT
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PtPP...... wow you guys sure do go deluxe, four star. Harding would be very proud and envious.
I was on another web site, declaring my dislike for chipping and the like... I said "my moma raised me to have some class and to climb with style, and not to chip and rape the stone"
I really should have said....."Royal raised me to have some class and.... "
Because he did.
Thank you Royal for the lessons.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 10, 2017 - 09:54am PT
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When I was a new climber, I read all of the stories of Royal and Warren. The rivalry, the attitudes and so on. I always saw Royal as wearing the white hat, and Warren wearing the black hat. I really did see them as black and white, the hero and the villain.
It is interesting to see how history has played out. While Royal has still maintained his hero status, Warren turned into something of an anti-hero, the kind of person that dirtbags love and respect. I never used to be a dirtbag, but life has a way of happening that you can never imagine, and thirty years later you find yourself looking through the other side of the lens. It's an amusing paradox, for sure.
I never did get the opportunity to meet Warren, but I enjoyed a night at the campfire with Don Lauria, and we spoke of the WOEML chopping a bit. It was the night after the Camp 4 celebration in 1999, and Jon Fox had led the final A4 pitch of Jolly Roger through the night, so that we could get down in time to see the show. We got down all right, but thought the show was up at Tamarack Flat. We got up there, and the place was deserted. Meanwhile the show took place in the Lodge amphitheatre. DUH!
What I remember folks saying afterwards is that all the old guard climbers - like Royal - were received with warm applause. But when Warren Harding took the stage, the place erupted! That always stuck with me.
Cheers, Warren. I bailed from your route last fall. Yet again. Sheesh.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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May 10, 2017 - 10:17am PT
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Yes it is IS good to look back and see things through the lens of time.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 10, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
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Everyone can look back.
The question is, do you see things differently?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 10, 2017 - 02:41pm PT
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The question is, do you see things differently?
Of course you do, particularly if you haven't actually lived those long-ago moments. On the other hand I can recall my feelings about climbing in the early 1950s, the excitement of the initial outings, the aura of adventure and exploration when there were relatively few climbers, the very newness and mystery of the sport in the South where I lived.
But when I read of exploits in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and try to place myself there in my imagination, I know that I'm missing the gestalt of the era and my efforts are inadequate.
I have Mountain Craft (1920), edited by GWY, with several chapters written by him, and I do recall reading some other of his works ten years or so ago. What stands out regarding the putative quote of this thread is his disdain for any sort of artificial climbing, his reluctance to advocate for "pegs" (pitons), and his reliance on his own body and spirit, his vivacity, to overcome technical difficulties. In this regard he possibly channeled the attitudes of the elite members of the very elite Alpine Club of which he was a kind of celebrity.
He lost a leg in WWI, but recovered and continued climbing.
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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May 10, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
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Mighty Hiker, would love to know the date and/or specifics of the literary event. I can ask Fitschen also as it appears he did a presentation as well on climbing writers post 1960's at same time.....
Pete, trust me, Dad was no saint ;) ...he may have had a different overall approach to life (manifested in climbing ethics) than Warren, but they weren't arch enemies. The "rivalry" as depicted in the press and Valley Uprising was hardly as noteworthy as it's been chalked up to be (pun intended).
libations, late nights, and some debauchery were part of all climbing culture back then - it is more a matter of the extent to which that defined each person on a larger life-scale, in my opinion.....
Cheers ;)
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 10, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
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You will likely get an answer from this crowd...few of them climb but most read about it.
Thanks for stopping by to pee in the punchbowl!
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Chris Jones
Social climber
Glen Ellen, CA
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May 10, 2017 - 04:42pm PT
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Tamara: My recollection is that Royal and Joe Fitschen gave this presentation in the UK. It may have been at the Kendal Climber's Festival, or at Terry Gifford's Bretton Hall climbing writing event.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 10, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
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I'm one of the folks who read stuff, and I have his Scrambles Amongst the Alps. I don't recall that remark about "fair means," but I guess it could be there...he certainly would have been against pitons in British rock.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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May 10, 2017 - 05:42pm PT
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libations, late nights, and some debauchery were part of all climbing culture back then - it is more a matter of the extent to which that defined each person on a larger life-scale, in my opinion.....
some things never change.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 10, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
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. . . and I have his Scrambles Amongst the Alps
Whymper, Rich?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 10, 2017 - 11:48pm PT
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"some things never change."
I sure hope not!
Nice to hear from you, Tamara. The night your dad and Tom Frost were talking about the 50th anniversary of Salathe Wall, I really wanted to ask them a question, but never got the chance as so many others had so many questions.
If I recall correctly, Salathe Wall was climbed with something like only 13 bolts.
I know that those guys were smart enough not to haul the first ten pitches we now call Free Blast, but instead hauled straight up the blank wall to the base of the Heart. Nowadays, there are fixed ropes there in between bolted anchors. The wall is pretty blank there, and there are not many places if any for natural piton anchors.
So I wonder:
 did these guys have any rebelays between the ground and the base of the Heart? It is hard to imagine prusiking 800' in one go!
did the rebelays consist of bolts, or natural gear?
if there were bolts, were these included in the original count of 13?
Cheers, eh?
Pete
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2017 - 09:01am PT
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Serious thread drift...
Pete- Royal, Chuck and Tom established the fixed ropes leading down from the Heart recess without placing any bolts so obviously they took a different line than is currently used in order to take advantage of anchor availability. In order to be able to haul they fixed the lines station to station.
The original 13 bolts were all used to connect the crack systems in the middle section of what we now call the Free Blast.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 11, 2017 - 09:12am PT
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. . . and I have his Scrambles Amongst the Alps
Whymper, Rich?
Oopsie. Right you are John.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 11, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
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Hey Steve,
Thanks for answering a question I have wondered about for years. No original bolts beyond Mammoth, eh? Any idea when and by whom the retro belay anchor bolts were added? I wonder how the FA'ists felt about this?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 11, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
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"It isn't getting to the top that counts. It's the way you do it." I wonder how many climbers over the history of the sport have made this comment or variations of it? If GWY did say it – and it’s very likely he did – he said it in a context somewhat different than that of the present day, or even the 1950s.
As a stalwart member of the elite and conservative Alpine Cub he endorsed the club’s attitude toward “gymnastic” climbers, calling them Chimney Sweeps. In his diary in 1955 he wrote: “I find very little contact now with the new ‘Greasy Pole’ school. They are so infernally dull”. Nevertheless, a few weeks later at an Alpine Cub dinner he was introduced to Joe Brown, and wrote: “That attractive phenomenon Joe Brown, the plumber and climber of Kangchenjunga”. (Joe told me several years ago he was a contractor and not a plumber, and didn’t like that characterization). The word “attractive” pops up frequently in Young’s writings with references to young men – he was bisexual.
The first climbing guides in the Late Victorian era offered no ratings of difficulty – adhering to GWY’s philosophy, the feeling being that to do so detracts from the essence of the climb. He wrote: “I held and still hold such lists [difficulty] are pernicious. They can rarely be true for more than a single climber. . . They put a premium on ‘stunting’ and competitive climbing”.
As for pitons and the like, he says: “In ascending a peg is no protection to a leader, although its insertion may tempt him perilously to go beyond what he should.” But then he admits: “A peg is really only ‘sound’, in ascending or traversing, if the rope over it is being ‘played’ by a human being”. He admits that in the Eastern Alps a different tradition was being established.
He rather likes bouldering and describes his introduction to modern balance climbing while watching Eckenstein on his eponymous boulder in Wales, as his friend stood poised on small toeholds on a slabby face, merely touching the rock with his fingertips. Young describes his sense of wonder as he passes his hands between Oscar’s and the rock. (Before then climbers usually ascended slabs while pressing their bodies against the rock, hoping tweed jackets and buttons would work to their advantage.)
So, when Royal quoted GWY we understand the comment in our own terms and perhaps not in Young’s perspective. I will be interested if the source of the statement can be identified, particularly the time period.
You will likely get an answer from this crowd...few of them climb but most read about it
Not many read climbing history beyond Yosemite in the 1950s I suspect. It's unfortunate Kerwin (KLK) has deserted the forum. His professional expertise would be invaluable in these historical threads.
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Blakey
Trad climber
Sierra Vista
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May 12, 2017 - 01:39am PT
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I haven't seen that quote attribute to him. I am currently researching GWY, my club the Northumbrian Mountaineering Club has it's 75 anniversary in a couple of years and we are publishing a book that will celebrate climbing in the County.
From @ 1900 GWY was a key participant and influence here, much of what happened revolved around him, and his coterie of climbing partners and acquaintances. He and they were all remarkable individuals. Young himself was an extremely complex person...... But had a huge influence on British climbing up and into the post war period. An innovative educator he was also involved in bringing 'Outdoor Adventure' into education, and played an important part in establishing Gordonstoun school and the principles of the Duke of Edinburgh's Award scheme which survive to this day.
Later in life he lived a short distance from my village in a 'grace and favour' cottage provided by the Trevelyans.
If I do find it I'll let you know.
Steve
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
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Royal gives Young credit for the quote as "dictum" in a fine biographical piece that he wrote which can easily be found on the frostwork.com website. As much fun as it to go through Young's writing, I am busy trying to layout the Frost biography and need to cut to the chase.
John- I assume that interesting material surrounds the quote in question which is even more reason to find the original citation.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 12, 2017 - 12:16pm PT
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^^^ Please provide a link, Steve. I can't pull it up.
OK, found it. Frostworksclimbing.com
Nothing about the reference. Maybe it will turn up, but GWY was prolific and he wrote and wrote and wrote . . .
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
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Qualitative experiential bump...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 20, 2017 - 06:57pm PT
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I'll be surprised if anyone finds the quote. The resources of the Alpine Club might be useful. The thought is so widely held these days it could have come from anywhere. Looking at the weird bouldering the Brits were doing in the late 1800s (e.g., the upside down ascent on the Y-boulder) it could even have arisen there.
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